S1 Ep10: Jay Tobias, Frank Ferro and Miles Perman - The AD's

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy award winning television show Homicide Life On The Street with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram. On today's show we're joined by the assistant directors Frank Ferro, Jay Tobias and Miles A. Perman. Hello everybody and welcome to the podcast. Susan, how are you?

[00:01:16] Hey good, how are you Chris?

[00:01:17] Yeah good thank you. Today's episode we've got the ADs and the assistant directors are kind of the people who kind of the glue of holding everything together and sort of they're almost like I liken them to the adults in the room whilst everybody else is a bit like the kids. They're the ones you have to make sure that you know you kind of get everything you need you stay on schedule. And when things do go over schedule they're the ones you have to work with the director to figure out maybe how can we do things differently.

[00:01:43] So yeah so really looking forward to this conversation but any thoughts you have before we kind of go into it?

[00:01:50] Yeah I think one of the things is what you just said I mean I was on the set because I was a camera assistant so you know I wasn't dealing with pre-production I wasn't dealing with post-production.

[00:02:00] Also wasn't dealing with all the problems they had to deal with in running this you know a hundred plus crew of people you know that range from the extras you know through the actors through all the different departments and making sure everybody like you said everybody has what they need.

[00:02:16] So I thought this was really cool because this I think besides with Tom and the writers and with David Simon is one of the first sort of technical looks at behind the scenes of pre-production through production through post-production and the kinds of things they were responsible for.

[00:02:38] And so Jay Tobias, Frank Farrow and Miles Perman are joining us and I guess we can talk afterward they really have quite the resumes of things they worked on after homicide.

[00:02:50] But also one thing I really enjoyed with this was their origin stories how they got into the business and then what brought them to homicide which is always fun to hear from our guests.

[00:03:00] Yeah indeed well let's get into the episode and we'll join you on the other side.

[00:03:24] Frank J Miles welcome to our podcast it's great to have you on and how are you all doing?

[00:03:30] Doing great happy to be here thank you.

[00:03:33] It's very good to be here thank you it's exciting that the show's on streaming on Peacock now and it's wonderful to watch it.

[00:03:41] Yeah well that's probably a good question to start off on really have you all managed to watch any of it on Peacock and what are your impressions of it?

[00:03:47] Well I actually just started watching a couple of days ago and it was quite amazing to see it.

[00:03:55] It looks much better you know it's 16 by 9 and you know that I'm sure it gets better as the seasons progress.

[00:04:06] But first thing I noticed it just boy it just looks better than I think that they had intended.

[00:04:12] They did a great job digitizing it and whatever magic they did.

[00:04:19] But it's it's nice to see eventually we'll go through it all and all these memories will come flooding back and.

[00:04:27] And there are many many memories good ones mostly.

[00:04:31] We I also just started watching it.

[00:04:34] My wife had never.

[00:04:38] I don't think she'd seen any because I don't have the the box set.

[00:04:42] And really the idea was for her to at least watch the three that I directed.

[00:04:49] I said you know I directed three and the feeling I always had was I don't like watching things that I work on because yeah.

[00:05:01] And so it was great.

[00:05:03] We we watched the three episodes.

[00:05:05] I think we watched the pilot first because I wanted to make sure she knew the characters you know all of the characters the original thing and what Barry's concept was.

[00:05:17] And then we watched my three episodes and then we started to watch episodes that I wanted to see.

[00:05:26] And to go off your to go away from your question for for one.

[00:05:30] I wanted to see one that I really loved the directors.

[00:05:35] And it was Larry and Leslie who.

[00:05:38] Yeah, I mean, I really liked a lot of the directors, but Larry and Leslie I had a great time with.

[00:05:43] So I I wanted to go to the motel episode full moon and we watched it.

[00:05:49] And then it had Frank's name as the first AD.

[00:05:54] And it's like I remembered all the talk we had about Reverend, you know, the Reverend.

[00:06:00] And I remember going the scouting this this location and and, you know, choking with with.

[00:06:09] I want to say Frank again with our production designer.

[00:06:15] I just went on it.

[00:06:16] Vince.

[00:06:16] Vince.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:17] Yeah.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:18] And saying, I can't believe you're taking us all the way the hell out here.

[00:06:23] You know, that, you know, with with, you know, Jim is going to frickin have my head because we're so far away.

[00:06:29] We can't do this.

[00:06:30] And then I had Frank's name on it.

[00:06:34] And it was like, I have photographs of me with Larry and Leslie on that set of with Reverend Horton Heat with the tinfoil and the crazy crosses and the red light and how Larry and Leslie were so adamant about the colors.

[00:06:48] And but I didn't remember necessarily the naked lady.

[00:06:52] And so I said, maybe this is an episode, the episode where Jimmy said, you're going to be production managing this pilot, Falls Road.

[00:07:03] And he took me away.

[00:07:04] But Frank, do you remember a D in that episode?

[00:07:07] No.

[00:07:07] So you're stealing my credits like the other Pharaoh guy is stealing yours.

[00:07:11] At least it didn't say Joseph Pharaoh, right?

[00:07:13] No, it means I'm not getting Frank is taking away my residuals.

[00:07:18] Right.

[00:07:19] I'm thinking funny you say that, Jay, because as I go back and I looked and I tried to recap the directors and the episodes that I had worked on.

[00:07:29] Right.

[00:07:30] I had the same issue.

[00:07:31] I saw Ivan's name was on an episode once.

[00:07:36] And I think they may have rearranged the order at some point, but there were several instances where I had the same issue.

[00:07:44] So I'm not quite sure what happened.

[00:07:46] I mean.

[00:07:46] OK, NBC, if you're listening, you need to fix that.

[00:07:51] I mean, we go for it.

[00:07:52] We'll get a lot of checks.

[00:07:54] I have all the call sheets, Frank.

[00:07:56] They're in the basement.

[00:07:57] I'll check.

[00:07:58] All right.

[00:07:58] All the calls are great.

[00:08:01] So I'm not quite sure what happened.

[00:08:02] Yeah, that's weird.

[00:08:03] So let's wind back.

[00:08:04] So, Miles, so have you had a chance to look at the restoration?

[00:08:08] It's funny that we call it a restoration, but yeah, the streaming version.

[00:08:11] I did watch the first episode.

[00:08:14] And, you know, what came to light was just I was very young working on the show and as were all of us.

[00:08:21] And I just didn't really get the dialogue as much as I got the dialogue.

[00:08:26] I just the dialogue in the first episode just between it was like Corsetti was with with Clark.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:36] And just their just their deny that just their dynamic together, the dialogue together.

[00:08:42] It's just it was brilliant, you know, and I just don't think I I understood how brilliant of a show it was that we were working on back then being so young and naive in the business.

[00:08:51] All right.

[00:08:53] It's it's funny things strike me.

[00:08:54] I was watching.

[00:08:55] I think it was I think it was stakeout last night.

[00:08:58] I'm up to to season four, middle of season four.

[00:09:01] I'm trying to watch them all over again.

[00:09:02] I'd watched all the DVDs and I'm watching the streaming.

[00:09:05] And there was a line where I think Megan Russert, Isabella says says to Richard Belzer, you know, women women don't offer often, you know, torture and murder women.

[00:09:17] And Richard Belzer says unless there's a gingerbread man involved.

[00:09:20] Like, you know, really funny, clever dialogue.

[00:09:25] Yeah.

[00:09:25] Really good.

[00:09:26] Good stuff.

[00:09:28] So let's start with start over and we'll go backwards this time from how did you guys get into the business and and how did you end up on homicide?

[00:09:37] And because there's so many of us, you know, let's not keep it short.

[00:09:43] We get so go ahead, Miles.

[00:09:45] How did you get in?

[00:09:48] Oh, I had a relative that that is in the business.

[00:09:54] Barry Levinson is a cousin of mine.

[00:09:56] Oh, I think I forgot that.

[00:09:58] And I he got me on and I was one of the new green PAs on the show.

[00:10:07] There are a few of us that that had relatives that were on the show that started at the same time.

[00:10:13] And I'm the one that made it all the way through.

[00:10:16] Nice.

[00:10:17] But you had been working in the business before that, right?

[00:10:20] I had not as a production assistant.

[00:10:22] I am.

[00:10:23] I worked on Avalon as a as an actor for one scene.

[00:10:28] That's where I met Frank Farrow.

[00:10:30] And I hung out on the set a lot for that.

[00:10:33] And then I did stand in work on Her Alibi, which was a Tom Selleck, Paulina Porzakova.

[00:10:39] Oh, I remember that film.

[00:10:40] Yeah.

[00:10:40] Yeah.

[00:10:40] It wasn't a great film, but I was a stand in on that back in the day.

[00:10:45] Um, and, you know, I was just always mesmerized by the AD team.

[00:10:52] You know, I felt that that was the path I wanted to, uh, to choose.

[00:10:57] And when I met Frank, I said, I want to do what he's doing.

[00:11:00] And that was, uh, sort of my, uh, start into the business was I wanted to be like Frank.

[00:11:05] Oh, cool.

[00:11:06] I wanted to be like Frank.

[00:11:07] That's great.

[00:11:08] So Jay, how'd you, you were, you were a DJ trainee, correct?

[00:11:12] Yeah.

[00:11:12] I wanted to be like Frank.

[00:11:15] Um, so I, I, my mother had just always wanted me to be, you know, an actor, writer, director,

[00:11:27] like her thing was Jerry Lewis and stuff.

[00:11:29] And I got, um, so that was, please don't.

[00:11:33] Um, and so I got, uh, I graduated high school early.

[00:11:38] I was like 16 and I went right to college and, uh, at college, the, and this is the only

[00:11:45] reason that Jerry Lewis gets in here.

[00:11:47] The first, uh, event at the college for people in the film and, um, the film and television

[00:11:56] division was Jerry Lewis doing a guest talk and he was making a show.

[00:12:00] And at the end of it, he says, if anybody wants to be in the show, I need extras.

[00:12:05] So I went on it there.

[00:12:06] Then, uh, I was a PA on a bunch of shows and then, um, from PA, the second AD, um, said he

[00:12:17] just wanted me to be his second forever, you know, his team forever.

[00:12:21] Um, which I did not love that idea.

[00:12:24] Um, but I heard about the training program.

[00:12:26] I was in Florida at university of Miami.

[00:12:29] I went up to New York, flew up to New York for the, um, you know, they took me in first

[00:12:35] there was, you had to fill out a form.

[00:12:36] They take you up there.

[00:12:37] There's a guy who's the head of the program.

[00:12:39] There were like 600 people in the auditorium at the director's guild theater.

[00:12:43] And he gives a speech about becoming a trainee.

[00:12:46] And, uh, one of the things he said was that the lifespan of an average AD is 54 years old.

[00:12:54] Do you, I, I'm sure I told you guys this story cause I always use it.

[00:13:00] Um, and so I was still a teenager and it was like 54 is forever.

[00:13:04] Who wants to live that long?

[00:13:07] Um, and so I went for it and ultimately they took six people into the training program, uh,

[00:13:13] that year.

[00:13:14] And I stayed, I went through the two years of training program and then second and a few

[00:13:18] years later as a first.

[00:13:20] Um, I had been, the way I got on this show was I think Nina, had you been working on

[00:13:26] the show?

[00:13:27] You did the first season, Frank?

[00:13:29] I did.

[00:13:29] Yes.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:30] So was Nina one of the first?

[00:13:32] Yes, she was.

[00:13:32] And so I guess, you know, Jimmy must've asked Nina for someone she could recommend.

[00:13:40] I had been doing young Indiana Jones Chronicles in Wilmington, um, all the domestic stuff.

[00:13:46] And she had moved to Wilmington also in North Carolina.

[00:13:51] And, you know, she saw me, I was doing young Indy.

[00:13:54] I'm sure she gave Jimmy my name.

[00:13:56] Um, and then I came on, on the second season.

[00:13:59] There were three episodes that one of the ADs did, uh, and that was, and I did not do the

[00:14:07] episode that was Robin Williams.

[00:14:09] So, and then, uh, Jimmy kept calling me back the season, you know, I was there.

[00:14:14] So that's how I got on the show.

[00:14:16] So Frank, how'd you get in the film business and what was the connection?

[00:14:19] Well, I, when I graduated from Towson State University back in the day, I remained in Baltimore

[00:14:25] and just worked on commercials and movies.

[00:14:27] And I was fortunate enough to work on Barry Levinson's Avalon as a production assistant under the tutelage

[00:14:34] of Peter Giuliano, first AD, big time, tough first AD, uh, an incredible experience with him.

[00:14:42] And I was also a production assistant on John Waters' Crybaby.

[00:14:45] And I had done several other movies, uh, as a production assistant.

[00:14:52] But then I did David Mamet's film called Homicide, actually no relation.

[00:14:58] And Matthew Carlisle was the first AD, Karen Collins was the key second, but there was no second, second AD.

[00:15:07] And, uh, Michael Hausman was our producer, a very prolific, uh, producer.

[00:15:15] And at the end, Michael Hausman said, Hey, I think we're gonna, I think we're gonna bump up Frank.

[00:15:20] The end of the show, we're gonna give him, we're gonna put him in the director's guild.

[00:15:24] And this was about 1990, I guess, in the fall of 1990.

[00:15:29] So they had, and I, they had put me into the DGA.

[00:15:34] Um, I wasn't on the Southern California qualifications list.

[00:15:38] However, it was, it was, it's still, I think, called the third area.

[00:15:40] So I could only work outside of New York and Los Angeles, which was fine since I lived in Baltimore and it seemed to be working out.

[00:15:48] So, and the, after that, I think the only thing I did, I had the wonderful opportunity to be an additional second AD on Forrest Gump.

[00:15:59] That was, uh, quite amazing.

[00:16:01] And then Homicide came along in 92.

[00:16:05] And Jimmy Finnerty, I met with Jim, who I can't say enough things about, probably one of the most influential people I've ever met in my entire career.

[00:16:16] And he said, all right, you're gonna be my second AD.

[00:16:20] I'm like, but Jimmy, I don't have any experience being a key second AD.

[00:16:24] I can't be a, I can't be your second AD.

[00:16:27] I would be, feel very comfortable being your second second.

[00:16:30] I've never done this.

[00:16:32] Like, I, I, he's like, you're all I got kid.

[00:16:35] You're the only one in the union.

[00:16:36] This was before Shelley Ziegler got in the union.

[00:16:40] Shelley Ziegler is now, you know, a big, big time first AD and who also did Homicide.

[00:16:45] Uh, so I was the key second.

[00:16:49] Much to the chagrin of Nina Noble, who was the first, uh, one of the first ADs on the first season.

[00:16:55] And Rob Roy was also the first AD.

[00:16:59] And Rob Roy really helped me so much.

[00:17:04] And so did Jim Finnerty.

[00:17:05] He said, we're gonna, we're gonna get you through this.

[00:17:07] We're gonna help you.

[00:17:09] And they did.

[00:17:11] And, uh,

[00:17:14] We just didn't know what we were doing back then.

[00:17:16] I didn't know what I was doing.

[00:17:17] I honestly did not know.

[00:17:19] I mean, most of our crew, NBC told, gave Jim and Barry a number.

[00:17:24] You can do the show if you can do it for this number.

[00:17:26] And that number required as many local people as possible.

[00:17:31] Without bringing people from Los Angeles, without bringing people from New York, housing them per diem, all that.

[00:17:38] So it was, it was primarily a fully local crew.

[00:17:42] And we all learned.

[00:17:44] And, uh, you know, Jimmy stuck with me and, and helped me out with, and Rob Roy, I can't thank Rob Roy enough.

[00:17:54] Um, and then it just went from there.

[00:17:56] And I was the key second for the first three and a half seasons.

[00:18:01] And then during season four, I was, uh, made a first AD.

[00:18:07] Quick question for the benefit of the audience.

[00:18:09] So not everybody listening are gonna have film experience.

[00:18:11] So I was wondering if maybe you could start, Frank, and then I'll let others fill in.

[00:18:14] Could you explain what the assistant directors do and the different types of assistant directors on, on Hummer side?

[00:18:20] Well, we could start with the first AD.

[00:18:24] Basically does all the scheduling, all the prep work.

[00:18:27] Make sure, make sure that every scene is properly prepared with all the different departments.

[00:18:33] We do all the scouting.

[00:18:34] We have all the meetings with all the different departments.

[00:18:38] And then you do all the prep work.

[00:18:40] You get on the set.

[00:18:41] And then the first AD manages the set and runs the set and make things go smoothly and assist the director.

[00:18:49] Make sure the director that gets what he or she wants.

[00:18:53] Um, the key second AD is in charge of the call sheet.

[00:18:57] The call sheet is, is basically what the work is for the day for each day.

[00:19:03] It's, it's a list of when the actors are coming in, all the props, all the set dressing.

[00:19:09] It has an advanced schedule for the next several days of what the director will be shooting.

[00:19:14] The second, the second, the second, the second director is usually always on this, on the set helping the first AD.

[00:19:21] But back, it's interesting because I think back in my earlier days as a key second, I was on set more often than second ADs these days tend to be.

[00:19:31] I don't know.

[00:19:32] Jay, would you agree with that?

[00:19:34] There was, I, I didn't have second second when I started as a, as a second.

[00:19:39] Um, there was just the second AD who I had to do paperwork on a bulletin board.

[00:19:47] Why?

[00:19:48] And I always had messy handwriting anyway.

[00:19:50] So it was just worked while I was on set.

[00:19:53] And I had to always be, keep, uh, be in the eye line of the first AD.

[00:19:58] So, you know, and then if I was going to leave the set for any reason, if I had to physically go and get the, um, the actors to set, um, or if I had to, uh, go to all the different departments and make sure that they can make times, then somebody had to stand and be there for me.

[00:20:17] Watching.

[00:20:18] But, uh, no, nothing like how it is now.

[00:20:21] Totally different world.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:23] Yeah.

[00:20:23] So maybe Miles, cause Miles, you were a second, second and a second.

[00:20:26] Talk about what your duties were.

[00:20:28] Yeah.

[00:20:28] My roles as a second, second.

[00:20:30] I, um, I directed the background.

[00:20:32] So if we were in the squad room, I would set the squad room up with background extras.

[00:20:39] And, um, we were at a crime scene.

[00:20:41] I would set up the, they'd say, you know, our next scene is the crime, you know, we would know what our next scene is.

