S1 Ep12: Nick Gomez & Jean De Segonzac

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award winning television show, Homicide Life On The Street, with myself, Chris Carr, and Susan Ingram. On today's podcast, we are joined by director Nick Gomez, and cinematographer and director, Jean De Segonzac.

[00:00:39] Hello, everybody. I hope you're all well. Today, we are joined by Jean De Segonzac and Nick Gomez, and they are the two men behind Laws of Gravity, which for maybe some regular listeners will know, Laws of Gravity had a huge influence on the look and style of Homicide. Before we begin, Susan, how are you doing?

[00:01:28] Good, good. And yeah, I thought this was a really, really good episode. You can really hear the enthusiasm in their voices, the way they talk. They talk about this show with such love, because I think it was a really fun, creative, well, I know it was, because they say it, fun, creative process for them. And I think that that really comes through. And the fact that they had the experience together on Laws of Gravity, which was absolutely brought,

[00:01:58] the techniques from Laws of Gravity were absolutely brought to the show in the second season when Jean started. And they talk about that. They talk about how that happened and what they brought to the show with that.

[00:02:13] But so Nick directed six episodes from 1993 to 98. And Jean was the cameraman from 1994 to 97 and shot 53 episodes and then also directed six episodes. But it's just a really great look at their creative processes and how much, and they say this, how much joy they had with that particular kind of filmmaking in Laws of Gravity

[00:02:41] and also bringing that to homicide. And I love that we've revisited Jean and the look because that's why this podcast came to be was because Chris contacted me to talk about how the show was shot, because he was particularly interested in the look of the show. So fabulous. This is a fabulous conversation. I hope everybody really enjoys it.

[00:03:03] Yeah, I really enjoyed it a lot. Learned quite a few little things here or there. So without further ado, let's jump into the episode and we'll catch you on the other side.

[00:03:29] Nick and Jean, welcome to the podcast. How are you both doing?

[00:03:33] Hi there.

[00:03:34] Excellent. Thank you for having us.

[00:03:36] Thank you so much for having us.

[00:03:37] It was great to have you both on. And no, it's a real honor to have you both on because you're the two men who are behind Laws of Gravity that, you know, as we talked about with Jean, had a big influence on this show, which we'll get into in a little while. So Susan, I'll hand over to you.

[00:03:52] Okay. Yeah. Hi, you guys. Great to see you again, Jean. Great to see you. And Nick, haven't seen you in three decades.

[00:03:58] So good to see you.

[00:03:59] You don't look much different.

[00:04:01] Yeah. And so, yeah, like Chris said, we wanted to talk to you both. Jean was our very first guest back in March when we first started the podcast and we started the podcast even before it had started streaming.

[00:04:14] So we were talking to people before it was even really available besides, you know, the DVDs or, you know, at your local library.

[00:04:20] So as we've gotten into it and talked to a number of actors and crew people, we wanted to come back to talk about the look again, but how you, Nick, influenced that and how you and Jean got together for your film Laws of Gravity, which is an amazing film and also, you know, multiple award winner film.

[00:04:42] So, but before we get to that, why don't you give us a little background? How did you get your way? How did you make your way into filmmaking and directing? How did you get to Laws of Gravity?

[00:04:52] Well, I got to Laws of Gravity because someone was silly enough to give me $30,000 to make a movie, which is the first mistake any producer can make.

[00:05:01] So, you know, I was working with a bunch of guys in New York called the Shooting Gallery and I was an assistant to a guy named Hal Hartley, who was a well-known independent film guy.

[00:05:13] And I was writing scripts and stuff like that and some of them were getting read by people. They seemed to like them.

[00:05:20] And, but we were having trouble raising money for a script that I had.

[00:05:24] So, uh, I had just seen Molinoche, Gus Van Sant's movie. And I thought that, okay, well, if, if he can make a film for like 15 grand, maybe I can too.

[00:05:33] And I described that film as a sort of a two, two clamp lamp and Bolex film. Um, and that's sort of what I thought that Laws of Gravity would be when I started writing that.

[00:05:42] Um, sort of based in the, the script was kind of based on the knuckleheads that I knew the older brothers of the, of the people I knew growing up.

[00:05:49] Um, John and I had connected yesterday on the phone. Um, and John was reminding me that the script was absolutely terrible.

[00:05:57] And I said, well, don't worry about it. We'll, we'll figure that out in the rehearsal process.

[00:06:01] So, you know, basically, you know, it's like I had the, I had a gimmick in mind and the gimmick was in the middle of the night on cable TV, you would turn this on and you'd think it was a documentary.

[00:06:12] That was really, that was really the teensy tiniest little idea that I had. And then I put the word out and it has a script was sort of like finalized.

[00:06:21] And we've, we realized that we had, we could raise $35,000 from a guy named Larry Maestrick, who was one of the founders of the shooting gallery.

[00:06:27] Um, I wrote it for the locations that I knew that we could use in Williamsburg, you know, the neighborhood that I lived in the bar that I would go to and all the streets and all that kind of the old Williamsburg that no longer exists.

[00:06:40] And, uh, and then I put the word out. Um, I need a really great handheld cameraman and a woman named Sarah Vogel, who John reminded me of yesterday was the person that said, John to Sagan's act use that guy.

[00:06:51] And then I sent John the script and we met John said, this is terrible. Um, but he was willing to come along anyway.

[00:06:59] And, um, and really, it was really sort of, it was, it was John's ability. And I was, you know, I had no idea how great he was at the art of handheld.

[00:07:09] Um, but he was really just an artist and a lot of the reviewers sort of talk about him, um, being a fifth player on the set, you know, very, being very involved.

[00:07:19] Uh, John is very much like a moves, like a dancer. John is very into modern dance also. I know he, he and I share that sort of interest.

[00:07:26] Um, and so it really just sort of came together. It was like the, the project was very sort of blessed in a lot of ways. We had a, I wrote for a lot of people that I knew from SUNY Purchase where I went to school.

[00:07:39] Um, you know, Edie Falco, Adam Tracy, uh, um, Peter Green walked through the door, you know, he gave him the lead. It was going to be James Gandolfini.

[00:07:49] But then Peter Green came through the door. James Gandolfini had a little bit more sort of social authority and, and, and was a more of an in control person.

[00:07:59] Peter Green didn't have that quality. He felt more like a real street guy.

[00:08:04] Uh, so I, I sort of had to sort of pass off to James and James and I remained friends after that. But, um, it, it, that's how it all sort of came together.

[00:08:14] It was very sort of simple and, you know, and John was doing things, uh, making dreams come true, like being in the backseat of a car and then, and then, you know, being able to jump out and, and, and continue into the scene.

[00:08:24] And I was really into, I was really into long takes. I was really into, and John was able to do that beautifully. Um, because I had this weird idea in my mind that a single take was more honest.

[00:08:39] And I was really like, I didn't want, I didn't want the, anything in the film to ever feel like the cameraman got there before us as the viewer.

[00:08:47] I always wanted it to feel like a ride along as much as possible. And I had one POV shot, which was a cutaway of Peter Green in a bar looking at something, which tortured me to do.

[00:08:58] Cause it, in my little mind at the time that felt dishonest cause I wanted everything to sort of like be pure, uh, and to exist in real time.

[00:09:07] And John was the guy that was able to sort of like make that happen.

[00:09:10] Yeah. Talking about following in the little making of video that you sent us, there's a, there's a shot that starts off, I think, with the shot of the, the car running up to the curb where, where the one, one of the many fights is happening in front of the bar.

[00:09:27] And John is in the back seat, holding the door open, holding the back door open while the car's driving, obviously, you know, getting maybe some swing shots on the, you know, on the, the, the driver and the passenger.

[00:09:41] And the entire sound crew is on the outside of the trunk, unlike in homicide where, where Bruce Leteke used to be inside the trunk.

[00:09:50] They were even in a more danger situation.

[00:09:52] Yeah.

[00:09:53] But then John gets out and walks around and goes in and confronts, you know, as I think you said, in one of the quotes in that, um, in that making of video, you talk and talk about the, basically wanting the cameraman running after the actors to try to catch up with them, getting their performances, the stressing that style, verite, roaming camera, much like, you know, a news crew running into some sort of melee in the street somewhere.

[00:10:19] So, so, so John, so jumping over to John, hanging out the back of the car.

[00:10:23] So we, we know from talking to you on the first episode, um, you were doing documentaries, uh, you know, had started off very, you know, doing everything on the shoots and, and in addition to developing the film.

[00:10:37] But what, what, what were you doing exactly when, when Nick contacted you for this?

[00:10:42] Where were you in your career and then making, I assume, I'm pretty sure this is your first leap into dramatic filmmaking, correct?

[00:10:50] What were you doing?

[00:10:51] And, and tell us a little more about that, that first interaction and getting on the, on Laws of Gravity.

[00:10:55] Well, at that time I was, uh, shooting documentaries, but, uh, documentaries are mostly a frontline and Nova and, uh, National Geographic, uh, spots, uh, West 57th Street, 60 Minutes.

[00:11:11] And, and of course my dream was always to do the very tame movie like, uh, The Maisels or, or Frederick Wiseman.

[00:11:19] So anyway, I wanted to do that kind of film, uh, but, uh, the opportunities were very far and few in between.

[00:11:26] In fact, the only films in which I was able to do this sort of camera work were on independent films or, or films, uh, documentaries I work on for free.

[00:11:34] They had a different, um, uh, sensibility than doing a frontline or Nova.

[00:11:39] And, um, and, uh, but what was happening at that time in my life is that, uh, my daughter was about to be born and my wife came up to me and said, you know,

[00:11:48] this business of you traveling around the world for six weeks at a time, sometimes three months gone away, uh, where you can't call home.

[00:11:54] This has got to stop.

[00:11:56] And so, um, and I had, I had also gotten a little, um, uh, disenchanted with documentaries since the video come in and we're sitting for three hours doing interviews.

[00:12:07] It was so boring.

[00:12:08] And, uh, and I was, uh, fascinated by narrative film.

[00:12:11] So I put the word out that this is something for anybody who wants to get into filmmaking.

[00:12:16] You got to let people know, you got to let them know that you're interested and that you're looking.

[00:12:21] So everybody I saw, everybody I worked with said, you know what I really want to do?

[00:12:24] I want to work on a narrative film.

[00:12:26] You know, I want to get into storytelling with that kind of stuff.

[00:12:29] I can play with the lights and all this kind of stuff.

[00:12:32] And then, uh, Sarah Vogel called me up and said, well, you know, they're, they're interested in talking to you.

[00:12:36] And I had to bring my reel.

[00:12:38] I was a bit embarrassed.

[00:12:38] It was just a documentary stuff.

[00:12:40] And then, uh, Nick saw it and said, you got the job.

[00:12:44] And I was so elated.

[00:12:45] And I thought, this is going to be great.

[00:12:47] I'm going to have dollies.

[00:12:48] I'm going to have cranes.

[00:12:49] And we're going to do the, the movie, movie.

[00:12:52] And then, uh, Nick said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:12:55] We're going to do it just like, uh, you've been doing it.

[00:12:58] We're going to do a documentary.

[00:13:00] In fact, Nick had the idea that I would not be shown the scene.

[00:13:04] The actors were rehearsing.

[00:13:05] I'd be brought in like a blind man and, uh, go ahead.

[00:13:09] Shoot.

[00:13:09] Whatever it is that you see.

[00:13:11] Uh, likely we went a step further and did a rehearse with the camera.

[00:13:16] But, um, and I just watched it two nights ago.

[00:13:19] And I, I completely forgotten.

[00:13:21] I'm, I'm utterly astonished that, uh, there were so many long takes.

[00:13:24] And, and the camera seems to be moving and listening and, and, and finding what's going

[00:13:29] on in, in a very, uh, fluid kind of way.

[00:13:33] And, um, I, I'm completely amazed.

[00:13:37] The, the ending was still so moving 30 something years later.

[00:13:42] Yes.

[00:13:43] The ending, you sort of feel like you've been punched in the face when the screen goes, you

[00:13:49] know, when, when the movie ends, it's, you just, I just, I think I just sort of sat there

[00:13:53] and shook my head like, wow, really what a confrontation with another lifestyle.

[00:14:00] Lifestyle I don't have, you know, what a confrontation with seeing somebody else's, like survival,

[00:14:08] surviving in a certain set of circumstances, right?

[00:14:11] How do you survive in that circumstance?

[00:14:13] Amazing stuff.

[00:14:14] And that was totally, uh, Nick's, uh, directing, you know, he said, okay, shit's going to happen,

[00:14:20] but we don't want to actually see it happen.

[00:14:22] So, so the whole idea was to be off, not see the guy get shot.

[00:14:25] Then suddenly there's a bang and everyone drops to the ground.

[00:14:29] And brilliant, really good.

[00:14:31] Nick, I was going to ask about where the, where this sort of philosophy came for the

[00:14:36] long takes being honest.

[00:14:37] Where, what are the sort of the origins of that?

[00:14:39] Because it's really interesting.

[00:14:40] Philosophy is a, a, a big word, Chris.

[00:14:43] It was more, I think, I, I, there was just, there was just something about the purity of

[00:14:50] it that I just, and I don't know why I just kind of held onto it.

[00:14:53] Um, there, you know, there's a, there's a purity and a simplicity of that.

[00:14:58] And I've held onto that ever since.

[00:15:00] Like even now when I'm doing stuff that obviously demands more different types of traditional

[00:15:04] coverage, I always try to build one single one or into it that serves as a, has a spine

[00:15:11] for the, for the, for the skeleton of the scene itself.

[00:15:14] Cause I just feel like if I can, if I can figure out how to create a scene where everything

[00:15:19] is moving in a way and everything is connected organically, um, and there's no artificial

[00:15:26] cutting going on.

[00:15:27] And the, I feel like there's a purity to that.

[00:15:30] And also there's a, there's an, there's also kind of in a weird, in the lack of control

[00:15:34] cause you're dependent on your, on your operator and your actors.

[00:15:37] There's also a kind of control because it's hard for other third parties to go in there and

[00:15:42] snip that up in a way.

[00:15:43] Um, and cause I, cause that, that can be confounding sometimes is that your scene gets cut, uh,

[00:15:50] in a way that like is a, can, can be a little bit head scratching.

[00:15:53] Um, you know, when you're working in this medium so that both John, there was a scene where

[00:15:58] we, where we kept the rehearsal in, where we literally like brought you in to rehearse

[00:16:03] with the camera.

[00:16:05] And I nudged you to turn the camera on and the cast was not aware of it.

[00:16:09] And it was your first time seeing it was when all of them are all sort of, it was after

[00:16:13] Adam Tracy was let out of jail and they're all sitting around a table, kind of making

[00:16:16] fun of him, drinking beer and stuff.

[00:16:18] That was all a rehearsal.

[00:16:19] And that was John's first time seeing it.

[00:16:21] And that was all one big long take.

[00:16:24] And, uh, and it ended up in the movie and there's just, there's just something I've

[00:16:28] also really like always embraced to the chagrin of some of the associates that I've

[00:16:33] worked with accidents, right?

[00:16:35] I think John likes that too.

[00:16:36] I love accidents that happen.

[00:16:38] I love it when someone bumps into the camera or the, or the focus gets thrown off

[00:16:42] or something unexpected happens.

[00:16:44] Cause that's when the world is, is talking to you, right?

[00:16:47] That's when, that's when the, the, the world is giving you artistry that you have not

[00:16:51] pre-imagined.

[00:16:52] Uh, and, and it's always, it's always, it's always nice to, to discover things as you go

[00:16:56] along and, and, and to be taught lessons from, from, from a mistake as it were.

[00:17:01] But they, if he, if he, it's interesting, the whole handheld thing.

[00:17:05] I had a teacher who was, uh, he was from Poland.

[00:17:08] And then when he arrived at, uh, at the art school I was at, uh, he, he didn't, uh, have,

[00:17:16] he could barely speak English.

[00:17:18] Uh, in fact, he couldn't speak English at all.

[00:17:20] He would speak in French and I would translate.

[00:17:22] But what was interesting about him is that he had, uh, an affinity for the handheld camera.

[00:17:29] And, and why?

[00:17:31] Well, it's because he felt the handheld camera was a show of freedom that the, the state

[00:17:36] represented, uh, the, the camera on a pedestal represented the state, the, the communist,

[00:17:42] uh, state.

[00:17:43] And, uh, and, uh, they were the truth and there was a solid and grand.

[00:17:48] And while the handheld cameras are wildly free to, to move around and be expressive and be

[00:17:55] more, more true.

[00:17:56] So, so I, I, I, I worked very hard at, at, at, uh, at making a smooth handheld camera.

[00:18:03] Um, meanwhile, in the same class, there was a Gus Van Sant and he, he was much more into

[00:18:08] the Hollywood style of making his shot and this clean shot.

[00:18:11] And so, so, so Malia Noce was, it was a fantastic, um, uh, some, something of a departure for

[00:18:18] him because he, he did really shoot that, uh, mostly handheld with a bolex.

[00:18:24] Oh God, a bolex.

[00:18:25] Yeah.

[00:18:26] And, and with that film as well, like you mentioned rehearsals, that how did that work?

[00:18:29] Did you have like rehearsals before production or was it on the day?

[00:18:33] We had a long period of rehearsals.

[00:18:35] It was, it was, you know, very focused for two weeks, but sort of lasted almost four weeks

[00:18:41] to the, to the, to the point where the actors were really on in character all the time and

[00:18:46] always sort of with us.

[00:18:48] Nobody, there was obviously no trailers, but everybody was just sitting, we didn't even

[00:18:52] have apple boxes.

[00:18:52] Everybody was just sitting there on milk crates waiting for their turn to start acting.

[00:18:57] And a lot of the, a lot of the reality of, of, of the individuals became, you know, there's

[00:19:04] a lot of tension between the two lead, the two male leads because of lifestyle choices that

[00:19:08] they each had.

[00:19:09] And they broke out into a fight in day two of shooting.

[00:19:11] There was a lot of overlap between the relationship between Edie Falco and Peter Green.

[00:19:15] So this, this rehearsal period became this kind of intense sort of like boy pot of, of, of

[00:19:22] boiling emotions where they were, all of their truths were coming out and, and the conflicts

[00:19:27] within their truths were working within the movie.

[00:19:30] So that added a layer of honesty and truth to what you, what you were seeing being filmed.

[00:19:35] Right.

[00:19:36] I mean, some of those, some of those conversations between Adam Tracy and Peter Green were his

[00:19:39] real, his real guests in terms of the kind of raid they were expressing to each other.

[00:19:44] And it worked beautifully for the movie.

[00:19:46] You know, it was a little, it was a little, it's a little tense.

[00:19:51] You know, sometimes there would be an actor who you would drop off and he would go wandering

[00:19:55] off into the East village.

[00:19:55] You're like, am I ever going to see that guy again?

[00:19:59] It's going to keep going.

[00:20:00] You know, there was, there was just a little bit of that going on too.

[00:20:03] I mean, there was, so there was the, the, the level, the layer, the levels of truth and

[00:20:07] honesty in the performances and, and how they overlapped into the, into the reality of

[00:20:12] the actors was, was very, very close and it, and it added a lot to the, to the production.

[00:20:17] Right.

[00:20:17] And it was 12 short, very focused days where we were shooting from, from sort of 6 AM to

[00:20:22] midnight.

[00:20:23] Wow.

[00:20:23] Pretty much every day.

[00:20:24] Um, you know, we, we do an early morning, early morning shot and then shooting and then,

[00:20:29] you know, wrapping at midnight and we were all pretty exhausted, but it was when you,

[00:20:33] when you work and when you, if you keep it that short, um, you, it just, it's just

[00:20:38] about sustainable.

[00:20:39] Yeah.

[00:20:40] One thing that I was very surprised at is how, how fluid all the acting is and how everyone's

[00:20:45] talking at once.

[00:20:46] And yet I, it's a elderly guy today could still follow clearly what, what was being said

[00:20:54] and, and, uh, on what the, what the impact of the scene was, even though everybody is talking

[00:21:01] at once in every single scene.

[00:21:02] And that's, that's, I've never seen that before.

[00:21:04] I mean, I've seen Spielberg do that a couple of times in some scenes, but, um, the whole

[00:21:10] movie is like that.

[00:21:11] It's pretty, pretty, uh, fantastic.

[00:21:13] On that question, actually, because overlap is a thing I have a bit of a hang up about with

[00:21:17] directing because you always get the sound guy saying, Oh, there's been an overlap there

[00:21:20] and there.

[00:21:20] And you're like, Oh no.

[00:21:22] And then scenes where you sort of need an overlap for the energy.

[00:21:25] Um, so with laws of gravity, did you have like multiple boom operators sort of tracking

[00:21:30] the sound or were people wearing radio mics?

[00:21:32] How, how did that work?

[00:21:32] Like no radio mics.

[00:21:34] It was all boom.

