S1 Ep1: Filming Homicide with Jean de Segonzac - Cinematographer & Director

[00:00:00] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award-winning television

[00:00:20] show Homicide Life on the Street, with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram.

[00:00:31] On today's episode, we're joined by cinematographer and director Jean-Daiser Gonzé.

[00:00:38] And we discussed the philosophy behind the look of Homicide. Please note that this episode was recorded

[00:00:44] before the very sad news of the death of Andre Brown.

[00:00:47] Welcome everybody to Homicide Life on The Set, with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram.

[00:01:05] Susan, what is your connection to Homicide?

[00:01:08] I was a camera assistant on the show, started as a film loader after working with a couple of the crew members

[00:01:16] on a John Waters film, came in as a film loader, bumped up to the second, started on the same year that John and Dessaganzac started.

[00:01:27] And after the second left and season two, I moved up to be the second for the rest of the run of the show.

[00:01:35] So I was a second assistant camera for most of it.

[00:01:38] And then when we had two cameras, I would bump up to first assistant.

[00:01:41] What is the second assistant camera do?

[00:01:44] In England we would be called Clapper loaders.

[00:01:47] Although we also had a loader on the show, so the second mostly stood by, bang the slate, kept all the camera reports,

[00:01:56] kept inventories of the film, although on the snatch show maybe the film loader was keeping the inventories and would load up all the cards full of equipment,

[00:02:06] kept the equipment close by, make sure the first assistant and the cameraman had the equipment that they needed at the time.

[00:02:14] So lots of running back and forth or then we had a set bag where we had a lot of stuff right there because we moved around so much.

[00:02:21] So it was basically supporting the first assistant and the cameraman making sure they had everything they needed on the set at the time.

[00:02:28] It was actually can be quite a stressful job, especially if you are doing camera reports, especially towards the end of the day and stuff.

[00:02:34] Normally I would keep the camera reports that were on the back of the slate and then when we reloaded that camera report would go with the film to the loading room and the loader would do all that.

[00:02:44] I had been on shows where I did both, where I was the second and I reload the film and come back so it depended on what show you were on.

[00:02:53] It was always a big relief if you had a camera loader and a second assistant.

[00:02:58] So the second could just concentrate on being on the set.

[00:03:01] When I was at university it was a bit of a culture shock of loading a 16 millimeter film magazine for the first time because he had to do it in a dark bag.

[00:03:09] So you have to do it all by touch and the way we trained to do it somebody would have a magazine in front of you with what we call gash stock or gaff stock where it's kind of stock has been used that's kind of the end of a real just to show the other person kind of what they're doing.

[00:03:26] Because it's quite a it is quite an intense thing. It's a real skill because it's very easy to ever so slightly mess it up and the film doesn't kind of register properly in the camera and makes this weird jittery effect which has definitely happened on a few productions not ones I loaded but other productions I'd seen at uni.

[00:03:42] Yeah most of the shows I worked on we had a dark room in the truck yeah that was all taped off so you know you had an actual counter where you could put the film but if you're on location.

[00:03:54] In the middle of nowhere and you had to reload in a field or something we had the black bag the big black bag put your in your arms and everything put everything inside.

[00:04:04] And load it reload and reload the film unload and reload the film inside the black bag but yeah I think most people think oh was there a red light in there like no there's no red light it's in complete darkness so you don't expose the film yeah yeah indeed indeed.

[00:04:19] Chris why don't you tell us how we connected and what your interest was in the show and how we ended up deciding to do the podcast yeah well I'll first of say my connection to homicide is I'm a real homicide enthusiast what I mean by that is I don't enjoy murdering people but I do enjoy the show about investigating murdering people.

[00:04:39] And so yeah I reached out to you earlier in 2023 because I have a project them sort of developing they're sort of in the vein of homicide it's still being developed at this time but one thing that struck me from homicide was not only the quality rising but I was always really interested in the way the show was shot and edited because it has quite a fluid feeling and the editing kind of compliments that fluid feeling really well

[00:05:07] and it's not it's sort of yeah it's sort of kind of it's not particularly jarring it can be in some places but it needs to be but sometimes it just sort of like you know as we will talk with Sean.

[00:05:17] There are some scenes where it's all just in one take or the camera is just fluidly following the conversation it kind of moves over to someone else as they're chastising and then back to the other person and it always has a way of finding who's seen it is and catching the important moments

[00:05:33] and I just wanted to try and understand the logic in the DNA of that camera works and everything quite like it's not handheld like like a Jason Bourne movie where the camera is shaking and it's saying this is handheld homicide kind of had this sort of weird almost steady cam like feel and and I once you know when chatting with Sean he mentioned somebody wants to ask him if who the steady cam operator was on the show

[00:05:59] and the show was completely handheld with no steady cam so I've always been truly fascinated by that so that sort of my connection to homicide.

[00:06:08] Yeah it's interesting that John describes his cinema verite filming style but I think he's unique and it's not shaky cinema verite is really smooth cinema verite and that was his goal you know he really wanted to make it as smooth as possible

[00:06:28] yeah fantastic well Susan tell us a little about who John is and and his connection to the show.

[00:06:36] Well he started his film careers a camera operator and then moving on to work as a cinematographer and director he started shooting and editing local news

[00:06:47] and then moved up to network documentaries and PBS documentaries like Nova American experience National Geographic Explorer frontline American masters in 60 minutes he shot many notable independent films but he was noticed for laws of gravity which caught the attention of producer and director Barry Levinson and writer producer Tom Fontana they brought him a board homicide on the second season because of that smooth cinema verite style.

[00:07:16] So he shot 53 episodes of the show in Baltimore from 1994 to 97 and also the follow up homicide the movie in 2000 but he also directed six episodes of the show so it's interesting that he crossed that line up into directing but he would direct and shoot at the together which also is interesting yeah.

[00:07:40] And since then he worked for the same production company worked directed episodes of us but also Twilight Zone Battlestar Galactica CSI FBI law and order and 52 episodes of law and order SVU among many many other in sort of New York based TV shows many of which were under the dick wolf production label thanks that Susan let's move into the interview John and we'll be back afterwards.

[00:08:10] First of all great to have you with us John we're calling the podcast homicide life on the set and we're hoping to talk to a lot of people different departments but obviously we wanted to talk with you first my first contact and our first idea of doing this.

[00:08:40] And so I was after talking to Chris who is interested in and how the show was shot in developing possibly some projects in England and so of course the look of the show was such a big part of it so that's why we wanted to touch base with you first and talk with you.

[00:09:00] So you want to give us a little bit of background obviously we know that you're you come from documentary films that you worked all over the world and that there was a sort of transition film where you were able to do dramatic a dramatic film using your documentary techniques which was an oh the name escapes me at the moment tell me the thing.

[00:09:24] I was a gravity right laws and gravity I just watch part of it the other day it did you could really see the connection between the way you shot that.

[00:09:32] And what you brought to homicide but which all obviously evolved over time so give us a little background about how you know how how you got your start in the business and how you ended up with homicide.

[00:09:45] I started out while in college I got a job shooting news at the local TV station WCMH did nice and weekends and there was a non union shop so I drive the car I shoot the film I process the film edit the film and put it up on the projector.

[00:10:02] And so this was a terrific way to get a lot of experience shooting and it was almost all hand help.

[00:10:12] And eventually my dream was to do documentaries to do very day documentaries but that didn't really quite work out.

[00:10:23] And there were far and few of the very day style documentaries being produced and I ended up shooting mostly shows like frontline and Nova National Geographic WCMH 57 Street and 60 minutes.

[00:10:39] I thought that would be the ultimate experience 60 minutes it was not but I still didn't do many 60 minutes some with Diane Sawyer which was very pleasant and very fun.

[00:10:49] And but that eventually the video camera came out the beta cam I had to go buy a beta cam and so the interviews the talking heads as we used to call them were when from being at most 10 minutes very expensive a 10 minute load of film is quite expensive it's over $200 at the time.

[00:11:09] But now we had a beta cam and the interviews started to drag out of the three hours.

[00:11:17] And so I got quite fed up with the whole thing and started asking around I just asked look at anybody here of anything I'd like to try to do narrative.

[00:11:27] By that time I had so many lights it's only the filters so obviously I was interested and ready to do more with the camera with the lighting and with the effects.

[00:11:37] And so I put a word out and I got an offer to look at my real so I showed my real it was for a film called Laws of Gravity directed by Nick Gomez.

[00:11:49] And they looked at the real he said this is great and they asked me to shoot the film I was so excited that I dreamed that it was going to have dollies and cranes and all this stuff and they said no no no no no no no no you're going to shoot exactly the way you shot your real.

[00:12:04] It's all going to be handheld and they even had the idea that they wouldn't let me see the scene that I would step upon on the set and they would just play the scene I'd be having to shoot it as if it was a documentary that I'd never seen or heard anything.

[00:12:20] I just waited about that but because it was a low budget film 10 days shoot $40,000 they used all my documentary lighting gear and my aton camera.

[00:12:38] And so to make it work I would shoot a one moving master that would catch you know listening and trying to catch what's going on and following the action and then I would do an opposite master a complimentary master that could cut with the other one.

[00:13:00] And that was it. That's all we would do two takes to two master takes and sometimes we do it only one some things which is just one shot.

[00:13:11] So Nick Gomez became quite famous for that film and he got a job the first season of homicide to direct an episode and of course his calling card was laws of gravity so they're looking at that footage and they think I'm going to second maybe

[00:13:30] we could get this guy to shoot the show and the show was a bit on the cost for the first season was only nine episodes and the second season where I started was only four episodes and it was sort of a way of saying well can you guys really make this work.

[00:13:46] And so I ended up getting the job and and the first director that I work with was Chris Minow English director who had done crime suspect.

[00:14:02] And I showed him a laws of gravity he was very excited and he said oh this is great you know what we do we're going to take a one step further we'll do everything as just a single take no cover.

[00:14:15] You almost got me fired in the first two episodes because that's what his he was attempting to do.

[00:14:22] In the end I just watched those two episodes and were really quite good and they had a they did have several scenes that were all very very nicely figured out and choreographed and to tell the story and end up on the guy who's been the most impacted for the for the button of the scene.

[00:14:43] And so I got a lot of trouble he got a lot of trouble but in the end they worked out terrific after Chris left and then we had John McNaughton from Henry Portrait of Syria color and who I knew from Chicago.

[00:15:01] And so that that episode worked out extremely well but then the penultimate of that first season of course was this was the episode where I've been really upset.

[00:15:12] Robert Williams it was just such an it's such an extraordinary thing to have him on set and and and the kids were particularly fantastic and that show.

[00:15:21] One of whom was Jake Jill and all right yeah he must have been 12 years old.

[00:15:28] There's 12 years old the kid was amazing and there was this little girl who whose name escapes me she was so good.

[00:15:35] So anyway that's how I got to the point of taking my document if not.

[00:15:43] Now there were two styles of documentary being done at the time which was the Maisel Brothers they like to observe and zoom in and focus and zoom back out.

[00:15:57] And I found this stuff sometimes to be a little shaky fantastic films don't get me wrong but I was enamored with a cameraman named Don Lenser who was a terrific cameraman.