[00:20:46] Go start setting up the crime scene, a crime scene.

[00:20:48] So I would work with the teamsters.

[00:20:50] I would work with props.

[00:20:51] I would work with set dressing.

[00:20:53] I would get the cars in place.

[00:20:54] I would get the yellow tape up or save some yellow tape so that someone could be putting the yellow tape up in the scene.

[00:21:00] I, um, sort of placed the background to where I thought that they would need to be.

[00:21:06] Um, we shot handheld, which is, um, not typical of, uh, of other shows that we worked on in the future.

[00:21:13] Any of us, or even before we started on that, on homicide.

[00:21:17] So the camera was basically 360.

[00:21:19] So you had to be ready to go any, in any direction at any time, unless we knew where the video village was going to be set up, um, prior to us getting out there.

[00:21:29] So my job was to prepare for the next scene or direct, uh, the background in the scene that we were shooting.

[00:21:37] Um, we're, uh, even as a production assistant, you play a role in, in queuing background through different shots.

[00:21:43] You look at your sides, which are the mini scripts, uh, to make sure that you're trying to match the same cross at each given time, which was nearly impossible with homicide because we never cut.

[00:21:56] So we just reset.

[00:21:58] And before you had time to reset the background, you were already cuing someone coming to the left.

[00:22:04] That's coming from the right in the previous cut.

[00:22:06] So, um.

[00:22:07] Right.

[00:22:07] Cause you're, they're yelling, you're yelling reset while we're, while Jean or Alex was still rolling.

[00:22:12] Right.

[00:22:12] And he would just whip back around to the, whatever the starting camera position was.

[00:22:17] Yeah.

[00:22:18] So if you watch just the background in the first few seasons or, you know, you'll see the same extra behind say Richard Belzer in one scene, you know, as he's talking, you'll cut over.

[00:22:30] If he's talking to Yafit Kodo, you'll look behind Yafit.

[00:22:34] That same extra is like over Yafit's shoulder.

[00:22:36] You know, um, no one really watches the background that closely.

[00:22:40] Don't let him know that.

[00:22:41] A lot of twins in Baltimore.

[00:22:43] That's right.

[00:22:43] Yeah.

[00:22:44] That's how it rolled.

[00:22:45] And then, you know, as a, as a key second, you spend a lot of time in the trailer, you're planning the next day.

[00:22:50] So you're not on set as much.

[00:22:52] Um, I spent my time as a key second playing poker with the teamsters at times.

[00:22:57] So, uh, you know, we, we all had, we all had.

[00:23:00] That sounds dangerous.

[00:23:02] I hope you weren't playing for money with those guys.

[00:23:05] Oh, we were.

[00:23:07] Would you be able to talk us through your prep production, post-production and scheduling?

[00:23:14] Talk us through like an episode of Humicide, how they kind of start from, you know, you getting the script into ending up on television from your side of things.

[00:23:23] And also that, and that, that you guys were doing the first ADs, um, rotated where every other episode because you were prepping an episode while the other first was shooting an episode.

[00:23:34] So, Lee, when I was watching this video, which, do you remember Zan doing that video?

[00:23:40] Mostly Zan, but everybody I'd given my video camera to when I was directing.

[00:23:44] And I said, just shoot it because I'm leaving the show and I want to remember this show.

[00:23:50] I want to have something.

[00:23:51] So, Chris, I don't know if you got to watch any of it.

[00:23:54] I've seen a bit of it.

[00:23:55] It's really good.

[00:23:55] Really interesting.

[00:23:56] The reason I sent it to Susan for you was because everybody, the podcasts I've listened to, everybody's got a different version of some things that are the same.

[00:24:08] And even Joe, who's the key grip and, um, I'm going to be screwing up.

[00:24:15] Josh.

[00:24:16] Josh Sprink.

[00:24:18] Josh.

[00:24:19] Well, Josh was the gaffer and Joe was the key.

[00:24:22] But they had different memories of the way it was.

[00:24:25] And I have, um, and I do all this.

[00:24:28] And so I had that video and that's why I sent it to you.

[00:24:32] You'll see bits.

[00:24:32] You'll see the butt dolly.

[00:24:34] You'll see.

[00:24:34] And I meant to ask, and I'll get back to your, the real question in a sec.

[00:24:39] Was the Popemobile on homicide?

[00:24:41] Was that because I had a show where we had something called the Popemobile.

[00:24:44] Yes.

[00:24:44] Well, whether you had one or another show or not, but the semi-Popemobile was,

[00:24:48] they cut the cavalier in half and then put the plexi, um, in front of it for the hat episode with Lily Tomlin.

[00:24:55] But that was the nickname we had, right?

[00:24:58] Was Popemobile?

[00:24:58] I think so, yes.

[00:24:59] Okay, great.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:25:00] Um, so Joe and Josh talk about that and it was in a few other episodes, uh, as well where they talked about it.

[00:25:06] And then after we created that for that episode, which we'll get, uh, we started using it more often.

[00:25:12] Um, and, and Alex would request it.

[00:25:14] So the, the way it goes is I get a script.

[00:25:18] Um, usually I think as years went on and I could trust the, my second second or my second to watch set.

[00:25:27] Um, I would leave on it.

[00:25:31] Well, as soon as I got a script.

[00:25:32] So on day seven of it, we had a seven day show.

[00:25:36] Most shows, especially are eight or even nine, you know, when you're in New York or, or Hollywood and, you know, most other places.

[00:25:44] Um, and because you needed that, I mean, you couldn't shoot a regular show without having more, more hours and more days.

[00:25:54] Um, cumulatively homicide.

[00:25:56] Jim said, you got seven days, you got 12 hours as everybody tells you.

[00:26:00] Um, and usually 7am to 7pm, especially because, uh, Thursdays we didn't want it to go past 730 because homicide, uh, because Seinfeld was going to be on.

[00:26:12] And we had, we had, I had to get.

[00:26:16] Now see, here's the difference.

[00:26:18] Here's the difference in memory.

[00:26:19] I remember starting on Wednesdays or Thursdays with the night work.

[00:26:22] So Wednesday or Thursday would be a noon or a one o'clock call.

[00:26:26] And then it would go later and later as the, as the.

[00:26:28] My episodes, I tried to just have the night work.

[00:26:31] Maybe you got out of there in time to watch Seinfeld.

[00:26:33] I like it.

[00:26:34] Well, the teamsters.

[00:26:36] It's critical.

[00:26:36] Sorry if I, this is a funny thing that the teamsters would call me nighttime Frank.

[00:26:41] Oh, here Frank's on.

[00:26:42] So we're going to be working nice on Fridays.

[00:26:44] And, and, and I said, guys, you do understand why we have to have a late call because we have a night exterior.

[00:26:52] Oh, that's the reason why.

[00:26:56] And still to this day, they call me midnight Frank.

[00:27:01] It was the only way we could get the turnaround for Monday morning.

[00:27:05] Cut your weekend in half.

[00:27:06] Not with the actors.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] So that, that's how it would go.

[00:27:10] We get, I got the script.

[00:27:11] If I could get out on day seven of a shoot or at least half of it to start prepping, then, because Jim wanted it as quickly as possible, then I could get a schedule out.

[00:27:21] Talk it through with Jimmy.

[00:27:22] Jimmy, if there were issues that I said, you know, I can't, we can't do this in seven days, you know, especially not in 12 hours because of this scene, this scene, this scene.

[00:27:32] Jimmy would call the writers up, say, okay, this is a day scene, not a night scene.

[00:27:39] Cut this by two pages.

[00:27:41] Put the scene over here.

[00:27:42] And Jimmy would tell the writers what they, that doesn't happen anywhere else.

[00:27:46] This is because Jim was given ultimate power by Tom.

[00:27:52] And, you know, Tom was off in New York.

[00:27:54] The rest of the writers team was here.

[00:27:57] And every, every, there were changes over the years as to who the co-EP, co-executive producers were.

[00:28:02] Because there was Henry.

[00:28:05] And there was Overmeyer, Eric Overmeyer.

[00:28:09] There was, and over the years, you know, the various writers would move up into higher prowess.

[00:28:16] So Julie was not originally a co-EP.

[00:28:21] Julie was, came in as writers, regular writer staff, right?

[00:28:26] And then, but she had been someone who worked with and for Tom before Homicide started.

[00:28:33] So I would go, Jim would call them, say, no.

[00:28:37] Then once regular prep time started, probably was it two or day three when the writers, when the directors would come in.

[00:28:45] So we'd have a meeting with the day three.

[00:28:49] And then we'd go to the writer's office, which was like a block and a half away from the production office and where the stages were.

[00:28:56] Stages.

[00:28:58] And we'd have a meeting where the writers would talk.

[00:29:03] Oh, we didn't talk to them that early, really.

[00:29:05] It was more like day six.

[00:29:07] That was, well, the tone meeting.

[00:29:08] Right?

[00:29:09] The tone meeting.

[00:29:09] The tone meeting.

[00:29:10] Would be a little bit later, yeah.

[00:29:12] Yeah.

[00:29:13] So we had an initial meeting.

[00:29:14] The writer said, whatever, a couple of things to give a general idea.

[00:29:19] The tone meeting would be the last meeting with the writers and the director to tell them what they wanted in these scenes.

[00:29:26] Usually pretty fast on this show.

[00:29:28] I've been on shows where it's hours.

[00:29:32] And by tone meeting, see, I don't know this term.

[00:29:36] The tone meeting was so that you guys understood how to handle the set and the director so that the overall theme or tone of that episode came through.

[00:29:48] Is that what a tone meeting?

[00:29:50] I mean, I don't even know what that means.

[00:29:54] We got our direct mostly from Jimmy.

[00:29:57] We had to get the days done.

[00:30:01] So whatever the, and, you know, mind you, I've directed almost 20 shows by now, you know, about 20.

[00:30:08] And some aren't on IMDb because they never saw the light of day pilots.

[00:30:13] But the, so tone meetings would change from show to show.

[00:30:18] On Homicide, it was pretty fast.

[00:30:21] It was, okay, what would you, what would you like to know?

[00:30:26] Or it was, okay, this scene means the most here.

[00:30:29] This means the most here.

[00:30:30] I want to make sure you get these beats.

[00:30:33] And they would want to make sure.

[00:30:34] But in the early days of prep and everything, it was mostly the first ADs telling the directors, here's what you got to, here's what you got to do.

[00:30:45] This is what the set's like.

[00:30:47] This is the way you shoot because none of, first of all, most of them were newbies at television.

[00:30:53] They had done independent films.

[00:30:55] This is the, what Barry wanted, I think.

[00:30:59] And also at Nazio and also Gail Mutrix.

[00:31:04] And Gail Mutrix, I think what had the last word on who the directors were or the first word, you know, the, so she really had her, her fingers on the, the pole.

[00:31:17] And also the indie filmmaking world.

[00:31:19] So as far as what happens here, Frank, interrupt me when you can.

[00:31:25] So then we'd go around, we'd scout with Vince.

[00:31:29] Vince and who's the location manager?

[00:31:32] Debbie.

[00:31:33] Debbie Dorsey.

[00:31:35] Donaldson.

[00:31:36] Debbie Dorsey first.

[00:31:37] And then after Debbie, it was.

[00:31:40] Well, Adam was on the, on the locations, not doing the scouts.

[00:31:45] Charlie Armstrong.

[00:31:46] Oh, Charlie.

[00:31:47] No, blonde girl.

[00:31:48] She became the location, the head of locations in, for Maryland, for Baltimore.

[00:31:54] Come on.

[00:31:55] She was with us for years.

[00:31:57] Kathy Ash.

[00:31:57] Kathy Ash.

[00:31:59] Kathy Ash.

[00:32:00] Right, right, right, right.

[00:32:00] Right.

[00:32:01] Right.

[00:32:02] Kathy and Debbie.

[00:32:02] Kathy.

[00:32:03] Right.

[00:32:04] So Debbie, Kathy, Adam.

[00:32:07] So we would go, we'd scout.

[00:32:10] Vince would show us things.

[00:32:13] Frank, I'm sure you did this too.

[00:32:15] At some point we would say, no way, impossible.

[00:32:19] Can't do this.

[00:32:20] I remember one place, it was a row house, right?

[00:32:24] These, the tiny houses in really nasty neighborhoods that we walked into one and the stench, it was

[00:32:33] like a hoarder house, but also like papers all over the place.

[00:32:37] The, we didn't know from hoarders.

[00:32:39] I didn't from then.

[00:32:40] It's not like there were TV series on cable.

[00:32:42] Um, and it, the animal smell of all the crap that were not being cleared up for years.

[00:32:49] Um, it was really nasty.

[00:32:52] And we, and I remember saying to Vince, the crew will not come in here.

[00:32:57] We cannot shoot here.

[00:32:58] Find another place.

[00:33:00] There were tons of, of row houses all over.

[00:33:03] And there was something about the character of that row house that Vince said, you know,

[00:33:09] it's gotta be this.

[00:33:11] Um, and my crew will clean it up.

[00:33:14] You will not know from this crap, which I'm thinking, well, why are we doing it?

[00:33:20] Just go to a clean row house.

[00:33:21] But, um, we walked in, the smell was still there.

[00:33:26] Not as bad as it was on the scout.

[00:33:28] The crew was like, what the fuck?

[00:33:30] Um, I remember Joe saying, I'm, we can't shoot here.

[00:33:35] Crew saying, this is absurd.

[00:33:37] I think we got the art department to like Lysol things over.

[00:33:40] So it wasn't as bad in there, but it smelled like Lysol.

[00:33:44] Um, miles, do you remember this place?

[00:33:45] I do.

[00:33:46] I do.

[00:33:46] I know that you're talking about.

[00:33:48] I remember that I've been, I remember other locations that we were in.

[00:33:52] I remember Richard Belzer once took a drawer.

[00:33:54] Like he was, he got upset about something and his character just takes a drawer and he rips

[00:34:00] it open, you know, takes this dresser drawer out and throws it.

[00:34:04] And then hundreds of roaches just go scurry all over the floor.

[00:34:09] Um, the art department, I think it was this location, Jay, is when the art department went

[00:34:14] to move a picture that was hanging on the wall.

[00:34:17] And there were just hundreds of cockroaches behind the, the, the hanging picture that was

[00:34:22] all over the wall.

[00:34:23] Um, we were in some really nasty places.

[00:34:25] Well, you two, Frank, you two were not involved in the wire and Vince Perano was the production

[00:34:32] designer on the wire.

[00:34:33] And, and he, I worked with Vince on the wire and there were many, many, many times that

[00:34:39] we were in houses just like that.

[00:34:41] So, so Vince, uh, we were just used to that.

[00:34:45] It was awful.

[00:34:47] It was awful.

[00:34:48] Having said that, Vince was my favorite production designer ever.

[00:34:55] Oh, amazing.

[00:34:55] Any show I've ever on.

[00:34:57] Because that was so much of what the show was, what made the show great was how, was that

[00:35:02] look?

[00:35:03] Was that really, you know, that really detailed look?

[00:35:05] He was John Waters guy.

[00:35:07] I mean, he had been with John Waters, I think, from the beginning and he kept that John Waters

[00:35:12] feel.

[00:35:13] Um, the enchanted forest, that was in the hat, right?

[00:35:18] That was also one of my favorite locations.

[00:35:21] I loved that place.

[00:35:22] I wished it was, it had been closed.

[00:35:24] It was out of business when we went there.

[00:35:27] Yeah.

[00:35:27] It was so cool to go there because I used to go there when I was a kid and you guys probably

[00:35:32] did too if you grew up around here and to be able to see it before it was completely,

[00:35:37] you know, it was already falling apart.

[00:35:39] But a bunch of those attractions were rescued and are out in a farm called Ellie Oak Farm

[00:35:44] out, um, out in Clarksville.

[00:35:46] So they did save some of it.

[00:35:48] But yeah, that enchanted forest episode was terrific.

[00:35:52] Well, you remember Clark, Clark Johnson, um, did the behind the scenes there.

[00:35:55] He did a, uh, uh, was it the Christmas video or one of his videos he did?

[00:35:59] So there's, there's video of all of us like between takes going down the slides or playing

[00:36:05] around at enchanted forest, uh, as a crew just behind, behind the scenes.

[00:36:10] I just remember that.

[00:36:11] Where is that?

[00:36:12] I don't know.

[00:36:13] Um, I probably have it on video.

[00:36:16] Yeah.

[00:36:16] Clark Johnson was always great.

[00:36:19] And with his home movies and he did several of them and thankfully they still live and

[00:36:25] it's wonderful to watch those things.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:29] And was it, was it around Christmas that we saw them or was it the end of the season?

[00:36:32] We saw them.

[00:36:33] I can't remember.

[00:36:34] Was it usually at the end of the season?

[00:36:36] I think the Christmas one, he gave us all as gifts for Christmas.

[00:36:40] That was his brother, Ron.

[00:36:41] Ron dressed up as a black Santa.

[00:36:43] Yeah, Ron dressed up as Santa and fell through the ceiling because they, that happened in

[00:36:47] one of the episodes.

[00:36:48] Like that episode.

[00:36:49] Right, right, right.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:50] I didn't finish the prep work.

[00:36:52] Yeah.

[00:36:52] So we, where are we?

[00:36:53] We've just gone past the time meeting and locations.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:56] The locations.

[00:36:58] Any other show we've done, I've done in my life.

[00:37:00] You have to have a production meeting with the crew.

[00:37:03] You have a, you know, with the department heads, you come in, there's all the, all the executives.

[00:37:08] They're more, usually more executives than there are crew, but we had the department heads

[00:37:12] or their seconds.

[00:37:13] And we would talk through the shoot.

[00:37:16] This is usually a day, a day or two before shooting and say all the things that were needed.

[00:37:22] The director and I would just take them through.

[00:37:25] Homicide, Jim said, it's bullshit.

[00:37:27] Just, you know, if there's anything anybody needs, just, you know, deal with it.

[00:37:33] So we would go to the department heads, talk them through it, you know, on set.

[00:37:39] They're on set.

[00:37:40] They're doing whatever hair and makeup are in the trailer and saying, okay, well, this

[00:37:44] is what's going to happen.

[00:37:45] We need this and that.

[00:37:46] And that was it.

[00:37:48] You know, it was like, it's not like they're going to get special equipment.