[00:21:36] And, you know, and, you know, overlaps be damned because a good, a good dialogue editor,

[00:21:43] which is what I had to do in this movie can, can, can pull out little bits of stuff and

[00:21:48] steal, steal clean versions of dialogue from other takes.

[00:21:51] And, and, and I didn't really have to do that that much because, because the, the, the sound

[00:21:55] recordist did such a great job just in there all the time, booming everything, um, knowing

[00:22:02] where John was because the, the, you know, with all the single takes our operation looked

[00:22:08] a little bit like a Chinese dragon with John in the front.

[00:22:11] Right.

[00:22:12] And the AC, were you pulling focus on or was someone else pulling focus for you?

[00:22:16] No, no, no.

[00:22:17] Um, no, I had to focus pull her.

[00:22:19] Right.

[00:22:20] So then, so then the AC and then behind that behind the AC would be the boom operator and

[00:22:24] behind there would be Jillian, you know, with a Nagra on her.

[00:22:27] So they, everybody was kind of winding around like this moving has, as the shot would move

[00:22:33] around.

[00:22:34] Um, and it was really a delicate little, little, little fun dance to watch happen.

[00:22:39] But, uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, I have a thing with, with, with sound recorders cause it's

[00:22:44] their job to get clean dialogue, but sometimes you need to allow overlaps to happen.

[00:22:52] Sometimes the actors actually need a moment like that.

[00:22:54] And if you're on set and you're listening to something and you realize you haven't got

[00:22:57] one line or something that's, that's an overlap that they got overlap for some reason, it

[00:23:01] never, you could never get it clean.

[00:23:02] Then I would grab it wild knowing that the, that the sound editor can get it later.

[00:23:07] But I, I don't like a sound recorders to, to, to, to tell us how to, how to, you know,

[00:23:14] enhance or, or, or, or, or how to perform.

[00:23:17] I don't think it's fair to the actors to do that.

[00:23:19] I think it's, I think it's their job and our job to sort of make sure we get the stuff

[00:23:23] clean eventually, but you don't want to tell an actor, Oh, could you, could you do this?

[00:23:27] Um, because it's an overlap and all that kind of thing.

[00:23:29] I think that's, that's something to keep in mind as a director is not to, I mean, to understand

[00:23:33] what the needs are, but not to tell, to tell an actor, you know, the boom operator really

[00:23:37] would love it if you did that.

[00:23:38] Cause that's not what an actor wants to hear.

[00:23:41] Do you look at scripts and anticipate where there might be moments of overlap and maybe

[00:23:45] shoot a slightly wider shot for that scene?

[00:23:48] Or how do you sort of approach that?

[00:23:49] Cause especially in TV, cause it gets quite political, those sorts of things.

[00:23:52] Uh, I think that, let's see, do I plan it?

[00:23:55] I, this is my process now has changed a lot.

[00:23:58] I, I storyboard everything just to, for me to think about how to, how to cover it.

[00:24:05] But I never then refer to the storyboards.

[00:24:07] It just helps me walk through the script.

[00:24:10] Um, but I, I, and I, I think that, I think that, you know, finding ways to be non-traditional

[00:24:17] in coverage or finding ways to not rely on a, on a, on a, on an establishing shot or a

[00:24:23] wide shot to get you into a place and finding ways to, to explore a space, uh, that's, that's

[00:24:30] non-typical is always fun.

[00:24:33] If you can do it, if you can get away with it.

[00:24:35] I mean, John, you know, John, you've, you've obviously a director of TV shows.

[00:24:38] You know what that's like to try to sort of like, you want to, you always want to try

[00:24:41] to sneak in the interesting cinematic moments wherever you can.

[00:24:45] You always want to try to find the artistry.

[00:24:47] It's not, it's not always possible, but you always, that's what, that's what makes the

[00:24:51] day interesting.

[00:24:51] If you just, if you just go to work and you're just what they were, what they horribly refer

[00:24:57] to as hosing it down.

[00:24:59] Um, there's, there's, there's nothing going on then.

[00:25:02] I, you know, it's always great to sort of have some idea behind the shot that there's

[00:25:06] something that there's something philosophical or psychological about like what the shot means

[00:25:11] in, in, in the sort of like the whole pattern of the piece.

[00:25:14] And, and your relationship to the performances and the actors relationship to each other.

[00:25:18] Yeah.

[00:25:19] I do like you do is right.

[00:25:21] I do the storyboards like you do and then forget about them.

[00:25:25] But, um, and I do try to like also like you, we just, we just went to the same school, try

[00:25:31] to do a, a, a moving take that gets all the beats.

[00:25:34] So then you go back and, and do the bits of coverage that are necessary to put it together

[00:25:38] or do two takes.

[00:25:40] One is a master and then one is the opposite master.

[00:25:43] So everything is covered.

[00:25:44] Right.

[00:25:46] But, but, uh, one thing I found is that, uh, more and more I'm being restricted.

[00:25:51] Uh, no one will give me the camera anymore, but for, for many years I'd say, no, no, no,

[00:25:56] I'm, I'm going to shoot.

[00:25:57] Just give me the camera.

[00:25:59] And, uh, and on some shows they would get enraged and others say, oh no, please be our

[00:26:03] guest.

[00:26:04] Yes.

[00:26:04] So, uh, but what I find is when I do have the camera in hand that I can find shots that

[00:26:10] I would not think about or not, would not, uh, you discover stuff in the middle of the

[00:26:14] scene that if you move from here to here and then, oh, look, I can do this and find that

[00:26:18] and then come around and this guy then steps in.

[00:26:21] It's, uh, and then you can fix the blocking.

[00:26:23] So, so, uh, more and more now I, I, I feel a little contained in a, in a small library

[00:26:30] where you only have so many rules and you, you, you, you, every, everybody wants to have

[00:26:36] no overlaps and, uh, and no tripping camera.

[00:26:40] And, and, uh, I've been on shows where, uh, well, I wanted to do a 180 and they, uh,

[00:26:46] I was on CSI at the, um, and, uh, the DP lovely guy says, uh, look, normally we would

[00:26:53] never do that.

[00:26:54] Never.

[00:26:54] Never.

[00:26:54] But if you can let me have an, a backlight and for every move that you make, then you

[00:27:00] can do it.

[00:27:01] It has to be a backlight.

[00:27:03] So within those restrictions, one, one can carry on, but, uh, have an experience like, uh,

[00:27:10] laws of gravity or homicide or Oz, uh, uh, they, they have not had it, uh, ever since.

[00:27:17] It may be on Battlestar Galactica, but, uh, to have that kind of freedom and, and joy.

[00:27:24] Because for me, it was joy.

[00:27:26] It's just the fun of filmmaking and, and, and the actors flowing and together.

[00:27:32] We're all moving together.

[00:27:35] It's great.

[00:27:36] So that, so laws of gravity really for you, Jean, was a proving ground before you moved

[00:27:41] on to, and for you, Nick too, before you moved on to homicide, because here you were, Jean,

[00:27:47] on first time taking your documentary skills into dramatic filmmaking.

[00:27:53] And then you come into homicide where that has already sort of been set in those first

[00:27:57] nine episodes.

[00:27:58] Um, but I'm, I'm also thinking about, you know, you initially said, oh, I thought I was going

[00:28:04] to have dollies.

[00:28:04] I thought I was going to have tripods.

[00:28:05] I thought I was going to have, you know, dolly track and all that stuff.

[00:28:08] Um, did you also think you might have sets as opposed to where you'd already been doing

[00:28:14] in documentary filmmaking, where everything was on real, on a practical set was a real

[00:28:19] thing.

[00:28:20] Um, so you had to learn to shoot within those restrictions, which you also had to do in homicide

[00:28:26] because we had no sets with movable walls and movable, well, some movable ceilings in

[00:28:30] the squad room.

[00:28:32] But so, so, so putting, putting those two together, the, the dramatic with the, with

[00:28:37] the documentary style.

[00:28:38] We have sets.

[00:28:40] We actually built a set.

[00:28:41] Yes, you did have a set.

[00:28:42] We built the apartment that Peter Green and Edie Falco lived in, our, our production designer

[00:28:47] for about a nickel dumpster dived.

[00:28:51] And she was, she was, this is my girlfriend.

[00:28:53] She was a carpenter and she managed to find, you know, her, her carpenter buddies.

[00:28:57] And they built a set, you know, inside the shooting gallery, which was enormous for us

[00:29:03] for like a $35,000 film to have an actual practical set to work in.

[00:29:07] It was, it was, it was a huge deal.

[00:29:09] It was a really, really big deal.

[00:29:11] Well, you can never guess from seeing that, that was, that that was a built set.

[00:29:14] She was really talented.

[00:29:15] Did that help with the lighting?

[00:29:16] Cause I was intrigued by the lighting of that scene.

[00:29:18] Cause I remember when we spoke before you mentioned, Jean, that you only had like redheads

[00:29:22] and things.

[00:29:23] And I was like trying to work out how you lit the scene and it, yeah.

[00:29:26] Well, that was something about laws of gravity, which was interesting is that it was a very

[00:29:30] low budget.

[00:29:31] And basically there was a van, my van with my lights, documentary lights.

[00:29:37] Luckily I had a very good gaffer, Frank Stolbeffield, who helped me set up these lights.

[00:29:43] So everything was extremely simple and it just, it limited by what we had, which was maybe eight

[00:29:50] lights and some bulbs that we could put in the ceiling.

[00:29:55] So did you, did you Nick, did you fly the walls out or did you leave it set so that you,

[00:30:01] so that you had that claustrophobic, I got to work within, within these walls, even if

[00:30:05] it is a set.

[00:30:06] Yeah.

[00:30:07] You know, we, we didn't, we didn't fly, we didn't ever remove any walls, but it just

[00:30:11] gave us the ability to like, if you, if we were shooting in a real sort of railroad

[00:30:15] apartment, which was what the, that was a, that was a Williamsburg style railroad apartment.

[00:30:19] You know, can you just imagine just the egress alone, Susan, as you understand, would just

[00:30:23] be impossible.

[00:30:24] Right.

[00:30:25] Right.

[00:30:25] In terms of like getting everybody up the stairs and all that kind of thing.

[00:30:27] And just having the room to sort of like, where's everybody going to go?

[00:30:30] So actually people can like set up outside the walls of the stage, you know, and sit and

[00:30:35] you know, you have, you have your, you know, your makeup and hair and, and, you know, everybody

[00:30:39] else can just be hanging out on there.

[00:30:40] And then when you cut, you come in.

[00:30:41] I don't think we actually had makeup only maybe some occasional, occasional bits of blood

[00:30:46] here and there, but, but you know how it is.

[00:30:48] It's when you're shooting in a real tenement and I've done that plenty of times, certainly

[00:30:50] in Baltimore.

[00:30:51] And I love it.

[00:30:53] It's, it's, you know, it's, it's interesting to have those kinds of restrictions, you know,

[00:30:57] shooting in a little tiny bathtub or whatever it is, you know, in a little tiny tenement

[00:31:01] building, those kinds of restrictions can be really interesting because it forces you to

[00:31:04] shoot things in a visual way.

[00:31:06] And then the claustrophobia becomes part of, of, of what's being documented, you know, the

[00:31:11] tininess of it all.

[00:31:13] And Baltimore certainly had plenty of empty sort of apartments for us to shoot in.

[00:31:17] And I remember that we, we flooded one where we sort of like had, we had, we had a bathtub

[00:31:22] full of body parts and we completely, and a woman comes home and you know, there's like

[00:31:26] water running from the third floor to the first, you know, and that's not something that you

[00:31:31] could really do, I guess now anywhere.

[00:31:36] But, uh, you know, we're constantly breaking the rules.

[00:31:38] But John, I've got a question for you.

[00:31:40] Um, on, I watched, I watched a fire part two last night and we did a nighttime hood mount.

[00:31:47] Uh huh.

[00:31:48] We were driving at night with Andre and, and, and, um, and, um, and, and Kyle.

[00:31:55] How did you do that?

[00:31:57] Were you, were you sitting on the hood?

[00:32:00] Well, um, this was already a season three.

[00:32:04] So I think by then we, we, we had started out by me simply, uh, sitting in the, in the,

[00:32:10] in the, the window.

[00:32:12] In the windows.

[00:32:13] Yeah.

[00:32:16] Under, under the, the seat and hanging out the car and we'd go down the street.

[00:32:21] But by the season four, uh, the grip department built a little tow rig so we could put the camera,

[00:32:28] uh, on the tow rig.

[00:32:30] And eventually we had one, one episode with Lily Tomlin where they're in the car quite a bit.

[00:32:35] And so they, they got one of the cars, cut the engine off and built a box around so the camera could be inside.

[00:32:43] And the whole thing was, was, was, uh, uh, trailer down the street.

[00:32:47] This is a very Jerry.

[00:32:49] Oh, that's very weird.

[00:32:49] Yeah.

[00:32:50] And, um, but that, that's sort of like, like, what I liked about laws of gravity is there were, there were so few crew members.

[00:32:57] So we could do these scenes where the camera goes three, six and don't have to worry.

[00:33:00] That's right.

[00:33:01] The other day I was filming, uh, and we were at a, at an intersection and completely, the whole idea was to do a three.

[00:33:08] So I wanted to do a three 60 and everything would be empty.

[00:33:11] They, they've lost the guy they're looking for.

[00:33:13] Uh, but there's a problem that we have a hundred crew members.

[00:33:17] Where are we going to put them?

[00:33:19] So that the, uh, the art department built these ridiculous fences so that the hundred people and all the equipment could be hidden behind these, these mesh to fences and in the middle of some natural area.

[00:33:32] Uh, it gets very difficult.

[00:33:35] Uh, and I kept saying, well, couldn't she just be, uh, the camera guy and, and the sound fella.

[00:33:40] And we go out there and everybody's just stay a block away.

[00:33:43] No, it's impossible.

[00:33:45] So, um, that, that, that, that kind of freedom, uh, did extend to homicide where we're using all the exact same techniques and doing the simplest, uh, thing possible to great, to great effect.

[00:34:00] I mean, to, to this day, I get annoyed when I'm on set and, and the camera guy goes, oh, we need to move this.

[00:34:06] I mean, move that.

[00:34:07] Why?

[00:34:07] Just stick yourself in there.

[00:34:09] Let's go.

[00:34:09] Um, but, uh, all furniture is constantly being moved to, to make the camera guys comfortable.

[00:34:15] Uh, I, I read that, uh, Steven Soderbergh, he, he refused to have anything moved or touched, but where he makes a set and he, he's handheld.

[00:34:23] He goes into his corner and, and makes a shot, which I think is quite brilliant.

[00:34:28] Well, yeah, well, that's the way to do it.

[00:34:29] I mean, the big, the big part of being a director is making sure that there's, you know, you have to watch where the trucks are being parked.

[00:34:35] Exactly.

[00:34:35] Because you really have to, you really, you know, you really, really have to watch that because the teamsters aren't listening.

[00:34:41] You know, it's like, you have to really, really get there and you have to make sure that like, no, no, that truck is not going to go there, dude.

[00:34:47] That's where we're looking.

[00:34:49] It becomes a big part of the job description.

[00:34:52] I do have a, I do have a picture in daylight.

[00:34:56] So it probably wasn't for that scene you were talking about, but I have a picture of, uh, of a hood mount.

[00:35:02] I'm putting the camera on a hood mount and it, it's on homicide.

[00:35:05] So I have to go back and see if it has a date stamp on the back of it.

[00:35:09] But it was a date.

[00:35:10] It was, it was a picture.

[00:35:11] And we, it was a winter.

[00:35:13] We all had our coats on.

[00:35:14] It was daylight.

[00:35:15] So I think we must've had occasionally used a hood mount, John.

[00:35:19] Which when I saw that picture, I was like, whoa, wait a minute.

[00:35:21] This looks like from some other feature I've worked on, but it's on homicide.

[00:35:24] Well, I, I, I'm pretty sure we, we got some suction cup hood, hood mounts possibly.

[00:35:29] Yes.

[00:35:30] I know at one point they, they built me a little cage that somehow hung on to the door.

[00:35:36] So I was in this little cage and we drive down the street.

[00:35:41] This is insane.

[00:35:42] Nowadays you, you can't do anything of this sort.

[00:35:46] I, I, like in that episode that you directed, Nick, you have, uh, uh, Melissa Leo driving the car.

[00:35:56] I'm in the backseat and she's trying to scram for her exam.

[00:35:59] She's turning pages and she's almost missing her turn.

[00:36:02] And there's like, there's a, there's a, and she's driving and she's looking at a thing.

[00:36:06] And it is insane.

[00:36:08] You could not do this today.

[00:36:10] Uh, there, there would just be impossible.

[00:36:11] You can tell that's not a toe shot.

[00:36:14] You can tell that's not a toe shot.

[00:36:16] Cause I was watching another episode where Callie was driving and she never moves her hands.

[00:36:21] Cause he realizes like, that's a toe shot.

[00:36:24] But yeah, that one with Melissa has a lot of energy.

[00:36:27] I'm sorry, Nick, go ahead.

[00:36:28] Well, no, it's just that there's, there was an evolution of the look of the show.

[00:36:31] Cause when I got there for the first season of my first season of my first episode, um, I had no idea what I was doing.

[00:36:37] I'd only directed laws of gravity.

[00:36:39] I had like, and that was me working with a bunch of actors, you know, for a whole bunch of weeks and working with a cameraman that I trusted and people that I knew and I'd built up a relationship with.

[00:36:48] I'm suddenly there working with all these actors, you know, and I didn't know really sort of like what the, what the culture of, of, of, of that process was.

[00:36:57] And that was, and it was my first time working on a real set with big trucks.

[00:37:01] It still had big trucks.

[00:37:02] And, you know, um, uh, it was a very, very, I was like, okay, and today's your first day and you're working and you're going to be in the coffee room.

[00:37:10] I'm like, okay, so I've got five actors.

[00:37:12] What am I going to do?

[00:37:13] Well, I'm just going to rely on what I know, which is sort of like just keeping, oh, I'm going to stay back.

[00:37:17] And I'm going to, I'm going to have Wayne just kind of like walk in on it as if he was walking into the room itself.

[00:37:24] And then I'll, and then we'll just sort of explore it like that.

[00:37:27] And all the shots of the vehicles and those very sort of emblematic moments of like, of, of Bayless and Andre together.

[00:37:34] They, that's sort of where the bond of their relationship really became fermented really is in there, all their driving scenes together.

[00:37:40] It was always just the back seat, just doing all the back seat stuff.

[00:37:44] And that was, you know, on that little slider that those guys had invented.

[00:37:48] Um, and then by the time, you know, scene six or seven, we're doing hood mounts and we're doing this and we're doing towing and all that kind of thing.

[00:37:54] And also cross cutting, all that kind of stuff in the, in the, in the very beginning, it was very much the sort of like laws sort of style.

[00:38:01] But, you know, you know that when early on in the history of the show, I got sent from somebody's office, I got sent a copy of the book, the David Simon book.

[00:38:13] And then I met with, with, with Fontana and Finity.

[00:38:18] And they were like, well, what did you do?

[00:38:20] How did you make long?

[00:38:21] Cause they'd seen laws of gravity.

[00:38:22] I'm like, how did you do that?

[00:38:23] All that stuff.

[00:38:24] I'm like, well, it was 16 millimeter, you know, no dollies.

[00:38:27] This is how, this is the approach that we used to shoot it.

[00:38:29] We just ran around, um, try to sort of like catch up with the action.

[00:38:33] And we use John to second Zach.

[00:38:36] And that was like, that was how we approached it.

[00:38:38] And that's how we, that's how we did it.

[00:38:40] And, you know, and I said, you use the eight on cause it's the best camera for handle.

[00:38:43] I don't know what Wayne used in the beginning.

[00:38:45] Um, but it was really like, it was, it was, it was the, it was the look that John to second Zach had created for laws that those guys had seen.

[00:38:52] And, and, and, and realize that that's the look that we want to have for our show.

[00:38:57] So that was, that was, that was a, that was a nice little bit of continuity there.

[00:39:02] Well, it was, um, I gotta say that the luck for me of doing laws of gravity and naked working on homicide got me the job shooting on homicide.

[00:39:13] And this totally, completely changed my life where that led to directing and other things like that.

[00:39:20] Um, so thank you, Nick.

[00:39:25] Well, yeah, but John, it was your artistry that made laws of gravity work.

[00:39:29] So, and that's, what's great.

[00:39:30] I mean, that's the thing that I still enjoy is like the collaboration is, is the key to when you're, when you're, when you're making an industrial art piece like this, when you're working in film and television.

[00:39:42] And that's, that's when you get really great, if you're working with people that like want, like love the medium, like you do, you have, you have great ideas and great stuff can happen.

[00:39:52] Right.

[00:39:52] There's, there's plenty of opportunities, plenty of situations where people are just there because they're there for whatever reason.

[00:39:57] And, and, and the work, the work shows that.

[00:40:01] Right.

[00:40:01] But when people really love it and, and, and, and all your collaborators are really sort of like firing an all piston, that's when the work really shines.