[00:16:12] And his stuff was always super smooth very smooth camera work and so I got very excited about that and I worked on how to carry the camera and make it as smooth as possible.

[00:16:24] And to walk in such a way that there would be lumps and bumps and shakes and try to keep the rice and correct.

[00:16:32] And I'm looking at this stuff now and still looks a bit shaky but in general it's pretty smooth.

[00:16:39] So there's one shot in two shots in Sino Evil that really stood out for me.

[00:16:44] You were talking about these continuous takes and there's a brilliant sequence I was just talking to Susan about just before we started to wear.

[00:16:50] Lewis is having a kind of a fight with bow and the bathroom where they're having a sort of debate about whether the guy should be convicted or not.

[00:16:59] And I realized he's all in one take I was watching it casually and then I thought hang on a minute half way through is this one take and it was.

[00:17:05] And also have like mirrors in there and there's so much stuff going on and you know well done to Clark Johnson for hitting his marks because I work with actors sometimes they can be hopeless hitting marks.

[00:17:15] And as other scenes were you like walking down the stairs with a camera I'm like how are you doing that.

[00:17:21] And so smooth well that that particular scene in the bathroom yeah I watched it the other night and I was also supposed to praise myself.

[00:17:28] I don't even do that and I remember we're in the bathroom thing it okay but we need to place the mirror replace it here then we can get this guy and that guy and it is all going to click together.

[00:17:39] And to make this stuff work I would basically learn my lines and figure out where and the cue the cue words that would send me to pan for this guy.

[00:17:52] And then the word that might send me back so I learned that yeah and talk a little bit more about that your transition from from the idea of the verite which was not knowing what was happening next.

[00:18:04] So you were just reacting to then I think the the more homicide technique was like you were just talking about you knew the scripts you knew what was happening so that you would be able to get to the action as it happened not react to it after it happened.

[00:18:20] So talk a little bit about the transition to that idea that I think you you were happier with and more comfortable with than the reactive sort of camera style.

[00:18:34] Well the truth is that as a documentary camera I filmed a lot in Poland and the Soviet Union then places where I did not understand the language and I had I bought an at-tron so the at-tron has an IP so it's just here and you can see with your other eye what's going on to the right and to the left you can watch and you can feel and you can anticipate.

[00:19:00] So I felt like I developed a technique just feeling the blind but who's going to speak next and what's going to be happening what's what's how is this going to go so it's not just just well of course someone suddenly into the room oh I'm going to pan over and find them.

[00:19:19] So I was trying to keep that with homicide that I that I was in the middle of the situation almost like another person in the scene really observing and listening and reacting but of course I had the added the added advantage of having seen the scene played out so I can make a plan.

[00:19:46] Because there were times I remember clearly there were times when we'd have a six-page scene and it would run as a six-page scene and I tried to figure it out I'm going to go from here okay and they all go there and then after four minutes into the scene I couldn't keep track of what I was doing so then we'd say okay forget it let's just start shooting see how it goes and just feel feel feel the vibe.

[00:20:15] Feel where the camera is going to take me like a magnet what are the rules of continuity for that because that must be quite when shooting scene like that and that kind of freestyle must be quite difficult to bring all that into the edit because one thing I love about homicide the camera always manages to find the person who's sort of seen it is and that gets the reaction every time as brilliant well this is something about a homicide that I think most people want no it's there.

[00:20:45] We rarely put down marks I think the only three times where remember actually putting a mark once for yoffing is a very big guy and we kept twice your block the scene and he got very angry and in this business 30 years and it's customary to put down a mark so we did put down a mark but normally there would be no marks that they the everyone would find the ballet and just remember it really.

[00:21:12] And it is an interesting.

[00:21:17] Physical thing to have a camera and be in the midst of actress sometimes we'd have a eight actress who would be in a scene who might speak and you have to find a find a way of describing everything and but so the camera often would go towards somebody the two people talking and go right in between them and then come out on the other side so that means that one.

[00:21:41] And the actor would have to allow the camera to come in would have to back away and then come back in as if they hadn't moved and let the camera through and it's just the camera that's moving it's is the camera and the cameraman and myself and the boot shelter who was the focus polar the two of us would be sliding through and then and behind us would be the the boom operator who's recording the sound.

[00:22:11] So for monitor and we had a transmitter so he could see the shot that I'm doing because you never really know what I was going to be doing I tried to sound like I tried this and this but at one point i'm just going to have to follow so so there be three of us moving around and then often the gaffer Josh spring would also be in the mix with the also boom and a china ball to get a little extra light into.

[00:22:41] The off its face so then we have four people moving around it in a crowd of several actors so so it become like a ballet yes and watching you it very much was that way were you were you just inherently graceful or did you learn.

[00:23:00] So I think that's the reason why you were able to do that and then you know in some of your earlier I mean you really work quite dancerly and also the way you could boom down you would hold the camera and squat all the way to the ground keeping your feet flat and then boom up and then stand up was you know was kind of an amazing movements you were we were able to do where you just graceful as a kid or did you learn that somewhere.

[00:23:28] The kid I wanted to be a jet pilot so I would fly through the house up and down the stairs and the jet goes very smooth so no it's just something I developed almost like a Tai Chi and I just wanted it to be smooth I want to be able to sink down and come back up and go around people and push into somebody was just entered and tell the story that way.

[00:23:54] What kind of equipment you using so I think we had an earlier chat and you said some people approach to about what steady cam who's the steady camera operator you saying there was no study cam on the show.

[00:24:03] So what kind of camera equipment and grip equipment were you kind of using and also have the lights for this sort of movement.

[00:24:10] Okay so as far as the camera we use a 16 millimeter aton I think it was with cook lenses and super speeds and.

[00:24:21] And I had a bag made for the camera because I like to it's a blimp so you can shove the camera into my face and the camera also had an arch that fit on on your shoulder but I didn't like that so I put a flat piece of metal so I could have more control of the camera and then behind or I put the batteries to end and the transmitter to to balance the camera out which is why is the camera on your shoulder to be almost lightweight with no no.

[00:24:50] No no wait at all you get your your elbows into your side and you hang on to the camera and you move the camera with your body.

[00:25:00] I see a lot of guys that they move like this they move their their arms around the body that should move and two handles you had two handles constructed or instead of just the one handle correct yeah I had two handers then I have two or just the one I can't run I think it was too.

[00:25:16] But two I think is a good idea because then you do your zone on one and you have your other and so your whole body is is is controlling the camera and.

[00:25:28] The that is the camera that we use the whole time including when we came back to do a homicide the movie it was the same camera it was absolutely the greatest camera for handheld now nowadays of course we have the air reflects many which is very small and you can set the.

[00:25:46] It's just as well as an atom really and so fantastic stuff and now as far as the lighting then obviously I always or we had to light so we could look in any direction and this doesn't always make for the most elegant lighting but it certainly is a real lighting.

[00:26:10] The people on this side of my start from looking left and look all the way right go around people and then we would light it such a way that any part of the set you could walk any part of the set and get the shot and if some part gets a little dark then we'd have a Josh with his pole and his china ball lit to follow in fact when we'll be in the streets at night.

[00:26:40] We would get a lift and put lights on the lift but the lights normally were bars which we just light up the buildings and we wouldn't light up the actors they I would be because I would be with the actors we backing up and Josh would have his his his china ball and he was responsible for getting it in the right place to me.

[00:27:05] Nice lighting on the faces so we would light the general set the whole outdoor set and then just carry just like you would in a documentary carrying a china ball to light the actors in for the really good looking shows depth to the lighting because I think there's a danger when trying to light for a 360 that everything just becomes the same sort of star almost that there's no dark.

[00:27:34] I mean I noticed like I think Susan mentioned this when we were chasting like the actors are always a bit brighter than the background which is a good thing I noticed on the show that other shows sometimes you know when they're moving around don't have.

[00:27:49] But in the studio set we had big open frames with a light coming straight down so that would be our basic and then then there was designer such way that there are two ways with windows so we could bring lights through there and then we had all the lamps on the table which would be our practicals it just kept it really simple but we also were using fluorescent lights mostly in this water we'd hang them up here no hanging them up.

[00:28:19] We see a lot of complicated lighting going on but in fact you have to be able talking to each other you can have a key light hitting hitting the person on the left it becomes the person who writes backlight and you do the same thing from the other person you have another light so with two lights you can actually light a scene with two people that's very simple.

[00:28:38] And that's exactly what we do we just do a kind of cross lighting and the room itself would be its own fill unless we had to bring in a little special like we sometimes would walk in with a column I light it's just a little brick with a little light inside just to give a little something into the eyes.

[00:28:59] It's very simple and one of the things that was interesting is of course we had the squad room that was the only set and the first season there was no morgue we went to the actual city morgue where we saw the most horrific stuff and it's smell dreadful but we went to the actual city morgue and filmed in there until the second season they find that built us a morgue near the stage.

[00:29:26] And this stage had no moving walls or any kind the only thing that moved were the windows you could move them just to get to control reflections but nothing else could move and it was all ideal and you're showing that can we never you're going to use the space as it exists.

[00:29:46] Talking about reflections the box how did you film in the box how's that okay so in the box yes the there was a good trick we um

[00:29:55] sometimes we want to go 360 around the box but one wall had a big mirror in it and so we'd be limited so then so then we had the idea of removing the mirror putting a clear glass and and we we made miniatures of the objects tables and stuff in the room

[00:30:24] and put it on in the room so it looked like it was the reflection it was just we would go through very quickly and you would feel like it was still a mirror because it would be mirroring some objects that were in the room not a not the main table with people in it of course but the that mirrors had a funny angle.

[00:30:43] So yeah with little tricks like that we're able to do 360's and but then when we're in the observation I'm looking into the box then that that would become a one way piece of glass that we were able to move around and to set the reflections of the people watching

[00:31:05] and so I as a cameraman being in the middle of it I don't want to see myself so we had what we called a noir basically you wear a cloak of black and and I could it and everything and black glasses so you don't reflect.

[00:31:20] The shroud the shroud yeah and didn't it was it was the mirror also a sort of when gimbals are able to tilt both directions so you could sort of get get some of the reflections out of the way when we were in the box.

[00:31:34] Yes it was we're always playing with reflections I still one shot from from the first season I still can't figure out how we did it where we're in the car looking at Melissa Leo and yet she's perfectly reflected in the rear view mirror of the guy's car that with the camera has to be happens to be in

[00:31:55] and I don't remember did we bring another big mirror just reflect her into the because we're doing silly stuff like that all the time because what was fun about this show is that you have 12 hours a day to do it for eight months five days a week so so then we would always be trying to come up with new stuff

[00:32:14] what a fun thing can we come we pull off and I'm like bounce back to what Chris asked about about the editing that at some point I mean the the editors really appreciated the more you could give them so the more sort of you know crossover master shots they didn't worry about crossing the line.

[00:32:33] That they were happy with the more you gave them the happier they were is that true I think so I feel like the first season gave them less and some of that I think it's better because they really had to make a choice and I would I would make them said look I for you I went out of my way and did my masters and then did some coverage.