[00:37:52] Jim's not going to give them, you know, that much money.

[00:37:54] If there's specific makeup things, we would talk it through.

[00:37:56] I saw a great, in one that I directed when we were in the morgue, the makeup on, there

[00:38:06] was just a body.

[00:38:07] He was an extra, but the makeup people had a party with these things.

[00:38:12] You know, if there was a court, say he was like, his face was ripped to, you know, to

[00:38:16] the side and his chest was there.

[00:38:19] And you'll see that in the video if you look, I'm pretty sure it's in there.

[00:38:22] Um, but that's kind of what we, you know, did in prep.

[00:38:27] Um, Frank, why don't you take over things I messed in?

[00:38:30] And no, I think what you mentioned, the lack of a production meeting is so important because

[00:38:39] now, like you don't think twice about having a production meeting and that put a lot more

[00:38:43] pressure on us because our job is to come to set.

[00:38:48] And each morning, everyone has to be properly prepared and there cannot be any questions

[00:38:53] because we, as Jay mentioned, we had 12 hours and Finnerty was tapping his watch at quarter

[00:39:00] of seven and we had to be done by seven, seven 30.

[00:39:04] What was his phrase at that time?

[00:39:06] Have a conscience.

[00:39:07] Have a conscience.

[00:39:08] Have a conscience.

[00:39:10] So that gave, that put a lot more pressure on us.

[00:39:13] And so our meetings were very critical with the department heads.

[00:39:18] Uh, and it was a very truncated prep time.

[00:39:22] You know, we had basically five days with the director and that included scouting and all

[00:39:27] the meetings and the tech scout as well.

[00:39:29] We take, uh, we'd go, we'd, we'd show the keys at night exteriors or certain locations

[00:39:34] that maybe needed some kind of special attention.

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:37] And can you, the tech scouts, did you, did you have to, did you pull Josh and Joe off

[00:39:42] the set or were they done right after?

[00:39:44] I know nobody was going to be working after work.

[00:39:47] When the DP would let us.

[00:39:49] So, so you pulled them off during the day for tech scouts sometimes or lunchtime maybe?

[00:39:54] We tried.

[00:39:55] For, for night shoots.

[00:39:56] Yeah.

[00:39:57] Miles.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:58] I remember, I remember at like, I remember the keys leaving after wrap sometimes, especially

[00:40:03] for night shoots because, you know, no one wanted to continue working after we were wrapped

[00:40:07] and they, they get pulled away.

[00:40:09] I just remember that, you know, cause I was always there for the wrap of the trucks, you

[00:40:13] know, it was the last one out as a second second.

[00:40:15] Um, so I remember that.

[00:40:17] And I remember lunchtime scouts as well, but, but today you scout every location back then

[00:40:23] on homicide, not every location was scouted, you know, only if it needed special attention.

[00:40:29] Um, I mean, it was scouted other than the keys, you know, you know, so the teamsters knew where

[00:40:36] to put the trucks and, and stuff like that, but, but the keys didn't go and come up with

[00:40:40] a lighting scheme or, or something that's, that's done now today.

[00:40:43] It was kind of just done on the fly, you know, as I remember.

[00:40:46] And, uh, and just, just a, just as a memory as me, as a kid being in the business, um, and

[00:40:52] just remembering Jay and Frank, and they had, this is before we had computers, right?

[00:40:57] So, so you, we had movie magic, which is, which came out during our show, but before

[00:41:03] movie magic, Jay would, I remember him with his big book of strips and each one had different

[00:41:08] colors and cutting out.

[00:41:11] And yeah, and just, I remember like, I think my job as a PA for Jay was cut up the schedule,

[00:41:17] the, the, the one liner into strips for me and put them into the binder that you had.

[00:41:22] I think that was, that was one of my jobs, Jay, was to do that.

[00:41:26] And then you would arrange them as scene order and days, you know, and that was just done

[00:41:31] by hand.

[00:41:32] Gosh, I forgot about the strip board.

[00:41:34] Yeah.

[00:41:34] The strip board.

[00:41:35] And then there was also the call sheets were all done in pencil and then, then typed up

[00:41:41] in the office.

[00:41:42] The production reports were all done in pencil at the end of the night, typed up in the office.

[00:41:46] All, all of that now is just done on a computer.

[00:41:48] And then if you had to change a call time, you're like, we all like you pass another

[00:41:52] call sheet out and it would all be handwritten, like in red.

[00:41:54] It was all handwritten.

[00:41:54] So somebody, you guys were down in the, in the production office with 150 call sheets

[00:41:59] making the changes by hand with a red Sharpie.

[00:42:02] All calls plus half hour, all calls plus.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:05] Jim Finnerty was not happy about those days.

[00:42:08] That's right.

[00:42:08] I mean, so we went too long that, you know, the day before if we're pushing the call for

[00:42:12] the next day, cause you know, we had to worry about actor turnarounds and crew turnarounds.

[00:42:17] We had Frank on that show.

[00:42:20] I, we had more power as AD, as the first AD in terms of decision-making.

[00:42:26] It's like Jim didn't want to be bothered unless he had to be.

[00:42:29] I mean, if we had, if there was something that really looked like it was going to be an issue

[00:42:33] or we may go a few minutes or then Jim said, you know, we had to call, you know, that was

[00:42:40] a must or we had to have somebody run and find him, you know, whatever, you know, was

[00:42:45] going on at that time.

[00:42:46] He'd usually be across the street by this time of day.

[00:42:48] And he certainly did not like surprises.

[00:42:51] So as long as you did not surprise him, he was generally okay.

[00:42:56] And, and, and the producers were very, very supportive of us.

[00:43:00] I remember Tom Fontana saying, listen, if any of these actors give you a hard time,

[00:43:08] you know, if they're, if for some reason they're rude, they give you a hard time,

[00:43:12] you have our permission to go tell them to F.O.

[00:43:16] And, and he said that, and I remember that.

[00:43:19] And there was a time probably season four, season five, when Andre Brower with the entire

[00:43:25] show was on his shoulders and he had asked for a day off on a Friday.

[00:43:30] He was very into his family.

[00:43:32] He was, he was, and he was working all the time.

[00:43:36] And he said, Frank, I really want this Friday off.

[00:43:38] I have a family event.

[00:43:39] I really want to need to get off on this Friday.

[00:43:43] And I said, and I tried and I tried.

[00:43:46] I said, Andre, I'm really sorry, man.

[00:43:48] I can't, you're just in all these scenes.

[00:43:51] The only way you're going to be released from working on Friday is if they pull you out of

[00:43:56] scenes, which they were never going to do because the show just rested on his shoulders.

[00:44:01] And he screamed at me.

[00:44:04] He's like, oh, I can't believe I just asked for one day you and he's dropping cuss words.

[00:44:10] And that's unlike Andre because he's, he was one of the sweetest guys, but he was, he was

[00:44:14] an intense actor and he can also be an intense human.

[00:44:17] And man, he was letting me have it.

[00:44:20] And I said, Andre, go F yourself.

[00:44:26] I work every day.

[00:44:28] You only work a couple of days.

[00:44:31] I'm trying and I'm telling, I'm being honest with you.

[00:44:34] I can't give you the day off.

[00:44:36] You have to go talk to the writers.

[00:44:38] And I'm in my little AD office and I see Jim Finnerty and he's looking and he doesn't say

[00:44:43] a word and he looks down and he looks over his glasses and he kind of smiles, shakes

[00:44:48] his head and walks away.

[00:44:53] Good job, Frank.

[00:44:54] And then Andre came.

[00:44:56] We both apologized to each other and it was nice because it was, you know, it was a family

[00:45:01] and sometimes, you know, the, it gets heated, but, but Jim heard me say that and I'm like,

[00:45:08] oh no, the producer just heard me say that to Andre Brower.

[00:45:12] I'm going to get fired.

[00:45:14] But Jimmy, you know, they were, they, they backed us up all the way, all the time.

[00:45:21] All the time.

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:22] Jimmy.

[00:45:22] Yeah.

[00:45:23] I had my altercations with, with a few actors as well.

[00:45:28] And Jimmy, um, you know, Jimmy had my back, you know, that was who was getting first

[00:45:34] team all the time.

[00:45:35] That was, that was me for quite a while.

[00:45:37] Yeah.

[00:45:38] That's the toughest job.

[00:45:39] Yeah.

[00:45:39] Yeah.

[00:45:40] Getting first team to set is just basically getting, working with the actors, hair, makeup

[00:45:44] and wardrobe and coordinating the, the arrival of them on set.

[00:45:49] And when you have, you know, an ensemble cast with a lot of actors, you have to get say seven

[00:45:56] actors ready in the morning and they all have to somehow get to set and certain actors wouldn't

[00:46:01] go to set right away.

[00:46:03] Certain actors would wait in their trailers.

[00:46:04] Somebody needed new shoes or new laces or their breakfast was cold.

[00:46:10] I mean, you, you just name, name anything that could go wrong in someone's mind.

[00:46:16] Uh, so getting the actors to set was definitely not the easiest.

[00:46:19] And I, and one day I was trying to get to set.

[00:46:22] So he was basically just in his trailer and I'm like, come on, we got the whole entire

[00:46:26] cast.

[00:46:26] You're new here.

[00:46:27] You need to come to set.

[00:46:28] And he's like, starts cussing me out and we got, and he got in my face and I got in

[00:46:34] his face.

[00:46:35] The teamsters were holding me back from us fighting.

[00:46:37] It was a, it was a big mess.

[00:46:39] And I get called into Jim Finnerty's office.

[00:46:42] And here I am saying, Oh my God, I'm going to get in so much trouble.

[00:46:45] I almost got in a fight with one of the main actors on the set.

[00:46:48] It's not even like me.

[00:46:49] You know, I'm a, I'm like the last person you would think that would get in an argument

[00:46:52] with anyone.

[00:46:53] And Jimmy says, you should have kicked a little motherfucker's ass.

[00:47:00] Something like that.

[00:47:01] You know, like that's, that's my, that was Jimmy, you know, you know, he always had our

[00:47:06] back with the actors.

[00:47:07] That is, that is for sure.

[00:47:09] Here's, here's the thing about you taking the ADs on and, and we're the department, you

[00:47:15] know, that had to deal with every single other department and almost every other human

[00:47:22] being the only ones that I may not have dealt with, um, were teamster, you know, the heads

[00:47:28] of teams to department, the key in the second, second and so on.

[00:47:32] They, we, I may be dealt with the top three for the most part.

[00:47:37] Um, and then there'd be people who I, who'd be driving vans and stuff.

[00:47:40] So I didn't know all the truck drivers and the, the, the people who drove the, uh, the makeup

[00:47:52] must've dealt and, and Frank, when he was seconding, they dealt with every single human

[00:47:57] being.

[00:47:57] I dealt with every department and most of the people, but when Frank was a second and

[00:48:02] when miles was seconding, which was, um, every human being was touched and talked to by the

[00:48:09] ADs.

[00:48:10] And they had to know all of our plans.

[00:48:13] They had to get a call sheet put in their hands.

[00:48:15] Um, unlike today where it's electronic, you know, in a lot of sets.

[00:48:20] Um, and so there was a personal relationship that had to be there, whether it was good,

[00:48:26] you know, positive or negative.

[00:48:28] Susan and I would kid around together a lot, but we also had some times when, you know,

[00:48:33] I'd be trying to get Susan out of the way and Susan would tell me to fuck off because

[00:48:38] she had to do, you know, she had her, her orders were from the DP and from, um,

[00:48:45] and from boots and from, uh, well, yeah, I don't know if you were taking orders from Dave,

[00:48:51] but you know, they were, they were department and they had to get their work done because

[00:48:57] that was the Cameron.

[00:48:59] And these guys, uh, between Alex and John, um, they often were doing incredibly difficult

[00:49:07] things and were in a lot of pain if they didn't have the, the assistants taking the camera

[00:49:12] off their back or making the chances and making the crazy changes.

[00:49:16] Um, so tough stuff with everything.

[00:49:20] The thing about the ADs is they have to deal with everybody on a personal level as well as work.

[00:49:25] Exactly.

[00:49:26] And, and then, and back then, remember it was a network show of 22 episodes.

[00:49:32] So we were working six, seven months these days.

[00:49:35] That's very, very rare.

[00:49:36] They don't do that much anymore.

[00:49:38] Maybe some of the other network shows still do, uh, but the majority of shows, you know,

[00:49:43] are, are, are smaller number of episodes.

[00:49:46] So day in, day out, month after month, after month, we're all together, 12 hours.

[00:49:53] And we became a family.

[00:49:54] And as a family, as families do, you know, you, you get pissed off at each other and you

[00:49:59] kick, you know, you kick each other in the ass and, but you pull each other up too.

[00:50:05] And that was, uh, it was a special group.

[00:50:07] You know, we, we didn't have a, we had somewhat of a turnaround, I guess, but we, we kept a

[00:50:13] lot of the same crew throughout a lot of those years.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:17] And I would say just to interject there, the, um, you know, the thing to remember about

[00:50:22] ADs is that you're not just touching every department.

[00:50:25] You got to get them moving.

[00:50:27] You know, you have to keep on schedule.

[00:50:29] You guys had all this pressure from the top when keeping on schedule and keeping things

[00:50:33] going and, um, and every department had a department head and a crew underneath them.

[00:50:39] And, and so they all had their own, you know, so, so I'm just saying you guys got a lot of

[00:50:45] pushback all the time from everybody because we were like, I need another minute.

[00:50:49] I need another minute.

[00:50:50] Whether it was, you know, uh, camera grip, electric hair, makeup, wardrobe.

[00:50:55] So I want to give you guys props because people were giving you shit all day long because everybody

[00:51:01] had to move really fast.

[00:51:02] And so it wasn't just, you know, you touched every department, you know, you had to like

[00:51:08] keep the whip going on everybody.

[00:51:09] And so we, so you took a lot of crap from everybody all day long.

[00:51:14] And I'm not saying in a mean way, but because we were all trying to move fast and do our jobs,

[00:51:19] there was, you know, you guys got, you know, got a lot of, you know, you kept it moving

[00:51:25] and, you know, we were all like straining at the bit.

[00:51:29] Right.

[00:51:29] So I give you all a lot of credit for keeping everything going with this, you know, surly

[00:51:35] bunch of crazy people.

[00:51:37] Well, that goes back to what Jay was saying about the lifespan of an assistant director

[00:51:42] being 54.

[00:51:44] Yeah.

[00:51:44] I, I, I, I remember 57, 54 is even worse, but yeah, the, the stress is quite intense and

[00:51:52] the pressure can be quite intense, especially if Jim Finnerty gets riled up a little bit.

[00:51:57] If I can just jump in just on that, just on that one topic is that we, we also, we also

[00:52:03] didn't, we didn't film on a sound, we didn't film on a soundstage.

[00:52:08] We, we filmed in a, just a building that, you know, that wasn't soundproofed.

[00:52:14] We didn't film in a conventional studios as a lot of shows are filmed in today.

[00:52:19] So there were a lot of outside forces that sort of, uh, had play in how we got our job

[00:52:24] done that day.

[00:52:26] Um, you know, so that there was a, there was a lot involved, you know, outside pressures

[00:52:32] and then looking back now and then listening to the other podcasts, you know, I didn't realize

[00:52:38] that Josh and Joe were under the pressure they were under.

[00:52:41] I didn't realize that the camera department had their pressure.

[00:52:45] I, I don't know all like, you know, I just know we need to get the production done and,

[00:52:49] and we all worked as a team from all departments to do that.

[00:52:53] But, but listening back to everyone else now talk about all their trials and tribulations

[00:52:58] of being young in the business, being new to a big TV show, being new to a network show

[00:53:03] and all the pressure that was upon them.

[00:53:05] We don't see that whether it was the actors or under pressure, everyone was under pressure,

[00:53:10] the writers, um, and, and just, just seeing that all open up now as a, you know, you know,

[00:53:17] being older and wiser in this business is it's just, it's incredible how we got that show

[00:53:22] done and how it was critically acclaimed Emmy award winning.

[00:53:26] And we just didn't, you know, Frank and I talked earlier, we just didn't know any better.

[00:53:30] Like this is what we did, you know?

[00:53:32] So we just got it done, you know, like all departments just got it done.

[00:53:37] And, and we shot on film, Susan, you know, you, you were, you know, reloading film, you

[00:53:42] know, or you or Dave were reloading film.

[00:53:44] We were waiting on that or, you know, like it, that doesn't happen today.

[00:53:48] You just kind of shoot and shoot and shoot and have a nice, you know, nicer soundstage

[00:53:52] or studio.

[00:53:53] It's just, we were, we were kids in this business and, and we, we all came together and just made

[00:53:59] an incredible show.

[00:54:00] Yeah.

[00:54:01] I, I, sometimes I think those challenges made it, made it even better.

[00:54:04] Just a why question.

[00:54:06] So how were these 12 hour days sort of broken down?

[00:54:09] How did the 12 hour day kind of play out?

[00:54:12] Lunch after six hours.

[00:54:14] Okay.

[00:54:15] How did it break down?

[00:54:17] And wrap at the end of 12, that was it.

[00:54:21] Yeah.

[00:54:22] No, I would say that, you know, with the 7am call, we, we, you know, production would

[00:54:25] show up around 530, um, you know, for a 545 call, you know, Frank, uh, Frank instilled

[00:54:32] in me at a young age, uh, you know, and, and if you're on time, you're late and that doesn't

[00:54:37] mean just on time.

[00:54:38] You have to be walkie in your ear, walkie on, you know, your Sharpies in your pocket, your

[00:54:45] schedule, just whatever you needed to get the day started.

[00:54:48] And we didn't really have a, we didn't have a caterer back then either.

[00:54:51] So, you know, it was me running to Jimmy's and picking up egg sandwiches for the actors that

[00:54:56] were working or whatever their order was that I just kind of knew some, you know, Andre

[00:55:00] wanted egg whites or someone wanted this, you know, I just would have that hot and ready

[00:55:03] in their trailer for when they, when they arrived on set.

[00:55:06] Um, so our day started a whole lot earlier, um, and ended a whole lot later because we

[00:55:12] had to wait for all the trucks to wrap up, you know, whatever, unless we were in this,

[00:55:15] in this, in the studio.