[00:40:09] And that's when it really sort of becomes something special.

[00:40:11] And that's what sort of homicide was.

[00:40:12] Right.

[00:40:13] And on homicide, I think the, the idea that we could do a six page scene without cutting is what gave the actors tremendous freedom and, and flow and continuity.

[00:40:28] And, and we would never tell them where the camera would be.

[00:40:30] So they all had to be on.

[00:40:32] And that's what makes it so much more lively than many other shows that, that are, have been made since.

[00:40:42] That's a very, very lively show.

[00:40:45] Because the cast never knew, right?

[00:40:47] You couldn't, you couldn't phone in because, you know, I've actually worked in situations where the lead is not there for the, for the, the, the other actors off camera stuff.

[00:40:58] Somebody else would be there on AD or something like that.

[00:41:01] And then, cause they, cause the lead just wants to go back to their trailer and not give the actual actor the performance, which is outrageous.

[00:41:08] Right.

[00:41:09] But on homicide, those guys never knew if they were going to be on camera or not, cause the camera was always floating around.

[00:41:14] So they always had to be on their game constantly.

[00:41:16] Right, right.

[00:41:17] They, they would ask me, am I going to be on it?

[00:41:19] Are you going to be on me?

[00:41:20] I said, dude, I'm not going to tell you.

[00:41:24] Maybe, maybe not.

[00:41:25] Then they, they would definitely give their all, all the time.

[00:41:29] But the performances are just fantastic on that show.

[00:41:32] Well, Nick, I mean, this, I'm not being asked this to be controversial.

[00:41:36] What was it like working with the cast on that first season?

[00:41:40] Because obviously this is a new style for them as well.

[00:41:42] And you were in the process quite early.

[00:41:44] What was that like?

[00:41:46] The, the, the, the culture of the first season.

[00:41:49] I don't know how long this lasted.

[00:41:51] There was a lot of slamming doors and a lot of actors slamming doors behind them and charging off the set and going back to their trailer.

[00:41:59] Cause they were either unhappy who, who, who they were acting with, or they were unhappy with some aspect of, of the script.

[00:42:05] And it was just happening all the time.

[00:42:08] And finally, so I had a scene with Yafikoto and Yafikoto kept on wandering off into the corner of his office.

[00:42:16] Sort of facing away from us.

[00:42:18] And I'm like, Yafikoto.

[00:42:18] Looking out the blinds, right?

[00:42:20] Well, in this, yeah, he would do that sometimes because he knew he could get the closeup by doing that.

[00:42:25] But he, I'm like, why are you going over there?

[00:42:26] Why are you going?

[00:42:27] He blew up at me.

[00:42:28] He absolutely exploded.

[00:42:30] And I'm like, you know what?

[00:42:31] I'm going to walk out.

[00:42:32] So I walked out and went up, went out to the roof and, oh, who was that great gaffer that we had?

[00:42:41] Josh?

[00:42:42] Was it John Pacey on the first, first episode?

[00:42:45] Or maybe it was he?

[00:42:47] Who became the, blonde haired guy who became the, became the gaffer for the whole show?

[00:42:51] Josh Springs.

[00:42:52] That was Josh Springs.

[00:42:53] Josh Springs.

[00:42:53] Yeah, Josh.

[00:42:53] He was the key grip, I think, on the first season.

[00:42:56] On the first season.

[00:42:56] That's right.

[00:42:57] Yeah.

[00:42:57] So I went out onto the rooftop and Josh came out after he had a football in his hand.

[00:43:01] And we threw the ball back and forth for a couple minutes so I could calm down.

[00:43:06] And then went back in and sort of resumed the scene.

[00:43:09] But there was, the first season, there was a lot of that going on.

[00:43:12] There was a lot of, a lot of, the cast, because they were, in some ways they were emboldened, right?

[00:43:21] To sort of like have their feelings and have their attitudes because it wasn't like another,

[00:43:26] it wasn't like a lockdown network show.

[00:43:28] They were emboldened to sort of have these big feelings about what was going on.

[00:43:32] And sometimes it would, like children, it would turn into a negative moment.

[00:43:38] But, and so that was also just a learning experience for me to sort of like work with a cast in a more

[00:43:43] regimented sort of way to approach it.

[00:43:47] And, you know, and Ned Beatty, like he looked at me and I'm a 28-year-old kid.

[00:43:51] He was not that interested in, and I realized it like, okay, Ned, I'm going to leave you alone.

[00:43:56] I think you've done enough work in your esteemed career.

[00:44:00] You know exactly what you're doing.

[00:44:02] He wasn't happy with his scenes because he had this kind of like, these scenes.

[00:44:07] He didn't like this thing where his neighbor was his woodworker.

[00:44:10] And so he just, he had a lot of problems with just like, you know, here he is early on, early on in this brand new show.

[00:44:17] And he's got these scenes that are a little whimsical, you know, with this woodworker neighbor of his.

[00:44:22] And he wasn't happy with it.

[00:44:25] So there was, you know, actors sometimes bring their own stuff along.

[00:44:30] And that's just something that you, that now there's a thing where a producer likes to sit you down and say,

[00:44:38] this actor's like this, and this actor's like this, and this actor's like this.

[00:44:41] And I always tune that out.

[00:44:44] Because I don't want, I don't want to meet someone for the first time and having been told that, oh my God, they're a nightmare.

[00:44:50] Oh my God, they ask too many questions.

[00:44:52] I want to just meet them on a level playing field and not have any preconceived notions about that.

[00:44:57] Because that's just going to add stress to whatever the encounter is.

[00:45:00] Right?

[00:45:01] And usually an actor just wants to have, just wants to ask questions, just wants to know a little bit more about what's going on.

[00:45:07] You know, it just has, and they're usually good questions.

[00:45:09] And they're usually ways for them to find more depth in their character.

[00:45:14] You know, but sometimes if you're a busy person, you're trying to be a showrunner, you're writing scripts, you don't have time for that.

[00:45:20] Right?

[00:45:20] And the director shows up, you're the only person that does have time.

[00:45:24] So sometimes they glom onto you like, I want to know this, I want to know that, what's going on here.

[00:45:28] And then you just have to be patient and give them the time and the opportunity because they're the ones that are up there.

[00:45:34] You have to give them that.

[00:45:37] Did I answer your question, by the way?

[00:45:38] Yeah.

[00:45:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:45:39] Yeah.

[00:45:39] So jumping off that, so jump forward.

[00:45:42] So jump forward to season four, episode two, which was Fire Part Two.

[00:45:46] So at this point, the show has dialed itself in.

[00:45:50] Jaune has been there for, you know, since season two.

[00:45:53] And has dialed his style in with the way the ensemble cast is working.

[00:45:59] And you come in, Nick and Jaune, you haven't worked together since Laws of Gravity, right?

[00:46:04] At that point?

[00:46:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:05] So was that really fun?

[00:46:07] So Nick, you come in, it's a little bit of a different situation.

[00:46:09] You have a cameraman you're familiar with.

[00:46:12] There may be things that have smoothed out with the cast because they've been working in this style for a couple years.

[00:46:18] So what was that like for you guys to come together and work together again, you know, in a different situation, but having that working relationship already behind you?

[00:46:28] Fun.

[00:46:29] Well, we actually did work a bit after Laws of Gravity.

[00:46:35] We did America's Most Wanted.

[00:46:37] Oh, okay.

[00:46:38] We did four episodes of America's Most Wanted, which was tremendous fun.

[00:46:43] We traveled all over the country and recreated these horrific crimes.

[00:46:48] So we're very comfortable with each other.

[00:46:50] Plus, Nick got me that job at Homicide and I was delighted to see him.

[00:46:55] So for me, it was just a continuity, which is having this tremendous, huge toy that we were playing with, which was quite a big one on that particular episode.

[00:47:07] Because there were fires, there were burnt things, there were spectacular stuff going on.

[00:47:14] So back to that idea that you came in season four, things were more settled, were the actors more settled, John's style was dialed in.

[00:47:24] So how was that coming back together?

[00:47:25] And actually, remind me to come back to, I do have a question about America's Most Wanted and the style of that and Homicide.

[00:47:34] But go ahead.

[00:47:34] How was it coming back together?

[00:47:36] It was great.

[00:47:37] I mean, what was interesting about that season was that it was Reed's introduction to his character.

[00:47:45] Right?

[00:47:45] So Kellerman.

[00:47:47] Yes.

[00:47:47] So that was a new, you know, he was a new element.

[00:47:52] And he was also kind of getting his sea legs there.

[00:47:57] There was a lot of discussion about like his wardrobe and his haircut.

[00:48:00] They were really trying to sort of like, there was a lot of like, who is Kellerman and what kind of a character is he?

[00:48:08] And should he be wearing this tie or this jacket and all that kind of thing?

[00:48:11] But what was interesting about Fire Part 2 in watching it last night is that there's two 30 second sequences with Kellerman in them where he's not talking and no one is talking.

[00:48:22] It's very unusual for American television for that to happen.

[00:48:26] You know, he walks into this bar.

[00:48:28] We have this great band of all these crazy women with all this multicolored hair playing and playing and playing and playing.

[00:48:35] And he's walking, walking, walking, walking, walking.

[00:48:37] And then finally he meets his ex and they say, hey.

[00:48:40] And at the end, he's walking through this great fact and this great bottling plant for like another 30 seconds before he finally meets up with his dad.

[00:48:48] And so that became sort of part and parcel to sort of like Kellerman's little bit of his, you know, backstory journey or his was him traveling, you know, east to west with with an audience in tow.

[00:49:00] And it was just an interesting way to sort of, I don't know, just be with a person and sort of get a sense of who he is without sort of like being heavy handed about how the backstory is being introduced.

[00:49:10] I thought that was kind of interesting.

[00:49:12] Television these days is that the silence is not tolerated.

[00:49:16] So people have to be yakking.

[00:49:18] So that was another wonderful thing about homicide.

[00:49:21] There'll be whole sequences where there would be music montage or there'll be people not talking.

[00:49:28] That party, that scene with the band was quite fantastic.

[00:49:33] And the one in the bottling plant also.

[00:49:36] I didn't remember the bottling plant.

[00:49:39] So it was funny to watch something that I know I shot, but I didn't remember the place.

[00:49:45] So it was wonderful to revisit it.

[00:49:48] So did you, by the time you get to season four, do you guys have an unspoken sort of dialogue between the two of you or unspoken understanding about how when you come into a scene?

[00:50:00] I know, Jean, at one point you talked about having the ring of cards on your belt or maybe somebody else on the crew talked about that.

[00:50:08] Did you collaborate before you got into scenes?

[00:50:11] Or had you been working so much at that point that when you came into a scene, Jean, you knew what Nick wanted and Nick, you knew what Jean was going to do?

[00:50:19] Was it that much of a symbiosis happening?

[00:50:23] Well, the show was great and all the shooting was fantastic.

[00:50:27] So I trusted Jean.

[00:50:28] And Jean was doing things that weren't natural to me where he would do a lot of this kind of crossing in front.

[00:50:37] Jean has this great ability to sort of like do a whip pan and then lock into the subject as if he's on wheels.

[00:50:45] Right.

[00:50:46] Which is very, very tough thing to do because of the equilibrium of the camera.

[00:50:50] Often you get to at the end of a whip pan, there's a little bit of this going on.

[00:50:54] But Jean was able to always lock in and then push in.

[00:50:58] Right.

[00:50:58] So and he was working with like with a lens that I'm wider than I am traditionally used to working with.

[00:51:04] Right.

[00:51:05] I tend to go a little bit like in the 40 zone.

[00:51:07] I can't remember what the translation is to 16 millimeter.

[00:51:10] But Jean was working with wider stuff.

[00:51:12] Right.

[00:51:13] And it was just it was just something kind of kind of great about it.

[00:51:17] So you tend to gravitate towards a 40 millimeter lens.

[00:51:21] That's that's that's that's a zone that I like to live in.

[00:51:23] So, Jean, let me ask you something.

[00:51:24] So you're you remember your lens, your lens?

[00:51:27] Were you working with primes or was it all short zooms?

[00:51:30] No, no.

[00:51:30] I always had a short zoom.

[00:51:31] I had a cook lens on my own gear, though.

[00:51:35] I also had an ingenue that went up to 120 millimeters.

[00:51:40] But on homicide, we would use prime lenses when we were in darker situations to get the extra stop.

[00:51:51] But mostly it was with the zoom.

[00:51:53] I always liked the zoom.

[00:51:55] So you can be here on a 12 or whatever.

[00:51:58] And then you swing and you can zoom in and no one even notices.

[00:52:02] And now you're in a tighter shot.

[00:52:04] You can create all this dynamic stuff.

[00:52:07] Yeah.

[00:52:08] And I was on the show already going into the third year.

[00:52:12] And so it's true.

[00:52:15] I would I would get a little looking for something new to do.

[00:52:19] So so then I started dancing between the characters.

[00:52:22] There are two people talking.

[00:52:24] I find myself going to the other actor backed away and then came back in.

[00:52:27] And this is just for my amusement, really, trying to make it as interesting as possible.

[00:52:35] But still, it was a because we like the dance.

[00:52:39] And and it was for the actors and the camera was all kind of fun.

[00:52:43] It just added another element to to the whole thing.

[00:52:46] Mm hmm.

[00:52:47] There's a great shot.

[00:52:49] Speaking of fire part two and speaking of lens lengths, there's a great shot on the roof with Andre and Kyle.

[00:52:55] And John, you're down.

[00:52:57] You're probably sitting down on your knees looking up at Andre wide lens.

[00:53:02] So he's a little distorted, but it's a close up.

[00:53:04] So it's a it's a tension in this in in the frame because it's because it's a wide lens.

[00:53:09] But you're in on him.

[00:53:10] Right.

[00:53:11] And then from way back across the other side of of the roof, Kyle come.

[00:53:17] You don't see Kyle when the scene starts.

[00:53:19] Kyle comes comes from directly behind Andre and appears from behind his head.

[00:53:25] And he's much smaller because it's a very wide lens.

[00:53:28] And then he comes down and sits a little bit behind Andre on the picnic table.

[00:53:33] And then you just stay in that scene.

[00:53:36] And it's a scene where Andre talks about and he gets very emotional talking about his pregnant wife and how he's not going to be able to protect his child in seeing this horrible stuff that happened in this episode.

[00:53:49] Not just the kids that were burned up, but the homeless people living in squalor, you know, in this in this warehouse.

[00:53:55] And it was interesting because the idea of a of a wide lens and close up.

[00:54:02] So they're both a little distorted.

[00:54:04] But you're also like you said, John, and maybe to keep yourself interested and Nick, you may have said, I want this low.

[00:54:11] But can you guys talk about how how because it's extremely effective and beautifully done, but you just sit on it.

[00:54:20] You sit on that and let the actors move in, you know, move in that within that frame, which is a little different than the opposite of homicide, which is the cameras moving and the actors are sort of, you know, you're catching the actors.

[00:54:36] So but can you talk if you remember that scene, can you talk a little bit about it?

[00:54:40] Because it's a striking scene.

[00:54:42] Well, well, I feel that we had that we had ways of of filming and style.

[00:54:48] But at the same time, the the story is is what's what's what's what really drives what we ended up doing.

[00:54:57] So here's a man sitting and contemplating the life and the future of the life of his children.

[00:55:04] And so just to sit there in this wide shot and let it develop and not move, which was, I think, a terrific choice.

[00:55:12] I'm sure Nick had everything to do with.

[00:55:14] And now is it a choice that the producers liked?

[00:55:18] I don't know.

[00:55:19] So whenever I've done a shot like that once before, two guys talking and I just held the shot and I got in a bit of trouble with with the main writer because he would like to be able to cut up his his his dialogue.

[00:55:34] And so he was annoyed that we held the shot.

[00:55:36] But I thought it was an extremely effective in both instances to just sit there and let it develop on its own.

[00:55:44] And then afterwards, they get up and walk away, Andre and Kyle.

[00:55:50] And it's a telephoto shot.

[00:55:52] And they walk towards us and they kind of look at each other and they seem to understand each other.

[00:55:59] And I thought it was such a moving shot.

[00:56:01] They walk towards us and then it's a long lens shot.

[00:56:04] And then they they they split on either side of the camera.

[00:56:07] So that's also something that we're not always doing, but that we make the choice of doing depending on.

[00:56:15] It's like at one point I was enamored with the Dutch frames and until Tom Fontana.

[00:56:22] The Dutch tilt.

[00:56:22] The Dutch tilt.

[00:56:24] He he he sent me a message saying enough of that Dutch tilt.

[00:56:29] So so but for a while I was like, this is so cool.

[00:56:32] I'll start here at a very steep angle and I'll straighten up as people enter.

[00:56:39] Until that was then then once Tom complained, we never did it again, of course.

[00:56:46] So, Nick, if you remember that scene, you come out onto the onto the roof.

[00:56:51] If is it you telling them where to go or do you let them play the scene and see what happens and then set the camera?

[00:56:58] How does that work?

[00:56:58] How does that work for you, particularly that scene?

[00:57:01] I love to let the when I'm rehearsing, when we do our little quick little rehearsals, I love when the actors come onto the set.

[00:57:09] The way they fall off the truck is something that I love to work with.

[00:57:14] Like so if you're in a bunch of guy, a bunch of people together in a room and they and these actors enter the room organically just to do sort of like a little read through just to listen to the words.

[00:57:25] They find they.

[00:57:28] So I love allowing actors to find their own placements and to fall off the truck in a natural way.

[00:57:36] So and Andre and I had talked about that scene a lot about the fear because also it was a theme that I sort of had in a movie that I had just completed called Illtown.

[00:57:46] The idea of bringing children into a dangerous world.

[00:57:49] So we had a long chat about that.

[00:57:51] And the idea of just letting it play out in a single take was still something that I've always liked to do, as I said, as I mentioned before, because I just like the the the the the organic quality of a long take.

[00:58:01] And in Fire Part 2, we had a lot of long takes going on.

[00:58:04] We had a lot of long.

[00:58:05] We were able to sort of like maintain that thing that we had created from Laws of Gravity where we would just follow characters around and cut only when absolutely sort of necessary.

[00:58:14] So the idea that Andre was sort of like the anchor of that scene and feeling very having, you know, different kinds of ideas about what was going to be like to be a father in the world, to bring a family, you know, all he was feeling, you know, he had he had ambivalence.

[00:58:35] And he also has he has as an individual, you know, with kids, he was having ambivalence about the world because he was seeing a lot of stuff.

[00:58:42] Remember, he mentioned this.

[00:58:43] He, you know, just being in this show, right, exposes you to a lot of real bad things that are happening in the world all the time.

[00:58:51] And then the and then the double the double whammy of that of being an African-American in this world and bringing up African-American kids in this world.

[00:59:00] It was you know, he was feeling very it was it was it was it was a it was a it was a scene that was bringing a lot of emotions to him and he was feeling very powerful about it.

[00:59:09] And I and I kind of didn't want to tamper with that at all.

[00:59:13] I just wanted him to be someone that was just in front of us, just giving us his business.

[00:59:17] And the sad thing about it, of course, is that early on before Bayless comes out, he looks at this or just as Bayless's approach.

[00:59:24] He looks at the cigarettes like these things are going to kill me.

[00:59:26] And so and which brings me also like the amount of cigarette smoking.

[00:59:32] In that episode, I mean, everybody is just smoking all the time and you and also using the cigarettes as a prop.

[00:59:41] And having it be part of their character, making it part of their performance and also the nature of their discussion.

[00:59:48] Where at some point Kellerman's like, I don't need to smoke, you know, all this kind of thing.

[00:59:51] And then Andre is sort of like savoring the tobacco in the cigarette.

[00:59:55] It was it was such a different time.

[00:59:58] But yeah, that scene was very that scene was very important to Andre.

[01:00:02] And also he was he was feeling like I want I feel like in this show, I'm on the outside.

[01:00:10] And I want to be more I kind of want to be featured more on the inside, you know, and I was like, well, what do you mean by that?

[01:00:17] I feel like I'm he felt even though he obviously not true.

[01:00:22] He felt he was a peripheral character in the show.

[01:00:26] Wow.

[01:00:27] Because he just felt like he was he just didn't feel like he was central to some of the core themes of the show.

[01:00:34] And that's just the insecurity of an actor.

[01:00:36] Right.

[01:00:37] And so, you know, actors have these insecurities where they feel like what I'm doing is not good enough or the contributions that I'm making or they're not writing to my strengths or all those kinds of things.

[01:00:47] That's just that's just a common thing that I that I pick up.

[01:00:50] And also what one thing is that Tom Fontana is a man of very big ears.

[01:00:57] Whatever you're saying or thinking is going to get back to him.

[01:01:01] So I'm sure this this this scene was written very much with Andre in mind because I'm sure they had this kind of a conversation about.

[01:01:10] Right.

[01:01:11] The problems of having children because he was his at the time his wife was pregnant, as I recall.

[01:01:18] That's right.

[01:01:19] So, yes.