[00:32:57] To give you guys leeway because they we would deliver 48 minutes in the script for 62 pages so we'd be delivering your cut would be sometimes 10 12 minutes over so you need to be able to cut it down you have a chance to edit and the but then what I felt was that some of the editors would just turn it into a mix salad they would just drop it all

[00:33:25] and I would make them look no I just please try to try to use the most elegant take that last the longest you know look for that first before you start turning it into a choppy choppy soup.

[00:33:44] One thing to be editing the homicide had as a sort of signature is a repetition of the same shot like somebody slamming their hand on the desk to make a point and stuff what those planned or they just what they found in the other no those are found in the end.

[00:33:59] The the the whole point of as far as what Barry 11son told me was that their inspiration was the film Godaris film breathless and in breathless it was it was a handheld film beautifully very very steady handheld many much of it and Jean Paul Ben Mondo being more career as he is or as he was he would do the scene and find himself in different parts of the room by the end of this scene.

[00:34:29] And so they had all this footage where he'd be jumping around the so okay fine we'll just use that so so homicide was sort of the same idea we sometimes would shoot a scene and then we block it and shoot it again so just to give them that fun if they wanted to jump people around and to make these jump cuts but yes a lot of them were were created in editing.

[00:34:51] Yeah yeah some of these double double shots because because I would find myself trying to perfect a shot and repeating it two three times so they would be able to cut from take one to take three and would often do that.

[00:35:07] Yeah yeah there's one that comes to mind where Andre is ripping off something off a wall and he like show it three times I think God did you have to rip it off three times.

[00:35:16] Yes he did. He probably did between the takes and they cut the three together.

[00:35:23] It's a very effective thing I quite liked it. I even imitated it in my first ever short film.

[00:35:31] And it's interesting some of the choices I was watching sniper part one and two last night and there was a hallway scene in the hospital which could have just gone it was about 30 second shot

[00:35:41] and they come off of a hospital counter where they had been looking at some files and they make a turn and they go down another hallway and there's people passing on both sides.

[00:35:50] And I'm watching and I'm like first of all how did John get in there well everything's moving and there's people going multiple directions but also it would have been fine with just that one 30 second take but it was done it was cut a couple different angles including

[00:36:09] there must have been maybe you went up on the ladder but then there was the last shot was a high shot above them coming down the hall after there was a second moving shot with them and I thought that's the interesting choice of you know let's do that a couple different ways instead of just staying with

[00:36:29] you know you coming down the hallway with them once so that that may be part of what you're just talking about that you wanted to give them choices right choice especially with walk and talks that they need to shorten it they have a chance but I also at one point film love with the high white shots so we're doing doing a lot of those.

[00:36:51] At one point I fell in love with the Dutch tilts I was just starting the scene with the camera at an angle and then straightening it out and they was doing that for a couple weeks till they got a phone message from Tom Montana saying it said enough with the fucking Dutch tilts.

[00:37:09] They're quite seductive I quite like them.

[00:37:12] So yeah so then I quit with the Dutch tilt one more Dutch tilt.

[00:37:17] Funny you mentioned that one of the episodes I was watching they were just writing on the board they had finally I guess they had finally solved one of the multiple murders and they're wiping off like four of the red names and rewriting them in black and it was it was close up on the names and then the camera starts going like this.

[00:37:35] And then it cuts back to a close up straight and then it cuts back to a little farther around the rotation right and then it cuts back to a straight then it cuts back to all the way around the rotation that was just so interesting that we're just looking at a couple names but it really sort of drove home the point of the story which was the impact of what had been happening in Baltimore with with the city you know the serial killer the snake or the sniper.

[00:38:03] Well I found that the mood and the detectives is very often balanced and sometimes are confusing and so so at times the camera gets even more frenetic depending on the situation or are quieter it really really depends on the scene as to how you feel it.

[00:38:29] It's listening but it's also feeling I feel this is what's happening how I'm watching it and so disorientation and urgency especially when there was a red ball was something that we would try to empathize with the camera.

[00:38:48] But I was also going to say that the it's interesting that we only hit two sets and and that the the main set is Baltimore itself and it watched a few episodes recently and it is an amazing looking city this is unlike any other city so definitely you might have stuff a little bit like that but and nothing compares to Baltimore the the architecture of the streets.

[00:39:13] The places is just incredible and with such an amazing amazing amazing set and so when we would I don't recall us building anything we would find locations and even locations like if I showed some of those locations to a New York crew they would like would laugh at my face are you kidding because we were into locations where because the homes in Baltimore can be explained as well.

[00:39:42] Some of them are eight feet wide in the rooms of tiny but with no no we're going to work in the man's because it'll be just me and and boots pulling a book is and and we're just going to just skinny guys we're going to go in with this kid guys and we would like from outside or with little tiny lights glue to the wall that are eight powered lights and and got into places just sensation.

[00:40:08] Yeah that's Baltimore Ro House is our Baltimore Ro House is are known for their for their narrowness so so now you know we're in a particularly challenging locations because I've heard stories of like chases that come for you set somebody surrender to the crew once or something and Paris other things well that there was an extraordinary way were we were in an alley.

[00:40:30] We were rehearsing this scene and then we had all of our main actors with a gun sound we had a guy on the floor the the perp on the ground in the alley and we're just unfortunately didn't have the camera in hand and then we heard in the distance stop stop stop and stop him.

[00:40:48] And and the man comes running into the alley and the lands right on top of us and sees us and goes oh shit.

[00:40:58] And he puts the two bags full of Polaroid film two full bags of shopping bags of Polaroid film he puts them down on the ground and just goes up and puts his hands up on on the nearest wall and spreads his legs and is ready to be arrested when they the security guard it comes around the corner.

[00:41:20] Also shocked to see us and doesn't understand but but the cops are man and walks away we were all like quite astonished and a little scared really and when they took him away then we couldn't stop laughing for about two hours it was very disruptive.

[00:41:38] That's brilliant that's for them but there were there was one time I remember we were filming and we had to stop the sun would have been shooting a gun out of a window.

[00:41:49] Yeah into the park they bought a new gun and they were testing it out is that was that what we found out because I was near was that when we were shooting their druid park lake yes we were I think had just either before or come down from shooting up in one of the high rise.

[00:42:03] Old apartment buildings and we were on the street and there was shots going off and we were ducking behind cars.

[00:42:09] And I didn't know that so that was the resolution of it I didn't know that no so they had bought this gun and they were somebody just testing their guns yeah they were there was through them when they were taking turns shooting at into the lake because it was a cool gun they got in them but there was a one hour disruption for us we had to shut down well they figured out who was shooting but that is one part of Baltimore

[00:42:32] that was sometimes a little frightening it was the it is can be a scary place to definitely parts that were that we filmed and there were very very run down and very sad and especially the back alley it says unbelievable mess they were accumulated back there but they would make for a terrific sense free free sense.

[00:42:58] I do remember often especially in Gay Street and those areas where we were especially remember the fire episodes where there were every other more than every other house would be boarded up but when we got there and it was a lot of night shooting people would come out on their porches and chat with us like they were happy at least somebody was paying attention to their neighborhoods and I was always astonished at how welcoming people were when we were shooting.

[00:43:27] People were when you know this hoard descended on their neighborhood out of the blue right but they were often except for one time where apparently we swept a drug corner and that the dealers weren't happy we were there but in general the people in the neighborhoods were very friendly

[00:43:46] and that really struck me do you remember that John yes I do that though I remember once we were in front of a project and and the scene called for one of our detectives or somebody to fire their weapon with their blanks

[00:44:05] and I remember clearly they were all these people not paying any money walking around and suddenly our gunshot went off and we saw like 20 people just throw themselves to the ground. These were not people involved in the filming but the just sound of the gunshot just immediately they hit the ground

[00:44:25] something that they were probably dealing with on a regular basis which was unfortunate.

[00:44:34] Well Sean you know you weren't only the cinematographer on the show at least for the first few seasons but you also directed many episodes of the show

[00:44:42] and obviously sniper part one is your sort of directorial debut on the show what was that light crossing over to being a director?

[00:44:50] Well for me it was very exciting of course I can tell you that when on the first day and they said okay we're in my heart was beating so fast I thought I might fall over which is seen silly but this is just what happened once we started working then they don't fill into place.

[00:45:12] I do remember I had a fancy dolly shot that I was that I had planned out that was doing I was on take five when I suddenly felt a tremendous pain in my left arm and I look over and it's the line producer Jim Finnerty

[00:45:25] and he says every time you do that Sean he cost me $5,000.

[00:45:31] And again my heart standard pounding oh okay go count up so sorry.

[00:45:38] And I do remember that first day I was definitely to be feared it was to be feared.

[00:45:44] I do remember the first day being behind that lunch so I was a little concerned but I was just washed that episode last night I was pretty surprised I didn't remember being it was really good.

[00:45:59] It was just interesting.

[00:46:02] And I can't remember I saw the DP list that is Phil Odecker did you operate any or were you back in video village were you standing next to the camera with a.

[00:46:12] I operated the whole thing you did okay I couldn't remember that was a whole advantage no fill fill was the the DP of note and he did do the lighting I didn't concern myself much with it.

[00:46:26] And but I did operate and that for me as a director is a tremendous advantage because I can be in the middle of the situation and with the camera and then I'll at that then work let's start over let's go again or we got that list let's go once more right away and I'm doing a different shot I'll tell the boots I'm the focus point I would go from here to here.

[00:46:48] And the actors would often ask am I going to be on and I would say it's not your business I wouldn't tell them because this is traditional filmmaking is that an actor is not going to be on camera they're not going to deliver the emotion and the intensity and that was one great advantage.

[00:47:10] Homicide was that the actors were all going to be on and if they weren't I wouldn't tell them they said no you're definitely going to be on and so they don't have to pump it up they would they would never have to be able to to to low ball it you know the rest.

[00:47:26] And I think that adds a lot to the intensity of the show I was going to say what's your recollection of how the actors how how they responded to your all of a sudden being not just behind the lens but also directing them oh never it's never good.

[00:47:44] I think this is the big problem of being a DP and trying to go into directing first of all the producers are not going to trust that you know anything about acting and the actors are not going to trust that the some camera had coming on set is going to know anything about what they're doing in there and they're acting and all this and.

[00:48:04] In fact I remember clearly i was setting up a shot and talking to somebody had the script out and i'm.

[00:48:13] And i'm great wow looks over it me and he goes so.

[00:48:17] He says that idiot actually thinks he's directing so.

[00:48:24] So they'll learn the two things that number one to be a director is you're going to have some humiliating moments which don't happen when you're a DP normally another another thing is going to happen is that the actors are not going to trust a DP coming a director until they learn to trust you until you you can actually show that they know what you're doing and that you are watching what they are doing because that's.

[00:48:53] That's the important part that's the difficult part though when you're operating and you're in the middle of it is all great because then that's a lot of energy for the actors but then sometimes.

[00:49:03] I might miss some some acting.

[00:49:09] But that could be improved because I'm in the middle of all this excitement and.