[00:55:16] So if we wrapped at seven, seven 30, you know, we were out by nine and then my day didn't

[00:55:22] end there either.

[00:55:23] I had to drop off call sheets to actors on my way home because, um, no one wanted them faxed.

[00:55:29] There weren't, there wasn't email.

[00:55:31] So my job was to drive home after, you know, a 14 hour day and swing by Andre Brower's house,

[00:55:37] swing by Danny Baldwin's house and, you know, put a call sheet under someone's door in Fells

[00:55:43] Point.

[00:55:44] I can't even remember who, you know, like, so, you know, our days were, were long, were long

[00:55:49] days.

[00:55:49] Did you get paid overtime?

[00:55:50] No, no.

[00:55:53] No.

[00:55:54] So you'd be driving to the actor's house?

[00:55:56] No.

[00:55:57] $75 a day, Jay.

[00:56:00] $75 a day flat.

[00:56:03] Well, Chris, to answer your question from a first AD, the director and I, the first AD

[00:56:08] and the director would look at the day and say, wait, if we had six scenes, normally,

[00:56:13] I don't know what we have, maybe six, seven pages a day, sometimes eight pages a day.

[00:56:18] So we'd look at each scene.

[00:56:20] We know we'd have 12 hours.

[00:56:21] We'd allocate a certain set of hours.

[00:56:25] Okay.

[00:56:25] From seven to 10, we're doing scene 27.

[00:56:28] Then we've got to do, then we've got to do three scenes before one.

[00:56:31] So we, we time it all out.

[00:56:33] Especially, I remember with John, uh, De Zagonsack, he would have his cards, uh, and he would have

[00:56:39] them on a ring.

[00:56:41] And for each scene, he would have shots that he wanted to do.

[00:56:44] And he and I would go, go through his shot list and, well, we don't have time for this

[00:56:49] one.

[00:56:49] We'd have to get rid of this and throw this away.

[00:56:51] And you would end up having to prioritize.

[00:56:54] But, uh, you know, because the number one rule is you never have enough time.

[00:56:58] You never have enough time to, to do what you really want.

[00:57:02] You could spend forever to do it, but we didn't have the time.

[00:57:05] And so it was all about priorities because you knew there was no, uh, Jim Finnerty would

[00:57:11] give no quarter, right?

[00:57:12] It's 12 hours.

[00:57:14] And that's it.

[00:57:15] And one, one to add onto that then, um, there's some episodes where there's lots of locations

[00:57:20] and then you have the extreme other, which is three men and the Dina, which

[00:57:24] is almost in one location.

[00:57:26] How do you break that down?

[00:57:28] An episode in one room, the whole time to an episode is in lots of places.

[00:57:31] Well, I don't know.

[00:57:32] And we never really, I mean, the, the, the, the method, the filming method with the handheld

[00:57:38] motion just helped out so much in that respect.

[00:57:42] Uh, it, because we're not setting up dolly tracks and doing the wide and then moving the

[00:57:48] tracks and moving the lighting and setting up for the overs and on, uh, on, uh, on, uh,

[00:57:54] on a regular type show.

[00:57:55] So that allowed us to just do so much more with that handheld camera and so much freedom.

[00:58:03] And then with three minute Dina, that was the six day episode, I think, because we were

[00:58:07] all in the box and, you know, uh, that was, we didn't go anywhere and we saved, you know,

[00:58:13] pulled out a day of the schedule.

[00:58:16] But that, and that goes back to what we were talking about earlier, but, you know, Jay mentioned,

[00:58:20] oh, well this, this location is way too far away.

[00:58:23] It had to be done in an efficient manner and it had to be prepped as such.

[00:58:29] And it just had to work.

[00:58:30] And sometimes things would stick out and like, this is just not going to fit.

[00:58:35] So it just all the, the big picture, uh, had to come together in order for it to make

[00:58:40] it work in 12 hours.

[00:58:41] Yeah.

[00:58:42] I mean, I, I do remember sitting with Frank and, and, um, you know, when I was on set

[00:58:47] as a second second and, you know, putting like nine to two, you know, like, I'm, you

[00:58:51] know, the nine to 10 for one scene.

[00:58:53] I remember writing on the call sheet what our time was for each of our scenes.

[00:58:58] You remember that Frank?

[00:58:59] Oh yeah.

[00:58:59] Every day we, we, we.

[00:59:01] Every day.

[00:59:01] And then Jimmy wanted to know.

[00:59:04] So he'd be watching us.

[00:59:05] We'd get a call because he wanted to know when we were going to finish.

[00:59:08] He'd say, you know, we had to start and tell him what it was going to be.

[00:59:11] And I think I would sometimes tell like, cause Frank was my second for a while.

[00:59:15] What season did you, did you bump up to first?

[00:59:19] Season four.

[00:59:20] Four.

[00:59:21] So all of season three and, and the season two episode I did, Frank was, was my second.

[00:59:28] So I, we would go through it.

[00:59:29] I would say, so he would write it probably often.

[00:59:32] We would talk through it.

[00:59:33] I'd say, okay, here, here, here.

[00:59:35] Frank would then take that downstairs to Jimmy.

[00:59:37] Do you remember this?

[00:59:39] And.

[00:59:39] No, absolutely.

[00:59:40] And tell, and tell him, cause I may be just making this shit up.

[00:59:43] Nobody's going to know.

[00:59:45] And then he would go through there.

[00:59:47] And, and then if Jimmy would come up, if we were going over the time that was on the estimates,

[00:59:54] Jimmy would be coming upstairs and give me, you know, his watch was always backwards anyway.

[01:00:00] Right.

[01:00:01] So he'd do the.

[01:00:03] Admiral on deck.

[01:00:05] People would call out AOD, AOD.

[01:00:08] Admiral on deck.

[01:00:09] Jim Finnery was, was regarded as the Admiral.

[01:00:12] He was very much into boats and fishing and took me on some great fishing trips offshore.

[01:00:18] But he, and then he had his walkie talkie in his office.

[01:00:21] So he knew exactly what was going on.

[01:00:23] You know, have a conscience.

[01:00:26] Seven.

[01:00:26] 15.

[01:00:27] That are two o'clock.

[01:00:29] Have a conscience.

[01:00:29] He was listening.

[01:00:31] He knew.

[01:00:32] Very, very smart guy.

[01:00:35] Yeah.

[01:00:36] Frank.

[01:00:36] Jimmy also was the don't fuck it up.

[01:00:39] Right.

[01:00:40] Um, he may have been giving that to me when I was directing.

[01:00:44] So it would be.

[01:00:45] Yes.

[01:00:45] He had several.

[01:00:47] Keep it simple.

[01:00:47] Don't fuck it up.

[01:00:48] Keep it simple.

[01:00:50] Yeah.

[01:00:51] All right.

[01:00:52] Um, go ahead.

[01:00:52] Next question.

[01:00:53] Are there any episodes that stand out for you as, um, challenging?

[01:00:58] Uh, cause there's things like, you know, uh, was it fallen?

[01:01:00] And heroes we have to shoot out in the squad room, uh, and various other things.

[01:01:04] Are there any episodes for you that sort of stand out as challenging or ones that you're

[01:01:07] really proud of?

[01:01:08] Shades, like shades of gray.

[01:01:10] Yeah.

[01:01:10] With the, the massive, you know, sort of bus riot and all the extras.

[01:01:14] In addition, Miles, when you're talking about wrangling extras, in addition to wrangling

[01:01:17] extras, cause we were in so many practical outside locations, they're wrangling traffic.

[01:01:22] They're wrangling like surly pedestrians who don't want to stop and wait.

[01:01:25] So it, you know, it was so many layers of, of things you guys had to control.

[01:01:29] In, in, in that were maybe less so in other more controlled environments on other shows.

[01:01:36] This show had a lot of uncontrolled environments, but anyway, good.

[01:01:39] I, I remember in particular, it was very early on season four when Ed Sharon, when we did the,

[01:01:47] the crossover with law and order, uh, maybe it was just, maybe before, I think it was for

[01:01:54] God and country and maybe it was before the crossover, but I got called into Jimmy's office.

[01:02:00] And I think I only AD'd first AD'd maybe one or two episodes.

[01:02:04] And he said, Hey, we got a big guy coming in here.

[01:02:07] This episode, Ed Sharon, he was the president with the director's guild at the time.

[01:02:12] He was the executive.

[01:02:13] He was executive at law and order.

[01:02:15] He was a big deal.

[01:02:16] Ed Sharon.

[01:02:18] And he says, don't fuck it up.

[01:02:21] Where he said something like that, Jay.

[01:02:24] We had a whole, we had a whole conversation of which course, which put the pressure on

[01:02:28] me and scared the daylights out of me.

[01:02:30] But, uh, but during that episode, we had a, a, a seaplane.

[01:02:35] We had a, we had a seaplane, we had boats.

[01:02:38] And anytime you have, you know, you take the movie company out on the water, not only with

[01:02:45] boats, but with a plane.

[01:02:47] And, you know, these days now, if you have a plane, you have an aerial coordinator next

[01:02:53] to your side.

[01:02:54] You have a Marine coordinator, which I think we did, but we, but they helped us much.

[01:03:00] They now it's just different where they help the ADs have much more support.

[01:03:04] I think, uh, I don't know if you would agree with that, Jay.

[01:03:08] And my experience, uh, it just, we have no support now.

[01:03:11] What's happened with this, with the safety rules and the first ADs now being the safety

[01:03:17] officer.

[01:03:17] And so the responsibilities on us, even though we don't have that kind of control, because

[01:03:23] we're on the set and the, the stuff that goes on out of our view, we can say, did you take

[01:03:29] care of this?

[01:03:30] But we're not getting to watch it and see it happen.

[01:03:33] So what's happened now over the years is the first AD has become the responsible safety

[01:03:39] officer, even though we don't have that ability to really see everything that's going on because

[01:03:45] we have to physically be on the set.

[01:03:47] We can talk through it at the beginning, but I think it's gotten kind of way over the

[01:03:53] freaking time.

[01:03:53] The thing about, I mean, we know this story about, uh, Alec, um, Alex, um, Baldwin with

[01:04:01] right.

[01:04:02] Baldwin.

[01:04:02] But, but I, I guess, but I guess my, I understand what you're saying, but I think I have a little,

[01:04:07] uh, we have more help now than we did back then.

[01:04:11] For instance.

[01:04:11] And so I remember Ed Sharon, the, the, the, the seaplane, which is a, you know, I'm talking

[01:04:17] to the pilot and the walkie and there was a miscommunication and the seaplane started

[01:04:21] to move.

[01:04:23] And Ed Sharon's like, how the fuck is that plane moving right now?

[01:04:29] Like who queued that plane?

[01:04:30] And I'm like, uh, you know, and there was a, it was a miscommunication and, and ultimately

[01:04:35] it was my fault because I clearly didn't communicate properly, but you know, I had boats and I,

[01:04:41] and I was, it was just us, you know, the, uh, you know, miles, you were probably on one

[01:04:45] of the boats helping and other PAs on, uh, maybe I think we had somebody in the plane,

[01:04:52] but you know, getting screamed at by Ed Sharon because the plane moved at the wrong time.

[01:04:58] Uh, it was like, wow, that was, I'll never forget that.

[01:05:01] I mean, and it all worked out, but that was so challenging as an AD to be in charge of

[01:05:07] that.

[01:05:07] So it's a young AD.

[01:05:08] I, you know, I was pretty green at that point here.

[01:05:10] I was, you know, coordinating planes and boats and timings with different things and, uh,

[01:05:17] which I love to do, which I love, love, love it.

[01:05:20] It's fantastic.

[01:05:21] And it's a great challenge.

[01:05:22] And now I'm much better at it, thankfully, but, uh.

[01:05:25] Now, which episode was that?

[01:05:27] Cause I, I know the boats, you know, the, the, um.

[01:05:29] Less than Waterman.

[01:05:31] Well, that was another one.

[01:05:32] Yeah.

[01:05:33] The boats and last of the Waterman, but what, which one had the seaplanes?

[01:05:37] Uh, seaplane.

[01:05:37] I don't remember that.

[01:05:38] It wasn't Ed Sharon, uh, for maybe for God and country.

[01:05:42] I don't know the, the, the title of it, but, uh, I remember, um, yeah, I remember Kenny

[01:05:48] Guinness.

[01:05:48] He was related to the Guinness beer family and he had the seaplane and he lived in St.

[01:05:53] Michael's and he was our guy and he was wonderful.

[01:05:57] And, uh, I remember that very clearly.

[01:05:58] And I remember that day being out on the water, like, Oh wow.

[01:06:02] That was, uh, it was a lot going on.

[01:06:03] It was a lot of, a lot of pressure.

[01:06:05] Yeah.

[01:06:06] I have a question.

[01:06:07] So Frank, you remember the last of the Waterman, right?

[01:06:09] I, but that was not me though.

[01:06:11] I do remember.

[01:06:12] So that was, no, I was prepping.

[01:06:14] At that point I was a first AD.

[01:06:16] So I was prepping and I remember while it was going on, but I, I wasn't actively involved

[01:06:21] in that.

[01:06:21] Miles, do you remember that episode?

[01:06:23] It was with Melissa and we, we drove.

[01:06:25] Yeah.

[01:06:25] Melissa Leo episode where we visited her family.

[01:06:28] I get, you know, like her character's family.

[01:06:30] Um, and we shot in St.

[01:06:32] Michael's.

[01:06:33] And we had to drive quite a distance.

[01:06:34] Where did we shoot St.

[01:06:35] Michael's?

[01:06:35] Well, no, well, the location that where the restaurant was and the exteriors outside the

[01:06:40] restaurant and inside, um, the restaurant was at, uh, was at a restaurant called the Island

[01:06:46] View, uh, off of Barrison Point Road, I believe in, um, Essex.

[01:06:52] And actually the, the bar that where, where they went and where the family was, that's now

[01:06:58] gone or closed down, but the little sort of restaurant that looks like it's a house that's

[01:07:04] still there.

[01:07:05] But I don't know if some of it, I get, I can't remember where we went.

[01:07:08] We went somewhere far away by the water.

[01:07:10] With the oyster, with the oyster, with the oyster boats.

[01:07:13] So, yeah.

[01:07:14] So the restaurants were all on the water, but it was at Essex, but the oyster boats, I

[01:07:18] can't remember how far we went, you know, to, to shoot that part.

[01:07:21] It was a big deal to go down there.

[01:07:23] It's like the, the furthest location we'd ever done.

[01:07:26] I don't know if Frank, Frank had it any further on his, but it was a, it was a big deal to both

[01:07:31] be able to schedule it and include all the driving that it would take to go down there.

[01:07:35] And I was trying to remember if we did more than one day there, if we did an overnight,

[01:07:39] which would have been, you know.

[01:07:40] No, I don't think we ever did an overnight anywhere.

[01:07:42] So it was just a big drive.

[01:07:43] Beautiful sunset shots in that, in that episode.

[01:07:46] I think John must've been in a Zodiac or something, you know, going around the big boat, going

[01:07:52] around the big oyster boat, really beautiful stuff.

[01:07:55] But any, any other particularly challenging episodes or episodes that were challenging that

[01:08:00] they turned out at the end, you're like, wow, that was a pain in the ass, but it was

[01:08:03] great.

[01:08:04] Anything like that?

[01:08:06] I would say the subway episode.

[01:08:08] Yeah.

[01:08:08] Subway.

[01:08:09] Yeah.

[01:08:09] With Vincent D'Onofrio.

[01:08:11] Yeah.

[01:08:11] That was, that was the biggest one.

[01:08:13] I mean, we shot all nights for a week.

[01:08:15] It was, that was a tough one.

[01:08:17] Lots and lots of extras, lots of extras that needed to get dressed.

[01:08:21] I mean, you know, we had firemen, we had paramedics.

[01:08:23] I mean, it was like every night was just one, for, you know, four nights in a row is one

[01:08:30] continuous rescue, you know, for every night.

[01:08:32] So whoever we had the day before, they all had to come back the next day and you had,

[01:08:36] you know, firemen, paramedics, extras, you had trains.

[01:08:40] We had the train schedule.

[01:08:43] I mean, there was so much going on on that episode.

[01:08:46] And you had real firemen and paramedics.

[01:08:48] I mean, some of those were real people, not, not, not dressed up actors, actors.

[01:08:52] No, it was a lot of, and then we shot outside of the, you know, the upstairs part.

[01:08:57] You know, we shot outside there.

[01:08:59] It was, there was, that was an episode.

[01:09:01] Yeah.

[01:09:02] And they were two different locations.

[01:09:03] One, the underground one was in front of Hopkins, I think on Wolf Street.

[01:09:06] And the other one was down at the Shot Tower.

[01:09:09] Yep.

[01:09:09] All right.

[01:09:10] Yeah.

[01:09:10] Now you have a great memory, Susan.

[01:09:12] Yeah.

[01:09:13] Well.

[01:09:13] Yeah.

[01:09:14] But that's the one that sticks out, sticks out.

[01:09:16] I think the sniper episode was another big episode that we did that required a lot of episodes,

[01:09:21] you know, a lot of locations and, you know, and being high up, you know, we had to go

[01:09:25] in the Bromaceltzer Tower.

[01:09:27] We had to go here.

[01:09:27] You know, like I just remember being in a lot of places that were high up.

[01:09:33] The Bromaceltzer Tower, which was completely covered in pigeon shit once you got up the

[01:09:38] ladder to go out onto the roof.

[01:09:40] It was like, oh my God, what kind of diseases am I going to get from being up here?

[01:09:45] I'm sorry.

[01:09:45] Go ahead.

[01:09:45] Jay, what were you thinking?

[01:09:46] No, on the subway, which was the most memorable for me as far as, because the other things we

[01:09:54] were dealing with, that ended up being, they were having the network sent us a documentary

[01:09:59] crew that was filming us for Anatomy of a Homicide.

[01:10:04] And that ended up going on PBS.

[01:10:07] It's a good episode.

[01:10:08] It's a really good documentary.

[01:10:09] Yeah.

[01:10:10] But it was random that they ended up there for Subway.

[01:10:13] Um, I'm pretty sure that it's not like they got sent down there because of that episode.

[01:10:20] I think it just was the dates that they were there.

[01:10:22] I could be wrong on that.

[01:10:23] Um, but the, um, it was Vincent D'Onofrio, who's a very, who's very, very intense and only

[01:10:33] wanted to be in his head.