[01:01:20] At any time you mentioned something on set, it would get back to Tom and then it would be in the script the next week.

[01:01:27] Was that Jim Finney's fault?

[01:01:29] Because I heard he managed to monitor the set by having it all the audio transmitted to his office.

[01:01:35] Well, I don't know how he did it, but I do remember once we had a director who would insist on doing 15 takes for no apparent reason.

[01:01:45] And and I made a little aside joke.

[01:01:48] I said, I guess we'll be shooting on Saturday.

[01:01:50] And about five minutes later, I feel tremendous pain in my arm.

[01:01:53] It's Jim Finney's got me by the arm.

[01:01:56] He's squeezing it.

[01:01:57] And he says, what's this talk about shooting on Saturday?

[01:02:01] There'll be no shooting on Saturday.

[01:02:03] Jim, it was just it was just a joke.

[01:02:08] Yeah, you can say anything without being found out.

[01:02:10] Well, it's interesting.

[01:02:12] You came from and obviously you work between laws of gravity and homicide.

[01:02:16] But the the the was at a different scale.

[01:02:20] But the the production and the budget constraints that you had to work with, you know, under in laws of gravity were helped by this small crew, you know, moving camera.

[01:02:31] Things moving quickly, getting through the day, even though they were long days.

[01:02:35] I mean, to shoot that in 12 days is just amazing.

[01:02:37] Doesn't matter how many hours you work.

[01:02:39] The fact that you shot that in 12 days is crazy.

[01:02:41] But then you come on homicide where the production and the crew people, the head department heads are told we work under this restriction.

[01:02:50] You cannot work past 12 days there.

[01:02:53] There will be no going over budget.

[01:02:54] And as a matter of fact, we were under budget, you know, often, maybe not often, but but had been under budget, never over budget.

[01:03:02] So did that did that kind of stuff ever come into your mind to Nick or John?

[01:03:07] Well, obviously, Affinity is up here making sure everybody, you know, the trains run on time.

[01:03:13] Right. He's making sure everything works.

[01:03:15] Did that also I think that would freak out some directors.

[01:03:19] Did it not freak you out because you'd worked under very heavy constraints like that budgetary constraints?

[01:03:26] You know, laws of gravity was like it was like the most three takes for pretty much every setup.

[01:03:32] Right. And I like working at that pace.

[01:03:35] And, you know, if if you're if we're if it's currently coming on to take four and we're not getting it, then I like to just sort of change it up and figure out another way to to sort of approach it and sort of like maybe move the camera over here.

[01:03:48] And I think that you can, you know, if you're doing take 15 and 16, I think that, you know, if you you're Kubrick and you're getting your actors to a point of complete exhaustion and there's whatever whatever walls they put up to protect themselves just disappears completely.

[01:04:04] And they become these vulnerable creatures.

[01:04:06] Then, yeah, but you can't certainly can't do that in television.

[01:04:08] So Affinity never gave me a hard time because I was always quick, which is just the way that I enjoyed working.

[01:04:15] And John and I had that sort of like ability to work quickly together and do things in a in a in a in a in a fast way.

[01:04:22] And just be confident, you just be confident, you know, you've got what you needed to get.

[01:04:26] Right. You know, it's it's I've worked with some actors who appreciate the fact that.

[01:04:33] You know, that by the time they've done it in take three, they've done it and they're not going to, you know, five, six, seven and eight takes aren't isn't going to change things.

[01:04:42] So it's it's I think television, you need to you need to have a little bit of a of a you have to have the confidence to know that you're getting what you get, that you're that the people around you are good enough to give you what you need.

[01:04:54] And that if you're not getting what you need in there, they've been there for a long time, that it's not going to get any better.

[01:04:58] Yeah, you can't exhaust. I had Ed O'Neill tell me once, you can't put this mule in the ditch.

[01:05:05] He won't be getting back up. So I understand you completely.

[01:05:09] One or two takes and that's it. And he was very appreciative.

[01:05:13] Yeah. So some guys just go 15 takes.

[01:05:16] I don't know why. Once you once you have it, you have it.

[01:05:20] I have a technique where, oh, finally, we have we have a print.

[01:05:23] This is fantastic. And that's a wonderful. So let's just go once more.

[01:05:29] It's a free take. It's whatever it comes.

[01:05:32] I would say, whatever it comes, you know, we have it.

[01:05:35] It's in the can. So let's go once more.

[01:05:36] And then everyone's relaxed and they're in a much better spirit.

[01:05:41] And usually that's the best take.

[01:05:43] I remember and I wish I remembered what episode it was.

[01:05:46] And I'm wondering if it was the one where Andre had the stroke, but we were up to M on the slate, which means like not takes, but 13 setups.

[01:05:57] And Andre turned to me and was like, M, M, how many is that?

[01:06:01] So it must have been the stroke, something where there were a lot of quick, different kinds of shots.

[01:06:08] But that stuck out for everyone because we never did that many setups.

[01:06:13] And it stuck out to Andre for him to point that out to me.

[01:06:17] Right. I was I was directing that episode.

[01:06:20] I don't remember why that would have happened.

[01:06:23] But we were in an interrogation room and suddenly has a stroke and falls out onto the laps of the lawyer and the young man being interrogated.

[01:06:38] But again, it's because we had been it's been moving along and getting more and more confident and thinking, well, we have time.

[01:06:46] We can let's try this or let's do this.

[01:06:48] Or at one point I was did with an episode where there were some short scenes.

[01:06:55] So so I would shoot them one way and then re block it completely and shoot it a different way so that you could cut the two blockings together.

[01:07:03] This I'm not sure why I thought that was funny, but we had the time and we had the energy to do it.

[01:07:10] And it was because I had been told by Barry Levinson that the inspiration of the show was a breathless where where the actors kind of jump around the room.

[01:07:23] They're not too concerned with continuity.

[01:07:25] I think Jean-Paul Belmondu could never could hit a mark.

[01:07:28] So he he would end up in a scene at one end of the room and another take it on another end.

[01:07:32] And they just cut all that together.

[01:07:35] So so we'd be inspired to try things.

[01:07:39] And if it didn't work, then like like Nick said, we would reset it, try something else.

[01:07:44] I've often we'd be in the middle of shooting a scene and then it's not clicking.

[01:07:49] We have to we have to re block this.

[01:07:52] That's not a problem.

[01:07:53] Just we re block it.

[01:07:54] OK, now it's going to work much, much better.

[01:07:55] And the freedom to do that without being stuck on a dolly on a track or on on sticks or anything.

[01:08:01] It was much resetting.

[01:08:03] Relighting every single shot.

[01:08:05] For sure.

[01:08:06] So I had a thought, Chris, unless you want to jump in with something.

[01:08:10] I had a thought about this idea of so.

[01:08:12] So, Nick, you worked with all three cameramen that worked on Homicide with Wayne and with Jean and with Alex Zakszewski.

[01:08:20] It's interesting to me that between season one and then when you came back with Jean on season four, the look is much different.

[01:08:28] Not just obviously in the sort of dancerly like quality, but also the lighting was much different with Jean.

[01:08:37] It was a little more colorful.

[01:08:39] There was more spill on the walls.

[01:08:41] It was just a little more artistic because I think Wayne had been told it's run and gun.

[01:08:46] It looks like it is.

[01:08:47] You know, there was I think there was a different edict in the first season.

[01:08:51] But then so you talk about liking to use longer lenses.

[01:08:55] Jean liked to use wider lenses and push in.

[01:08:57] But then when Alex came along, Alex liked to use tighter lenses, too.

[01:09:02] So when you get into season six and seven, there's now they used to say this when I was when I worked at L.A.

[01:09:08] It was a lighting thing, but I was thinking about it with you as a camera thing.

[01:09:13] They used to call when when when the gaffer would put a cutter across it across an actor's face so that there was a shadow right down to here.

[01:09:24] They called it a Warner Brothers haircut.

[01:09:26] Now, by the time we get to season six and seven with you, Nick, and with Alex, we're looking at Warner Brothers haircut like in the frame of the shot.

[01:09:38] So we're seeing close ups like we're running the whole scene in close ups like this.

[01:09:43] So did that sort of once you got with Alex, who also was a long lens person, the style changed through these three different cameramen.

[01:09:52] Can you can you talk a little bit about that?

[01:09:54] Or was it just sort of organic the way it worked?

[01:09:57] And also Alex's lighting schemes were much, much darker than John's.

[01:10:02] Yeah, I mean, for me, it was organic and I wasn't really I don't know if I was.

[01:10:07] You know, I by the time I started working with Alex, I don't know which one of you guys invented the butt dolly, but you should you should have you should have.

[01:10:17] Because now they're everywhere.

[01:10:19] Right. And so the butt dolly was a big part of what Alex's toolbox was.

[01:10:23] You know, he was really always sort of doing that and always kind of like using using that to sort of like in the box, as it were.

[01:10:30] You know, he was always sort of like making use of that and panning around.

[01:10:33] And so I thought that was just great.

[01:10:34] You know, I think that I think that there's a couple there's a couple of scenes where I know I thought I went too tight.

[01:10:42] Where I felt like where I felt like I was overdoing the close ups.

[01:10:47] And sometimes when you I feel like if I'm working in close ups too much, it's kind of like typing in all caps.

[01:10:52] Right.

[01:10:53] So I just like there was there.

[01:10:57] And also the thing is, is that as you're progressing as a as a filmmaker, you are exposed to different kinds of work.

[01:11:04] And then you want at least for myself.

[01:11:06] And then I want to try different kinds of techniques.

[01:11:08] You want to try things.

[01:11:10] You want to try to you want to you know, you want to use this this this this this this arena as a way to to to exercise your skills.

[01:11:18] So now now I'm working with extreme close ups.

[01:11:21] Now I'm working with telephoto lenses.

[01:11:22] Now I'm working with something wider.

[01:11:23] Now I'm looking.

[01:11:24] The one thing that I liked about Alex is that Alex was a little shorter.

[01:11:28] And I and I'm a big fan of being just a little bit lower.

[01:11:32] I'm a big fan of shooting from knees and elbows because I've I've always my theories that it actually sort of replicates replicates your experience as a child.

[01:11:41] And so it gives it gives the characters a kind of a power and authority.

[01:11:44] So that's something that I was able to sort of like work with Alex where John is fairly tall.

[01:11:48] Alex is shorter.

[01:11:49] So naturally, he's going to have a slightly lower angle looking at everybody.

[01:11:52] That's interesting.

[01:11:53] And, you know, Alex, I don't know.

[01:11:54] I don't know if you guys trained Alex or if he just had his because he was quite good at handheld.

[01:11:59] Yeah, he was on the beat camera a lot with John.

[01:12:01] And I will give John props.

[01:12:03] John was the butt dolly.

[01:12:04] And John and Josh, the key grip, they were the ones that came up with the butt dolly.

[01:12:09] So let's put that on them.

[01:12:11] But go ahead.

[01:12:11] Yeah.

[01:12:12] Panavision think that 24 invented it, though.

[01:12:15] Bullshit.

[01:12:15] It's the thing I noticed on their website.

[01:12:17] Yeah, no way.

[01:12:19] And it's interesting you say that about low angles because I wrote that down as a note on Fire Part 2 that it was notable in your episode that there were more low angles.

[01:12:29] So that's interesting that you brought that up as something that.

[01:12:31] But I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

[01:12:33] What was your question to John?

[01:12:34] Oh, about Alex learning the technique.

[01:12:38] Well, Alex and I knew each other from shooting 60 Minutes together or shooting West 57th Street together.

[01:12:47] And that's how I brought him onto the show, onto Homicide.

[01:12:53] At one point, I had to go see my father in France.

[01:12:57] So Alex came in and replaced me for a few days.

[01:13:01] And then whenever I needed a day off, he would come in and eventually he took over the show.

[01:13:07] So we came from the same sensibility.

[01:13:10] Alex was Polish.

[01:13:13] He knew my film teacher.

[01:13:14] And all the philosophy behind the handheld camera as being the fluid handheld camera, not the shaky handheld camera.

[01:13:27] The fluid handheld camera.

[01:13:28] Yeah.

[01:13:29] And he would come in.

[01:13:31] When we had extra camera, he would be the B camera operator.

[01:13:33] So, yeah, he was on the set a lot with John together.

[01:13:37] That's interesting.

[01:13:37] I have a question for you, John.

[01:13:38] So, like, usually in shows now, it's always two cameras, right?

[01:13:43] You've always got A and B.

[01:13:45] But I still think with one camera.

[01:13:48] And I'm often in a situation where I don't have anything for the B camera to do.

[01:13:51] Well, that happens.

[01:13:52] Absolutely.

[01:13:53] Do you always?

[01:13:54] Yeah.

[01:13:55] So do you do that?

[01:13:56] No, no.

[01:13:58] I always have the B camera.

[01:13:59] If I can't find something for the guy to do.

[01:14:01] And if he can't find something for himself to do, then he shouldn't be around.

[01:14:05] He should look for something.

[01:14:06] That's correct.

[01:14:07] And stay out of the way if possible.

[01:14:10] But, in fact, in some instances, I'll insist on three cameras.

[01:14:15] Oh, yeah.

[01:14:17] There's absolutely no problem for me to set up or work with three cameras.

[01:14:20] Since I can't take the camera and move around and they want this kind of coverage, I may as well have three cameras.

[01:14:27] It's easy to light with back lights and become the key lights with the other people.

[01:14:32] And you can use three cameras and be a lot more effective and move a lot quicker.

[01:14:39] But, in many cases, no, a single camera is all you're going to have because you're making it.

[01:14:44] And now, in my case, I'm doing Steadicam shots that develop and move around.

[01:14:52] The Steadicam, they can't do the little swings back and forth.

[01:14:55] Well, I know one guy who can, two guys.

[01:14:57] But so I have to design a shot that's fluid and that the operator can handle.

[01:15:05] There are some operators.

[01:15:06] There are two of them that I know of who can do the shot absolutely smooth and swing

[01:15:11] and catch the next guy coming in and back up and do all this just as if it were handheld.

[01:15:18] Yeah.

[01:15:18] I like those guys.

[01:15:19] The three camera days, that's always a producer's bane.

[01:15:23] Because, like, if you have a lot of faces, like a lot of people,

[01:15:27] and, you know, you've got only a certain amount of time to do it,

[01:15:29] then you bring in a C operator or you bump up, you know,

[01:15:33] you bump up one of the ACs to operate.

[01:15:36] And you've sometimes got a situation where you've got three cameras jammed together

[01:15:39] and every shot is a compromise.

[01:15:40] Right, right, right.

[01:15:42] Well, yeah.

[01:15:43] Because none of them can be in the right place.

[01:15:45] Well, I worked with one DP, Michael Lohman.

[01:15:49] He had a very good technique where the two cameras would crisscross

[01:15:53] and the other one would be in the middle on the track.

[01:15:55] And he'd light in such a way that everything is lit perfectly.

[01:15:58] And we had eight-hour days.

[01:16:01] But that can be quite boring because then you're just doing your close-up and overs.

[01:16:07] So that would be liberally thrown in.

[01:16:13] It would be some moving cameras, some master shots and things like that.

[01:16:18] You've got to mix it up.

[01:16:19] You can't just stick to one technique.

[01:16:21] Yeah, you do.

[01:16:23] That's correct.

[01:16:27] Well, Nick, are there any sort of, just looking back at your time on Humicide,

[01:16:32] are there any sort of memories of being on the show that really sort of stick with you?

[01:16:37] Like whether it be collaborations of actors or episodes that you're really pleased with

[01:16:41] or anything like that?

[01:16:43] Well, James Earl Jones was obviously great.

[01:16:45] It was an amazing guy to work with.

[01:16:47] And I had a film teacher named Ari Avakian who had made a very experimental feature

[01:16:57] with James Earl Jones called End of the Road, which nobody had really seen.

[01:17:03] Also had Stacey Keach.

[01:17:05] Very weird movie.

[01:17:08] So we were able to sort of like bond.

[01:17:12] Well, bond.

[01:17:13] He was unhappy with the movie because he thought it was too experimental,

[01:17:16] but he was surprised that somebody had actually seen it.

[01:17:21] So we were able to sort of like, we were able to, you know,

[01:17:24] find some common ground to talk about.

[01:17:26] But James Earl Jones was amazing to work with.

[01:17:28] And it was really great.

[01:17:29] Andre working with James Earl Jones,

[01:17:32] because they both come from a very astute, classically trained background.

[01:17:37] I know that Andre was just on fire working with him and was just so pumped

[01:17:46] that it was really, it was a really exciting time for him.

[01:17:49] And then, but one thing that, an episode that really struck,

[01:17:53] that sticks out for me is Saigon Rose.

[01:17:56] Because of a woman named Camille, Camille Ali,

[01:18:02] who played the murderous female police officer,

[01:18:05] who gave this incredible, she'd never done anything before or since.

[01:18:10] Really?

[01:18:11] And she just came onto the set and sort of like landed this,

[01:18:16] this, this, the, this kind of level of psychosis and self-importance

[01:18:23] and narcissism and all of the sort of,

[01:18:26] all of that kind of ugly,

[01:18:28] confused psychosis that goes into a criminal mind.

[01:18:31] She was able to sort of nail it in such a way,

[01:18:33] because she spent a lot of time in the box, you know, with them.

[01:18:36] And she just, from being very defiant in the beginning

[01:18:39] to finally sort of like giving up,

[01:18:41] but still being self-righteous about why she committed

[01:18:43] these horrible murders.

[01:18:45] It was a real, it was a real treat to sort of have,

[01:18:48] to have someone so surprising without any kind of name recognition

[01:18:53] to give such a rich performance.

[01:18:54] And I just thought that script was also really rich.

[01:18:56] I thought it was really, a really kind of like,

[01:18:59] the A story was very big and very dynamic and very brassy.

[01:19:04] So it was a really exciting episode for me to work on.

[01:19:07] Also because the story was just so big and so tragic.

[01:19:09] Chris and I were talking before we came on about how great

[01:19:12] her performance was.

[01:19:14] I mean, she was really stunning in a very real,

[01:19:19] it felt very real.

[01:19:21] And we were, we were wondering if she'd done anything since then.

[01:19:23] She did, there's one, there's one line when she's,

[01:19:26] they're getting ready to take her into the box for the first time.

[01:19:28] And I think maybe Kyle said, you want a cup of coffee?

[01:19:32] Sort of offhanded, a cup of coffee.

[01:19:34] And she starts walking away and she goes, yeah, because it's so good.

[01:19:38] It's so damn good.

[01:19:39] So damn good. Right.

[01:19:41] Yeah. Well, she did all of those little,

[01:19:42] she did all of those little things.

[01:19:44] Cause I really, I, I, when I talked to her about the character,

[01:19:47] I really want her, I wanted her to be not qualified for the job.

[01:19:52] You know, and I, I, I wanted her to sort of like get words wrong.

[01:19:57] I wanted her to not be properly educated.

[01:19:59] I wanted her to be sort of like, you know,

[01:20:03] a result of like what America does wrong.

[01:20:07] Right. With our education system, with our, with our,

[01:20:10] as a society in general,

[01:20:11] I wanted her to be the results of that.

[01:20:13] Right. And then the psychosis and, and, and,

[01:20:16] and the need to sort of like to, to, to get some,

[01:20:19] to get something for themselves, even if they have to kill to get it.

[01:20:23] Right. And, and, and that, and that,

[01:20:25] and those kinds of struggles and that kind of like that desperation.

[01:20:28] And then feeling like, I, I, you know,

[01:20:30] and also the racism that she had for the Vietnamese, all of that,

[01:20:34] all of that sort of like really sort of like rolled into,

[01:20:37] into a, like a really sort of like potent episode.

[01:20:40] And she got it right away. She was really just,

[01:20:42] she was just really just really good.

[01:20:44] And all the other, and all the other cat, you know, you know,

[01:20:47] Andre, everybody,

[01:20:48] everybody was really, really, really excited to work with her.

[01:20:51] I mean, I remember Yoffin sort of said like,

[01:20:52] where'd you find her? And it's like, you know, the great,

[01:20:55] who was our casting director?

[01:20:56] I can't remember her name because she was the best in the world.

[01:20:59] Well, local was Pat Moran.

[01:21:00] And I think outside was Lou DiGiomo, right?

[01:21:04] Yeah. Oh, that's right. Lou. That's right. Lou.

[01:21:06] Yeah. Pat Moran. Pat Moran.

[01:21:07] But that was what was always so surprising working on the show is how many

[01:21:12] talented people will come on the show who were just plucked off the streets

[01:21:15] of Baltimore.

[01:21:15] That's right. It's incredible.

[01:21:18] Yeah.

[01:21:18] Question actually on that,

[01:21:19] how did the casting work in the kind of process of,

[01:21:23] of preparing an episode?

[01:21:25] Did you come in on castings and things or?

[01:21:28] Oh yeah.

[01:21:29] Right. Cause you had some people from Laws of Gravity and even from,

[01:21:32] even from New Jersey Drive that ended up on Homicide.