[00:49:15] I don't I didn't see any a problem with with on homicide all the acting was superb from beginning to end because it was such a terrific group of actors sensational and they would always come to set.

[00:49:31] They're not they knew their lines and you could do a six page scene without anybody flooding and you could look somebody from downstairs all the way upstairs into the place and pick up a conversation there swing on that somebody else doing something and then here comes Gerda.

[00:49:48] We follow him into his office and then someone comes in and start jailing at him. It was not only do that we really superb superb actors well I always wanted to say that because we had this specific group of actors but then what I found extraordinary about Baltimore is that many of the day players were local Baltimore.

[00:50:17] They were all so good so sensational and sometimes feel bad about I saw so much talent.

[00:50:33] And there's not enough work for people with this talent.

[00:50:39] But it was incredible how many people were just brought in right off right out of Baltimore or Washington DC maybe somebody would come from Georgia but mostly local people.

[00:50:53] Pat and Miranda did the casting and of course had so many local contacts from the John Waters films because she was part of the John Waters crew.

[00:51:03] So she really had deep deep deep files right of actors in Baltimore really terrific character people really terrific.

[00:51:12] Right there was one of the fun things about first from Baltimore and the whole crew had been working for John Waters.

[00:51:21] This was a John Waters crew from the grips to the to the electricians, the hair make up clothing at all worked on John Waters film YouTube.

[00:51:37] They really was such a fun group of people.

[00:51:41] What was a day like as a director on homicide and even as a DP you know you mentioned earlier you did 12 hour days and stuff but what was it physically like being on homicide?

[00:51:50] Well the homicide was run by a man named Jim Finoday and he I don't know how he pulled this off I've not seen it on any other show but at 7 am we would say we're in.

[00:52:05] At 7 am when he said we're in every actor who is going to be in the scene was standing there in their clothes in their makeup hair done and the camera was right next to me ready to go.

[00:52:18] The sound man was ready to go we do a curse by 720 we'd be shooting already or 715 sometimes because we often would start with the scene either in this going to be more outside so we could immediately get going.

[00:52:32] And not every show had been on since you have a 7 am call and the first shot is never before 80 hour later so I'm losing a whole hour in the day just right there.

[00:52:44] So that was quite an extraordinary thing.

[00:52:49] I thought that's what it was on every show.

[00:52:54] I was sorely disappointed when we knew we had to be there you know we may it may have said on the call she the 7 am call but we knew we had to be there.

[00:53:04] Well in Los Angeles the quarter of so so we could get all the camera equipment upstairs under the set or wherever by 7 because we'd be working at 7 we wouldn't be putting the camera together at 7 right no but then

[00:53:17] it almost shows that would be a pre call and I don't know that that happened on the side. I know that in Los Angeles now I've been in Los Angeles where they the truck doors do not open until as they say we're in this really aggravating to me so at 7 am the truck doors open and then people can go in and get their stuff.

[00:53:38] So so how much I was around a completely different way and I like to think that the filmmaking is still sort of artisanal a business because I've been on many many many shows and I don't know two that we're on the same way.

[00:53:54] And how many pages a day did you guys have to know?

[00:53:57] Okay this is a maybe Susan you can remind me but I remember the first day we were on this set that I was working and we were just trying to finish up the lighting and they took about an hour and 15 minutes before we finally got it to actually be okay to film.

[00:54:17] And it was quite frightening to me but I remember that day we were supposed to do 16 pages and I don't know if they were trying to break the camels back on the first day I couldn't understand and I was too inexperienced to say don't be ridiculous we're not doing 16 pages just forget it.

[00:54:38] And in the end we did manage to shoot 12 pages so it's a very talky show so if you're not out at night and all this kind of stuff you can certainly count on shooting anyway from 8 to 10 pages a day that is pretty normal.

[00:54:57] Now we did have scenes and I remember one which was a very big invasion of a house so the helicopter involved people on ropes coming down and crashing through windows that day was a page and a half 12 hour day a page and a half that was unusual.

[00:55:19] But we could move very very quickly. I actually have some call sheets I saved because I had to save some of them for the union and I'm looking at you know eight eight pages is pretty standard so yeah 16 16 page day was that on scene a weevil I think it was the very first episode this is what I remember because I don't have a great memory but I remember

[00:55:45] I think in conflict with the first idea about it and what I can say is no wonder the director wants to do everything just in one continuous take as the best way to fill 16 pages right right but you can go and figure it out.

[00:56:00] But also I think what's interesting is that to do a one take scene it takes a bit of choreography and and if you watch some of the scenes it's very clear that this guy's got a line this guy crosses through the line which brings us to this guy who has a line.

[00:56:21] And then he steps out to grab a coffee as saying his line and the somebody is already leaning against the table they got their line then you swing to somebody else we always create a kind of a choreography to to accommodate this kind of a dance really to accommodate all the lines and the people and also to keep it from being static because you could have a conversation with four people just stand there and talk or they or they could be moving forward.

[00:56:51] And the actors were very good at finding why they might move around doing this so they're picking up that.

[00:57:00] So back to the typical day do you feel like Jim really sort of whipped us into staying on track?

[00:57:08] He'd come over to me and tap his watch and have a conscience.

[00:57:15] At the end of one season he did run out of the office and grabbed my hand and shook it really hard and say you saved us $1 million.

[00:57:27] And then he said we saved the season because we did end up with eight hour days and ten hour days it did happen sometimes the crew wasn't happy I got surrounded a couple times by the grips going and he slowed down buddy you know we have more to just to pay.

[00:57:45] It would be a bit of bad but I felt that what's the best for the actors is to move fast so they don't get bored and they don't go back to their trailer and get comatose.

[00:57:56] They got to keep it exciting gotta keep it fun and fast so we were able to to to complete our days in their reasonable fashion.

[00:58:07] And then nice thing about the Baltimore was that most of the crew lived nearby like when I live in New York when I work in New York money of the crew come in an hour an hour and a half commute there and back.

[00:58:20] And then they have the 12 to 14 hour day and you call lunch and you see people just look around like dogs and just drop to the ground and go to sleep.

[00:58:29] And we didn't have any of that and I'm on the side of the everybody lives just right there in fact we finished shooting with the whole crew would end up in the bar across the street.

[00:58:39] It was very complete collegial.

[00:58:43] Really first the waterfront and then the Cooperst tavern.

[00:58:48] Right, right.

[00:58:49] Yeah and you had an apartment just a few blocks away right you had an apartment in town in Phil's point.

[00:58:54] Right I I had to walk to work just a few blocks away.

[00:58:57] Yeah and that's true.

[00:58:59] I lived outside of town in the county but it still only took me a half an hour to get down to the set so even though okay I'll give you so maybe we did have an eight or ten hour day.

[00:59:09] I don't remember that but we did.

[00:59:13] But still you know on the general it's you know it's a 12 hour day and even though you lived close by and you know and you didn't have a big commute was a physical job for everybody.

[00:59:23] But if you're you're the artist you've got the camera in your hand and you're doing this sort of amazing physicality of movement all day long every day.

[00:59:33] How did you keep the stamina? I mean how did you keep that together?

[00:59:37] Well I don't I like to work so I don't think I had a problem.

[00:59:43] I did I did feel every year that you'd start with so much enthusiasm by February getting a little down like will this ever end and then then then your enthusiasm builds as you come to the end of the season.

[00:59:59] But I did the developer because we're doing a 12 hour hand held every day. I did develop an enormous bruise on my shoulder and I tried to figure out how to get that pain away.

[01:00:15] I built a brace to try to get the camera off my shoulder and it made for a lumpier camera work so yes I put a...

[01:00:26] We had a little pad didn't we have a shoulder pad that we stuck under the shoe?

[01:00:31] I did put it under my t-shirt. Where's the pad?

[01:00:34] Yes it was on the pad.

[01:00:36] It was a piece of foam that I put under my t-shirt.

[01:00:39] That was the only thing the main thing. I mean I do remember days where the day was over and then I'd be going with a director to dinner and just be a soggy sweaty mess.

[01:00:53] I was a little embarrassed but it was physical.

[01:00:58] It was good.

[01:01:00] Yeah one very wide question.

[01:01:03] Are there any particular episodes, characters, stories or instances that will stand out for you on the show?

[01:01:09] There were so many.

[01:01:12] The one I really enjoyed was there was an episode called The Hat, the Peter Matic directed with Lily Tomlin.

[01:01:21] Oh yes.

[01:01:23] And Peter Matic is such a lovely guy to have him as a director that it was great and then Lily Tom was just delightful.

[01:01:32] And she was terrific in that episode.

[01:01:35] So I remember that as a real highlight.

[01:01:38] And of course the one with Robin Williams was so great to be able to work with him.

[01:01:44] And at one point Richard Dreyfus came to visit him on set. That was very exciting.

[01:01:52] But we had so many terrific guest actors.

[01:01:56] There was one I really enjoyed working on that Barry Levison directed called The Gasman with Bruno Kirby and Richard Edson.

[01:02:05] It was just fantastic.

[01:02:08] I mean a great experience.

[01:02:10] But I remember we were shooting that episode.

[01:02:13] It was so cold, so freezing cold.

[01:02:19] It was fun to be out on that set.

[01:02:24] But we were often in terrible conditions, terrible weather.

[01:02:28] And I remember one time the AD, Jatobias had thought that there was going to be a terrible storm.

[01:02:35] And so we moved everything indoors.

[01:02:38] And on that day it was a beautiful blue sky with fluffy clouds.

[01:02:42] And so Jim Ferry said that's it.

[01:02:45] We're not ever going to cover for weather ever again.

[01:02:49] And we found that filming in just a terrible condition.

[01:02:54] Like pouring rain, one soon rain and we'd be in the middle of it.

[01:02:58] But that's real life isn't it?

[01:03:01] And it's free.

[01:03:03] So we'd be out in blizzards, and rain, and freezing weather.

[01:03:08] The snow was real when you watch some shows like fake snow or digital snow was never fake snow on homicide.

[01:03:16] We were out there.

[01:03:18] And a couple things.

[01:03:20] Speaking of the Lily Tomlin episode, there were scenes where they were transporting her from one, I don't know if it was from one jail to whatever they were transporting for.

[01:03:29] And you couldn't be in the backseat and they cut one of the Cavaliers in half.

[01:03:34] Do you remember that?

[01:03:36] Oh yes, absolutely.

[01:03:37] So that you could shoot her without being in the backseat?

[01:03:40] Right, right.

[01:03:41] So the interesting thing when I started on homicide, the camera was always in the backseat.

[01:03:47] I had a piece of plastic that you could slide on made out of silicone so it could fly from one side to the other.

[01:03:55] And I was in the backseat.

[01:03:57] And I found this little annoying.

[01:03:59] So then I said, well, because I used to do it in documented, I can just sit on the window sill and have the camera in my lap.

[01:04:06] And we can go down the street and I can get some off shots.

[01:04:09] And we actually did that.

[01:04:11] This would be absolutely illegal today.

[01:04:13] It would be not allowed.

[01:04:16] I think it was illegal then.

[01:04:18] So we'd actually go down the street and I'd be in the window and then on the driver side, I'd be in the window.