[01:10:34] Didn't want anybody talking to him.

[01:10:36] Um, and then on the other hand was Gary Fleeter, who, um, this is the first time Gary and I

[01:10:43] had worked together, um, which is the case with most of the directors in there.

[01:10:48] But, uh, Gary and I, by the way, just up until, you know, my, my stuff where I stopped,

[01:10:56] um, Gary and I did many shows after that.

[01:11:01] So the irony is that that, that being the first time and Gary being the director that

[01:11:08] I stayed with probably up until just a few years ago when I stopped working.

[01:11:12] Um, but the, and he and I did series together and we did movies together and TV movies and

[01:11:19] stuff.

[01:11:19] But Gary's thing is he said to me, I'm not talking to them.

[01:11:26] I don't want that crew in my face, um, you know, being of the documentary crew and really

[01:11:33] for the most part, Gary would speak to me and, you know, because he also was very intently

[01:11:40] with the story, with the actors.

[01:11:43] And so he would talk to me and then I would take what he said over to anybody else, including,

[01:11:50] um, Alex.

[01:11:52] Was it Alex or John?

[01:11:53] John.

[01:11:53] Alex is a DP on that episode.

[01:11:55] Okay.

[01:11:56] I'll remember the documentary.

[01:11:58] To Alex.

[01:11:58] And so I would be between Alex and Gary.

[01:12:02] Um, and one would talk to me and say, you know, tell him and I take from Gary.

[01:12:07] I don't know if you're miles, if you were around that, but you had so many, I know you were

[01:12:12] dealing with the extras and stuff, but that was very much of the show.

[01:12:16] And, and, um, I think finally at one point, Gary, Gary spoke to the, the documentary crew

[01:12:22] in there, but the two of them having to work with both of them on a very intense episode

[01:12:28] and D'Onofrio being very intense and Gary being very intensely involved in it was, was

[01:12:35] something that I'll, I'll never forget.

[01:12:36] And it's also, I, for me, the best episode and it's Yashimara who wrote it and Yashimara's

[01:12:43] episodes were always so unusual.

[01:12:47] I mean, all the crew, all the writers were great, but Yashimara's episodes always stood

[01:12:52] out in my mind because of the intensity that he put in it.

[01:12:55] And the other thing that was memorable about Yashimara was, uh, Finnerty shooting him.

[01:13:02] Uh, cause Jim, do you remember, do you know this one?

[01:13:06] Tell the story.

[01:13:07] No one's told this story and I've been waiting for it.

[01:13:11] So Kathy, um, who was married to Joe, you know, ultimately, right?

[01:13:16] So Kathy was the POC was, worked just outside of Jim's office.

[01:13:23] Um, Yashimara comes in the office, Jim's pissed off at him for whatever reason or not.

[01:13:30] And then there's a gunshot, like a really loud gunshot, rang through the whole office.

[01:13:39] I remember I was there and, um, cause it was prep time and you hear a scream, you know,

[01:13:46] Kathy, you know, screams in there.

[01:13:49] Yashimara, you hear Yashimara's yell.

[01:13:51] And, um, the people run into the office and Jimmy is, is hysterical laughing.

[01:14:00] And Yashimara is totally freaked out.

[01:14:03] And, you know, what the, you know, and, and then everybody gets that Jim would keep this

[01:14:09] gun in his drawer, but it had blanks.

[01:14:12] It was like quarter loads.

[01:14:14] Or I bet they were quarter loads.

[01:14:16] I bet they were full loads.

[01:14:18] So he could get the big, the biggest bang he could out of there.

[01:14:21] You couldn't do half full loads in the office.

[01:14:23] It was too loud.

[01:14:24] But as it is, maybe it was half loads.

[01:14:26] Cause it was so loud.

[01:14:27] It was loud.

[01:14:28] Um, yeah.

[01:14:29] Yeah.

[01:14:30] And so, you know, other experience of where he, where he shot the gun.

[01:14:35] He shot at me once.

[01:14:36] Yeah.

[01:14:36] Uh, there you go.

[01:14:37] It's like, so yes, that was a true thing.

[01:14:41] I think Rodney French.

[01:14:42] I think he shot Rodney.

[01:14:43] Yeah.

[01:14:44] Well, that was one of his victims once.

[01:14:46] Yashimara.

[01:14:47] Then there's one thing I have to bring up cause it was, it was really, really special, um, in

[01:14:53] terms of the intensity of the day.

[01:14:55] Um, it was the day that they were going to announce OJ's verdict.

[01:15:01] And so Jimmy had extra vans and the entire, the T he had the teamsters lined up and they

[01:15:10] had to stay in their vans.

[01:15:12] And, um, well, you remember it too, Susan.

[01:15:14] We were on location that day.

[01:15:16] On a roof.

[01:15:18] I was on a roof with other teamsters who had, everybody was packing that day.

[01:15:23] Every teamster was packing that day.

[01:15:25] And that neighborhood that we were in, they, it was very dangerous because if they had come

[01:15:31] out with a guilty verdict, they were going to, we were going to have to get our, get our

[01:15:37] asses the fuck out of that town and into the vans and race the hell away.

[01:15:43] But in case there was a riot and you know.

[01:15:46] We had like an exit plan, I think is what we had designed.

[01:15:49] Yeah.

[01:15:50] It was, it was, it was a very intense day.

[01:15:52] What I remember was when, was when the verdict was read and the teamsters had their, had their,

[01:15:57] um, their walkies up to each other's walkies.

[01:16:00] So it got, you know, somebody had it on the radio and then it went around everybody's walkies.

[01:16:05] And, um, when the verdict was read, what you heard in that neighborhood was cheering and

[01:16:09] clapping.

[01:16:10] So, you know, and whether you could predict or not, there would have been a riot and there

[01:16:14] might not have been, but certainly everybody was, everybody that was very, that was a very

[01:16:20] tense day.

[01:16:21] And, um, and the teamsters were ready for sure.

[01:16:25] Which actually, to be honest, scared me more.

[01:16:28] The teamsters all pack and scared me more than what would have happened.

[01:16:33] Just because, you know.

[01:16:35] Yeah.

[01:16:35] That could have got real out of hand very fast.

[01:16:37] Yeah.

[01:16:37] Jeez.

[01:16:38] But yeah, that, that was a, that was a, yeah.

[01:16:40] Who was on the roof then?

[01:16:41] Was that you?

[01:16:42] Who was on the roof?

[01:16:43] Was that you?

[01:16:43] Was that you, Jay?

[01:16:44] So you were up there.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:45] We were on the roof when it was read.

[01:16:47] That's what I recall.

[01:16:48] Yeah.

[01:16:48] I don't remember that one.

[01:16:49] Cause we weren't a lot of roofs also.

[01:16:51] I was prepping with Peter Medak and we were at the Baltimore Museum of Art, um, eating

[01:16:56] lunch.

[01:16:57] And with Peter, and with Peter Medak, it was always a two bottle wine at lunchtime.

[01:17:04] Yeah.

[01:17:04] And a great lunch, I'm sure.

[01:17:06] Oh my gosh.

[01:17:06] Yes, always with Peter.

[01:17:07] He loved his lunches.

[01:17:08] He's fantastic.

[01:17:10] Well, that might feed into one of our questions about any other, any directors you enjoyed working

[01:17:14] with or not, but maybe we should focus on the ones that you did enjoy working with.

[01:17:18] But yeah.

[01:17:19] And actors too, you know?

[01:17:21] Well, the, for me, the, the, the nice part was when the, the crew, like John, when he

[01:17:28] started directing, you know, John, Jay, Kyle and Clark, you know, that's our family.

[01:17:35] And when those people have the opportunity to direct, that was special.

[01:17:39] Cause everybody really, you know, dove, dove in and tried to help them out as much as

[01:17:45] possible.

[01:17:45] That was, those episodes were super special.

[01:17:49] We, we did have some other fantastic directors.

[01:17:52] I mean, uh, wow.

[01:17:54] So many, Kathy Bates, who was amazing.

[01:17:57] I had the opportunity to work with her.

[01:17:59] Her thing was, was very funny.

[01:18:01] He said, you guys with the hats, you guys do your things with the lights.

[01:18:06] You just tell me when the camera's ready.

[01:18:08] I'm going to be speaking to the actors and, and that's what she was.

[01:18:12] And she was just, and the actors loved what they were just loved every word she had to

[01:18:17] say.

[01:18:18] But, uh, and then there was Bruno Kirby who, you know, amazing Bruno, like, wow.

[01:18:24] You know, from the Godfather.

[01:18:25] And then Steve Buscemi who, uh, was nominated for a DGA award.

[01:18:32] So he and I got to go to Los Angeles for the DGA awards.

[01:18:36] And I guess, 1998, uh, that was amazing when that was the year.

[01:18:41] I think that Steven Spielberg won for saving private Ryan.

[01:18:45] So when you go to the DGA awards, you're, you're in this room in the center area with

[01:18:50] all the nominees.

[01:18:51] So here we were the homicide table and there was Steve, uh, there was Steven Spielberg's

[01:18:57] table and Peter Weir and Terrence Malick was nominated that year and Peter, uh, and,

[01:19:05] uh, Roberto Benini.

[01:19:06] Yeah.

[01:19:06] Life is beautiful.

[01:19:07] I remember that one.

[01:19:08] That was phenomenal.

[01:19:10] And even Steve Buscemi was just, oh my God, this is incredible.

[01:19:14] We can believe this Frank.

[01:19:15] I'm like, you know, here I am some kid from Baltimore.

[01:19:17] Steve Buscemi is just like acting nervous and is really, uh, immersed in that whole thing.

[01:19:24] Um, and Catherine Bigelow had an amazing, you know, she's an Academy award-winning director

[01:19:30] and Barry Levinson, of course, was amazing him.

[01:19:35] And, uh, Barbara Koppel, who is a very famous documentarian.

[01:19:39] And she actually won the DJ award in 1998 or 1999.

[01:19:45] Um, she, she won the best director award for, for her episode of homicide.

[01:19:50] That was fantastic.

[01:19:52] Um, yeah.

[01:19:54] So, but it was always special with, with the, the, the home team, but then our, our, another

[01:20:01] group of folks say, you know, we had the Alan Taylor and Nick Gomez and, um, Ken Fink, who

[01:20:09] probably did more episodes than anyone.

[01:20:11] He did, he did the most.

[01:20:12] When, yeah.

[01:20:13] And Peter Medak, it was in that group.

[01:20:15] Like those folks, they were like the home team directors in my mind.

[01:20:20] I mean, because they knew the show, um, the directors respected them for the most part.

[01:20:26] The writers respected them and they were great directors.

[01:20:31] And, uh, you know, they've gone on to do amazing things and, um, we were just blessed to have so

[01:20:38] many, I mean, and there's so many more.

[01:20:40] I mean, Kevin Hooks, he was fantastic.

[01:20:43] Martin Campbell, who did a big 007 James Bond movie.

[01:20:48] Uh, you know, so we had, uh, amazing, amazing people to work with, especially for, for rookies

[01:20:58] like us who were just, uh, like sometimes I couldn't believe that I was standing on the

[01:21:03] same set with some of these people.

[01:21:05] Yeah.

[01:21:05] The directors and then, and then the, the guest, the guest stars we had, there's another

[01:21:10] list of amazing people.

[01:21:11] Well, that's another whole great list.

[01:21:12] I mean, I, I think, you know, Robin Williams is, is one of the most, uh, what?

[01:21:18] To me, I, when I was, I was a second AD when, when Robin was on and during, uh, his episode,

[01:21:25] and I forget what it was called.

[01:21:27] And we had to see, yes, yes.

[01:21:30] Bob, of course.

[01:21:30] Yes.

[01:21:31] Bob.

[01:21:31] So horrible, horrible story.

[01:21:34] And we shot in the actual morgue, the Baltimore city morgue, and you open up a door and there's

[01:21:41] real bodies in that door, you know, in the freezer.

[01:21:43] And that was a, it was kind of an awful place to work.

[01:21:46] And we, we worked there year after year.

[01:21:48] But anyway, my job was to cue Robin outside the door.

[01:21:53] There was a scene where they were looking at the body.

[01:21:55] They were identifying the body of Munch and, and, uh, and Melvin Clark.

[01:22:00] And here, they had about a dialogue or so, a page of dialogue.

[01:22:04] And I had my headphones on listening.

[01:22:06] And then I had to cue Robin to come in right outside the door.

[01:22:11] So it was a couple of minutes, but Robin Williams is just telling me joke after joke, after joke,

[01:22:17] and trying to make me laugh.

[01:22:19] And I'm like, oh my God, this guy is unbelievable.

[01:22:21] And then I would say action.

[01:22:23] And he would walk in the door, seeing his wife on a slab in the morgue, and he would just transform into his character.

[01:22:32] And it was the most amazing transformation that an actor can do.

[01:22:38] It just, you know, this goofy, funny as hell comedian, and then go in and do a pretty damn good job of being a very,

[01:22:48] playing an extremely dramatic role inside a morgue with his dead wife with bullet holes in her.

[01:22:55] And, uh, he was fantastic.

[01:22:58] I mean, just incredible.

[01:23:01] Yeah.

[01:23:01] I'll, I'll jump in.

[01:23:02] Can I jump in on a, uh,

[01:23:04] Oh, you have a good one too.

[01:23:05] Yeah.

[01:23:06] Go, go.

[01:23:07] So, so along with the line, you know, with Robin telling jokes and turning off and on from,

[01:23:13] you know, from his character of being, you know, the victim, his wife was just killed in Baltimore,

[01:23:18] you know, with their son walking around Baltimore and, and, and then he's telling jokes.

[01:23:23] So my job was to stick.

[01:23:26] I was a PA at the time.

[01:23:27] And my job was basically wherever Robin goes, just stick near him.

[01:23:31] Don't like, you know, don't get too close.

[01:23:33] You know, like he's just a super nice guy.

[01:23:35] But, but, but just stay with him in case he needs something or we need him to come to set.

[01:23:39] So Barry was on set then because Robin was there and, and so was Tom Fontana.

[01:23:45] We were in that morgue set.

[01:23:47] I was upstairs in some just green room that they just happened to be hanging out in.

[01:23:52] And Robin Williams went on a tangent and roasted everyone in the room.

[01:23:58] Like the writers were in the room.

[01:24:00] Barry was, and he did his, like, I got to witness Robin Williams in front of like 10 people for, you know, five minutes roasting the,

[01:24:09] like it was the most incredible thing you could ever, you could ever imagine to be part of.

[01:24:14] And it just, to see him being, being Robin, you know, it was, it was really, really incredible, incredible, you know, memory that I have of, of, of that, you know, of those times.

[01:24:26] And I would say that, that when Robin showed up the first day, you know, I show up early and we're, I guess it was, you were out there, Frank,

[01:24:34] we're all like hanging out in the cobblestones.

[01:24:36] It's kind of cold outside in the morning.

[01:24:38] And I like went to his trailer just to make sure some stuff was set up.

[01:24:42] And I come out and we get all hanging out in a little circle on the cobblestones in front of the city pier and Fells Point.

[01:24:47] And I said, so when's Robin getting here?

[01:24:50] And he was literally standing next to me, like, raises his hand and goes, I'm right here.

[01:24:54] It was just like, it was just so funny.

[01:24:57] He was just, anything he did was funny.

[01:24:59] Like he just, he was just a funny guy to be around at any given time, but great experience.

[01:25:05] Yeah.

[01:25:06] Yeah, we had a lot of stars.

[01:25:08] We had Jay Leno was, paid a little, I mean, you just name it.

[01:25:11] I mean, we had just random great guest stars.

[01:25:15] Isaiah Washington, Chris Rock.

[01:25:16] Chris Rock.

[01:25:16] I mean, Chris Rock.

[01:25:17] Yeah.

[01:25:18] We had Mackay Pfeiffer in the shootout.

[01:25:21] Mackay was great.

[01:25:22] Yeah.

[01:25:23] Yeah.

[01:25:23] I mean, the list is endless when it comes to guest stars.

[01:25:26] Kathy Bates, Steve Buscemi.

[01:25:29] One of my biggest memory, you know, my greatest memories of that show was when Steve Buscemi and, no, it wasn't Steve Buscemi.

[01:25:40] It was Richard Edson and Bruno Kirby in the Andre Brouwer episode.

[01:25:46] They arrived to town and they wanted to read lines because they had all these lines with Andre Brouwer.

[01:25:53] So, Jimmy calls me in the office and says, hey, can you, after work, can you go over to the Harbor Court Hotel and read lines?

[01:26:03] Just read Andre Brouwer's lines with Richard Edson and Bruno Kirby.

[01:26:08] I'm like, this is a joke.

[01:26:10] Like, are you kidding me?

[01:26:11] So, I actually showed up to the Harbor Court with sides and I just read Andre's lines just dry, you know, like, but they needed another voice there to really work their craft.

[01:26:22] So, I spent, like, almost two hours there with, like, two of the most amazing actors, you know, and it was just, that was one of my highlights of my career, I would say.

[01:26:33] Yeah, that was the Gas Man.

[01:26:35] The two of them together, what a great combo.

[01:26:37] They were unbelievable.

[01:26:38] The two of them together.

[01:26:39] And just to be witness of just watching their characters develop and just everything about it.

[01:26:44] It was an incredible experience.

[01:26:45] And do you guys remember, did Bruno direct before or after the Gas Man?

[01:26:49] Because the Gas Man was Barry, who directed.

[01:26:52] I think that may have been earlier, right?

[01:26:54] Because I think I was a second AD during that, Jay, right?

[01:26:57] Was that you, Jay?

[01:26:58] With Bruno?

[01:26:59] With Bruno?

[01:27:00] I don't remember.

[01:27:01] Directing.

[01:27:01] I don't remember.

[01:27:01] Because I definitely was a second AD during that.

[01:27:04] So, that was before, that was either the season three or early season four.

[01:27:09] Honestly, I looked at all the titles of the episodes and I was like, we didn't, who thought of the titles of the episode?

[01:27:16] Really, it was on the front page of the script.

[01:27:19] Sometimes I read the synopsis and I still can't remember what the show was about.

[01:27:23] Or I'll watch the show to see if I was on it because I don't remember being on it.

[01:27:29] And then I'll watch the credits.