[01:21:35] So did you have,

[01:21:36] Chris and I were talking about that too.

[01:21:38] Did you have some input on casting?

[01:21:40] Well, I mean, you know, Edie Falco, Adam Tracy, Paul Schulze, you know,

[01:21:47] I mean the thing about Tom, Tom wanted you to direct your movie,

[01:21:53] you know?

[01:21:53] And if you had some ideas for casting, he wasn't going to be, he, you know,

[01:21:58] sometimes you're working with producers who don't want to give you the

[01:22:01] satisfaction of a win.

[01:22:02] Okay.

[01:22:03] Right.

[01:22:04] They want to be in charge.

[01:22:06] Right.

[01:22:06] So it's, but I think Tom wanted you to make your movie.

[01:22:09] I think, I think that he felt like, okay,

[01:22:12] so you've worked with these actors before I've seen them.

[01:22:13] I know they're good.

[01:22:14] Let's do it.

[01:22:15] That's at least that's experience that I had.

[01:22:17] I mean, the thing, the thing about working on Homicide,

[01:22:19] the big overall and, you know, being a TV professional is that in some ways

[01:22:24] Homicide was terrible training to work in the TV industry.

[01:22:28] Right.

[01:22:28] For traditional TV.

[01:22:30] Absolutely.

[01:22:31] Right.

[01:22:31] Because it was like the, it was like the whole environment was like an

[01:22:34] Italian kitchen where everybody is just yelling at each other all the

[01:22:39] time.

[01:22:40] Yet, obviously it's, it's with love.

[01:22:43] Right.

[01:22:43] And it's with compassion, but it's also with passion.

[01:22:46] But like when you, when you go out into a more, the more,

[01:22:49] but when I started working in Los Angeles, the more buttoned down

[01:22:51] environment, it's like, Oh, okay.

[01:22:53] You know,

[01:22:54] you really sort of had to mind your P's and Q's because Tom would,

[01:22:58] Tom would walk on the set and would have no problem with having an open

[01:23:01] argument with a director or with a cast member right there in front of

[01:23:05] everybody.

[01:23:06] Because that's the kind of, that's the kind of person that he was.

[01:23:08] He felt like it all should be, should be shaken out, you know,

[01:23:12] in the open.

[01:23:13] You know, he had a really great general,

[01:23:15] there's a great generosity in working with that.

[01:23:17] Cause you know, you're, you know, you're always sort of being,

[01:23:19] being heard.

[01:23:20] Maybe you're not, you're maybe not winning every, every battle.

[01:23:22] You have to choose what hill you're going to die on.

[01:23:24] But he had a really, a really an open,

[01:23:27] an open and generous arena with which to work in.

[01:23:31] And luckily for us,

[01:23:33] tremendous scripts one after the other.

[01:23:36] It makes a big, big difference.

[01:23:38] Yeah.

[01:23:39] Now there was even an actress,

[01:23:40] Samantha Brown,

[01:23:41] who was in New Jersey drive and played the protagonist,

[01:23:45] little sister.

[01:23:46] She ended up in season seven on the Y chromosome,

[01:23:51] which was with Michael Michelle and,

[01:23:54] and Callie together.

[01:23:56] And she played,

[01:23:57] she played Samantha Brown played the gang,

[01:24:00] the girl gang leader.

[01:24:02] She was looking amazing.

[01:24:05] She's another amazing actress.

[01:24:07] And so when I go back and I watch New Jersey drive,

[01:24:09] I'm like, wow,

[01:24:10] she's a little sister in this.

[01:24:12] And she was this awesome gang leader a couple of years later.

[01:24:15] And homicide.

[01:24:17] Really, really strong actor.

[01:24:19] Yeah.

[01:24:19] Really strong.

[01:24:20] Really, very talented.

[01:24:21] Yeah.

[01:24:22] And also in that episode blood ties,

[01:24:24] you had Jeffrey Wright,

[01:24:25] who's a fantastic actor.

[01:24:26] And that was quite an early role for him.

[01:24:28] I think,

[01:24:28] wasn't it?

[01:24:29] It was.

[01:24:30] Yeah.

[01:24:31] Yeah.

[01:24:32] Jeffrey,

[01:24:32] Jeffrey and I became friends after that.

[01:24:33] And I would go to,

[01:24:34] you know,

[01:24:34] go to,

[01:24:34] when I would go to LA,

[01:24:35] I would have,

[01:24:36] he would always throw these big,

[01:24:37] enormous,

[01:24:39] intimidating Hollywood parties.

[01:24:40] Really?

[01:24:42] Which was,

[01:24:43] which.

[01:24:44] That's funny.

[01:24:45] But yeah,

[01:24:45] Jeffrey,

[01:24:46] well,

[01:24:46] listen,

[01:24:46] you know,

[01:24:47] Jeffrey Wright,

[01:24:49] the subtlety,

[01:24:51] you know,

[01:24:51] has,

[01:24:52] you know,

[01:24:52] has,

[01:24:52] has Garrity is just like laying into him.

[01:24:55] The sort of like the honesty and the simplicity and the subtleties that they brought to it.

[01:24:58] Obviously you could,

[01:24:59] you could just sort of,

[01:24:59] you saw,

[01:25:00] you know,

[01:25:01] the actor that he was,

[01:25:02] that he was going to grow into from,

[01:25:03] just from those little scenes.

[01:25:05] Yeah.

[01:25:05] American fiction should have been best picture.

[01:25:07] Yeah.

[01:25:08] I love that film.

[01:25:08] Absolutely.

[01:25:09] That was amazing.

[01:25:10] Yeah.

[01:25:10] I love that movie.

[01:25:11] Amazing film.

[01:25:12] So,

[01:25:14] talk a little bit about,

[01:25:15] and we're getting close to the end here.

[01:25:17] What,

[01:25:17] talk a bit,

[01:25:17] a little bit about,

[01:25:18] you know,

[01:25:19] you just mentioned not good training for traditional,

[01:25:24] you know,

[01:25:25] Hollywood TV filmmaking,

[01:25:27] not good training for any kind of traditional Hollywood filmmaking.

[01:25:32] So,

[01:25:33] you know,

[01:25:33] when you go from homicide to,

[01:25:36] and you did obviously lots and lots and lots of big network episodics.

[01:25:42] Did you,

[01:25:43] were you able to take anything?

[01:25:44] You did mention earlier,

[01:25:45] you always wanted to get,

[01:25:47] you know,

[01:25:47] one moving wide shot.

[01:25:49] What were we able to take with you?

[01:25:51] And Joan,

[01:25:51] you can answer this too after Nick.

[01:25:55] Um,

[01:25:55] you know,

[01:25:56] I could see the level of frustration,

[01:25:57] not being able to take a lot of that with you,

[01:25:59] but what did,

[01:26:00] what did you,

[01:26:01] what were you able to take?

[01:26:03] I think that every time,

[01:26:05] you know,

[01:26:05] the,

[01:26:05] for me,

[01:26:06] the,

[01:26:06] the rule that I would apply to myself on any kind of project is that I want,

[01:26:10] I'm here because I want to learn something about the people that I'm working with and the people that I'm collaborating with and,

[01:26:16] and,

[01:26:16] and the,

[01:26:17] the approach to filmmaking.

[01:26:18] If I come away,

[01:26:19] if I,

[01:26:19] if I do a project and I've come away without,

[01:26:22] without any sort of like valuable lessons or some sort of valuable relationship that's been gained from it,

[01:26:26] I feel like I haven't really done it because it's like to show up on a set with a bunch of people that are,

[01:26:33] that are,

[01:26:34] that got into film for one reason or another,

[01:26:36] but often it's for a love of,

[01:26:38] of film or for a love of cinema or for a love of making things.

[01:26:42] So you want to find those people and you want to find those,

[01:26:45] those moments where you sort of like surreptitiously sneak in some real cinematic moments where you sneak in the stuff that's kind of interesting or the stuff,

[01:26:53] the stuff that plays differently.

[01:26:55] And,

[01:26:55] and,

[01:26:56] you know,

[01:26:56] hopefully the people that you're working for appreciate it.

[01:27:00] In general,

[01:27:01] in general,

[01:27:02] they do,

[01:27:03] but it just,

[01:27:03] it's,

[01:27:04] it was just,

[01:27:04] it was a tough transition to,

[01:27:07] to,

[01:27:07] I mean,

[01:27:07] when I first walked onto the set of New Jersey drive,

[01:27:10] where it had a big Hollywood,

[01:27:12] well,

[01:27:12] $6 million,

[01:27:13] whatever.

[01:27:13] So trucks,

[01:27:14] crew,

[01:27:15] people coming up to me,

[01:27:17] calling me,

[01:27:17] sir,

[01:27:17] handing me coffees.

[01:27:18] I literally wanted to get back in the cab and go back home because it was just too big.

[01:27:24] I wanted to go back to sort of like the small stuff that John and I had done.

[01:27:28] The America's most wanted laws of gravity,

[01:27:30] where it's just a handful of people and they're people that,

[01:27:32] you know,

[01:27:33] you know all their names and you're working together.

[01:27:35] They're like,

[01:27:36] like,

[01:27:36] like it's a band that you've been playing with all these years.

[01:27:39] Right.

[01:27:40] And so when you're working on something bigger,

[01:27:42] you're like a session musician and you're coming in,

[01:27:45] let's say you're playing bass every once in a while,

[01:27:47] you're hoping that you can hit a couple of notes that add a little something that,

[01:27:51] that,

[01:27:52] that's personal to you,

[01:27:53] that,

[01:27:53] that,

[01:27:53] that shows who you are as an artist and expresses those little moments.

[01:27:59] That's,

[01:28:00] that's,

[01:28:00] that's,

[01:28:01] that's what you can hope for.

[01:28:01] And some shows,

[01:28:02] like when I work with Blake Masters on,

[01:28:04] on Brotherhood,

[01:28:05] you know,

[01:28:06] he completely embraced everything that we had done before and wanted that sort of approach for the show and was,

[01:28:12] was aware of our histories,

[01:28:13] but then there's shows.

[01:28:15] And then also when I worked on the shield,

[01:28:16] the shield was all about 16 millimeter.

[01:28:18] I mean,

[01:28:19] they'd stolen basically all of the techniques from homicide.

[01:28:21] Right.

[01:28:22] And so that was a show that also embraced the style.

[01:28:25] And so that's,

[01:28:25] that's a show where you can really just sort of like continue and maintain that,

[01:28:29] what you would create before and do it with a sense of fun and sense of purpose.

[01:28:33] But then if you're working on,

[01:28:34] on shows that are more traditional,

[01:28:35] sometimes it's just a little bit harder to sort of push the boundaries and make things,

[01:28:40] uh,

[01:28:40] that,

[01:28:41] that,

[01:28:41] that stand out or that are,

[01:28:42] that,

[01:28:43] that you relate to as an artist.

[01:28:44] Yeah.

[01:28:45] It was interesting going,

[01:28:46] watching as a double feature,

[01:28:48] New Jersey,

[01:28:49] I mean,

[01:28:49] watching Laws of Gravity and then New Jersey Drive right up against each other.

[01:28:53] And it's almost like you could see,

[01:28:54] you could see the pressure on you of the larger production and maybe,

[01:28:58] I don't know,

[01:28:58] was Spike looking over your shoulder or not,

[01:29:01] but that there was more traditional filmmaking happened,

[01:29:05] but then there were the Laws of Gravity shots.

[01:29:07] Then there,

[01:29:07] there were the frenetic,

[01:29:09] more,

[01:29:09] um,

[01:29:10] in your face,

[01:29:11] kinetic feel,

[01:29:12] um,

[01:29:13] that,

[01:29:14] that,

[01:29:14] that you brought from.

[01:29:15] So it was a combination of both of the,

[01:29:17] but the traditional sort of melded with,

[01:29:19] with what you had brought from Laws of Gravity.

[01:29:22] Well,

[01:29:22] yeah,

[01:29:22] the biggest,

[01:29:23] the biggest problem for New Jersey Drive is that I didn't hire Jean to be the DP,

[01:29:27] you know,

[01:29:28] because,

[01:29:28] because Spike Lee and Universal and all those guys are like,

[01:29:31] oh,

[01:29:31] Jean,

[01:29:32] you know,

[01:29:32] he doesn't have enough experience.

[01:29:33] This is a big show,

[01:29:35] blah,

[01:29:35] blah,

[01:29:35] blah.

[01:29:36] You need to get a guy that's done a feature before.

[01:29:38] That's a real feature,

[01:29:39] you know?

[01:29:40] And,

[01:29:40] and so what was lost was the,

[01:29:42] was the intimacy,

[01:29:44] right?

[01:29:44] That someone like Jean can bring to it.

[01:29:46] I'm working with,

[01:29:47] I'm working with a guy that,

[01:29:48] you know,

[01:29:49] was great at lighting.

[01:29:50] Everything took forever.

[01:29:51] You know,

[01:29:52] we're working with these big Panavision cameras.

[01:29:54] Cause I was like,

[01:29:55] I want to do everything handheld.

[01:29:56] I want to do it.

[01:29:56] And they're like,

[01:29:57] oh,

[01:29:57] you want to do everything handheld?

[01:29:58] Well,

[01:29:58] we're shooting on a big pan.

[01:29:59] We're shooting Panavision and we have big lenses and we have thousand foot max.

[01:30:04] That's going to be tough.

[01:30:05] And,

[01:30:05] you know,

[01:30:06] and the studio is like,

[01:30:07] oh,

[01:30:07] we want this to look really pretty because you're making a film about people who's,

[01:30:10] who,

[01:30:10] you know,

[01:30:11] who are making questionable choices and we need to make sure it's,

[01:30:13] it appeals to everybody.

[01:30:15] So if it's too gritty,

[01:30:16] you can't,

[01:30:16] you know,

[01:30:16] you're putting a hat on a hat and all that kind of stuff.

[01:30:20] And it was pretty.

[01:30:21] Yeah.

[01:30:21] Pretty.

[01:30:22] Even down to the wardrobe.

[01:30:23] It was pretty.

[01:30:24] Everything was prettier.

[01:30:25] It's interesting.

[01:30:26] It was very,

[01:30:26] yeah,

[01:30:26] it was very,

[01:30:27] you know,

[01:30:27] it's,

[01:30:27] it was a universe.

[01:30:29] You know,

[01:30:29] Spike has an aesthetic that has,

[01:30:31] that adds a little bit of a glamour to people that are living in trouble

[01:30:35] circumstances.

[01:30:36] And that was just a little bit against my aesthetic,

[01:30:37] what my aesthetic was.

[01:30:39] So John,

[01:30:40] you talked a lot,

[01:30:40] you talk a lot about,

[01:30:41] or you've mentioned a lot that the frustrations of going to traditional

[01:30:45] episodic,

[01:30:46] what,

[01:30:46] what are the things you're able to take now that you're,

[01:30:48] you don't have the camera on your shoulder,

[01:30:50] what are the things you were able to take?

[01:30:53] Or are you from homicide,

[01:30:55] you know,

[01:30:56] in the,

[01:30:56] in the other network dramas that you're directing?

[01:30:59] Well,

[01:30:59] what,

[01:31:00] what I bring to the work I'm doing now is,

[01:31:04] is the ease of storytelling.

[01:31:08] I'm responsible for telling the story.

[01:31:10] Now,

[01:31:10] how can I tell it in,

[01:31:11] in the most exciting and fluid and urgent way?

[01:31:18] How,

[01:31:18] how can I keep,

[01:31:20] keep the attention on what the actors are doing?

[01:31:23] That's,

[01:31:24] that's,

[01:31:25] is really my only concern.

[01:31:27] And I've,

[01:31:28] of course,

[01:31:28] have had to let go a little bit.

[01:31:31] And,

[01:31:31] um,

[01:31:32] the,

[01:31:33] the,

[01:31:34] the techniques for laws and gravity,

[01:31:35] they were,

[01:31:35] they were,

[01:31:36] and for homicide were,

[01:31:37] were fantastic for those particular projects,

[01:31:39] but for some others are not,

[01:31:41] not quite.

[01:31:43] for instance,

[01:31:44] uh,

[01:31:44] I was supposed to shoot a film for John McNaughton called Henry Portrait of a

[01:31:48] serial killer.

[01:31:49] Oh yeah.

[01:31:50] And I had just moved to New York and,

[01:31:54] and I had,

[01:31:54] I had to call him.

[01:31:55] I had,

[01:31:55] I had just gotten this,

[01:31:56] a bunch of jobs of shooting documentaries in Spain and,

[01:31:59] and in Honduras and all this stuff.

[01:32:02] And I called him,

[01:32:02] I said,

[01:32:03] I'm sorry,

[01:32:04] John,

[01:32:04] I'm not going to be able to shoot your film.

[01:32:05] And,

[01:32:06] uh,

[01:32:07] he was very upset with me,

[01:32:08] but he ended up getting a,

[01:32:13] a DP who was doing commercials in Chicago.

[01:32:17] And that movie is absolutely meticulous in this objectiveness.

[01:32:22] It's extremely,

[01:32:24] almost cold.

[01:32:25] And that's what made that movie great.

[01:32:27] I think.

[01:32:28] Interesting.

[01:32:28] And had I shot his film,

[01:32:30] uh,

[01:32:31] we would never have heard of John McNaughton.

[01:32:33] I don't think.

[01:32:34] No,

[01:32:35] of course he was gone on to be a great,

[01:32:37] great filmmaker,

[01:32:37] but I think I would have ruined his film.

[01:32:40] I don't think that his film was,

[01:32:42] was,

[01:32:43] uh,

[01:32:43] wanting the kind of subjective camera that,

[01:32:46] that I was into at the time.

[01:32:48] And I certainly would have tried to sell him on had I been shooting,

[01:32:51] uh,

[01:32:51] Henry,

[01:32:51] because Henry was also,

[01:32:52] you're with this serial killer and you're,

[01:32:54] you're going around and following him about.

[01:32:56] I,

[01:32:56] I would have done an exactly the same way.

[01:32:58] Uh,

[01:32:59] not,

[01:32:59] not,

[01:33:00] not like a homicide where it's one take,

[01:33:02] but,

[01:33:02] um,

[01:33:03] certainly with that kind of fluid fluidity in mind.

[01:33:05] Uh,

[01:33:06] but I thought that the,

[01:33:07] the,

[01:33:08] the more objective camera work that he got with this other DP was extremely

[01:33:12] effective for,

[01:33:13] for his film.

[01:33:15] So,

[01:33:15] so,

[01:33:16] so every project has its own.

[01:33:19] I,

[01:33:19] I,

[01:33:20] I,

[01:33:20] I,

[01:33:20] I finally did shoot a film for John McNaughton.

[01:33:23] It's,

[01:33:23] it's called Normal Life.

[01:33:25] And,

[01:33:26] uh,

[01:33:26] I remember we're,

[01:33:27] we're sending the,

[01:33:28] uh,

[01:33:29] the,

[01:33:29] the dailies in and,

[01:33:31] um,

[01:33:31] the production people are calling in and complaining.

[01:33:35] What,

[01:33:35] what,

[01:33:35] what's going on?

[01:33:36] Where,

[01:33:36] where's the law of gravity?

[01:33:38] Where,

[01:33:38] where,

[01:33:38] where,

[01:33:38] where's the handheld crazy camera?

[01:33:40] What the fuck?

[01:33:41] What's going on?

[01:33:42] And,

[01:33:42] uh,

[01:33:42] well,

[01:33:43] it's a different kind of movie.

[01:33:45] This is,

[01:33:47] uh,

[01:33:47] much,

[01:33:48] uh,

[01:33:49] more,

[01:33:49] uh,

[01:33:50] uh,

[01:33:51] very,

[01:33:51] very private,

[01:33:52] very intimate movie about a couple.

[01:33:55] And,

[01:33:56] um,

[01:33:56] and certainly there were some handheld scenes and the cameras running around when they're fighting,

[01:34:00] whatever.

[01:34:01] But,

[01:34:01] uh,

[01:34:01] most of it is,

[01:34:02] is,

[01:34:02] is very carefully designed and choreographed.

[01:34:05] And that's what that film,

[01:34:07] uh,

[01:34:09] needed.

[01:34:09] And I thought it was an extremely successful film.

[01:34:12] It turned out very,

[01:34:13] very nicely.

[01:34:14] Um,

[01:34:14] so,

[01:34:14] so it's,

[01:34:16] it's,

[01:34:16] it's,

[01:34:17] yes,

[01:34:17] so I,

[01:34:17] I get on all these other shows and I still try to be me.

[01:34:21] I still try to do my thing.

[01:34:23] Um,

[01:34:24] and,

[01:34:25] um,

[01:34:25] I mostly get away with it.

[01:34:27] I think that's super,

[01:34:28] I think that's super important.

[01:34:29] I think that like,

[01:34:30] you have to be you and you,

[01:34:32] you,

[01:34:32] if,

[01:34:32] cause if you're not being you,

[01:34:34] if you're just showing up and pushing buttons,

[01:34:36] that's,

[01:34:37] that's just death.