[01:04:23] I'd be driving and I'd be in the window.

[01:04:26] But then Jim said, well, we need to build something.

[01:04:30] So we had the grips built a platform on the wheels.

[01:04:35] And so they built a box that attached to the door that I could sit in.

[01:04:43] And so it was really a Jerry rigged operation.

[01:04:46] But then yes, we wanted to be able to get Lily Tomas straight on so that the grips they built a trailer.

[01:04:56] They cut the car in half to get rid of the motor and then build a box around that.

[01:05:03] So we could have the license side of the box and sound baffling.

[01:05:09] And they took the window out so it could be right over the driver's wheel and look at all three of them straight on.

[01:05:20] Because we never used a green screen or anything like that.

[01:05:23] We were going down a major highway.

[01:05:25] So I was watching that episode recently.

[01:05:28] I couldn't believe there are trucks warring by people passing.

[01:05:32] It didn't look safe at all.

[01:05:34] And Lily Tomas in the back seat doing this most amazing dialogue and seeing this.

[01:05:42] And there was quite a bit of driving in that episode as they recall.

[01:05:45] Because they go all the way to Pennsylvania to pick her up to bring her back to Baltimore.

[01:05:49] And so there was quite a bit of driving.

[01:05:52] And this completed Jerry rigged.

[01:05:55] Jim didn't think much of that box that they made for me.

[01:05:59] He thought it was just terrible.

[01:06:01] But it was perfectly usable and worked great.

[01:06:05] And then I think on the gas man, was it on the gas man where the grips constructed on the tow trailer they constructed the track that went all the way around.

[01:06:21] I don't think maybe 270 around the front and sides of the car for your butt dolly.

[01:06:27] And so you're on the butt dolly on a platform that's been built around the car and it's being towed down the street as you are moving back and forth on the butt dolly with the camera on your shoulder.

[01:06:41] Right, right. That's correct.

[01:06:45] That's why when you see that scene, there's a scene where they're driving through a park.

[01:06:52] So it's not actually a real road.

[01:06:54] They're following a...

[01:06:57] Browers wife Amy Browers.

[01:07:01] They're following her.

[01:07:03] And so we had this whole crazy contraption and I was able to move from one side and around to the other window.

[01:07:13] And it actually was like 180.

[01:07:18] The grips invented a system of what we call the butt dolly.

[01:07:25] It was a head skateboard wheels at a 90 degree angle and they would bend pipe into circles or into turns and we would attach them together.

[01:07:35] And so I'd be able to sit on this and then pull myself along with my legs being hand held.

[01:07:40] So often we had scenes where we're going around the interrogation table with the circle of pipe and butt dolly and we'd go tronning around.

[01:07:51] Or sometimes remember we did a scene in a school with a teacher and we could put the butt dolly down and then make a turn and go around.

[01:08:02] And then there was another turn.

[01:08:05] Could you make any configuration that you wanted?

[01:08:09] Can I throw a question to both of you?

[01:08:12] Susan, you obviously worked with Sean.

[01:08:15] How did you both sort of come to work with each other and what was it like working together on Hummus?

[01:08:20] I had been out of the business for a few years and got back in the business on the movie Getty's Burg.

[01:08:26] It was the first thing I did when I moved back to Baltimore and then that was through my LA context.

[01:08:34] But then somehow, I don't know, I guess because people knew I was in town.

[01:08:40] I guess I made a couple of phone calls that people went to college with.

[01:08:43] I ended up one serial mom with boots who became the first assistant on homicide.

[01:08:50] The boots and Tom Lapin was the second AC.

[01:08:53] And then I was the loader on serial mom.

[01:08:56] And then they asked me if I wanted to come on to homicide.

[01:09:00] So the first season, or at least the, I think it was the first season, John.

[01:09:03] I was with you because I also was not on the first season.

[01:09:07] I was on started on the second season.

[01:09:11] It was boots and Tom Lapin was the second and I was the loader.

[01:09:14] And then Tom left and I bumped up into the second assistant position.

[01:09:19] And we brought in, I guess, earlier, I was Dave earlier who we brought in as a loader at some point.

[01:09:25] First of all, I had been used to working with a handheld cameraman in LA, John Alonzo,

[01:09:30] who handheld 35 millimeter camera with panoflexes with a thousand millimeter.

[01:09:35] I mean, with a thousand foot magazine and a zoom on the front.

[01:09:40] So, and I had developed what are those called the cysts in your wrist because it was my job as the second.

[01:09:49] So the first could have his hands free to grab the camera off his shoulder and hold it with my wrist bent back.

[01:09:56] So I was very, very happy to be on the show with a camera that was as portable and beautiful and easy to work with as the aton.

[01:10:06] Easy to load, easy for us to much less that equipment wasn't as heavy.

[01:10:13] Although we had a lot of equipment for sure.

[01:10:16] But John was delightful.

[01:10:18] It was a delightful show to work on.

[01:10:21] John was just always like he is today.

[01:10:23] He's always happy.

[01:10:25] He was always calm.

[01:10:26] I literally, I mean, you may remember if you got mad at some point, John, but I don't remember you ever being mad.

[01:10:33] Boots was also a very low key guy and was an amazing focus puller.

[01:10:40] It was a terrific, absolutely terrific group of people.

[01:10:44] And John was just amazing to watch his ballet skills in how he danced around on the set.

[01:10:56] It was amazing.

[01:10:57] It was a tough show because we moved a lot.

[01:11:00] We had to move fast.

[01:11:02] We did have Jim Finnerty tapping on his watch all day long, like moving, get moving.

[01:11:07] But John, it was a real pleasure.

[01:11:11] I was on it almost six years.

[01:11:13] I left early on the last season I was there but yeah, it was a pleasure.

[01:11:18] Yeah, so I'd like to say it was a very joyful set.

[01:11:22] Sometimes on the point of ecstatic set.

[01:11:26] And I do remember there are times when things got a little difficult and I would scream, okay, I would call out for a Scream Therapy.

[01:11:36] Remember that?

[01:11:37] I'm three.

[01:11:38] Everyone's scream as loud as you can.

[01:11:40] You have the whole crew and all the actors shrieking as loud as they could.

[01:11:44] And it's just to shake it off because it can get tense.

[01:11:48] There were moments where there would be a couple of muscles between the director and the actors or the actors and the writers.

[01:11:57] But as a DP when this happened, I was just sitting down and having that.

[01:12:03] But it was pretty rare that there would be any trouble.

[01:12:09] Yeah, that Scream Therapy sounds good.

[01:12:11] It really works.

[01:12:12] Definitely works.

[01:12:13] Do you still do that?

[01:12:15] No.

[01:12:17] No, I want to do it. I'm serious now.

[01:12:19] It's terrible.

[01:12:20] There's no fun.

[01:12:22] No, I'm levity.

[01:12:23] One technical question before we sort of go into our last sort of area.

[01:12:28] Camera technology has changed a lot and obviously mentioned the Ari Mini I think earlier.

[01:12:34] And I just recently watched this film called The Creator where they shot it on a Sony FX3 which is like a...

[01:12:40] It's almost like a DSLR type camera and that's now on a big cinema film.

[01:12:44] And it looked beautiful by the way.

[01:12:46] And I was wondering now with that new technology and obviously camera is being more sensitive than they were shooting on 16 millimeter.

[01:12:53] If somebody was to do homicide, the next generation, whatever you call it, what would you use to kind of achieve a look that kind of was still in that style?

[01:13:06] Would you use anything different?

[01:13:08] Would you go back to film or what would you do?

[01:13:10] I would never go back to film.

[01:13:13] A film is awful stuff.

[01:13:15] It's ecologically disaster.

[01:13:18] And I find that the video cameras today are absolutely astonishing.

[01:13:23] I mean, I hated the video in the beginning because it looked terrible but eventually now today it's just amazing what the cameras can do.

[01:13:32] I see no reason.

[01:13:34] I would probably use the Mini or the Sony that if somebody said, no we want much smaller, much more portable cameras.

[01:13:45] The way is doing it, the difficulty is the focus.

[01:13:48] It's how to attach proper focus to these cameras and also be able to control the F stuff.

[01:13:57] On the homicide, I'd be controlling my own, I would be controlling the F stuff.

[01:14:03] We'd be outside and we were running into a house and I would slowly open it.

[01:14:08] Open up the F stuff from an 8 to all the way to a 2-2.

[01:14:15] So doing this kind of show, I think you do want to have a control over those two things, focus and explore.

[01:14:25] I think that's something most people don't understand about film.

[01:14:29] And obviously also digital filmmaking because there's always going to be a lag in the camera refocusing is that there's a person focusing the lens who's not looking through the lens, which is really a highly specialized skill that I think a lot of people can't do and the people that do it are amazing.

[01:14:53] It's a hard concept for people to understand. What do you mean you're focusing and you're not looking through the camera?

[01:14:57] Well all you're doing all day long is judging distances, all day long is the camera and even more challenging in a situation where the camera is never on sticks, it's never on a dolly.

[01:15:08] And John is always moving to have a camera system to keep up with that focus pulling is amazing.

[01:15:16] Right, that was especially an important sense of what often not tell the guy what I'm doing.

[01:15:23] You had to keep up with me and watch what's happening and the booths were very good at that.

[01:15:29] Yeah, I think we both all, well the three of us think this as we've been rewatching episodes certainly we loved it when it came out initially.

[01:15:39] But I know it struck me when I started rewatching them. It's not dated. I mean maybe a hairstyle is dated or a jacket with too big of shoulder pads is dated, but the show itself, the way it looks, the way it sounds, the social issues that were attacked in it, the acting, I mean it is completely current.

[01:16:02] 30 years after it was started, you know production started. Why do you think that is John? I think a lot of it has to do with the look of it because you were way ahead of your time as far as broadcast filmmaking and the way broadcast television at the time did not look like homicide.

[01:16:23] Well, I think Barry Levinson and Tom Fontaine were there time to say they're the ones who really wanted this kind of look and we're just too lucky to be involved.

[01:16:34] I think I had the same impression I was looking at this and going this is not dated. I look at so much stuff that's a 10 years old and it already looks silly.

[01:16:44] And somehow this still works even though a bunch of one point is doing a whole so liquid about how there's going to be 200 channels including a doggy channel.

[01:16:54] That's definitely something 30 years ago that was coming up and yet still I just felt I was in the moment in the time.

[01:17:06] I think it would be very watchable today and just as exciting and just as thrilling as when a first came out.

[01:17:16] Yeah, very much so I think there are plans of foot to try and get it digitally streaming some surprise that doesn't. I've got it on DVD.

[01:17:24] You can watch it on YouTube a little bit but yeah I've got it mainly on DVD.

[01:17:30] Right, there's been some some comuffal about rights. I don't know who over what Tom would to be able to tell you.

[01:17:40] I don't know. There's also a tremendous amount of music so I don't know if that is a problem or not that they bought the music only for a specific cent of time but they had terrific, terrific music.