[01:27:30] I was like, oh, hey, I did that one.

[01:27:32] Thousands of pages.

[01:27:33] Pages, you know, it's just like pages were just something to rip off.

[01:27:38] You know, it's like tell it, we've done it, rip it, throw it away.

[01:27:41] Yeah, you like the rip.

[01:27:42] I remember you ripping off the pages, Jay.

[01:27:45] That was your thing.

[01:27:45] I love ripping off the pages.

[01:27:47] We had a lot of kid actors, too.

[01:27:48] You know, we had Elijah Wood.

[01:27:51] We had Jenna Maloney.

[01:27:53] Is that?

[01:27:54] I forget her.

[01:27:54] Jenna Maloney.

[01:27:55] Yeah, people that weren't necessarily famous at the time.

[01:27:59] We had from 90210, we had Jason Priestley was a director.

[01:28:07] Yeah.

[01:28:08] We had Jake Gyllenhaal was in the Robin Williams episode.

[01:28:12] Jake Gyllenhaal was on the show and his dad was directing, I would imagine.

[01:28:16] Yeah, Steve Gyllenhaal.

[01:28:18] Just amazing guest stars.

[01:28:20] And what a great time.

[01:28:22] And they would all hang out with us.

[01:28:24] Like Kathy Bates, I picked her up and she was at the Harbor Court.

[01:28:27] She's like, I want to go out with you guys.

[01:28:29] I'd pick her up and we all go to Cooper's.

[01:28:30] You know, like, you know, she was same with Richard Edson.

[01:28:34] He was the same way.

[01:28:35] He's like, he wanted to be part of the crew.

[01:28:38] Neil Patrick Harris.

[01:28:39] We all hung out with him one night.

[01:28:42] Yeah.

[01:28:43] Who was the actor who went to the baseball game with?

[01:28:45] Took a couple of those guys to Orioles.

[01:28:46] Yeah, Edward Herman.

[01:28:47] Edward Herman.

[01:28:48] Oh, Ed Herman.

[01:28:50] Oh, he was such a wonderful guy.

[01:28:51] He was a big Oriole fan.

[01:28:53] So he was like, I'd love to go to a game.

[01:28:54] I was like, were you there, Frank?

[01:28:55] Did we?

[01:28:56] Yes.

[01:28:57] Yeah.

[01:28:57] So was it just the three of us?

[01:28:59] I think it was just the three of us, really.

[01:29:00] Yeah.

[01:29:01] Yeah, that was pretty wild.

[01:29:02] Maybe Ivan, too.

[01:29:03] Ivan maybe was there.

[01:29:05] Yeah.

[01:29:05] Because growing up, you know, the Lost Boys, you know.

[01:29:09] Yeah, I worked with him on Overboard.

[01:29:11] And Overboard, right.

[01:29:14] Before Homicide.

[01:29:16] Wow.

[01:29:17] And one thing, backtracking a little bit, I just want to say, I think people also don't

[01:29:22] realize how much, when you do a script breakdown, every scene, you guys had to coordinate with

[01:29:29] specifically everybody.

[01:29:30] What kind of wardrobe is it going to be?

[01:29:32] What kind of props do we need for that?

[01:29:34] You know, what is the set dressing going to be like?

[01:29:37] What kind?

[01:29:37] You know, really was, it wasn't just show up and shoot.

[01:29:41] You had to know what was going to be in every scene and who was going to be there.

[01:29:45] And sometimes it was show up and shoot, maybe if it was an exterior.

[01:29:47] But the idea that, you know, that sort of, you know, really down to the micro of looking

[01:29:54] at a scene and what everything, everything needed to be in place prior to was also part

[01:30:00] of the prep.

[01:30:01] And having to do that without being able to pull, you know, to be able to pull department

[01:30:07] heads off and having to talk to people on the set.

[01:30:09] I mean, it's just really quite a logistical nightmare, I would imagine.

[01:30:13] But we had it down, though.

[01:30:14] We had it down.

[01:30:16] That was the, that's the thing about doing it over and over for so many months.

[01:30:20] You know, we did have it down.

[01:30:21] And you're right, it goes back to the whole preparation period.

[01:30:26] And yeah, our prop department was amazing, you know, Brooke Yaten, amazing.

[01:30:32] And Jeffrey Gordon and Mike Sabo.

[01:30:35] And those guys were all wonderful.

[01:30:37] Everyone was wonderful.

[01:30:38] Lester Poser.

[01:30:39] And also was when you guys said you had, you have more backup with other, you know, like

[01:30:44] coordinators, aerial coordinators or, you know, boat coordinators.

[01:30:48] But back then, you know, when I was listening to all this stuff about Russ, like the armorer,

[01:30:52] we didn't have an armorer.

[01:30:54] We had prop guys that knew what the hell they were doing.

[01:30:56] And we're incredibly professional at coming out, you know, saying when the guns were going

[01:31:01] to be used, showing us the guns, opening the chambers, showing us what was in the chambers,

[01:31:06] making sure the gun wasn't in the hand until somebody said rolling.

[01:31:10] As soon as, you know, the shot was cut, the gun was taken out of their hands.

[01:31:15] So really, like you're saying, there's like multiple responsibilities that may be handled

[01:31:20] by multiple people now.

[01:31:21] We're not handled by multiple people.

[01:31:23] They will handle by, yeah.

[01:31:25] Yeah, correct.

[01:31:26] But when you're, when it's in the hands of somebody like Brooke Yates and Mike Sabo, you

[01:31:30] don't have to worry about any of that stuff because they're complete professionals and

[01:31:34] they, they did the right thing every single time.

[01:31:37] And, you know, and I always, I always added, you know, I always like to add, especially now

[01:31:41] these, well, now, especially, you know, I, I invite the entire crew, especially Susan,

[01:31:46] the camera department, people that are going to be around that gun.

[01:31:48] Listen, everybody should have an opportunity to look at that gun themselves.

[01:31:53] And everyone needs to feel comfortable that there's nothing in that gun.

[01:31:58] And we weren't allowed to point them at anyone either, even, you know, like, so if we were

[01:32:02] going to roll the camera, the person would push the button on the camera.

[01:32:06] And then, you know, I think we would fix the camera at that point and walk away.

[01:32:10] I think even if I remember correctly, or if you're shooting down the barrel, or they

[01:32:14] would shoot above the camera or away from the person, not at the, you know, I can't remember

[01:32:18] how we did it, but.

[01:32:19] Well, you always have Lexan.

[01:32:21] We've had Lexan.

[01:32:21] Yeah, you have Lexan shields, either around the camera, on your face, you know, all that.

[01:32:26] Yeah.

[01:32:27] Yeah.

[01:32:28] So go ahead, Chris.

[01:32:29] Sorry.

[01:32:29] Yeah.

[01:32:30] To go out as a director as an actor.

[01:32:32] So Jay, you became a director yourself on the show.

[01:32:35] So what was that transition like?

[01:32:36] And I've really enjoyed the video I've seen of it.

[01:32:41] Frank was my, because I did three episodes, right?

[01:32:44] So on Homicide.

[01:32:45] Frank was my first on the first and the last one, right?

[01:32:50] Because you did homicide.com with me?

[01:32:52] Yes.

[01:32:53] So first of all, it was all inside.

[01:32:56] It was all family, like they've mentioned before.

[01:32:59] And what I always liked to do on Homicide was keep everything light and fun as much as possible.

[01:33:07] I also came from a place when I was grown, you know, going through the film business from the time I was a PA to a second and everything else.

[01:33:19] And I had been, most of my years before Homicide, I was working in New York.

[01:33:26] I was a New Yorker.

[01:33:28] So it was very important to always be right there on the set, right by the first, right when I was a first, right by the camera operator, right by the DP, depending on, you know, but I was always on set.

[01:33:40] I could watch the actors.

[01:33:41] I could look back.

[01:33:42] I could see the directors once directors started having Video Village, which I think was not good for me.

[01:33:50] If you're a director, you had to be right there on the set as much as possible.

[01:33:53] So once there was that and the videos have me sitting at Video Village too often, but I would be there, all the rehearsals with Jean initially when I was ADing and then with Alex.

[01:34:08] Alex, so Jean and I, when I was first thing, I would be next to Jean, even when with the train of the DP of Boots.

[01:34:18] And I always tried to, you know, for me, the game was going as fast as Jean, getting the signals from the directors and tapping Jean, you know, to change something while he was still busy.

[01:34:32] And, you know, sometimes Jean and I would have a little, mostly we were brothers.

[01:34:37] I felt we had such a beautiful time having fun and having a lot of joking around together.

[01:34:43] Of course, the podcast, for some reason, Jean decided to tell a story about me fucking up.

[01:34:49] But it's like the only time somebody mentions my name is Jean.

[01:34:53] I don't remember that.

[01:34:55] It was like your first podcast is Jean telling a story about weather, you know, as if I decided we should go to weather cover on my own.

[01:35:05] Right.

[01:35:06] But it was like, just to clear my name on that, you know, I'm in touch with Jimmy the whole time.

[01:35:13] It's like, Jimmy, this is what they're calling, you know, it's been raining on the way there.

[01:35:17] And then, you know, Jimmy says, well, fuck it, go to cover, you know.

[01:35:21] And that meant having to call actors that weren't there yet and having to get them to come to set.

[01:35:26] It's a big deal to go to cover if it wasn't, you know, set.

[01:35:31] And then it ended up being a beautiful day and the skies cleared up.

[01:35:34] And Jimmy said no more cover sets after that.

[01:35:37] So that was the chaunting.

[01:35:39] Directing wise, it was because I was known for playing it light and being a jokester on set as an AD.

[01:35:53] Then that's the way you remember me, right, Frank?

[01:35:56] Absolutely.

[01:35:57] It was always light.

[01:35:59] Oh, yeah, Jay, 100%.

[01:36:01] We were too hard.

[01:36:03] We were too hard.

[01:36:03] I mean, there were times when you had to move.

[01:36:07] There were times.

[01:36:08] There were times.

[01:36:10] But that's okay.

[01:36:10] That's right.

[01:36:11] I do remember that.

[01:36:12] I drove everybody crazy.

[01:36:14] So, anyway, directing wise, I had my cards because when I was first starting out as a PA, I'd done the Porky's movies.

[01:36:22] And Bob Clark would do, had the whole film shot, you know, shot listed on index cards.

[01:36:34] So he didn't have an actual list.

[01:36:35] He would do scraps of paper with little diagrams of the way he wanted the scene to play and a description.

[01:36:44] He would give that to his first AD, who was Ken Gotch.

[01:36:49] Ken then, between him and the second AD, Donnie, would...

[01:36:55] No, Kenny did it.

[01:36:56] He would very precisely redo the diagrams, you know, from the torn up paper onto index cards and with compasses and rulers and, you know, make sure everything was beautiful.

[01:37:10] And then have those ready for each day of shooting for the director.

[01:37:14] And so I always remembered how brilliant that was.

[01:37:17] And so I had...

[01:37:19] I just did my index cards and had them with me on the set.

[01:37:24] And you see on that video that Zan was shooting that I'm, on the first day of shooting, throwing...

[01:37:30] Just tossing out index cards for all the shots I wasn't going to get.

[01:37:35] Not happening.

[01:37:36] Because, you know, you always have all those things.

[01:37:40] And watching Zeksevsky, you know, doing...

[01:37:44] He and I, you know, I'd say, all right, here's the shot I want.

[01:37:46] You know, this is the way I'd like to do it.

[01:37:48] And, you know, schwenke.

[01:37:50] Schwenke here, schwenke there.

[01:37:51] And you're...

[01:37:52] Is this not ringing a bell with anybody?

[01:37:55] So you schwenke.

[01:37:57] This is a schwenke.

[01:37:58] This is the shot, right?

[01:37:59] You know, because Alex, you know, you'd go here and then there'd be an actor over here.

[01:38:05] You do that.

[01:38:06] That's a schwenke.

[01:38:07] You know, and I'd find one of the schwenke-schwenke.

[01:38:09] You know, schwenke-schwenke was that and back to that.

[01:38:13] So, and Alex's style was very different from Jean's.

[01:38:17] Because Jean loved moving around all the time.

[01:38:21] And Jean had this eye out looking around, you know, what was going on over there.

[01:38:26] And, you know, he'd have one eye on the...

[01:38:29] And so, you know, in the...

[01:38:32] The eyepiece.

[01:38:34] So Jean would be over here doing this weird shit, looking in that other direction while he still had an eye on the eyepiece.

[01:38:41] And he'd suddenly...

[01:38:43] While we're already doing the train behind him as he's moving, suddenly he'd move like this over to that.

[01:38:49] And everybody had to, like, cross over and run into each other.

[01:38:53] That's AD days.

[01:38:54] So when I'm directing, it's with Alex.

[01:38:57] And so I would...

[01:38:59] Alex.

[01:38:59] And I would joke around with Alex all the time.

[01:39:01] But Alex would...

[01:39:02] I'd tell Alex the way I want it to be shot.

[01:39:05] And he would say, no, no, no, no.

[01:39:07] That's not going to work.

[01:39:09] I'd say, Alex, give me the shot.

[01:39:10] So there'd be a lot of that back and forth.

[01:39:12] He'd say, okay, okay, okay, whatever.

[01:39:15] You know, whatever, fine.

[01:39:16] It's not going to work.

[01:39:17] You know, it's like, I got that shot.

[01:39:20] And Bruce Lateki, who's the sound mixer, would come up to me sometimes and he'd say,

[01:39:27] Jay, I don't think we got this.

[01:39:30] You know, there was a plane.

[01:39:31] I said, where was the plane?

[01:39:33] He'd tell me the line.

[01:39:34] I said, I got that already.

[01:39:35] It's over here.

[01:39:36] As far as the cast goes, they were all, you know, really wonderful to me.

[01:39:41] They were really happy I was doing it.

[01:39:42] I don't think I got much of Andre's stuff in any of my episodes.

[01:39:47] I got a little bit.

[01:39:49] He was gone in season seven, right?

[01:39:52] So two of my episodes were season seven.

[01:39:55] One was six.

[01:39:55] So I had Andre for that.

[01:39:56] We had a nice time.

[01:40:00] But I didn't have as much of him as I would have liked.

[01:40:04] It was newer cast members, like not the original bunch.

[01:40:08] I had some Clark.

[01:40:10] But it was Peter Garrity and, you know, it was Garrity and Callie, right?

[01:40:15] Yeah, Callie Thorne.

[01:40:15] Pretty sure in that first one.

[01:40:16] And Michael Michelle.

[01:40:18] Yeah, Michael Michelle didn't have until season seven.

[01:40:21] And John Seda.

[01:40:21] That was homicide.com and we had a recall.

[01:40:25] Seda was in all of mine.

[01:40:27] Seda was like a buddy.

[01:40:28] So that was I was lucky with that.

[01:40:30] And Clark, too, who, you know, Clark was, you know, I don't know if you ever talked about it.

[01:40:35] Clark was special effects guy before he became, before he started acting on our show.

[01:40:40] So Clark was was crew, had a crew mentality always.

[01:40:45] And so he was a lot of fun and easy to be there.

[01:40:48] As far as my episodes, this show was the easiest show in the world.

[01:40:53] And then when I started directing on non-homicide shows, that everything was was so different for a director.

[01:41:03] You know, for it's like the show was so loose, even for directors.

[01:41:08] The I felt and Frank, I'm sure the same.

[01:41:10] I was giving the directors.

[01:41:14] The guidance as to what they had to do in order to do a homicide episode.

[01:41:19] So when I started directing homicides, I'd already taken all these directors through what the style of the show was and who you know, which actors you could talk to and dare to give direction to and which ones you just let them do their thing.

[01:41:35] Mm hmm.

[01:42:05] The only actor, I think also Andre, but mostly Andre wouldn't do it.

[01:42:10] But Munch was the only actor who is allowed to improvise, who is allowed to change the words.

[01:42:16] All the other ones we were told, you know, when the writers weren't on set, which was fairly often, that the actors have to do the dialogue, have to do the lines exactly as written.

[01:42:31] No changes.

[01:42:31] I think over time they let Andre do more, but Andre didn't want to.

[01:42:36] Andre learned his lines, had it to the letter.

[01:42:39] And if he wanted any changes, he would call the writers and say, you know, how about this?

[01:42:44] There'd be a discussion ahead of time.

[01:42:47] Anybody else who dared to try and make a change, that was not OK.

[01:42:51] And I'm pretty sure we had to call the writers or something like that because they had to.

[01:42:55] And they had spoken to the actors about this.

[01:42:57] You don't change a word.

[01:42:59] That was that was a, you know, fairly common thing we were told because I remember being told that I had to watch for that.

[01:43:09] And, you know, I would tell Lee Bigelow, who is the script supervisor, that, you know, if anything's off to please watch and let me know.

[01:43:18] Otherwise, you know, I just had fun with it as best I could.

[01:43:23] I had a man ponytail, man tail.

[01:43:27] What did they call it?

[01:43:28] What do they call it?

[01:43:30] Man bun.

[01:43:31] Man bun.

[01:43:32] So I had a man bun in just in that season and seen season six.

[01:43:36] So we had Ivan cut it off right before I started directing there.

[01:43:41] We went into the trailer and there was a ceremony.

[01:43:45] And then at the end of it, there was a big party that we threw upstairs in the bar across the street, which was notorious because I'd never been to I'd rarely go to the bar because I didn't drink.

[01:43:58] And I had me, you guys didn't know.

[01:44:02] I never said anything then, but now I'm out of the business.

[01:44:04] So I had between two of the seasons, I had a seizure.

[01:44:09] So I had I had effect.

[01:44:11] I had a seizure disorder.

[01:44:13] I had epilepsy all these years.

[01:44:14] I was in the business.

[01:44:15] So I was always sort of on the edge of playing the game that I wouldn't have anything happen to me ever and did fairly well up until later years.

[01:44:26] And then I had a stroke this year and stuff, you know, I'm sorry.

[01:44:29] No, I'm good.

[01:44:30] I got very lucky.

[01:44:33] So but then, you know, it was weird because I was always playing it.

[01:44:37] You know, we'd be going up on rooftops.

[01:44:39] I went up.

[01:44:41] I remember that when there were scenes in the offices, like in Giardella's offices or the other office that went to.

[01:44:49] What's her name?