[01:34:38] Right.

[01:34:39] Boring.

[01:34:39] Yeah.

[01:34:39] So,

[01:34:40] so it's like,

[01:34:41] you know,

[01:34:42] I feel,

[01:34:43] you know,

[01:34:43] no matter how traditional the show is,

[01:34:45] I feel like if I watch the cut afterwards,

[01:34:47] I'm like,

[01:34:48] yeah,

[01:34:48] that's,

[01:34:49] that's something that I directed.

[01:34:51] Right.

[01:34:52] And,

[01:34:52] and that's,

[01:34:53] that's all you can do.

[01:34:54] You,

[01:34:54] you just have to show up and really work as a director because I hear plenty of stories from people that I work with on various shows that directors show up and they don't direct.

[01:35:03] Right.

[01:35:05] I hear that all the time.

[01:35:06] That's what gave me the idea to direct.

[01:35:08] In fact,

[01:35:09] I was very happy as a DP on homicide and,

[01:35:12] and several directors came in who were absolutely sensational,

[01:35:18] like Chris Winnell or,

[01:35:19] or anyway,

[01:35:21] so,

[01:35:21] so many great guys who come in,

[01:35:23] Uli Adele,

[01:35:24] but many came in who did absolutely nothing.

[01:35:27] So that's how it gave me the idea.

[01:35:29] Well,

[01:35:29] maybe,

[01:35:29] maybe I should try my hand at this.

[01:35:31] This could,

[01:35:32] this might be fun.

[01:35:33] And,

[01:35:34] so,

[01:35:34] so when,

[01:35:35] when I visit a set,

[01:35:38] usually,

[01:35:38] not always,

[01:35:39] but,

[01:35:39] uh,

[01:35:40] the crew is usually,

[01:35:42] Can I say they're happy to see me?

[01:35:44] Maybe.

[01:35:45] Yes.

[01:35:45] Because they know it's going to go efficiently.

[01:35:47] It's going to go fast and we're going to have fun.

[01:35:49] We're going to have,

[01:35:49] have some jokes and we're going to,

[01:35:51] um,

[01:35:52] find a cool ways of doing things and not the usual,

[01:35:55] uh,

[01:35:56] librarian,

[01:35:57] uh,

[01:35:57] style approach to filmmaking.

[01:35:59] Uh,

[01:36:00] we're going to try to mix it up.

[01:36:02] And,

[01:36:02] um,

[01:36:03] of course,

[01:36:03] if,

[01:36:03] if there's,

[01:36:04] if there's a look book,

[01:36:06] uh,

[01:36:06] that the show has,

[01:36:08] certainly I'll,

[01:36:08] I'll,

[01:36:09] I'll look,

[01:36:09] I'll consider it and look it over and the DP will be responsible because the look book mostly is about lighting,

[01:36:14] but it's not about where the camera goes,

[01:36:17] how the camera flows,

[01:36:18] how the camera connects one person to another.

[01:36:21] So I,

[01:36:22] I,

[01:36:22] the camera is still mine when I'm directing.

[01:36:25] You know,

[01:36:25] I,

[01:36:26] I'd like to collaborate with the operators and with the DP,

[01:36:29] but in the end,

[01:36:30] no,

[01:36:31] I,

[01:36:31] I really feel we should be going from here to here and we should be moving around and finding this and making this note and making this punctuation.

[01:36:39] If they don't like it,

[01:36:40] they won't hire me again.

[01:36:41] That,

[01:36:42] that's right.

[01:36:42] Because,

[01:36:43] you know,

[01:36:43] there's a thing,

[01:36:44] there's a,

[01:36:44] there's a,

[01:36:44] there's a term that they use until a director who's hands on,

[01:36:48] right.

[01:36:48] And who's making lens choices.

[01:36:50] Who's,

[01:36:50] who's,

[01:36:51] who's,

[01:36:51] who's,

[01:36:52] who's organizing the coverage and how it's going to be done.

[01:36:55] And it's not every,

[01:36:56] not every situation wants a director to be hands on.

[01:37:01] And sometimes even the DP doesn't want a director to be hands on.

[01:37:06] You know,

[01:37:06] they want to completely control like what lens is being used.

[01:37:09] And so when you show up,

[01:37:10] you,

[01:37:10] I like to walk up to the DP and say,

[01:37:12] listen,

[01:37:12] what,

[01:37:13] what do you like to do?

[01:37:14] What lenses do you like to work with?

[01:37:15] Also like what lenses works better for,

[01:37:18] because sometimes you work with people that require,

[01:37:20] a certain amount of lighting and control to protect them.

[01:37:24] Right.

[01:37:24] So then I like to find out what their process is.

[01:37:27] Does this person like this lens?

[01:37:29] Does this person like,

[01:37:30] can,

[01:37:30] can I move around with this actor?

[01:37:33] Right.

[01:37:33] Or do I need it?

[01:37:34] Or are they being covered with like,

[01:37:36] with like reflectors everywhere.

[01:37:37] And if they stand up,

[01:37:38] they just completely lose that,

[01:37:40] that controlled light.

[01:37:41] So those are,

[01:37:42] you have to,

[01:37:42] you have to like land,

[01:37:44] ask the questions,

[01:37:44] understand what the sort of like the,

[01:37:46] as the aesthetic and the culture is,

[01:37:47] and then find your moments.

[01:37:49] But if,

[01:37:50] you know,

[01:37:50] but you have to also respect that they've got their own process and their

[01:37:54] own sort of like,

[01:37:54] they've done their own tests and they've had things that have been

[01:37:57] approved.

[01:37:57] And they have a kind of a,

[01:37:59] a kind of a look that they'd like to lean into.

[01:38:01] And that also could be,

[01:38:02] that can be,

[01:38:03] sometimes that could be fun because you're wearing a different kind of

[01:38:06] suit.

[01:38:07] It can be fun to sort of like do something that's completely outside your

[01:38:10] aesthetic and to think in another way.

[01:38:12] Right.

[01:38:13] It could just,

[01:38:13] because it's,

[01:38:14] it just becomes like,

[01:38:15] Oh,

[01:38:15] I wouldn't have approached that.

[01:38:16] This is not my way of approaching this,

[01:38:18] but this is kind of interesting for me to,

[01:38:19] to approach it this way.

[01:38:20] And it's another way of thinking,

[01:38:22] you know,

[01:38:23] but another thing that comes up now is VFX,

[01:38:26] right?

[01:38:28] VFX controls so much now of what,

[01:38:31] of how you can cover things and how much movement you can include,

[01:38:34] include in those,

[01:38:35] especially if you're doing something that involves science fiction,

[01:38:37] it becomes this.

[01:38:39] And I,

[01:38:40] and I,

[01:38:40] and it,

[01:38:41] it ends up being like,

[01:38:43] if I'm looking at a,

[01:38:44] like a first time director's film,

[01:38:46] um,

[01:38:47] like Rose glass.

[01:38:49] Right.

[01:38:49] And she had like one,

[01:38:50] she had one V big VFX moment in her first,

[01:38:53] in her first movie,

[01:38:54] St.

[01:38:54] Maude.

[01:38:55] And I can see,

[01:38:57] she's a much more interesting director than this,

[01:38:58] but her shot that included VFX was the most boring shot in the movie because

[01:39:02] she had some VFX guy on her shoulder telling her,

[01:39:05] Oh,

[01:39:05] you've got to lock it off this way.

[01:39:07] And it's going to be,

[01:39:07] you got to do this.

[01:39:08] You have to do this.

[01:39:09] You have to light it a certain way.

[01:39:11] And that becomes a big influence on,

[01:39:13] on aesthetic,

[01:39:14] just in terms of like being able to sort of like hide wires or hide the

[01:39:18] background or where the green screen is going to go.

[01:39:20] And all that kind of thing becomes like,

[01:39:22] if you're watching all these,

[01:39:23] all these shows now that are shot with those big magic screens,

[01:39:27] like especially all those star Wars shows on Disney plus,

[01:39:29] they all end up being the same sort of setup.

[01:39:32] It's,

[01:39:33] it's a big master with a whole bunch of people standing,

[01:39:35] standing in a,

[01:39:36] in a room.

[01:39:37] That's about like 18 by 20,

[01:39:39] right.

[01:39:39] Making use of that big screen.

[01:39:41] And you just,

[01:39:42] it just,

[01:39:42] it completely,

[01:39:43] you know,

[01:39:44] um,

[01:39:44] takes over the aesthetic of,

[01:39:46] of,

[01:39:46] of the look and design of the show.

[01:39:48] Have you seen,

[01:39:48] um,

[01:39:49] Gareth Edwards is the creator.

[01:39:51] Cause I was really impressed by that.

[01:39:52] It was one of the first movies that recently came out.

[01:39:54] There's very VFX.

[01:39:55] He looked amazing.

[01:39:56] Also,

[01:39:57] wasn't that whole thing shot on the phone camera?

[01:40:01] Yeah.

[01:40:01] A DSLR because he didn't,

[01:40:03] because other films,

[01:40:05] other,

[01:40:05] other act,

[01:40:07] other creators who've made films,

[01:40:09] district nine is another one where they refuse to allow the VFX to take

[01:40:14] control of like,

[01:40:15] cause they just figured out,

[01:40:16] I mean,

[01:40:16] look,

[01:40:16] it takes a little bit longer obviously to,

[01:40:18] to,

[01:40:18] to,

[01:40:19] to fix all that stuff later.

[01:40:21] But you know,

[01:40:21] the same thing with the creator is it's like they,

[01:40:24] as long as they had the,

[01:40:24] they had the right sensor,

[01:40:26] right.

[01:40:27] That they could work with and get,

[01:40:28] and get a big,

[01:40:29] get a big enough 4k image,

[01:40:32] then you can just create in any way.

[01:40:33] Cause he wanted to work in real locations.

[01:40:36] And,

[01:40:36] and,

[01:40:37] and so he was out working in the Philippines and Southeast Asia and getting all

[01:40:40] these incredible looks where,

[01:40:42] where you'd have like this fantastic river with this,

[01:40:45] with a great city kind of like arching over it.

[01:40:47] And the scene was obviously added in later,

[01:40:49] but he wanted to use the combination of,

[01:40:51] of,

[01:40:51] of the reality of a place with a futuristic sort of architectural take to it.

[01:40:57] But you have to,

[01:40:58] but those are filmmakers.

[01:40:59] There's,

[01:40:59] I forget the name of the guy that directed district nine.

[01:41:01] They ignored the rules that are generally assigned to VF films that are VFX heavy.

[01:41:07] And they just shot handheld.

[01:41:09] And the guys just had to figure out a way to track it.

[01:41:11] And it just took longer to render all that stuff.

[01:41:13] And maybe it costs a little bit more money,

[01:41:14] but it made,

[01:41:15] it made for better filming.

[01:41:17] definitely.

[01:41:17] Definitely.

[01:41:18] Quick question.

[01:41:19] If we've got time,

[01:41:20] Nick,

[01:41:20] we usually ask most people this question is like,

[01:41:22] do you have any sort of memories of working in Baltimore?

[01:41:24] And also do you have any like food memories of Baltimore?

[01:41:27] Cause Baltimore was quite famous for crabs and things like that.

[01:41:30] And we've had all sorts of things from like gizzards to scrapple to other things.

[01:41:34] What kept you going on homicide food?

[01:41:37] Gosh.

[01:41:38] Uh,

[01:41:39] I,

[01:41:39] well,

[01:41:39] I smoked cigarettes in those days.

[01:41:40] So I think I was probably just like living on tobacco,

[01:41:42] but I remember there was,

[01:41:43] there was one,

[01:41:45] there was one,

[01:41:46] there was obviously the crabs,

[01:41:47] which were pretty interesting.

[01:41:49] Um,

[01:41:49] a little bit too,

[01:41:50] a little bit too much work.

[01:41:51] I like a simplicity in my meals.

[01:41:53] And then there was like the deep fried livers,

[01:41:55] which were kind of,

[01:41:56] which were kind of tasty.

[01:41:57] But Baltimore has a city unto itself.

[01:41:59] I think was a really interesting,

[01:42:01] cause it was sort of a mix of the South and the North.

[01:42:05] And the thing that was really sort of amazing,

[01:42:08] but also kind of shocking and disappointing about that city is a level of

[01:42:13] poverty.

[01:42:14] Deep,

[01:42:15] deep poverty that you really saw all around you all the time.

[01:42:18] Like as a New Yorker,

[01:42:20] you see,

[01:42:20] you see,

[01:42:21] you know,

[01:42:21] you see,

[01:42:21] you see the South Bronx and you see,

[01:42:23] Brooklyn,

[01:42:24] but I just remember like scouting or going,

[01:42:26] walking into an apartment,

[01:42:28] barely any furniture,

[01:42:29] like an armchair over here,

[01:42:31] a TV over there and a baby rattle in the middle of the floor and a,

[01:42:36] and a,

[01:42:36] and a,

[01:42:37] and a kitchen with dishes piled high.

[01:42:38] And you just like know the conditions of the people,

[01:42:41] that family that are living there.

[01:42:42] It's not going to be great.

[01:42:43] It's not a great story.

[01:42:45] And so,

[01:42:46] you know,

[01:42:46] Baltimore was also opened up to us and everybody,

[01:42:49] you know,

[01:42:50] you can really,

[01:42:50] everybody that you work with,

[01:42:52] all the locations that you went to,

[01:42:53] people loved having you there,

[01:42:54] but also there's a,

[01:42:55] there's another side of Baltimore.

[01:42:57] That's just a little bit sad,

[01:42:58] a little bit of a sad reflection of the state of our nation.

[01:43:02] Yeah.

[01:43:03] And there was that,

[01:43:03] the very tough,

[01:43:05] very tough,

[01:43:06] um,

[01:43:07] location.

[01:43:07] I think it was in son of a gun where they're still looking for,

[01:43:10] um,

[01:43:12] the Adina Watson murderer.

[01:43:14] And they go into that two or three story row house.

[01:43:16] It's just an unholy wreck with,

[01:43:20] you know,

[01:43:21] 15 people living in it.

[01:43:22] And as I'm watching it the other day,

[01:43:24] I'm thinking,

[01:43:24] yeah,

[01:43:25] that's probably not a lot of set dressing.

[01:43:27] None.

[01:43:27] That's probably a lot of,

[01:43:29] a found location,

[01:43:31] found location.

[01:43:32] Yeah.

[01:43:32] Good,

[01:43:33] John.

[01:43:33] Were you going to say something,

[01:43:34] John?

[01:43:34] Oh,

[01:43:34] no,

[01:43:35] it is that,

[01:43:35] uh,

[01:43:35] the city has its own,

[01:43:37] uh,

[01:43:38] visual charm,

[01:43:39] kind of charm city,

[01:43:40] of course.

[01:43:40] Uh,

[01:43:41] but that's,

[01:43:42] uh,

[01:43:42] not to be found anywhere else.

[01:43:44] Um,

[01:43:44] not,

[01:43:44] not in Philadelphia,

[01:43:46] not,

[01:43:46] not in Pittsburgh,

[01:43:47] that these tiny little row houses have such a,

[01:43:52] a specific look to them.

[01:43:54] And we filmed in these places,

[01:43:56] where the,

[01:43:57] the rooms are,

[01:43:57] are five by five.

[01:43:59] And,

[01:43:59] um,

[01:44:01] and we managed to,

[01:44:02] to shoot films.

[01:44:03] It was in,

[01:44:04] in very difficult situations and very,

[01:44:06] um,

[01:44:06] a rough neighborhood.

[01:44:08] And,

[01:44:11] I,

[01:44:11] I don't recall any incident.

[01:44:13] It was all,

[01:44:13] oh,

[01:44:14] there was that one time where suddenly we all had to get down on the ground and,

[01:44:18] and huddle behind the trucks because,

[01:44:21] uh,

[01:44:21] someone had been shooting out the window.

[01:44:23] Um,

[01:44:23] but that only happened occasionally.

[01:44:27] That was up on Druid Park Drive.

[01:44:29] Yeah.

[01:44:29] I think you were the one that cleared that up for me and said,

[01:44:32] uh,

[01:44:32] on our first episode,

[01:44:33] it was somebody testing their new gun and they were shooting it out toward the reservoir.

[01:44:36] exactly.

[01:44:37] He said,

[01:44:37] they were,

[01:44:38] they were all jumping,

[01:44:39] jumping behind cars.

[01:44:41] Oh,

[01:44:41] right,

[01:44:41] right,

[01:44:41] right,

[01:44:42] right.

[01:44:42] Yeah.

[01:44:43] So,

[01:44:43] so why do you think talking about,

[01:44:45] so why,

[01:44:46] why do you both think,

[01:44:47] and John,

[01:44:47] you probably answered this in the first episode,

[01:44:50] but,

[01:44:50] um,

[01:44:51] and I would say this about laws of gravity as well,

[01:44:54] that it has retained its relevance.

[01:44:57] It does not feel dated.

[01:44:59] Why do you think,

[01:45:00] why do you think that is?

[01:45:01] Well,

[01:45:02] for me,

[01:45:02] it's just because of people who are living their lives and they seem so perfectly natural and realistic.

[01:45:08] And,

[01:45:09] and,

[01:45:09] and I'm quite sure that this,

[01:45:10] this sort of scene still exists today,

[01:45:13] maybe with less smoking and maybe people are putting on their seatbelts when they're driving,

[01:45:17] but,

[01:45:18] um,

[01:45:19] get,

[01:45:20] uh,

[01:45:22] and besides the whole,

[01:45:23] uh,

[01:45:24] especially laws of gravity,

[01:45:26] the whole issue of,

[01:45:27] of,

[01:45:27] of trafficking in guns and bringing them up to the city and trying to make money off of guns and,

[01:45:33] and the extreme danger of the,

[01:45:36] of,

[01:45:37] of the consequences.

[01:45:38] So Nick,

[01:45:38] why do you think homicide,

[01:45:39] and like I said,

[01:45:41] I,

[01:45:41] I really think laws of gravity retains that relevance today and does not feel dated.

[01:45:45] Why do you think they both have that,

[01:45:48] those characteristics?

[01:45:49] It's,

[01:45:49] it's funny that you say that because when I look at laws of gravity,

[01:45:51] I feel like I'm looking at a woodcut,

[01:45:58] you know,

[01:45:59] because I just,

[01:45:59] because of the amount of grain,

[01:46:01] you know,

[01:46:02] um,

[01:46:03] uh,

[01:46:06] you know,

[01:46:07] if people appreciate the movie still for its,

[01:46:09] for its sort of,

[01:46:09] its,

[01:46:10] its,

[01:46:10] its energy and stuff,

[01:46:11] I,

[01:46:11] I appreciate that.

[01:46:12] Um,

[01:46:14] I think that,

[01:46:15] I think that,

[01:46:16] that homicide is,

[01:46:18] is so important now because the writing was so good.

[01:46:22] That's really where that,

[01:46:24] that's really where it stands out because it's not written by committee.

[01:46:28] It's not this kind of like this,

[01:46:30] these,

[01:46:31] this,

[01:46:31] this,

[01:46:31] this,

[01:46:33] these,

[01:46:34] the professionalism that comes along with being an executive and the notes

[01:46:40] that go back and forth constantly.

[01:46:42] You know,

[01:46:43] I've worked on shows where it really felt like the entire thing was written by

[01:46:46] committee and there's no singular vision.

[01:46:50] And with the guys who were writing for homicide,

[01:46:52] there was a lot of singular vision.

[01:46:54] And there was a lot of the,

[01:46:55] the voices were very,

[01:46:57] very strong.

[01:46:57] And whenever you have that,

[01:46:59] that's what makes,

[01:47:00] that's what makes art last.

[01:47:02] When,

[01:47:02] when,

[01:47:02] when there's voices that are strong,

[01:47:04] that stand out in the crowd,

[01:47:06] you know,

[01:47:06] it's the same thing with music.

[01:47:07] That's why music can be eternal.

[01:47:09] And what makes,

[01:47:09] what makes homicide last is that how smart,

[01:47:13] you know,

[01:47:14] the writing was and how great that cast was and how,

[01:47:17] how,

[01:47:17] how distinguished an individual,

[01:47:20] each cast member was from the other.

[01:47:23] Right.

[01:47:23] Absolutely.

[01:47:24] Now,

[01:47:25] sometimes everybody just kind of becomes like a blob sometimes.

[01:47:28] And,

[01:47:28] you know,

[01:47:28] you can't tell what,

[01:47:30] and the choices that they make aren't really based on their individual

[01:47:33] characters,

[01:47:33] but homicide has those real strong individual characters who are making

[01:47:39] individual choices and mistakes and they have their individual flaws and

[01:47:43] their strengths.

[01:47:44] And,

[01:47:46] and it also just like the new transfer on,

[01:47:49] on Peacock did John,

[01:47:50] did you have anything to do with the transfer of,

[01:47:52] it looks amazing.

[01:47:55] No,

[01:47:56] nothing at all.