[01:17:53] Absolutely terrific. It was really struck I was watching was a called full moon when we shot at that sleazy motel out out on 140 somebody had been shot in the motel room and we went from motel room to motel room you know interviewing they were interviewing people that had been there but the music in that was so beautiful in that

[01:18:13] atmospheric and there was a lot of neon lighting and very colorful lighting in the motel rooms and the bars. I think they went into a bar nearby beautiful stuff and really striking the music.

[01:18:25] That was Larry Williams and Leslie Libman they were the directors. It's terrific, terrific people and they were definitely out there and also pushing like I remember some directors would push for no less lighting, less less less.

[01:18:42] Libman era was always trying to get me to get rid of the fill light completely. So yeah everyone was trying to push the envelope a little bit.

[01:18:53] Well John, before we wrap up are there any do you have any sort of final thoughts or memories that are important to you that you'd like to share that we haven't touched upon today?

[01:19:04] Well you asked me how well as far as the actors and the acting I think I'm going to show like homicide because all the players are so excellent.

[01:19:18] It was really just boiled down to you could take your time slower faster more urgent.

[01:19:26] Can you help me out if we block it this way can you help me out so then I can do this with the camera and they were all completely interested in doing that and ready to play along.

[01:19:40] And I've been on other sets where I try to get an actor to help me out so I can get this move to work out. They said well what is this about? Is it about the camera or is it about my performance?

[01:19:51] There was never any of that on the homicide everybody was completely into how can we make this dance work together.

[01:20:00] It was because it was really personally I think it was a lot of fun.

[01:20:04] It was a lot of fun absolutely great bit of work you guys both did that as brilliant show.

[01:20:08] Thank you well John I suppose one other question because you are still directing today. You've worked on an awful lot of shows from law and order.

[01:20:17] I think law and order as for you FBI and various other things. I mean is there anything you want to say about what you're working on beyond homicide?

[01:20:27] Well I always say homicide was like a highlight of my career then the second equal highlight was working on us.

[01:20:35] And then working on the Battlestar Galactic was also a tremendous show that writers were so brilliant and the actors were all deeply committed.

[01:20:49] As far as they were concerned it was Shakespeare every day.

[01:20:53] And so that really is exciting to work with groups like that.

[01:21:00] Many other shows there's a little bit more difficult that a lot of waiting around and it's a bit painful but I know I'm very lucky to be working.

[01:21:12] I don't travel anymore so I just work on the shows. The Dick Wolf shows that are here in New York which are five.

[01:21:20] So that's very lucky for me that I have work here in the city. I worked with Glenn Closa on damages and that was also a very well written show.

[01:21:31] And the same writers I got to work with them was on a show called Brotherhood.

[01:21:39] What's it Brotherhood? No bloodline. Brotherhood was also another very good film with Jason Isaacs.

[01:21:46] Anyway, it is interesting the whole thing with dealing with actors.

[01:21:56] For instance I got a chance to work with William Hertz, only seven days shooting on damages but he wanted to rehearse a long time and it was created difficulties.

[01:22:10] And then on the other hand I worked with Harriet Kitell on a show and he refused to say the words unless we were rolling.

[01:22:19] So we would be blocking the scene and she said, okay well when I say that I'll come to here.

[01:22:25] And then I had to show the crew but he still didn't want to say the words until we were filming so we had it assistant.

[01:22:32] Read the words as he moved through the space.

[01:22:36] I love it.

[01:22:37] So I was always wondering if I could just get those two together what would happen?

[01:22:42] That's really two ends of the spectrum right?

[01:22:44] Two completely different ends of the spectrum.

[01:22:47] I'm amazed that I just love actors.

[01:22:51] What they do is just sensation.

[01:22:55] And the excitement for it, for me going from documentaries to a show like homicide was to film these scenes and then see it put together, cut together and it actually works.

[01:23:10] It's such an exciting experience.

[01:23:13] So a question is popped into my head.

[01:23:15] We haven't really talked about the actors of homicide and we've lost a few like Richard Bells of this year.

[01:23:20] We've had Ned Betty, John Palito, Yathat Koto.

[01:23:25] I mean what would these people like?

[01:23:28] I mean you know such great cast.

[01:23:30] Well I'd love to all of them.

[01:23:32] Some of them were unhappy and I have no idea why.

[01:23:38] And they seem to have problems with the producers.

[01:23:45] And I have no idea what where they came from because the writing was great, the hours were fantastic.

[01:23:54] The whole thing was a great hood.

[01:23:58] But I found them all to be so interesting and thoughtful.

[01:24:09] And well-pair, being able to work with someone like Ned Betty was just incredible.

[01:24:17] And my favorite course was John Palito.

[01:24:20] He didn't last very long on the show.

[01:24:23] This is a perfect guy.

[01:24:25] He was fantastic.

[01:24:27] Actually, weirdly one of my favorite episodes, the final episode is moving.

[01:24:31] But they've killed him off because of suicide and this is funeral and stuff.

[01:24:36] And it's a very moving episode.

[01:24:38] Yeah, those terrific episodes by Whitney Ransick was the director.

[01:24:42] And he was a very young director.

[01:24:45] And he had a rough time with it.

[01:24:47] I think at one point Ned Betty said, I have grandchildren all the new.

[01:24:51] And Vellzer said, hey watch out for the training wheels.

[01:24:57] They can be a director and having to deal with actors can be rough.

[01:25:03] But with the assistant's terrific director, I needed a tremendous job as one of the best episodes.

[01:25:10] Definitely in the top 10.

[01:25:12] He had a bit of a rough time but it turned out great.

[01:25:18] I'm speaking about the cast.

[01:25:20] Chris and I talked about this a little bit.

[01:25:22] At the time, and even still now, one of the most diverse casts on a prime time network show,

[01:25:30] certainly probably the most diverse cast then 30 years ago.

[01:25:34] And still would be up in the top for diversity.

[01:25:39] Not just black and white actors but also women playing unusual roles.

[01:25:46] But back to the black actors, there were so much movement and so many challenges with lighting.

[01:25:54] One of the things that strikes me, I can watch a show now where I feel like the cameraman doesn't know how to light black actors.

[01:26:03] But when I watch homicide, I never think that.

[01:26:06] It just looks great and there's never that sort of feeling like the black actors were forgotten or they didn't know they needed to put

[01:26:14] a little extra bounce here or there.

[01:26:16] But the fact that we were moving all the time and still everybody looked great.

[01:26:22] That really struck me when I first started rewatching all the episodes.

[01:26:26] It is amazing how well it looks.

[01:26:29] It's given that it was 16mm and I have it on DVD, it still looks quite good.

[01:26:36] Yes, when it comes to dark, complex people, you often need some large source to reflect on the skin.

[01:26:48] And that's why I believe we were walking around with a keynote flows sometimes.

[01:26:54] So Joshua had not the china ball but for Yattes sometimes a whole big keynote flow to try to get it stuck, which lacked on him.

[01:27:05] The outfit I think was absolutely one of my favorites.

[01:27:09] It was such an amazing, amazing actor.

[01:27:13] Yes, we miss them.

[01:27:15] Yeah, it was sad to hear it when he died.

[01:27:18] That was the third show I had worked with him on.

[01:27:21] I had worked with him on a feature film and then a TV movie before I came to homicide.

[01:27:27] And when I walked on the set, he'd like lit up.

[01:27:30] He'd be like, hey, good to see it was so sweet for something you think the actors.

[01:27:35] They see so many crude people. Why would they remember anybody?

[01:27:39] I mean maybe I stood out because I was a woman on the camera crew.

[01:27:43] But he was terrific.

[01:27:45] And I remember when I was working on Star Chamber, which was the first film I worked with him on,

[01:27:51] at the time standing off to the set after I hit the slate and thinking, what is that guy doing?

[01:27:58] I didn't think he knew what he was doing.

[01:28:01] And when I saw the film, I was blown away.

[01:28:04] I was like, he knew exactly what he was doing.

[01:28:07] He knew exactly what to do when the camera was on his face super close up.

[01:28:13] He was just terrific in that role.

[01:28:16] And I think by the time you got to homicide, even better, I agree with you.

[01:28:22] I thought I'd really, really think he's terrific.

[01:28:26] And even more somehow, terrific, it seemed the performance came across even more on film than it did standing watching him in person.

[01:28:36] So he knew how to work the camera.

[01:28:38] Well that was a way.

[01:28:40] I had forgotten all about homicide the book and the description of Drew Dello's character.

[01:28:48] It's very much with Yafat towards playing.

[01:28:52] Yeah.

[01:28:53] I thought that was quite interesting.

[01:28:56] Oh, interesting.

[01:28:57] The real Drew Dello wasn't he the SWAT commander in the show or something?

[01:29:01] Yes, he was.

[01:29:03] You see him running around.

[01:29:05] Yeah, Gary Dedario was our tech advisor and then he ended up being the SWAT commander on screen.

[01:29:13] Yeah, he gave him the lines and everything.

[01:29:16] The first thing we did was the homicide, the movie where they got everybody back together.

[01:29:23] That's every character.

[01:29:25] I was pretty good.

[01:29:26] It was very fun to have everyone reunited for a short time.

[01:29:33] Yeah, no, it was a good movie.

[01:29:34] I really, really enjoyed it.

[01:29:36] And I think, you know, about the repetition there is a few bits and pieces where they do the classic repetition charts.

[01:29:42] The homicide trademark, because I kind of call it.

[01:29:45] It was great.

[01:29:46] It was very moving in places actually and yeah, very good.

[01:29:50] Yeah, they did some rad attack editing to Hot House.

[01:29:55] But again, the use of music.

[01:29:58] Yeah, definitely.

[01:30:00] I think that was a bit unusual.

[01:30:02] I don't see that much in the initial.

[01:30:05] You know, the music takes over and it becomes a montage.

[01:30:08] Yeah, it's very rare now, very rare.

[01:30:10] I think it's so well, because some shows they turn into like rocky four or something.

[01:30:14] If you're not careful.

[01:30:16] It could have been really careful of montage.

[01:30:19] Like those Dutch tilts.

[01:30:20] They're very attractive, but you've got to be careful with it.

[01:30:23] A little ghost so far.

[01:30:26] Yeah.

[01:30:27] Oh, that's brilliant.

[01:30:30] Well, I think we've done really well.

[01:30:33] Is there anything else Susan Lorscheon do you want to add before we sort of wrap up?

[01:30:38] No, I was thinking about early on when Jean talked about the weather.

[01:30:43] I was watching Sniper last night and it was like you could tell we were shooting in a full-on downpour.

[01:30:48] Yes.

[01:30:49] I'm like sort of shaking my head and remembering that clear camera cover we had made for the cameras.

[01:30:59] So everybody could see what the footage was.

[01:31:02] You know, boots could see through the plastic to the lens markings.

[01:31:08] But I also remember that camera cover being completely covered with ice when we were shooting in an ice storm one night on a off of Patterson Park.

[01:31:19] But also Jean you mentioned never when Jay said or Jim Fenderty said we never have a cover set again.

[01:31:28] But on the gas man episode I guess boots had to take off for a week or a couple days.

[01:31:35] And I had to bump up the first assistant which was kind of terrifying but driving to work that morning down Hartford Road.