[01:44:51] I want to say Hillary, but it's not the other commander.

[01:44:57] Isabel Russert.

[01:44:58] Russert.

[01:44:59] Yeah.

[01:44:59] Yeah.

[01:45:00] So Isabella.

[01:45:01] So I would go up top and I would like where the grips were over being on the beams.

[01:45:07] So I would climb up there so I could watch the scene and be there watching the DP and making sure that the mics and everything because I was obsessive with making sure I always had to be there where the scene was happening.

[01:45:19] And I carried that over when I directed as well as much as possible.

[01:45:22] So why do you if you've gotten to see, you know, some of the the Peacock reboot, but obviously, you know, Homicide, even though it was only available on DVD, you know, was sort of out of the picture for years still has a rabid fan base.

[01:45:37] You know, why do you think it's retained that interest all these years?

[01:45:41] And when you watch it now, and I've said this a million times in the other podcasts, it's really current.

[01:45:47] I mean, it doesn't feel dated.

[01:45:50] And now that it's got the reboot and how pretty it is, it doesn't look dated.

[01:45:55] Anybody want to jump in on maybe start with Miles on why you think it's it's still so good 30 years later?

[01:46:04] You know, it didn't date as a 1990s TV series.

[01:46:08] Yeah, I think a lot has to do with the writing.

[01:46:11] A lot has to do with the acting, you know, the ensemble cast.

[01:46:16] Just I it just it has a lot of energy to the show where you feel the camaraderie of of the actors and the storytelling.

[01:46:28] It all just comes together.

[01:46:30] And I just feel like the entire show just still comes together and is still relevant today.

[01:46:37] I mean, there's been so many other cop shows after this one's hundreds of them.

[01:46:41] But Homicide to me will always be the best.

[01:46:45] Mm hmm.

[01:46:48] Jay, and then we'll finish up with Frank.

[01:46:50] I'm going to go I'm going to go off topic for a minute.

[01:46:54] Not too long.

[01:46:55] Because in the directors directing things, I just remembered homicide dot com was an Internet show when the Internet was still relatively new.

[01:47:05] Mm hmm.

[01:47:35] And then we saw some because we would watch the first one strangle dot stirred.

[01:47:39] We watched them killing the couple, killing the girls in the middle one had the the basically the the abortion, you know, the teenage kids in Kalman part part two or.

[01:47:55] Yeah, I did part two.

[01:47:57] Um, so we saw flashbacks of the birth, you know, happening.

[01:48:02] And in homicide dot com, it was all about this guy doing this ritual murder for the Internet audience on the BBS, which anybody remember what a BBS did for like the bulletin board bulletin board.

[01:48:17] So people would tune in to watch these ritual murders.

[01:48:21] Most, you know, saying how funny they are and they're not real.

[01:48:25] But then it turns out that they're real.

[01:48:26] So I remember that going out there and being really unusual and taking it to a place on the Web and about the Web, which was still a new thing.

[01:48:34] As far as the the new look of it on Peacock, I thought there was so much of what we shot where, you know, John or Bruce would say there's something back there or somebody got in the shot.

[01:48:47] Or when we said extras and the same person would come through twice and we'd say nobody's going to see it because our TVs were maybe 30 inches, 28 inches, whatever it was.

[01:49:02] I got a 75 inch screen now.

[01:49:05] I see everything.

[01:49:06] You know, I was watching one of the episodes and they actually played the same.

[01:49:12] It was the little girl, the high school girls.

[01:49:14] They were they were looking for a killer and they were asking about this killer, you know, who who they might have said.

[01:49:21] And it might have been Kellerman part one.

[01:49:23] But they do the dialogue in a high school hallway where they're interviewing these two high school girls.

[01:49:29] And then it cuts to this is on Peacock that they cut to the exact same dialogue in a record store.

[01:49:39] And it's like, what the hell?

[01:49:42] You know, it's like we did a reshoot or we shot it twice because somebody may have said, you know, the network may have said this doesn't work because why would cops be with two girls in a high school hallway with nobody around them to watch it?

[01:49:58] So instead, we see the cops in a record store with two high school girls with, you know, at least it's in a public place, but still inappropriate.

[01:50:08] So there is that.

[01:50:09] But the other thing about why how did we get to be able to do these six by, you know, these this big frame ratio by.

[01:50:20] When we were shooting on 16 mil, is it the super 16 that allowed for it?

[01:50:24] Good question.

[01:50:25] I need somebody a tech person to explain that because I thought I thought shooting on super 16.

[01:50:30] We were already shooting to the edges, but we weren't.

[01:50:32] And somebody somewhere commented that that what we protected that we protected for 69.

[01:50:38] So.

[01:50:39] Right.

[01:50:40] And as far as handheld, I done I had done other shows that were mostly handheld because I had done a show called The Street in New York, which we shot a lot in Jersey.

[01:50:49] But it was the entire show was night shoots and it was all handheld.

[01:50:57] And it was not on one of the three big networks.

[01:50:59] It was on like W.O.R., you know, in New York, whatever it was, Channel 9.

[01:51:04] But it was playing all over the country.

[01:51:05] But it was that sort of thing.

[01:51:07] As far as it going to Peacock for me, 30 years, you know, I've been it's been killing me that this was one of the greatest shows on TV.

[01:51:18] And the writing was amazing.

[01:51:20] And I want to say the names of all the writers, you know.

[01:51:24] But, you know, Julie and Yash and Eric Overmeyer and Henry Brumell and Tom, of course, who is watching over all of them.

[01:51:34] I mean, it was and.

[01:51:35] Jorge Zamacano.

[01:51:36] All the.

[01:51:37] Yeah.

[01:51:37] Anya.

[01:51:38] Jorge.

[01:51:38] Anya and Jorge.

[01:51:39] And then later Daryl and Joy Lusko.

[01:51:43] Joy.

[01:51:43] Right.

[01:51:43] Daryl, who's in Japan now, who I was going to try and visit when I was in Japan.

[01:51:48] Yeah.

[01:51:48] And Joy.

[01:51:50] These were baby writers at the time, people who worked in the office, who they helped rise up, just like Julie had been Tom's assistant and Jorge had been an office PA, you know, before they became writers on the show.

[01:52:04] And then there were a lot of marriages that happened on the show, like Frank and Bebe.

[01:52:10] Bebe.

[01:52:10] Did you guys know each other before the show?

[01:52:13] We actually met off.

[01:52:16] Yeah.

[01:52:16] We did.

[01:52:17] We met in a bar in Baltimore.

[01:52:18] She was working on Major League Two at the time.

[01:52:22] Got it.

[01:52:22] And Joe and Kathy.

[01:52:24] Yeah.

[01:52:24] Were married.

[01:52:25] You know, both on the show got married.

[01:52:27] I don't know if they knew each other beforehand.

[01:52:29] Ivan and Julie got got married.

[01:52:32] There's there's no way they knew each other before the show.

[01:52:35] Ivan had been in post right in season two or season one before he came over.

[01:52:41] Ivan, who, you know, dissed us all by not showing up here today.

[01:52:45] Um, the but, you know, there was a lot of interaction between everybody because it was the craziness was aside from the hacky sack, um, that everybody spent all this time together during the day.

[01:53:00] And then they would hang out after.

[01:53:03] And that also I've never seen.

[01:53:06] I don't think I've ever seen in Hollywood or New York or anything else.

[01:53:10] You finish, you go and do your life.

[01:53:13] Um, I didn't I I never lived in.

[01:53:17] Well, I did.

[01:53:18] I stayed in apartments.

[01:53:19] But for the most part, my family, um, was in Wilmington, was in North Carolina during that show.

[01:53:25] And so I'd on Fridays, I'd get in my car and I drive home.

[01:53:30] So it was very rare because Friday night was bar night.

[01:53:33] Uh, and also at the end of an episode, usually.

[01:53:37] So is that sort of thing.

[01:53:38] So these guys, this Miles and Frank who put up with my shit for all those years, which was crazy.

[01:53:45] Um, and Susan, who I was berated and everybody on the set that I always gave hell to.

[01:53:51] I'm sure Frank never did that to his crew.

[01:53:54] Never.

[01:53:54] Come on.

[01:53:55] They were family, you know, for Frank, because he had already been a PA in it with all these people from Baltimore.

[01:54:01] You know, so it was good.

[01:54:04] It was special.

[01:54:05] Never sort on anything else.

[01:54:07] So, Frank, why do you why do you think the show is still relevant?

[01:54:10] Well, I think it just goes with what these guys have said.

[01:54:14] It's all about it all starts with the writing.

[01:54:16] What's on the page?

[01:54:17] It always starts with what's on the page.

[01:54:19] And then when you have great writing and you have a great ensemble cast, I mean, it's a no brainer.

[01:54:26] You can't go wrong.

[01:54:27] And, uh, that's exactly the combination.

[01:54:31] Amazing writing and amazing cast all the way through.

[01:54:34] Sure.

[01:54:35] It, it definitely drifted a little bit toward the end as every show will do.

[01:54:40] I mean, seven seasons, 122 episodes.

[01:54:42] That's a long time.

[01:54:43] And it's going to evolve, um, whether or not it's for the better at the end, you know, it's personal preference.

[01:54:52] It was always good in my mind.

[01:54:53] It was always good.

[01:54:56] And, uh, even the, the nature of the handheld, you know, I mean, it, it just, it just, just grabbed you a little more than conventional.

[01:55:06] It was just unconventional.

[01:55:08] It was different, uh, to put it simplistically.

[01:55:12] And, uh, the high quality of the writing and the cast and the way it was done was just, it was just fantastic.

[01:55:22] And it still is fantastic.

[01:55:23] And I can't wait to watch the rest of it.

[01:55:26] Yeah.

[01:55:26] Yeah.

[01:55:27] Good.

[01:55:27] Yeah.

[01:55:28] Do you have time for one more question?

[01:55:30] There's a fun, hopefully a fun question.

[01:55:32] Fun question.

[01:55:33] So, uh, one thing cast and crew have talked about is the food in Baltimore.

[01:55:37] And did you and your team have any favorite bites to keep you going through the long hours?

[01:55:42] Cause we've heard about gizzards and scrapples being popular choices with the Cameron writers.

[01:55:47] So, uh, what was your go-to?

[01:55:49] Well, that's a, that's funny.

[01:55:51] I remember the gizzard sandwich.

[01:55:52] That's God, that's funny.

[01:55:54] I totally remember that.

[01:55:56] That was, uh, that was Joe.

[01:55:57] Joe would run and get those.

[01:55:58] He would get, um, the chicken livers.

[01:56:01] I think they talked about it on their podcast, the gizzards and chicken livers from the Lexington market or even from the Fells Point market.

[01:56:08] Yeah.

[01:56:09] Those are good times.

[01:56:10] Yeah.

[01:56:11] I don't know.

[01:56:11] Deepa Squally's was always my favorite.

[01:56:13] The deepa Squally's Italian sandwiches and subs.

[01:56:17] Yeah.

[01:56:17] I didn't have time to eat.

[01:56:19] Yeah.

[01:56:20] Basically.

[01:56:23] Jay was busy yelling at me.

[01:56:31] I did, I did like the idea of PAs running, but that's true.

[01:56:37] The ADs, the ADs didn't have that.

[01:56:39] Yeah.

[01:56:40] The ADs and PAs.

[01:56:41] Most of the time we, we, we couldn't, uh, you know, peruse menus and Hey, let's try this.

[01:56:47] Unless we're prepping.

[01:56:48] And then that was good because as we know, Jay, it's all about lunch while we're prepping and scouting.

[01:56:54] It's all about lunch.

[01:56:56] Where are we going to go to the restaurant with Vince Baranio?

[01:56:59] And Vince was the, the, the King of Baltimore.

[01:57:01] He knew all the best places.

[01:57:03] So in that respect, food and the lunch trips that we made for, with the director, that was the best.

[01:57:11] Cause we hit every great spot in Baltimore.

[01:57:13] Yeah.

[01:57:13] I would say memorable though.

[01:57:15] You have just a touch on, you know, going out after, you know, Jay was benching how we all hung out as a, we were all family and we all hung out after work.

[01:57:24] We all went to Cooper's.

[01:57:26] Um, Patrick would take care of us at Cooper's.

[01:57:28] We, we would, the grips would go over and do vatine, which is, you know, hang this big black, uh, drapery up over the windows.

[01:57:36] Because by the time we got off a lot of times on a Friday night, um, the bars were closed and we would sometimes roll out of there at six in the morning, you know, and Patrick would have food and drink for us.

[01:57:47] So, um, those were good times.

[01:57:50] Um, you know, like, you know, as a crew, we, we hung out together.

[01:57:54] We just, times were different back then.

[01:57:58] That's for sure.

[01:57:59] Oh yeah.

[01:57:59] I remember when, uh, the, I think the first season only used to shoot at the war for at.

[01:58:05] And, uh, I guess I can say this now, but I, I remember inviting all my friends over, Hey, you guys come be extras, you know, come into the war for at.

[01:58:14] And, you know, sometimes, you know, nowadays they have the near beer and the non-a-cocks.

[01:58:19] These guys would just get beers from the taps and the bartenders would be drinking the real beer.

[01:58:26] And, uh, my friends always loved that.

[01:58:28] Um, Jimmy's not around to know that.

[01:58:30] I never mentioned that, but he'd probably be proud now to, but anyway, that was, that was fun.

[01:58:37] Yeah.

[01:58:38] Yeah.

[01:58:38] Fun times for sure.

[01:58:40] Yeah.

[01:58:40] I mean, I, you know, I'll let Frank say it, but Jimmy, Jimmy said, uh, you know, what was Jimmy saying about the, cause you could say it better, Frank, about how the show is, you know, us being part of the show.

[01:58:51] Well, he always said, he said, you know, you're never going to have it this good.

[01:58:56] You're never going to have it this good.

[01:58:58] And I, I, he was right.

[01:59:00] You know, he, he was right.

[01:59:02] You know, he would always say one hand washes the other, you know, remember who you're robbing.

[01:59:07] So, you know, so for, for Jay and me who had to deal with all these different directors, you know, he would say, well, the directors come and go.

[01:59:15] I'm here every day.

[01:59:16] Just don't forget who your rabbi is.

[01:59:18] And still that maintained that, uh, that approach when, when you, especially when you do episodic shows, because the directors do come and go.

[01:59:28] Although that's changing a lot now because a lot more block shooting and there are fewer directors for each season and it's kind of changed a little bit, but you gotta, you gotta remember who your rabbi is.

[01:59:41] And Jimmy was that rabbi.

[01:59:42] I got another Jimmy.

[01:59:43] I got another Jimmy story thing because I ended up doing a number of other projects with Jimmy over the years.

[01:59:51] Um, and the, the thing about Jimmy, the first time I met Jimmy was when I was a trainee in New York and he was a dolly grip.

[02:00:01] Um, and so I first knew Jimmy as a New York, IA dolly grip.

[02:00:10] And there was a thing like with Teamsters and grips and electrics where production was not, were the bad guys.

[02:00:22] And they would give shit to production all the time.

[02:00:26] And, you know, so you try and get them quiet on the set, whatever it is, like, you know, F off and leave us alone.

[02:00:34] And they had their own way and you had to sort of catch them.

[02:00:37] They would, they would take off.

[02:00:39] You had to really force them to get a call sheet.

[02:00:41] It was different.

[02:00:42] It was, it was pain in the ass.

[02:00:43] And Jimmy was part of that.

[02:00:45] And that's what I knew Jimmy as.

[02:00:46] And, you know, and then I remember seeing Saturday Night Fever and Jimmy was the dolly grip on that.

[02:00:57] And him pulling, you know, that whole opening walk on John Travolta's feet.

[02:01:02] That's Jimmy.

[02:01:03] That was an amazing move because he's going blocks and blocks.

[02:01:07] That's still an amazing move.

[02:01:09] Yeah.

[02:01:09] Yeah.

[02:01:10] Uh, so Jimmy was an amazing dolly grip.

[02:01:12] And the way he ended up crossing over to production manager, did he ever tell you this story?

[02:01:18] Anybody?

[02:01:18] No.

[02:01:19] So he was working on a TV series and I've just forgotten the name of it.

[02:01:24] Um, but it was Bruce Paltrow and I guess Tom also were, um, executive producers on it.

[02:01:33] And, um, it took place around the, the, the Hudson River, you know, on the river.

[02:01:39] And, um, and, um, and then Paltrow, I think is the one who said, and Paltrow was another,

[02:01:48] actually a St. Elsewhere guy also.

[02:01:50] Um, he said, what do you, you're, you're smart.

[02:01:55] You know, it was like, here's a, not to insult any grips.

[02:02:00] Um, but he, the way Paltrow said it was, and this is Gwyneth's dad, by the way.

[02:02:06] Um, and also one of our PAs one year.

[02:02:10] Um, and he said, you, you're smart.

[02:02:14] I could use you, you know, in production.

[02:02:16] I, I, you should be a production manager.

[02:02:18] And that's how Jimmy crossed over.

[02:02:21] It was because they saw him as a grip, but as someone with a special talent beyond that

[02:02:27] and the way he thought and the way that he ordered gear and doing all of that and the

[02:02:31] way he took care of his own crew.

[02:02:34] And they pulled them on that way.

[02:02:36] And I hope none of them are listening to this because they'll just, and that's how the

[02:02:41] whole 12 hour thing came, came on from the Paltrow group and Tom Fontana.

[02:02:46] They decided, I think it was probably on St.

[02:02:49] Elsewhere.

[02:02:49] Maybe a later show.

[02:02:50] I said, you know what?

[02:02:51] We're going to give our directors 12 hours and that's it.

[02:02:55] And we're going to go home.

[02:02:55] We're not going to work 15, 16 hours anymore.

[02:02:57] There's no need for this.

[02:02:59] And they made that decree and Bruce Paltrow and Tom Fontana, uh, you know, and then Jimmy

[02:03:05] got it from them and that was it.

[02:03:07] We had 12 hours and you know what, when your hand is forced like that, you just make it

[02:03:13] happen, you know, and we did it for the most part.

[02:03:16] You can extend this series, this podcast by just naming it after, you know, Jim Finnerty

[02:03:22] and that way you could do all the other shows he did before and after and you'll run for

[02:03:26] years.

[02:03:29] 120, 120 feature films as a key grip, um, as a key grip and pushing the dolly.