[01:47:57] but I,

[01:47:57] I was absolutely thrilled with the way it looks.

[01:48:00] It looked better than when we actually had it on.

[01:48:03] Actually,

[01:48:03] I think I totally,

[01:48:04] I totally agree.

[01:48:06] Like you were talking about grain.

[01:48:08] Now you were talking about grain on laws of gravity.

[01:48:10] And I watched laws of gravity the other night and yes,

[01:48:13] it looked grainy and some of the lighting looks flat.

[01:48:15] And I'm thinking,

[01:48:16] well,

[01:48:16] we need to get this film down to the same people who re-transferred

[01:48:20] homicide.

[01:48:21] Cause this,

[01:48:22] this can look way,

[01:48:23] way better.

[01:48:24] Do the homicide restoration.

[01:48:25] I agree.

[01:48:27] That's funny.

[01:48:28] Yeah.

[01:48:28] Well,

[01:48:29] you know,

[01:48:33] it looks a little bit better.

[01:48:35] And there's commentary from the director who doesn't know what he's

[01:48:38] talking about,

[01:48:38] but he says a lot of good things and nice things about the DP.

[01:48:42] But yeah,

[01:48:43] I mean,

[01:48:43] I just,

[01:48:44] you know,

[01:48:44] it's,

[01:48:44] it's,

[01:48:45] it's interesting because like,

[01:48:46] I was just reading the other day that,

[01:48:47] that,

[01:48:47] that I forget the name of the company is that they're going to start

[01:48:50] selling,

[01:48:51] uh,

[01:48:51] or whatever,

[01:48:52] whatever they,

[01:48:53] um,

[01:48:53] yeah,

[01:48:54] selling,

[01:48:54] uh,

[01:48:54] homicide overseas to an,

[01:48:56] to an international audience,

[01:48:58] which is very exciting to think about.

[01:49:00] Right.

[01:49:01] It just,

[01:49:01] it's,

[01:49:02] it's just for,

[01:49:02] for,

[01:49:03] for a show that was like been silenced.

[01:49:05] Cause they,

[01:49:05] I guess they had a lot of issues with music because they replaced a lot of

[01:49:09] the music.

[01:49:11] Um,

[01:49:11] you know,

[01:49:12] God love the music supervisor,

[01:49:13] but some of the choices are not great.

[01:49:16] Obviously they had to go with what they could afford.

[01:49:19] Um,

[01:49:19] but music was so much,

[01:49:21] as John was saying before,

[01:49:21] music is such a big part of that show's experience.

[01:49:25] It's in the,

[01:49:25] and the needle drops that they,

[01:49:26] that they selected were kind of perfect,

[01:49:29] you know,

[01:49:30] and,

[01:49:30] uh,

[01:49:30] a lot of,

[01:49:31] I guess a lot of that stuff couldn't be,

[01:49:32] couldn't be tracked down or,

[01:49:33] or used or paid for or whatever.

[01:49:35] Yeah.

[01:49:36] Yeah.

[01:49:36] It's unfortunate because the music was,

[01:49:38] uh,

[01:49:38] really chosen of the time of the moment and,

[01:49:41] and fit,

[01:49:42] uh,

[01:49:43] so,

[01:49:43] so beautifully.

[01:49:44] Um,

[01:49:45] but,

[01:49:45] uh,

[01:49:45] yeah,

[01:49:46] you were talking about writing,

[01:49:47] uh,

[01:49:47] and on that show,

[01:49:50] each character,

[01:49:51] they wrote for each character in the character's voice.

[01:49:54] So on the most shows I work on,

[01:49:56] we can take the script and on set go,

[01:50:00] okay,

[01:50:00] you take this line,

[01:50:02] uh,

[01:50:02] and let's drop that line.

[01:50:04] And it's okay.

[01:50:05] Uh,

[01:50:05] do you mind if you switch lines with this one?

[01:50:07] And it makes no difference because,

[01:50:09] uh,

[01:50:09] the,

[01:50:09] the lines are,

[01:50:11] are,

[01:50:12] um,

[01:50:12] kind of anonymous.

[01:50:13] They're,

[01:50:13] they're,

[01:50:13] they're,

[01:50:14] um,

[01:50:15] interchangeable.

[01:50:15] You can,

[01:50:16] you can transpose them interchangeably and transpose them to anybody because,

[01:50:20] uh,

[01:50:20] nobody is written in a particular voice.

[01:50:23] Mm-hmm.

[01:50:23] And then interesting what you said,

[01:50:25] Nick,

[01:50:25] about obviously all the characters are unique,

[01:50:27] but then they paired,

[01:50:29] they partnered characters with each other that were 180 degrees opposite.

[01:50:33] So it immediately created tension and interest because they were two completely different personality types.

[01:50:42] Um,

[01:50:42] in every partnership,

[01:50:44] it was true.

[01:50:45] Well,

[01:50:45] that was,

[01:50:45] that's smart writing.

[01:50:46] Yeah.

[01:50:47] Great stuff.

[01:50:48] Yeah.

[01:50:49] But also what's interesting is they never create any artificial friction between these characters.

[01:50:53] They're just written as themselves and the friction is inherent to the scene.

[01:50:58] Like in most stuff I work on,

[01:50:59] they,

[01:50:59] they often bring in some,

[01:51:01] uh,

[01:51:02] artificial attention to create a drama within a scene.

[01:51:05] And the actor's like,

[01:51:06] I don't get it.

[01:51:07] Why do we,

[01:51:08] why are we having this conflict?

[01:51:09] There's no reason.

[01:51:10] We've never had a conflict before.

[01:51:12] So why is this written in here?

[01:51:14] That sounds,

[01:51:15] that sounds like a studio note.

[01:51:16] Interesting world.

[01:51:18] Conflict.

[01:51:19] Yes,

[01:51:20] yes,

[01:51:20] yes,

[01:51:21] yes.

[01:51:21] Conflict.

[01:51:22] Well,

[01:51:22] they love it.

[01:51:23] Right.

[01:51:24] So do either one of you guys want to mention anything you're working on now as we wrap up?

[01:51:29] Plug yourself.

[01:51:29] I,

[01:51:30] I'm not,

[01:51:31] uh,

[01:51:31] as,

[01:51:32] as talented as Nick.

[01:51:33] So I,

[01:51:34] I just try to stay involved and,

[01:51:37] and happy.

[01:51:38] And I,

[01:51:38] I enjoy working.

[01:51:39] And,

[01:51:40] uh,

[01:51:40] and right now I am,

[01:51:42] fully employed,

[01:51:43] uh,

[01:51:44] by the Dick Wolf world.

[01:51:45] Uh,

[01:51:45] they have so many shows and they,

[01:51:47] and I just go from one to the other.

[01:51:49] And I'm perfectly happy with that though.

[01:51:51] I wish,

[01:51:52] I'm sure Nick has a projects on,

[01:51:55] on the stove of his own.

[01:51:57] The project,

[01:51:58] you know,

[01:51:58] it's interesting because I'm trying to make the transition into lighter fare.

[01:52:01] Really?

[01:52:02] I'm trying to make the transition into comedy.

[01:52:04] Interesting.

[01:52:05] And,

[01:52:06] and science fiction.

[01:52:07] Cause I want,

[01:52:08] I just,

[01:52:08] because I just want to sort of change up the,

[01:52:12] the environments that I'm working with and the kind of challenges that I have to meet.

[01:52:16] So I've been sort of like finding myself liking and going up for things that are just a little bit lighter.

[01:52:23] Um,

[01:52:24] also because when you're doing comedy,

[01:52:25] it's a lot more fun.

[01:52:26] And some,

[01:52:26] and like Sean was saying before,

[01:52:29] it's great to show up and have a good time working with people.

[01:52:32] And it's,

[01:52:33] it's,

[01:52:33] it's lovely to sort of like when you,

[01:52:35] when you,

[01:52:35] when you're re,

[01:52:36] when you work with a group of people,

[01:52:38] again,

[01:52:38] a cast and crew again,

[01:52:39] and they like seeing you,

[01:52:41] they like having you there.

[01:52:42] Cause you know,

[01:52:43] they know you're going to,

[01:52:44] you're going to shake it up for them.

[01:52:45] And you,

[01:52:45] they know that you're going to have fun working with them.

[01:52:48] So that's kind of like where my mind has been lately trying to do stuff.

[01:52:51] It's a little bit lighter,

[01:52:53] you know,

[01:52:53] but I tried to do comedies and then people ask me,

[01:52:57] well,

[01:52:57] have you done any comedy?

[01:52:59] So no,

[01:53:00] I know how to laugh.

[01:53:03] I can do comedies,

[01:53:04] but they,

[01:53:05] they never let me.

[01:53:07] I,

[01:53:07] I worked on gossip girl.

[01:53:08] I thought it was a comedy.

[01:53:10] I was told,

[01:53:11] no,

[01:53:11] it's a drama.

[01:53:12] I even,

[01:53:13] I even submitted my gossip girl episode to the comedy,

[01:53:17] uh,

[01:53:18] a division,

[01:53:18] uh,

[01:53:19] category.

[01:53:20] And I got a very worried phone call saying,

[01:53:22] well,

[01:53:22] we're very sorry,

[01:53:23] John,

[01:53:24] but this,

[01:53:24] this is,

[01:53:25] this is not a comedy.

[01:53:26] It's a drama.

[01:53:27] Well,

[01:53:27] I was like,

[01:53:27] well,

[01:53:28] that's the first I've heard of it.

[01:53:29] I thought for sure it was,

[01:53:30] for me,

[01:53:31] it was hilarious from beginning to end.

[01:53:33] I thought for sure it was a comedy.

[01:53:35] My favorite show at the moment is the bear.

[01:53:37] And apparently there's a comedy.

[01:53:38] And I'm like,

[01:53:41] I mean,

[01:53:42] it is funny in places,

[01:53:43] but it doesn't strike me as a balls out comedy.

[01:53:46] I think,

[01:53:46] I think that was controversial during the Emmys this year.

[01:53:49] The people were saying,

[01:53:50] why was it up against other comedies?

[01:53:52] Yeah.

[01:53:53] Well,

[01:53:53] well,

[01:53:53] that's,

[01:53:53] that's also interesting what you're saying,

[01:53:55] because I,

[01:53:55] I agree with you.

[01:53:56] I,

[01:53:56] I see that as a,

[01:53:57] as an absolute drama,

[01:53:59] as a life and death thing to try to get a restaurant up and off the ground,

[01:54:02] except that happens to involve some people who are kind of amusing,

[01:54:05] who can be funny.

[01:54:06] And,

[01:54:06] and,

[01:54:07] and,

[01:54:07] and that was why I liked homicide so much,

[01:54:09] because it,

[01:54:10] it is a drama,

[01:54:11] of course,

[01:54:11] and there's some terrible things going on,

[01:54:13] except you got some really funny dialogue.

[01:54:17] You got Clark Johnson's in it.

[01:54:19] You got Richard Belzer,

[01:54:22] Ned Beatty,

[01:54:23] John Pulido.

[01:54:24] These are hilarious people.

[01:54:26] And they're doing a lot of very amusing things.

[01:54:31] done as drama,

[01:54:31] but still.

[01:54:32] Yeah.

[01:54:33] Yeah.

[01:54:33] I was watching homicide the other day and laughing a lot.

[01:54:36] My wife was like,

[01:54:37] what are you watching?

[01:54:37] Cause it was on my laptop.

[01:54:38] I was like,

[01:54:38] Oh,

[01:54:38] I'm watching homicide.

[01:54:40] That's not funny.

[01:54:41] It's like,

[01:54:41] it is.

[01:54:42] It's hilarious.

[01:54:43] It is.

[01:54:43] It's hilarious.

[01:54:44] So she thinks I'm a sick fuck now,

[01:54:46] but anyway,

[01:54:49] well,

[01:54:49] bells are,

[01:54:49] bells are always,

[01:54:50] you know,

[01:54:51] when I was,

[01:54:51] watching fire part two last night,

[01:54:53] I felt like I was watching a couple of different shows all at once.

[01:54:58] Because you would have,

[01:54:59] you would,

[01:55:00] you have,

[01:55:00] you know,

[01:55:00] the very sort of like heavy drama of this murder investigation,

[01:55:04] but then you have the sort of bells are wandering around giving,

[01:55:08] giving what's her name,

[01:55:09] a hard time about her detective exam that's coming up.

[01:55:12] And what would happen is you'd be on one movie and then somebody else would

[01:55:15] enter the room and we would then pan over to their,

[01:55:18] their,

[01:55:19] their,

[01:55:19] their performance and their moments.

[01:55:20] And then it would be kind of a different movie.

[01:55:22] And it would be kind of a Belzer movie.

[01:55:24] And then it would come over here.

[01:55:25] And then it would be kind of like a Yafakoto movie.

[01:55:26] And then you'd come over here and then it would be a murder investigation,

[01:55:29] but also,

[01:55:30] but all of it melded together quite seamlessly,

[01:55:33] which is the key thing.

[01:55:34] It wasn't,

[01:55:35] it never felt forced.

[01:55:36] And all you had to do was have someone walk through the door.

[01:55:39] The magic of someone walking through the door,

[01:55:41] and they had their own opinion about things,

[01:55:43] or they had something on their mind that had nothing to do with what you were just

[01:55:46] paying attention to.

[01:55:47] And then you're completely taken out of it.

[01:55:49] And it's,

[01:55:49] it's,

[01:55:50] it's like being on a radio station where you're just kind of like,

[01:55:52] Oh,

[01:55:52] it's jazz.

[01:55:53] Oh,

[01:55:53] it's rock.

[01:55:54] Oh,

[01:55:54] it's classical.

[01:55:55] And it,

[01:55:55] it just works beautifully.

[01:55:57] It was really just a nice thing to see.

[01:55:59] And you just don't,

[01:56:00] it's,

[01:56:00] it's a,

[01:56:00] that's a hard thing to achieve.

[01:56:02] And yeah.

[01:56:03] And the way that they sort of like consider,

[01:56:04] you know,

[01:56:05] comedies and dramas and how it gets broken down.

[01:56:07] It's like,

[01:56:08] it's,

[01:56:08] it's,

[01:56:08] it's also a cop show should be funny because cops are funny.

[01:56:11] They have to be funny people.

[01:56:13] They have to be sardonic and dark.

[01:56:15] God,

[01:56:16] yes.

[01:56:16] You know,

[01:56:16] there has to be,

[01:56:17] you know,

[01:56:18] if you go lots of black humor,

[01:56:19] lots of black humor,

[01:56:21] they see that they see the worst.

[01:56:22] How else are you going to survive?

[01:56:24] I remember when I first showed up on,

[01:56:26] on homicide,

[01:56:27] um,

[01:56:28] the,

[01:56:28] the technical advisor,

[01:56:29] I can't remember his name.

[01:56:30] Awesome guy.

[01:56:31] Gary D'Addario.

[01:56:32] You know,

[01:56:33] gave me a,

[01:56:33] a,

[01:56:34] a homicide detective,

[01:56:38] um,

[01:56:39] textbook.

[01:56:40] And it's a pumped it down in front of me.

[01:56:41] It's a,

[01:56:42] check this out.

[01:56:43] I'm like,

[01:56:43] Oh,

[01:56:43] okay.

[01:56:44] So I blithely am like turning the pages and it was the most horrible.

[01:56:49] And they must do this intentionally to sort of like to get all their little

[01:56:53] cadets used to it.

[01:56:54] The most horrible crime scene photographs that are still embedded in my mind.

[01:57:00] And I will never,

[01:57:01] I mean,

[01:57:02] it was really like,

[01:57:03] and they got,

[01:57:04] obviously got a big kick out of that,

[01:57:05] but it was really,

[01:57:06] it was,

[01:57:07] it was.

[01:57:07] And so,

[01:57:07] so if you're,

[01:57:08] if that's,

[01:57:09] if that's your mindset,

[01:57:10] if that's what you have to deal with every day,

[01:57:12] if you're walking into an apartment,

[01:57:13] that's got a deceased person in there,

[01:57:15] that's been in there for weeks,

[01:57:17] if you can't come,

[01:57:18] if you can't bounce back from that with a joke about what you've just

[01:57:23] witnessed or,

[01:57:24] or,

[01:57:25] or what you're going to have for lunch,

[01:57:26] then you're really in trouble,

[01:57:28] right?

[01:57:28] Then you're really going to be impacted psychologically in a deep,

[01:57:31] deep way.

[01:57:32] Not that you won't be,

[01:57:33] but you know,

[01:57:33] at least you can,

[01:57:34] humor can be the armor to protect you from that.

[01:57:38] Yeah.

[01:57:38] And it works,

[01:57:39] it works so well in the,

[01:57:41] in the show.

[01:57:42] And it speaks to what you talked about earlier,

[01:57:44] every character being unique.

[01:57:45] So that when it,

[01:57:46] when,

[01:57:47] when the scene shifts to a different character,

[01:57:49] it is a different take on the situation because everyone is unique.

[01:57:53] Yeah.

[01:57:53] I'd agree with that.

[01:57:54] Yeah.

[01:57:55] I had forgotten how charming and delightful Yafit is.

[01:57:59] He's often very,

[01:58:02] very amusing and,

[01:58:03] and taking on a certain official,

[01:58:06] a stance of the,

[01:58:10] throwing all his detectives off balance.

[01:58:12] It's very fun to watch.

[01:58:16] Yes.

[01:58:16] Yeah.

[01:58:16] Well,

[01:58:17] it was interesting.

[01:58:17] So Yafit Kodo was floating on air by the time I got there for fire.

[01:58:24] Part two,

[01:58:26] because Reed Diamond was a huge Yafit Kodo fan.

[01:58:31] Yes.

[01:58:32] Yes.

[01:58:32] And all he would do is talk to Yafit and say,

[01:58:35] Yafit,

[01:58:36] you were so great in this.

[01:58:37] And you were so great in that.

[01:58:38] I love you.

[01:58:39] Oh my God.

[01:58:39] You're my hero.

[01:58:40] I love you.

[01:58:41] And so by the time I'd walk on the set,

[01:58:42] Yafit was just floating on air because that's just what he wanted to hear.

[01:58:47] Finally,

[01:58:47] someone comes along and appreciating me for who I am in this world of actors,

[01:58:53] because I've got all these young kids running around.

[01:58:54] None of them appreciate me.

[01:58:55] And Reed is a real,

[01:58:56] you know,

[01:58:57] a real scholar in a,

[01:58:58] in a lot of ways about the history of movie and television.

[01:59:01] Yeah.

[01:59:01] Especially police stuff as well.

[01:59:03] Yeah.

[01:59:03] Yeah.

[01:59:04] Yeah.

[01:59:04] Yeah.

[01:59:04] And so he was just,

[01:59:05] so it was a gift for me that he put Yafit in such a great mood that Yafit

[01:59:10] was just like,

[01:59:11] just having the best time ever.

[01:59:13] It was really,

[01:59:13] it was,

[01:59:14] it was,

[01:59:14] it was a lot of fun.

[01:59:15] And that,

[01:59:15] when you got to season seven,

[01:59:16] I know we're running out of time.

[01:59:17] When we got to season seven,

[01:59:19] when you did La Familia with him and Gene Carlo,

[01:59:22] that was such a great opportunity for Yafit to have.

[01:59:26] And,

[01:59:27] and,

[01:59:27] and he has had in,

[01:59:28] in earlier seasons,

[01:59:31] emotional scenes,

[01:59:33] you know,

[01:59:33] sort of deep family issues and things where you got a better look at him.

[01:59:37] But that,

[01:59:39] that episode in particular was just really great to get a side of Yafit,

[01:59:44] especially with the son who we'd never seen until he comes into the unit.

[01:59:49] To do this emotional stuff with each other,

[01:59:51] this hard,

[01:59:52] like I,

[01:59:52] we haven't talked to each other forever.

[01:59:54] And now we were,

[01:59:55] we're making a bond.

[01:59:57] We're rebonding in,

[01:59:58] in a way we'd never,

[01:59:59] they had never had before.

[02:00:00] Yeah.

[02:00:01] That's interesting.

[02:00:02] Cause that was the opening episode of the season.

[02:00:03] Yes.

[02:00:04] Yes.

[02:00:05] And I,

[02:00:05] and I had never done any of those for Tom.

[02:00:08] And so my,

[02:00:09] my theory is like,

[02:00:10] all right,

[02:00:10] so the opening episode of season seven is going to be a Yafit episode.

[02:00:14] Who can I get?

[02:00:15] Oh yeah.

[02:00:15] Get Gomez.

[02:00:18] He can put up with Yafit stuff because this is a big Yafit.

[02:00:21] This is a big Yafit episode.

[02:00:23] But he was,

[02:00:24] he was genius.

[02:00:25] He was really,

[02:00:25] he really,

[02:00:26] he really brought it because,

[02:00:27] you know,

[02:00:28] Yafit can sometimes be,

[02:00:29] it depends on the day,

[02:00:31] right?