[01:31:42] And I went past a bank that had you know how banks have those temperature signs up and it said minus five degrees.

[01:31:50] And I'm thinking I'm going to have to go pull focus.

[01:31:54] You know take my you know my gloves off you know the load the camera and pull focus when it's below zero beautiful sunny day but ridiculously cold and we were outside all day long that day.

[01:32:11] So yeah it really was rain or sleet nor hail or anything we were out in snow.

[01:32:19] We remember on that same show you're talking about the gas man we were out at night on top of the lighthouse that's in the middle of the harbor.

[01:32:31] And with Bruno Kirby and Richard etson.

[01:32:37] And it was so cold that the boots would focus and it would be out of focus.

[01:32:43] It's not in focus and he measured no it's correct it's not in focus.

[01:32:49] So what had happened it was so cold that the metal had been trenched and so to he had to recalibrate the lenses to focus correctly.

[01:33:01] And he said no this is where it's supposed to be and I go no it's here look here and it would be off by two little microbes.

[01:33:11] It makes a difference.

[01:33:13] And it started snowing when we were when we were shooting that lighthouse scene it started snowing and I almost didn't get home that day.

[01:33:20] And now those two actors were barely had any clothes on.

[01:33:26] Right.

[01:33:27] And Kirby they were all shorts.

[01:33:30] It's basically most of the minus ten degrees.

[01:33:34] Yeah do sometimes feel sorry for actors in those situations because they're going to pretend it's all great nor and freezing the belt.

[01:33:41] Yeah.

[01:33:43] And one random question for you both.

[01:33:46] All the crabs as good as they say they are in Baltimore.

[01:33:50] I don't know.

[01:33:52] Sean is not being not being a Baltimoreian did you did you were you a fan of steam crabs?

[01:33:58] I very much so and also the deep fried chicken livers that would sometimes cut us.

[01:34:06] I'm not looking up to say that the Josh show every time we went we would go to East Baltimore or West Baltimore.

[01:34:13] There'd be a little shop on the corner you know like a little liquor store slash convenience store that like unless you worked on homicide you would never go in it.

[01:34:21] Like we just everywhere we went everybody was nice to us so it was like not scary to go in these places and the grips and lectures and would go get a bag.

[01:34:31] Fried chicken livers and gizzards it was gizzards and livers right John yeah.

[01:34:36] So they'd come out with this greasy bag.

[01:34:38] What is a gizzard forgive my ignorance.

[01:34:41] I don't know I think it's like a appendix or something right?

[01:34:44] It's like the heart as a part of the heart.

[01:34:46] Yeah you can have the heart or you can have the guts on the gizzards.

[01:34:49] Yeah.

[01:34:50] The tripe but it was a those were so good you're so right John.

[01:34:55] They would come with a paper bag that would become very quickly completely steamed with oil and grease.

[01:35:03] And so oh my god.

[01:35:05] And they'd pass them around.

[01:35:07] That's what kept the show going it was a Baltimore delicacy yeah.

[01:35:12] We were so you know secret to homicide exactly I never seen that anyplace else never.

[01:35:19] And it was shocking how good they were really good and the crabs I grew up here.

[01:35:25] And so yeah I always I like steamed crabs.

[01:35:28] I don't have them probably is often as I should as a Baltimoreian but yeah you can't beat chest peak bay blue crab.

[01:35:36] They're beautifully sweet they're hot there you know it's it's a bit of a chore to get into him.

[01:35:41] So it's sort of an event you know make it an event.

[01:35:45] Well plus a chest peak bay oysters.

[01:35:48] Yes oysters are delicious.

[01:35:51] There we go.

[01:35:52] Well Baltimore tourism you can sponsor us right here.

[01:35:56] That's right yeah right an IMDB if where I listen to you check out John check out John's background on IMDB.com.

[01:36:07] Well John why can't I listen to so find out more about you and your work.

[01:36:10] You can look on an IMDB they all the stuff that I worked on is listed.

[01:36:16] Thank you yeah thanks John.

[01:36:17] Well thank you Chris for doing this and for for being interested in this show.

[01:36:41] So that was our interview with John and just listening back so I really really enjoyed it.

[01:36:47] I was just listening back to it this morning and you know we managed to get quite a lot of depth there and I don't know if there's anything is stood out for you in that interview season.

[01:36:57] There are many things obviously that I worked with him for six years but have not worked with him since and didn't work with him before homicide.

[01:37:07] So it was really interesting to hear his whole sort of origin story and I loved the part about in college getting a job at the local TV station where he not only shot the footage he drove the car.

[01:37:20] He processed the film he edited the film he got it on the projector you know for that night's broadcast I guess.

[01:37:29] But he he described that as a terrific way to get experience and I think about how many of us start working for free or working in jobs where we're doing everything and people make question that.

[01:37:43] But it's a great way to get experience because it's very difficult to get into the business yeah it is it is I can relate to some of the box office they like my first ever kind of proper paid filming job was a wedding videographer.

[01:37:56] And very quickly you know how you shoot to an edit and you learn what you need and what you don't need.

[01:38:02] And it's a great way of learning about how to shoot a sequence very quickly with sort of documenting the real world so and under a lot of pressure to.

[01:38:11] So yeah I highly recommend that to people that's so interesting because that's how a lot of us start here too I worked on wedding videos and in shoot them I worked as an assistant.

[01:38:22] And did get some some feed in the door that way but the first thing I worked on was a feature film here that I worked on for free.

[01:38:32] And I remember one of the producers I started as a PA and got my resume in and.

[01:38:39] Was hired as the second assistant first time it ever worked as a second assistant and one of the producers we were sitting around at one day and he said why are you working for free.

[01:38:51] And I looked at him and I said I'm here if I hadn't I wouldn't have been there and that was with Tim Serstead who became very very well known cameraman later on it was great experience I got great training there so that whole idea of starting at the bottom

[01:39:06] and making sure you get all you can out of that experience I really heard that in in john's description of how he got started.

[01:39:15] And it's a in a weird way because there's so much risk in the film industry and so much nervousness about that risk being on a set for free means you probably got very little actual responsibilities so it's a great way just to sort of observe what's going on.

[01:39:30] And get a taste of maybe the life ahead of you especially as a crew member because you know you're working very long hours and not always in particularly pleasant conditions as you as you mentioned about the snow.

[01:39:43] You know I would hate to be filming in the snow I've so far managed to dodge that but yeah that must not be fun especially bold.

[01:39:53] Yeah and I have to note that first film was a non-union production after that you don't work for free once you get in the union no that's not what's not happening.

[01:40:01] But just to get your foot in the door.

[01:40:03] No definitely I was very interested in john's comments about the obviously the influence of documentary filming style and a particular cameraman called Don Lenser which is a good name for a photographer and apparently john was very influenced by the way he shot things.

[01:40:18] And one other thing that stood out for me as well was just the technique from laws of gravity that crossed over into homicide especially in the early season two episodes that john was on where they would sort of almost shoot continuous takes

[01:40:32] or they would shoot everything in one direction and then do another take filming in the other direction and then you can kind of cut it together in post.

[01:40:40] And there were no marks for the actors as well which must be quite interesting because you know a lot of filming I've done you know you can have with the rehearsals it can get quite rigid somebody's be here at this point and that point and so on so working with no marks is truly a fascinating approach not for the faint hearted I give you that.

[01:41:01] Yeah I thought it was interesting description when he talked about doing two contrasting masters so you would end up basically with coverage because you're coming from two different directions.

[01:41:12] But also when he said you know you really only need you have two actors you really only need two angles one coming from one side becomes the or the way he lit it if you're shooting from one side and you have a light coming from this side you back light the second actor

[01:41:29] and it's the key light on the first actor and you have another light on the other side that's the key light for the second actor in the back light for the first actor it was really interesting the way he talked about how he dealt with keeping things simple but also gave these huge amounts of leeway and coverage for the editors.

[01:41:51] And about marks it was really nice as a second assistant not to have to do marks on that show because if anybody's familiar with it the marks are there a tea you put up tape on the floor in the shape of a tea where the actors put their feet and you use different color tape for every actor so they know where to go.

[01:42:15] So if that show had been done with marks and what you do is you carry I would have on other many other shows like murder she wrote scar face any other big shows I worked on you'd have about six rolls of tape hanging off your tool belt all different colors black white red green yellow and

[01:42:36] and you put the marks down as they block the scene so the actors know where to go then the stand-ins come in and stand on those marks as they're being lit and then the actors come back.

[01:42:49] But in order to be able to slap down marks really quickly while you're doing a blocking rehearsal you would my whole leg would be full of different colored pieces of tape I put them across my leg

[01:43:00] and you have to have a tab you would rip it off the roll in a way that would leave a tab on the end so you could pick them up really quick and slap them down.

[01:43:09] But that show with sometimes you know seven or eight actors in the squad room in the same scene you know thank God there were no marks because it would have been impossible I think it also would it would slow things up it would have been impossible for the actors just to look around and try to find out where they had to be.

[01:43:29] So that freedom not only of the camera but of the actors to move fluidly they way they wanted to was really different from anything else I'd ever worked on.

[01:43:43] One question about that she will your rehearsal quite long before you shot a take.

[01:43:47] I know it's interesting he mentioned you know we come in at seven on the call have everything ready my recollection is they would block the scene and there was some lighting it we weren't ready to shoot that I recall right away so there would be at least a couple of rehearsals I think when he talked about how how prepared the actors were absolutely

[01:44:16] and my recollection is maybe a couple of rehearsals using you know one of those long sort of master shots around the set.

[01:44:30] And then the pickups we would probably run through the pickup once or twice but it really was fairly quick we didn't do our long rehearsals he was absolutely right about that.

[01:44:43] So I think it's a good mood for thought there as a kind of a well I say aspiring director I am a director but looking to direct more so yeah and kudos to the actors who came in and like he mentioned could could run through a six page scene and he's going in here going to the G's office coming out of the squadron going to the coffee room I mean kudos to them they just kept rolling and obviously sometimes went off script but kept in in the spirit and whatever the subject of the scene.

[01:45:12] Yeah yeah brilliant and another thing that stood out for me on a more humorous note was the fact that the crew were living off fried gizzards.

[01:45:22] What were those gizzards like?

[01:45:26] They were as I said in the interview they were delicious I grew up in Baltimore and I have had a lot of weird food like sauce and scrap all and pickled pickles.

[01:45:41] Yeah and pickled pigs feet. Yeah obviously as well as crabs and things like that but the gizzards they were just delicious and they were actually we weren't sure what they were they're actually the chicken stomach.

[01:45:53] Oh wow.

[01:45:54] The chicken's second stomach they were small bite size yeah yeah and you know some kind of flower coating and fried they were delicious I prefer those I'm not a liver person so I would eat the gizzards.

[01:46:08] Yeah well as a result of the interview I'm now going to go and seek out a fried gizzard just to experience what this was like so I'll do it for the park.

[01:46:18] I have to make sure you come here have to make sure you come here and get the real thing yeah definitely I will share my experiences.