[02:03:35] So the dolly is what the camera sits on and moves with track, uh, not our butt dolly track,

[02:03:43] more conventional track and Jimmy's time.

[02:03:45] And, you know, like that, that shot and Saturday Night Fever.

[02:03:49] And as I think his last film, right Jay was, uh, platoon.

[02:03:52] I think it was.

[02:03:54] As a dolly grip.

[02:03:55] I think it's.

[02:03:55] Yeah.

[02:03:56] I have a, I have a, I have a platoon story.

[02:03:58] So I, um, I, I had the honor to work on Snowden as a first AD when they shot in DC.

[02:04:06] Um, and I worked with Oliver Stone and we had to run, we had to use the bathroom at the same

[02:04:10] time.

[02:04:11] So Oliver and I are walking in front of the white house and we had to go to like to Quiznos

[02:04:15] subs, which is a mile away, but that was the only bathroom that was close enough for

[02:04:19] us to go to.

[02:04:20] So Oliver and I are walking together.

[02:04:21] And so I finally, you know, had, you know, I had conversations with him, but nothing personal.

[02:04:26] So I said, yeah, I said, I worked on a TV show with a friend of yours, you know, that

[02:04:29] you worked with on platoon.

[02:04:31] And I said, Jim Finnerty.

[02:04:32] He goes, Jim Finnerty.

[02:04:34] He goes, man, I haven't heard that name in a long time.

[02:04:36] He says, he's come a long way.

[02:04:38] He went from a dolly grip to a production man.

[02:04:40] I think he knew exactly what he did.

[02:04:42] And he's like, he was a good man.

[02:04:43] You know, he was so alive at the time.

[02:04:45] He goes, you know, he's a, he's a good man, Jimmy.

[02:04:46] You know, like he had really good things to say about him, but, but it was just a nice

[02:04:52] conversation to have with Oliver Stone, who would remember the dolly grip from platoon,

[02:04:55] you know, all those years later and to know what he was doing, which I thought was really

[02:04:59] cool at the time.

[02:05:00] Yeah.

[02:05:01] Yeah.

[02:05:01] A memorable guy.

[02:05:02] That's for sure.

[02:05:03] Yeah, that's for sure.

[02:05:04] Yeah.

[02:05:05] You know, we, I certainly wouldn't be here without him.

[02:05:07] That's for sure.

[02:05:09] Well, well done guys.

[02:05:10] Thank you so much for joining us.

[02:05:12] It's been really great.

[02:05:13] Thank you.

[02:05:14] Miles Frank.

[02:05:15] Thank you.

[02:05:16] Thank you all.

[02:05:17] Jay.

[02:05:18] It's great to see you.

[02:05:19] Great seeing you.

[02:05:20] Great to see you, Jay.

[02:05:40] So that was Frank, Jay and Miles.

[02:05:43] And that was such an interesting and detailed chat.

[02:05:45] There's so many little sort of nuggets there.

[02:05:48] And as you mentioned earlier in the intro, their origin story is all quite interesting.

[02:05:53] It is fascinating finding out how people kind of started the business.

[02:05:56] And I don't know if you had any sort of thoughts on that, Susan.

[02:05:58] Yeah, initially, and then I'll talk about the origin stories.

[02:06:02] Initially, one of the things that I really want to reiterate about this podcast is the

[02:06:08] idea that of talking in, you know, in a deep way to crew people.

[02:06:14] I was thinking as we were preparing to do the introductions and stuff for this episode, that

[02:06:21] when I was younger, it happens.

[02:06:23] It still happens now, but happened more when I was younger and when I was in the business

[02:06:26] and I'd be watching the Academy Awards.

[02:06:28] And the director, the producer, the camera, even the cameraman, because it was always a

[02:06:34] cameraman back then, would get up to accept the award and thank everybody but the crew.

[02:06:40] And it drove me the most crazy when the camera people didn't do that.

[02:06:43] They didn't thank the crew.

[02:06:44] The sound guys, I want to say the sound mixers often mentioned their crew.

[02:06:49] It's a little better now, but I just think that really our initial thoughts of doing this

[02:06:56] podcast was to talk to people that nobody ever talks to.

[02:06:59] And you listen to the depth of their experience and the depth of the responsibilities they

[02:07:04] have and how much crew people obviously have to do with making the show, putting it together,

[02:07:12] making it work.

[02:07:14] And in this situation, mostly doing it in a way that most of us appreciated and respected

[02:07:21] and enjoyed because I've certainly been on shows where it's a nightmare.

[02:07:24] The show was not a nightmare.

[02:07:27] So I just sort of wanted to talk about that.

[02:07:30] Yeah.

[02:07:31] The idea that I want to hear from the crew.

[02:07:35] So this has been really fun for me.

[02:07:37] And the origin stories, I thought it was interesting that they mostly started as PAs, but then Jay

[02:07:44] got into the DGA training program, which was similar to the camera assistant training program

[02:07:50] that I got into and how I got into the business.

[02:07:52] And I'd have to look up and see if those things are still, if those are still happening.

[02:07:58] Are there more people coming up through independent films and managing to get enough hours and

[02:08:02] get into the union?

[02:08:03] Or is there still a DGA training program?

[02:08:06] Is there still a camera assistant training program?

[02:08:09] I don't know.

[02:08:09] I have to like call some of my friends in LA and find out that they're still happening.

[02:08:14] But yeah, I really enjoyed their insights.

[02:08:18] Yeah, indeed.

[02:08:18] And it was a couple of interesting things that stood out for me.

[02:08:22] So the first one was apparently the average age of an assistant director is 54 years old.

[02:08:28] And I could only assume that might be just down to due to the stress that they only last up and down.

[02:08:33] Yeah.

[02:08:33] I don't know if it was average age or that was as long as they last.

[02:08:38] Yeah.

[02:08:38] Sorry.

[02:08:38] Average life expectancy.

[02:08:40] Sorry.

[02:08:40] Life expectancy.

[02:08:42] A lifespan of a first AD.

[02:08:44] Right.

[02:08:45] Early 50s.

[02:08:46] And it's not easy.

[02:08:47] I mean, I've never, well, I've been an assistant director on some short films.

[02:08:51] And certainly the first ever film I worked on, quite a lot of the crew mutinied and left.

[02:08:57] And so I kept getting up and up the ranks.

[02:08:59] I think I got as far as third AD from being a production assistant.

[02:09:02] But I've watched ADs in action on some big TV shows, and there's a lot of weight on their shoulders and a lot of decisions that cost a lot of money.

[02:09:11] And there's a lot of different sort of people to please because they're delicate art between the kind of the story needs of the show and then the practical needs for the production.

[02:09:21] Because you've only got so much time to be able to do things.

[02:09:24] And what was, I don't know if it's, well, I suppose in some ways it is unique because a filming day is usually more than 12 hours on a lot of shows.

[02:09:34] And so what was interesting about Humpherson, obviously you had to squeeze a lot in in 12 hours.

[02:09:40] And so there is obviously a lot of pressure to make the day.

[02:09:44] And the ADs are the people who ultimately they and the director have to make sure it happens.

[02:09:50] And so I can understand why quite a few ADs usually either have moved on at the age of 54, either physically or career wise.

[02:10:01] But, you know.

[02:10:02] Or just a wreck.

[02:10:03] Yeah.

[02:10:04] They're just wrecked by them.

[02:10:05] Yeah, indeed.

[02:10:06] Indeed.

[02:10:07] So it's, yeah.

[02:10:08] Yeah.

[02:10:08] And one of the things, same thing, a little bit of what I mentioned earlier is, you know, being on the set.

[02:10:14] I mean, I could bitch as a camera assistant, you know, getting there before 7, start rolling at 7, wrap at 7.

[02:10:22] But then we have to take all the equipment to the truck, wrap the equipment, and then go home.

[02:10:27] And for me was if, you know, if there wasn't any traffic, maybe half an hour, really not a bad commute, half hour commute.

[02:10:33] So you're talking about, you know, being at work before 7, getting home by 8 if you're lucky.

[02:10:42] But then when you listen to what Miles said as a PA and as a second and a second second, he's on the set.

[02:10:48] I'm getting up at 5.30 in the morning.

[02:10:50] He is on the set.

[02:10:52] He is at the location at 5.30 in the morning.

[02:10:54] He's there an hour and a half before the crew has to be there.

[02:10:57] And then we wrap, and he had to wait.

[02:10:59] And I remember this, he had to wait for us to be bused in the vans back to wherever the trucks were stationed.

[02:11:07] And usually because we were so close off, often all the trucks went back to Svel's Point.

[02:11:14] And then he had to wait until every department, grip and electric, camera, wardrobe, hair and makeup, everybody wrapped their trucks.

[02:11:21] The trucks are closed up and locked.

[02:11:23] And then he's putting call sheets underneath the doors of actors.

[02:11:31] Now, that I also hadn't thought about.

[02:11:34] And driving home and stopping at people's apartments and houses and having to do that in the days before computers and electronic transfers and emails of all that kind of stuff.

[02:11:49] That it was all hand done, you know, handwritten call sheets, typed call sheets, the changes if we had.

[02:11:56] And they said it was rare if we had a call time change written in a red Sharpie on 100 plus call sheets.

[02:12:05] So, yeah, it was great insight for me, too, to hear, you know, what they were doing when they weren't on the set.

[02:12:12] I certainly saw what they did on the set, but I did not see what they did before.

[02:12:17] And I rarely went to probably the only time I ever went to a production office on a show was when I'm signing my deal memo, you know, not not on any daily basis.

[02:12:29] Am I in am I in the production office before or after the shoot?

[02:12:34] So, so, yeah.

[02:12:35] Yeah, it was interesting insight.

[02:12:37] Just homicide was made before this software came out called Movie Magic, which is this scheduling software that makes making the schedule a lot easier because in the old days they had to do it by hand.

[02:12:46] So they would print out is it a line by line of what the schedule would be?

[02:12:51] And then they would physically cut the paper and then put it onto something called strips and put it on something called a strip board to then make the schedule,

[02:12:57] which I guess they would then photocopy the strip board to then make the schedule, which is insane.

[02:13:03] But yeah, absolutely insane.

[02:13:05] It made me think back to when I first started working after homicide, when I became a journalist and I started in the journalism business before computers were being used heavily.

[02:13:14] I mean, there were, you know, there were computerized things.

[02:13:16] But, but that was in the day when, when the newspaper was pasted up on a wax board, you know, and then photographs were made literal, you know, large, large scale negative photographs were made of each page after, after everything had been pasted onto this wax board.

[02:13:35] And then they went back with sharpies.

[02:13:38] And if there were little holes or white spots, you know, in the negative, they had to go back with the sharpie and block it, black everything out.

[02:13:46] So it just reminded me that, but the difference of what, you know, the, the beginnings of, of, of, of the computer age coming through those processes in the newspaper business and also in production.

[02:14:27] Yeah.

[02:14:29] And it hit the ground running.

[02:14:30] And it's, it's good that like, at least with homicide, there was some element of kind of nurturing people, which is quite rare in this business.

[02:14:37] Yeah.

[02:14:37] And also an insight there that Frank was the only local second that was in the union yet.

[02:14:45] The only assistant director, local second.

[02:14:47] And, and this push, which I also didn't know when I worked on the show and that one of the ways they kept everything, um, on budget was to hire as many local people as they could.

[02:14:58] So it wasn't let's fly in the camera crew grip and electric from LA.

[02:15:02] It was like, get everybody from here.

[02:15:05] So, and he mentioned Shelly Ziegler, who was a huge is now and had been, she was the first on homicide, but also went on to do huge movies and is still working.

[02:15:14] And she was not in the union yet either.

[02:15:18] Um, when Frank was brought in and, uh, and also reminded me of, of, of Josh Spring story.

[02:15:25] Um, when he switched over from being the key grip to the gaffer and Finnerty was like, no, you're going to do it.

[02:15:30] Which is what, which is what Finnerty said, said to, to Frank, you're it.

[02:15:36] You know, there's no saying no in this situation.

[02:15:40] Um, and then the whole idea, they all talked about learning on the job.

[02:15:45] You know, we talked about, they talked about themselves as kids.

[02:15:48] We were all kids learning on the job, um, which is interesting.

[02:15:52] And then even for me, and you know, I had quite a bit of experience coming from LA, but on completely different kinds of films.

[02:16:00] You know, I had never worked on, on a film that was shot like this.

[02:16:04] So even for me, it was a learning curve because I'd never worked on, on a set, uh, with a roving 16 millimeter camera.

[02:16:12] But, or even in all my whole time in LA, I never worked with a 16 millimeter camera.

[02:16:16] I hadn't worked with 16 millimeter camera since college.

[02:16:18] Those are great cameras though.

[02:16:20] Got to say.

[02:16:20] They are.

[02:16:21] Yeah.

[02:16:21] Yeah.

[02:16:21] Yeah.

[02:16:22] The art on and, and the equivalent of that would be the Ari S or three or two, uh, lovely cameras.

[02:16:28] Yeah.

[02:16:28] A couple of other notes that made me chuckle was the fact that apparently, um, uh, Jay mentioned a lot of people have conflicting, uh, memories about what actually happened on the, on the show.

[02:16:37] And the other funny thing was how Seinfeld influenced rap times on the show.

[02:16:42] I found that quite amusing.

[02:16:43] Those things are like, I'd never heard of before.

[02:16:45] I don't remember that.

[02:16:47] I even remembered, I thought we were on Thursday nights, but we were on Friday night.

[02:16:52] So I don't know why I thought we were on Thursday night, which is funny.

[02:16:56] Yeah.

[02:16:57] After, after homicide, Frank worked on, you know, the next David Simon book, The Corner, and then The Wire, and then went to, uh, New Orleans.

[02:17:07] And worked on Treme.

[02:17:08] He worked on House of Cards.

[02:17:11] Like, you know, Lorenzo was the mixer, uh, sound mixer on House of Cards.

[02:17:15] He worked on Walking Dead.

[02:17:17] And, and now, I guess still, right before he spoke to us, was still working on, um, Lioness.

[02:17:24] Yeah.

[02:17:25] Which is a Paramount Plus show.

[02:17:27] Yeah.

[02:17:27] Yeah.

[02:17:28] And then, yeah, Jay as well.

[02:17:29] I mean, like, you know, Jay's been on lots of things.

[02:17:31] He's not only been an assistant director, but he's also sort of directed a lot of things as well.

[02:17:36] He was director of Dawson's Creek.

[02:17:37] He's been on Chicago Hope.

[02:17:39] Uh, The Agency, which was one I, I liked.

[02:17:42] It's a CIA-based show.

[02:17:44] And, uh, yeah, he's been an assistant, assistant director on a show called Next.

[02:17:48] Uh, he's been on Tom Clancy's The Pledge.

[02:17:51] And Law and Order.

[02:17:52] Loads of things.

[02:17:53] Law and Order.

[02:17:54] October Road.

[02:17:54] Yeah.

[02:17:54] And Brockmire.

[02:17:56] I just recently saw the first episode of Brockmire.

[02:17:58] It's on a streaming thing.

[02:18:01] I don't get.

[02:18:01] Yeah.

[02:18:01] But it was so good.

[02:18:04] Really funny.

[02:18:05] And he was on The Crow as well, which is the infamous film.

[02:18:09] Do you remember the one with Brandon Lee?

[02:18:10] Oh, gosh.

[02:18:11] That was a great movie.

[02:18:12] Yeah, the original.

[02:18:13] Yeah, yeah.

[02:18:14] He was on that.

[02:18:15] And then, you know, Miles has worked on loads of things.

[02:18:18] Miles has been on Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan, Snowden, Veep, The East, which is a great spy film.

[02:18:23] And then America's Most Wanted, which is obviously the TV show about real crimes.

[02:18:28] Yeah, I meant to ask him.

[02:18:29] I had it in my notes.

[02:18:30] I meant to ask him if he saw similarities.

[02:18:34] And because obviously America's Most Wanted was a crime show and a reality show.

[02:18:40] It was very run and gun.

[02:18:41] And, you know, I know I heard people talking about their ridiculous hours and how difficult,

[02:18:48] difficult, I think, logistically it was working on the show.

[02:18:52] But I meant to ask him if he saw any parallels between the way we shot Homicide, which was

[02:18:58] obviously a dramatic series, you know, in relation to America's Most Wanted in a reality

[02:19:05] cop show.

[02:19:07] But I didn't.

[02:19:07] I forgot to ask.

[02:19:08] Oh, well, I have to do a follow up.

[02:19:11] Yeah, and I think that the whole idea of people getting a better sense of the enormous

[02:19:15] responsibility and logistics that they had to deal with.

[02:19:18] Like, I only had to deal with the camera crew.

[02:19:20] I mean, I've worked with everybody else, but they had to be in every department and understanding

[02:19:25] what they needed, what they had to have.

[02:19:28] I mean, that really is an amazing amount of responsibility and logistics that the assistant

[02:19:32] directors deal with, which helped make the show run smoothly and be successful.

[02:19:40] Obviously, they kept it, helped keep it on schedule, which helped it be successful enough

[02:19:46] for NBC to keep picking it up for seven seasons.

[02:19:50] Yeah.

[02:19:51] Yeah.

[02:19:51] Because, yeah, they've gone over schedule and over budget that, you know, the show would

[02:19:54] have been cancelled a long time ago.

[02:19:56] So, no, no, they're the, you know, as I said earlier, the glue that holds it all together

[02:20:00] and, you know, in many ways, very underappreciated a lot of the times.

[02:20:05] But I think the ADs are, you know, vital parts of the show.

[02:20:09] So I'm glad we managed to chat with them and get insight from such sort of established assistant

[02:20:13] directors, really.

[02:20:14] They've done, you know, amazing careers they've had since Homicide and obviously working on

[02:20:18] Homicide itself, which is a fantastic show.

[02:20:20] So, yeah.

[02:20:21] Yeah.

[02:20:22] And fun.

[02:20:22] It was so much fun catching up with them and talking to them and funny and funny stories

[02:20:26] and just really, it was really enjoyable talking to the three of them.

[02:20:29] It was great.

[02:20:30] Fantastic.

[02:20:31] Well, I hope everybody enjoyed that interview and thank you very much for listening and we

[02:20:34] will catch you on the next one.

[02:20:37] Until then, take care.

[02:20:38] Bye.