[02:00:32] Yafit is a planet of a human being.

[02:00:34] And sometimes you're on the dark side of the moon.

[02:00:37] And sometimes you're on the,

[02:00:37] on the bright side of the moon.

[02:00:38] So,

[02:00:39] but he was,

[02:00:40] he was great for that.

[02:00:40] It was,

[02:00:41] it was great.

[02:00:41] You know,

[02:00:42] Giancarlo,

[02:00:45] who I just knew from Spike Lee's movies,

[02:00:47] sort of really,

[02:00:48] really brought a richness and a flavor to,

[02:00:52] to the setting in general,

[02:00:54] which was really just kind of nice to have someone with so much deep

[02:00:59] character involvement to kind of parachute in into the middle of all of

[02:01:02] this and to bring a new kind of direction and purpose to the scene.

[02:01:08] So that stuff was great.

[02:01:09] Yeah.

[02:01:09] A good episode.

[02:01:10] And for Yafit to be so emotional and to,

[02:01:11] and to have these,

[02:01:12] to feel the kind of loss that he was,

[02:01:14] that he was,

[02:01:14] that he was experiencing and to feel like,

[02:01:16] like the connection with these families.

[02:01:18] It was nice.

[02:01:19] It was really nice.

[02:01:20] Great episode.

[02:01:21] Cool.

[02:01:21] Well,

[02:01:22] I think,

[02:01:22] I think we're pretty much hit it.

[02:01:25] Haven't we?

[02:01:25] Unless anybody's got any sort of final thoughts or anything before we wrap up

[02:01:28] today.

[02:01:29] Well,

[02:01:29] my final thought is,

[02:01:30] well,

[02:01:30] thank you guys so much for inviting us to this.

[02:01:33] This has been a really enjoyable chat.

[02:01:36] And it's just really nice to kind of like go back and remember,

[02:01:41] you know,

[02:01:42] these,

[02:01:42] you know,

[02:01:42] your memories are,

[02:01:43] you know,

[02:01:44] deep hidden,

[02:01:45] deep away in chest.

[02:01:45] So it's really nice to sort of like go into the,

[02:01:47] open that box and look at stuff and think about the relationships that you

[02:01:51] had and relationships and creative endeavors that you,

[02:01:55] years and years and years ago.

[02:01:57] It's just a great opportunity to sort of embrace all of that.

[02:02:00] So thank you so much for,

[02:02:01] for allowing that to happen.

[02:02:02] Thank you for allowing us to do that.

[02:02:04] And thank you for sharing all those memories.

[02:02:05] It's been great.

[02:02:06] Yeah.

[02:02:07] Thanks for coming on with this.

[02:02:08] And we thought it would be great to have you two together too.

[02:02:11] And I think that that was a good idea.

[02:02:13] I know,

[02:02:14] John.

[02:02:15] It's always lovely to see Nick.

[02:02:18] Very happy.

[02:02:20] To reconnect with Nick.

[02:02:23] To whom I owe this lovely apartment.

[02:02:31] Thank you,

[02:02:31] Nick.

[02:02:32] All right.

[02:02:33] Thanks you guys.

[02:02:34] Thank you.

[02:02:54] So that was Nick and John.

[02:02:56] I mean,

[02:02:56] what,

[02:02:56] what a chat that was.

[02:02:58] Certainly as a director,

[02:02:58] I feel like I learned quite a few things from that.

[02:03:00] And I think that was a real sort of celebration of,

[02:03:03] sort of independent filmmaking and that kind of independent spirit of filmmaking.

[02:03:07] And I think,

[02:03:07] I'm hoping that fans of Homicide will get a lot from that and understand more the kind of roots of where the look came from.

[02:03:17] And I was quite,

[02:03:19] I was quite tickled by Nick's comment that the whole idea of the film, Laws of Gravity, was based on this sort of gimmick that you could turn the film on in the middle of the night and think you're watching a documentary.

[02:03:30] And I found that quite amusing.

[02:03:32] I don't know if there's anything for you that sort of stood out there, but I thought it was a pretty cool point.

[02:03:36] Yeah.

[02:03:37] Well,

[02:03:37] I love,

[02:03:38] I love the whole idea that,

[02:03:40] that Laws of Gravity absolutely was the run and gun sort of attitude,

[02:03:44] which I think they tried to bring to Homicide and it got toned down a little bit in the second season.

[02:03:50] But the idea that they shot a film in 12 days, which does not seem haphazard and poorly done.

[02:04:01] It seems very well done and well put together.

[02:04:06] And I did make a mistake at some point.

[02:04:08] I said that Homicide was restricted to 12 days.

[02:04:12] What I meant was 12 hour days, not 12 days.

[02:04:16] That would be a luxury.

[02:04:17] I think seven day, I think we did, you know, seven day shoots.

[02:04:20] But, but anyway, the fact that, that, that the, that Laws of Gravity was shot under these constraints,

[02:04:28] you know, very low budget, 30, I think Nick said $30,000, 12 days, they were working very long hours,

[02:04:36] probably way more than 12 hour days.

[02:04:38] But then to come on to Homicide, where we also had restrictions,

[02:04:44] the show could absolutely not go over budget.

[02:04:47] The show could not go over 12 hours a day.

[02:04:51] So they, they had to work within those restrictions,

[02:04:54] even though it was a bigger budget and it was a bigger show and all those things.

[02:04:59] It was, it, I think they brought the feel of,

[02:05:02] and the joy of working in,

[02:05:04] in that aspect that they did with Laws of Gravity when they were together working on Homicide.

[02:05:11] And I think you can hear through the whole two hour conversation,

[02:05:14] and it is a two hour conversation,

[02:05:16] that their enthusiasm,

[02:05:19] their enthusiasm and their love for the work and their love for the creative spirit

[02:05:24] and their love for finding that spark of creativity,

[02:05:27] even when they went past Homicide into other more traditional film and television making,

[02:05:34] where Nick, I think said at one point,

[02:05:35] you know, you have to, sometimes there's,

[02:05:37] there's happy accidents that become cinematic moments that really make it fresh or raw,

[02:05:44] that, that they, they were able to take with them after leaving Homicide,

[02:05:48] even though they couldn't take a lot of those,

[02:05:51] those sort of fast moving handheld techniques didn't stick,

[02:05:56] because nobody does that anymore.

[02:05:58] No, no, not, not in that dancely way,

[02:06:01] Jean does it,

[02:06:01] because a lot of handheld,

[02:06:03] unfortunately today is sort of shaky camera.

[02:06:07] And, you know,

[02:06:08] that was,

[02:06:08] that was probably popularized by Paul Greengrass and,

[02:06:10] and in the success of the Bourne films.

[02:06:13] I think there's a slight lost art with handheld that,

[02:06:17] and I was,

[02:06:18] I was really tickled by Jean's teacher who,

[02:06:21] who basically equated tripod shots as the state,

[02:06:25] and then handheld shots were freedom and truth.

[02:06:28] And I found that quite funny.

[02:06:30] And that really made me laugh.

[02:06:32] And apparently Alex also had the same tutor.

[02:06:35] So he and Jean were coming from the,

[02:06:37] and Alex was the DP after Jean.

[02:06:38] They both kind of came from that same philosophical position

[02:06:41] and that sort of dancely quality to the handheld work.

[02:06:46] I was also fascinated by,

[02:06:48] as he probably comes across in the conversation about this,

[02:06:50] on this idea of the honesty and a continuous take and no cutting

[02:06:54] and no cutting to like,

[02:06:56] you know,

[02:06:56] over the shoulder shots and things like that.

[02:06:58] And I know what Nick means.

[02:06:59] There is something,

[02:06:59] especially when watching Laws of Gravity,

[02:07:02] it is fascinating just watching a shot play out for ages

[02:07:06] with no cuts in it.

[02:07:07] It does make it feel more authentic.

[02:07:09] And I know,

[02:07:10] I think there's some episodes of season two in Humicide

[02:07:13] where they experimented a little bit with that.

[02:07:15] Like there was a fight between Lewis

[02:07:18] and I can't remember who else it was in the bathroom

[02:07:20] when we're talking to Jean and his episode,

[02:07:23] where it plays out all in one take

[02:07:25] and he wouldn't know it.

[02:07:26] When you're watching it,

[02:07:27] you kind of like,

[02:07:27] you imagine there were cuts there,

[02:07:29] but in fact,

[02:07:29] when you watch it and concentrate,

[02:07:31] there are no cuts at all.

[02:07:32] It's all in one shot.

[02:07:33] And I think the producers

[02:07:36] didn't like the idea of the one take

[02:07:37] because sometimes they have to trim a scene

[02:07:39] to kind of cut it down for time

[02:07:41] or cut lines out.

[02:07:43] So unfortunately,

[02:07:44] the one take idea,

[02:07:45] it didn't kind of carry a crossover,

[02:07:47] Humicide for too long.

[02:07:49] But I was interested also by Nick's comment

[02:07:52] one shot covering everything

[02:07:54] in the scenes that he directs.

[02:07:56] I was looking at some of his other work

[02:07:57] and I can kind of see it,

[02:07:58] even though they do cut away to other shots,

[02:08:00] but you can kind of see how he uses that technique

[02:08:04] as much as he can.

[02:08:05] I think it's a very powerful technique

[02:08:07] when used correctly.

[02:08:08] I think it's really good.

[02:08:08] Yeah,

[02:08:09] I think that was,

[02:08:09] was that the Danny Baldwin

[02:08:11] and Clark fight in the bathroom?

[02:08:13] That's it.

[02:08:14] During the assisted suicide episode

[02:08:16] with Wilford Brimley.

[02:08:17] Yeah,

[02:08:18] that was,

[02:08:18] I think we talked about that

[02:08:19] in his episode

[02:08:20] where Jean was like,

[02:08:21] he said,

[02:08:22] I can't,

[02:08:22] I don't,

[02:08:23] he said,

[02:08:23] I looked at that

[02:08:23] and didn't even know

[02:08:24] how we did that

[02:08:25] because there were mirrors

[02:08:26] and everything working in that shot

[02:08:28] that worked really well.

[02:08:29] It was amazing.

[02:08:30] Yeah.

[02:08:30] And there were no marks either.

[02:08:31] So everybody did,

[02:08:32] everybody was on their A game

[02:08:33] in that moment.

[02:08:35] Yeah.

[02:08:35] The idea that they both

[02:08:38] tried to take that

[02:08:39] into their,

[02:08:39] into their other work

[02:08:40] where they try to get

[02:08:41] at least one master

[02:08:43] where,

[02:08:43] you know,

[02:08:44] they let the whole shot,

[02:08:46] the whole scene play out

[02:08:47] in one shot.

[02:08:48] They still try to do that

[02:08:50] when they can

[02:08:51] was interesting.

[02:08:52] And then their,

[02:08:53] their references to,

[02:08:54] I did go back

[02:08:54] and finally found

[02:08:57] Jean-Luc Godard's Breathless.

[02:08:59] I kept trying to find,

[02:09:00] watch Breathless

[02:09:01] on,

[02:09:02] on my streaming services

[02:09:03] and every time I hit

[02:09:04] the Jean-Luc Godard one,

[02:09:06] the,

[02:09:07] the Richard Gere one

[02:09:08] would come up,

[02:09:09] which I've already seen.

[02:09:10] Yes.

[02:09:10] Amazon made a mistake

[02:09:12] years ago with the posters

[02:09:13] and I think you can

[02:09:14] click on the one

[02:09:15] thinking it's a French one

[02:09:16] and it keeps coming up

[02:09:16] with the,

[02:09:17] yeah,

[02:09:17] the other one.

[02:09:18] Yeah.

[02:09:18] So I finally did get it on,

[02:09:21] I don't know if I had to read it or not.

[02:09:22] I finally did get

[02:09:22] the original

[02:09:23] Jean-Luc Godard's Breathless

[02:09:24] and what struck me

[02:09:25] about it

[02:09:27] was less so much

[02:09:28] the moving handheld camera work

[02:09:30] and more the jump cutting.

[02:09:31] The jump cutting

[02:09:32] is really prevalent in that.

[02:09:34] But,

[02:09:34] and I thought it was interesting

[02:09:35] that Jean said

[02:09:38] that it,

[02:09:38] it wasn't so much

[02:09:40] an artistic decision

[02:09:41] by Godard

[02:09:42] to,

[02:09:44] to do

[02:09:46] the jump cutting

[02:09:47] and the,

[02:09:48] the,

[02:09:48] the long takes

[02:09:49] but that

[02:09:49] Jean-Paul Belmondo

[02:09:51] wouldn't hit a mark

[02:09:52] if he tried

[02:09:54] so that they would just

[02:09:55] shoot it,

[02:09:55] whatever Jean-Paul Belmondo

[02:09:57] wanted to do,

[02:09:58] they would shoot it that way

[02:10:00] and then to hell

[02:10:01] with the continuity

[02:10:02] that,

[02:10:03] that that's what was

[02:10:04] the birth of the,

[02:10:04] of the jump cuts.

[02:10:05] Whether that's true or not,

[02:10:06] I don't know,

[02:10:07] but it,

[02:10:07] it seems that way

[02:10:08] when you watch the film

[02:10:09] and there are a lot of,

[02:10:10] there are a lot of scenes

[02:10:12] in that that play out

[02:10:13] with no cuts as well.

[02:10:15] but the scene where he's driving

[02:10:17] when he,

[02:10:18] he steals a car

[02:10:19] and he finds a gun

[02:10:20] in the glove compartment

[02:10:21] and he's sort of

[02:10:22] shooting out the window

[02:10:23] and,

[02:10:23] you know,

[02:10:23] pretending like he's a gangster

[02:10:25] and there's a lot of jump cuts

[02:10:26] in that

[02:10:27] and it really heightens

[02:10:28] the energy of the scene

[02:10:29] but it really,

[02:10:30] it,

[02:10:31] I really thought to myself

[02:10:32] as I was watching,

[02:10:33] I was like,

[02:10:33] oh,

[02:10:34] they must have really loved that

[02:10:35] and thought,

[02:10:36] why can't we try that

[02:10:38] with television

[02:10:39] when it had never

[02:10:40] really been done?

[02:10:41] And I mean,

[02:10:42] I get,

[02:10:42] you always say

[02:10:43] it's never been done before.

[02:10:44] Somebody probably did it

[02:10:46] but certainly not

[02:10:47] as a,

[02:10:47] as a rule

[02:10:48] for a technique

[02:10:49] of the way,

[02:10:50] you know,

[02:10:50] sort of the look,

[02:10:51] the look of a show.

[02:10:52] Yeah,

[02:10:52] yeah,

[02:10:53] it's quite jarring

[02:10:54] and to go into

[02:10:55] theatrical theory,

[02:10:56] I think it has its roots

[02:10:57] in Bertolt Brecht

[02:10:59] and this idea

[02:11:01] of if you expose

[02:11:02] the artifice

[02:11:03] of what you're watching,

[02:11:04] it supposedly makes you

[02:11:05] concentrate more

[02:11:06] on the content

[02:11:07] rather than getting

[02:11:09] sucked into it

[02:11:10] because if you watch

[02:11:10] a conventional show

[02:11:11] shot in a conventional way,

[02:11:13] it's almost hypnotic.

[02:11:14] You kind of get sucked in

[02:11:15] and it almost becomes,

[02:11:17] I don't know,

[02:11:18] subconscious,

[02:11:19] but it become,

[02:11:19] you know,

[02:11:20] you sort of only partly

[02:11:21] absorb the story

[02:11:22] whilst if you're jump-cutting

[02:11:23] all the time,

[02:11:24] it's always reminding you,

[02:11:25] I'm watching something fake here

[02:11:26] and I must be paying attention

[02:11:28] and that's the theory

[02:11:30] behind some of that,

[02:11:33] I think,

[02:11:33] in terms of the,

[02:11:35] the sort of,

[02:11:36] the Brechtian kind of theory.

[02:11:38] It was my best attempt

[02:11:39] to explain Brechtian theory.

[02:11:40] There you go,

[02:11:40] Brechtian theory.

[02:11:41] Uh-oh,

[02:11:42] we're getting in deep,

[02:11:43] we're getting deep.

[02:11:43] Haven't thought about that

[02:11:44] for a very long time.

[02:11:45] We're getting in deep there.

[02:11:46] I could be talking

[02:11:47] complete,

[02:11:48] complete balls,

[02:11:49] but,

[02:11:51] yeah.

[02:11:51] No,

[02:11:51] but I do remember

[02:11:52] in film school,

[02:11:54] the whole point

[02:11:54] when you learned editing

[02:11:56] and you got into

[02:11:56] the editing room

[02:11:57] with the Steenbeck

[02:11:58] was,

[02:12:00] was to make

[02:12:01] invisible cuts

[02:12:03] and the idea

[02:12:04] of an invisible cut

[02:12:05] is that you don't notice it

[02:12:07] and that you cut

[02:12:08] on the action.

[02:12:09] Like,

[02:12:09] if somebody's

[02:12:10] going to sit down,

[02:12:12] you don't cut,

[02:12:12] you don't show them sitting

[02:12:14] and then cut to them,

[02:12:15] you cut as they're sitting down

[02:12:17] so that the action

[02:12:19] covers

[02:12:20] the edit

[02:12:21] and,

[02:12:22] and it makes it feel invisible.

[02:12:23] So that,

[02:12:24] like you said,

[02:12:24] the artifice

[02:12:25] becomes invisible,

[02:12:26] the,

[02:12:27] the technique

[02:12:28] becomes invisible

[02:12:29] and you get sucked in.

[02:12:31] Whereas,

[02:12:31] like you said,

[02:12:32] this is

[02:12:33] an in-your-faced

[02:12:35] attempt

[02:12:35] to,

[02:12:37] for the technique

[02:12:38] to show you

[02:12:40] the artifice

[02:12:40] that this is,

[02:12:41] that,

[02:12:41] yeah,

[02:12:42] yeah,

[02:12:42] that's true

[02:12:43] and it's interesting,

[02:12:44] like,

[02:12:44] would that drive you away

[02:12:45] or suck you into the story?

[02:12:47] I don't know.

[02:12:48] I mean,

[02:12:48] you know,

[02:12:48] you talked,

[02:12:49] Depends on the viewer.

[02:12:50] Yeah,

[02:12:50] you talked about

[02:12:51] in one of the episodes

[02:12:52] and it probably was

[02:12:53] Three Men and Adina

[02:12:54] when they're in the box

[02:12:56] and they have

[02:12:57] all those horrible photos

[02:12:58] of Adina's murder

[02:12:59] up on the walls

[02:13:00] trying to convince

[02:13:01] Moses Gunn,

[02:13:01] the A-rabber,

[02:13:02] you know,

[02:13:02] to,

[02:13:03] to confess

[02:13:03] and there's a,

[02:13:04] I think it's a,

[02:13:05] at least a double

[02:13:06] if not a triple cut

[02:13:07] of Andre ripping,

[02:13:08] they give up

[02:13:09] and they rip the stuff

[02:13:10] off the walls.

[02:13:11] To me,

[02:13:12] the jarringness of it

[02:13:14] makes it

[02:13:15] more dramatic

[02:13:16] and,

[02:13:17] but not in a fake way,

[02:13:19] you know,

[02:13:19] it makes it,

[02:13:20] it drives home the point

[02:13:21] and also

[02:13:23] sucks you into the emotion,

[02:13:24] into his emotion,

[02:13:26] right?

[02:13:27] Right?

[02:13:27] And it's,

[02:13:28] it's so emotional,

[02:13:29] we're gonna,

[02:13:30] we're gonna slam you

[02:13:31] in the face with it

[02:13:32] three times,

[02:13:33] right?

[02:13:33] Well,

[02:13:33] it's that trademark thing,

[02:13:34] homicide,

[02:13:35] it's almost like

[02:13:36] a punctuation point.

[02:13:37] It's really,

[02:13:37] I love it

[02:13:38] and we were chatting

[02:13:40] with one of the editors

[02:13:41] over the reunion,

[02:13:42] weren't we?

[02:13:42] And apparently,

[02:13:44] originally they were

[02:13:45] spontaneously found

[02:13:46] and then over time

[02:13:47] they became planned out

[02:13:48] but I've always loved those

[02:13:50] and yeah,

[02:13:51] I always found out

[02:13:52] really interesting.

[02:13:53] Yeah,

[02:13:53] so everybody go watch

[02:13:54] Breathless if you can find it

[02:13:55] because that's also one of the,

[02:13:56] one of the origins

[02:13:58] of the look.

[02:13:59] Yeah,

[02:14:00] Breathless,

[02:14:00] no,

[02:14:00] it's a good film,

[02:14:01] I haven't seen it in years

[02:14:02] and there's,

[02:14:03] is it Raoul Coutillard

[02:14:04] I think was the DP,

[02:14:06] wasn't he?

[02:14:06] Because he was,

[02:14:07] I think they used

[02:14:08] art on cameras

[02:14:09] which is the kind of camera

[02:14:10] used in Homicide,

[02:14:10] the early versions of it.