[01:46:25] So Susan for the benefit of should we say the filmmaking audience in this what equipment was used on homicide well I'm going to credit American cinematographer that came out

[01:46:36] and did a big story on us in that was at 95 96 and luckily they they talked about specifically technically all the equipment that we were using so it wasn't at on XTR 16 millimeter camera but it also was fitted with a super 16 gate.

[01:46:57] So that made the negative a little bigger so you had a better resolution yeah for television so that's one of the reasons also it looks so good.

[01:47:09] The camera also had well it was had double handles so Jean could control it really easily and one of the handles had a zoom control on it so that instead of the first assistant focusing and manipulating the zoom.

[01:47:26] Either remotely or wired that would be a wired zoom or remote zoom john actually had the freedom to zoom in and out and change.

[01:47:36] Change the aspect of the shot while he was looking through the lens.

[01:47:40] We had a video transmitter obviously which is standard now so that the director and you know others writers were in an area called video village where they could watch what we were doing as we were doing it.

[01:47:54] And a lot of the key people also had watchman monitor so the A D's on the set he's got a little watch man monitor and he can see it as well we use a cook.

[01:48:05] 10.5 to 52 zoom lens and then we had a full set of Zy super speeds and a Canon 11.5 to 138 millimeter zoom the long zoom.

[01:48:16] And outside scenes we use the 81 EF filter and we did change film stocks although i'm not sure anybody's interested in film stocks anymore but we started out with code act 72 93 which was a 400 ass a film.

[01:48:35] And outside and 200 the 400 sorry 400 indoors and 200 ass a outdoors and then switch to 72 79 and then switch to 72 79 for interiors and night exteriors and I love this quote from john about the aton which was really true.

[01:48:55] After 60 shows averaging about 75 exposed roles per show we have yet to get a scratch or a hair in the gate I say this only because 16 millimeter gets such a bad rap and 16 millimeter transfer directly to beta looked very close to 35 millimeter and he gave kudos to color lab in DC who always sent us a clean negative so it was a very versatile camera it was a workhorse.

[01:49:23] And of course boots the first assistant would every time we changed film magazines you make sure the gate was clean and blow the blow it out with you know with compressed air.

[01:49:38] But we rarely had any technical issues like scratches or hairs in the gate or anything where we had to say oh we have to reshoot that yeah yeah because the camera was was so reliable yeah and just for your order not a hair and a gait is that's when the emotion is scratched off the.

[01:49:53] Film and kind of comes off as a worry pair basically yes and it can be or can actually be a hair or dust or you know anything that happens to get in which is why it's it's such a nightmare to shoot in dusty or sandy locations because you don't want anything yeah inside the camera where it's you know where the films being exposed.

[01:50:12] Sometimes it on old movies occasions bit of a shot usually towards the end of a shot this little bit of a weird wiggly thing moving around like an eye floater and he like what is that and it's the hair and the gate again was it film school level that was oh my goodness you know.

[01:50:27] So in the game yeah and the art on really cool camera because I think it has its roots back to the French new wave is a French camera it was that and the acclaim with the two main camera brands for the French new wave and obviously homicides was a little bit influenced by French new wave.

[01:50:42] So I think it's because there's a very nicely designed camera for handheld uses that the art on.

[01:50:47] Yeah especially if you're moving that quickly unlike other cameras and I came from 35 millimeter panoflexes which had quite the threading routine where you had to pull loop out and thread it through the interior of the camera.

[01:51:02] So it was great about the aton was that how to set loop and you just slap the magazine onto the camera you didn't have to thread anything yeah it just went onto the camera.

[01:51:14] The way that the magazines are constructed and and the way the camera was constructed so that was a much quicker reload then it would have been if we'd been using cameras that you actually had to get in there you know use your fingers and thread it through this bracket holes in the sprocket gears and all that stuff.

[01:51:31] Yeah indeed and I now I used one of the union I used Ari SR 2's and SR 3's and I remember correctly.

[01:51:39] The loop you had a loop of film that would have to come out the magazine I think it had to be two fingers thick or something something very imprecise but that would be it if you got that wrong your film would be jumping around the gaze of the camera and it used to terrify me absolutely terrify me that responsibility.

[01:51:56] Yeah I can get really noisy that way absolutely yeah yeah no it's funny actually mention that on one or two scenes of the DVD I can hear the camera because I'm used to the sound it has a very particular rhythmic sound that you can hear if you listen for it on some of the interiors unlike the early seasons of homicide I think they got a better blimp as it went on but maybe yeah we had a very blimp a very heavy blimp which was basically super padded leather specialties.

[01:52:25] I think we were especially made cover that went around the magazine and sort of Velcroed across the front of the camera.

[01:52:33] I also wanted to mention just for people who haven't been on a film set. When John talked about Josh having a china ball on the end of the boom pole wasn't China like glass it was actually a paper around paper lantern.

[01:52:52] It was probably you know 10-12 inches across paper lantern that obviously created a really soft light and whether I'm sent you know they may have I know some some of the handheld lights they used were more dimmable were on dimmer so they could but I'm not.

[01:53:12] They might have been able to do it with the Chinese lantern I don't think the keynotes which were fluorescent were dimmable maybe they were at that point.

[01:53:22] But yeah so that was a paper lantern not not a glass ball and is it like a photographic bulb in the lantern or is it a special film like you remember my guess is it was I want to say it was an incandescent but maybe a photo incandescent at a high.

[01:53:42] So you know if you're a voltage then your normal interior light but that that would be a question to go back in and ask Josh the gaffer yeah so yeah I remember at uni we were quite enthusiastic about China balls.

[01:53:58] So it's quite cheap to make and with the right you know photographic bulbs in them.

[01:54:03] You could get reasonable bit of exposure off those China balls because I know old film stock which was very which wasn't very sensitive those kind of lights weren't very effective but as film stocks got more sensitive especially digital cameras now China balls are actually quite effective as a soft sort of source for people

[01:54:21] and with it keeping a good natural look because that's the other thing with lighting is making sure it kind of fits in with the environment that's lit that you're in and doesn't sort of stand out as a fake light you know what I mean is real art to lighting yes and because the way we were shooting.

[01:54:39] Obviously the set was lit for areas where the actors would land but so much movement happening you know you couldn't have a hundred spots where the actors were going to land and have them perfectly lit so to have the mobile you know any kind of mobile lighting unit to go with the camera as it moved you know without tripping over each other

[01:55:03] and making it look natural really was kind of amazing how how they came together yeah what kind of shoes you guys worry because the one thing I found when filming is every time somebody moves the sound man glares at you because he or she could hear it and yeah

[01:55:21] everybody was wearing athletic shoes and soft sold shoes that's a good question you know if Sean had a special anything special besides good athletic shoes but yeah squeaky shoes could be a problem a lot of the set the interior set was carpeted not all of it some of it was in the squad rooms so that help but yeah that that's a problem because it wasn't just John you know as he mentioned it was John and boots the focus puller

[01:55:49] and the boom operator and and often Josh with the light following as well so that's a lot of feet scrapbook around yeah while you're recording and I'm assuming the director had to go into video village for this yes unless it was John directing yes so the director would be unless it was a shot where we want moving around too much

[01:56:11] and yes it was an incredibly and maybe when we get some sound people on it was an incredibly difficult show for the sound department because there's no place to hide anything right if you're looking at everything at any moment and there isn't a set you're not sure where everybody's going to be looking or where the camera is going to be looking at any moment so kudos to the boom operators of which we had quite a lot of things

[01:56:41] right a few and often in that kind of motion Lavalier mics are transmitted Lavalier mics that you would try to pin on people and hide them wouldn't work because there's too much rustling the clothing is everybody's moving around so it was a lot a lot a lot of recording done with the boom following the camera around

[01:57:02] and it was it was very difficult for them and they did a great job and then obviously the sound mixers were very very challenge because they want to get perfect sound right yeah yeah definitely well I look for to having a future chat with some of the sound of course some mixes because it's funny of all the innovations in filmmaking the one thing that the very few innovations in but that might change of AI but one of the areas that is very old school is sound you either get good sound we get bad sound

[01:57:32] and there's only so much you can do to fix bad sound before we have to resort to ADR where you just replace the dialogue and and the dangers of ADR is it doesn't always perfectly match up but say that that's got a lot better these days there's a real art to ADR but I think it's used a lot more than people realize but

[01:57:51] but that's for another conversation so an additional challenges for the sound mixer we were besides the morgue and besides the squadron sets everything we did was a practical location

[01:58:07] so there is no you know sound baffled rooms we were recording in or sound baffled sound stages I mean even the squadrons and the morgue were not sound stages they were practical locations that were turned into sets

[01:58:23] you know but then we're on the street were in row houses we're on a very very noisy street where the squadron sets were where there were bars every other business across the street lots and lots of noise they did a great job

[01:58:42] yeah yeah barely see something else you like to add I thought it was I thought it was interesting that John because I didn't notice this of course we're all busy doing our own thing

[01:58:52] but when he did bump up to directing of course he was still behind the camera so for the camera crew he was still behind the camera

[01:58:58] but when he talked about having he said to be a director you're going to have some humiliating moments I don't remember that

[01:59:06] I don't remember the crew or the cast being sort of affronted by his directing but he would know that because you know he was the director

[01:59:18] so but you know as as a camera crew I he was still the cameraman so but and he talked about how nervous he was the first day of the first

[01:59:30] the first day of shooting as a director and you would think after being on the show for so long and knowing everyone and knowing how the show goes

[01:59:38] and knowing everything about it he was still nervous which I think it shows you the kind of the pressure that different as he mentioned different kind of pressure as a director

[01:59:50] then as a camera as a cinematographer I thought that was interesting yeah yeah yeah

[01:59:56] and he is a great director he's gone on to do so many brilliant things and so you know I love the episodes that we that he directed that we talked about

[02:00:06] and his first episode sniper was not exactly an easy episode to do as your first episode either so he did very well

[02:00:12] and any any any you mentioned it being a very joyful set and I would agree with that yeah I worked on a lot of things

[02:00:19] of course I haven't a long time but it's a very stressful atmosphere filmmaking is a very stressful atmosphere

[02:00:27] and perhaps more so television because you have much shorter shooting schedule and a lot more to do every day than you would on a feature film

[02:00:37] but that there were much less ego issues between the directors and the actors I don't remember a lot of that where you know other things I've worked on

[02:00:49] you'd sit around and wait while the director and the star were having a war over who was going to show up to the set on time

[02:00:57] and who was going to make who wait there was none of that and I think I mentioned this before but everyone I've contacted as we're sort of putting this together has said

[02:01:09] it was the best experience of their careers and and Jean said the same thing and I think because it was so different

[02:01:17] it had the sort of free flowing creative feel it was groundbreaking it it imbued the set and the show which is why I think the show still is so good with an energy that was new and different

[02:01:35] from traditional television broadcast television yeah brilliant well on that note I think we will wrap up but Susan thank you for your time today

[02:01:46] thanks Chris thank you everybody for listening I hope you enjoyed that please connect with us and share this episode on social media

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[02:02:02] just type in homicide life on the set and it should come up there and there are links in the show notes below

[02:02:07] thank you very much for listening and we'll catch you on the next episode

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