S1 Ep2: Writing Homicide with Tom Fontana, Julie Martin, and Jorge Zamacona

[00:00:00] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award-winning television

[00:00:20] show Homicide Life on the Street, with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram.

[00:00:30] Today we have Tom Fontana, Julie Martin and Jorge Zamacona and we discuss what it took

[00:00:41] to create and write Homicide Life on the Street.

[00:00:59] Welcome everybody to Homicide Life on The Set with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram.

[00:01:05] Today we're joined by Tom Fontana, Julie Martin, Jorge Zamacona.

[00:01:09] Susan, can you just tell us a little bit about them?

[00:01:12] Yeah, so of course when we started talking about the podcast, we definitely wanted to talk

[00:01:16] to the co-creators, the writers and the producers.

[00:01:19] So I want to thank Tom Fontana, Julie Martin and George Zamacona for agreeing to talk

[00:01:24] with us about their experience on the show.

[00:01:26] They all worked together back in the mid-80s on the hospital drama St. Elsewhere, where

[00:01:31] Jorge was a PA and Julie was a researcher.

[00:01:35] So once they got to Homicide, once Tom, who was the showrunner, co-creator, writer, got

[00:01:41] to Homicide, he brought them one board and they all eventually, obviously Tom was a

[00:01:45] producer but they all also eventually, Julie and Jorge became producers.

[00:01:50] And obviously Tom still co-produces projects and produces other projects and still works

[00:01:57] through the Levin's and Fontana company.

[00:02:00] Barry Levin's center was sort of the impetus after purchasing the book of Homicide that

[00:02:08] got everything sort of rolling.

[00:02:09] So we're going to talk to them about their backgrounds, how they met, how they started

[00:02:13] working together, and their personal reflections of what was so special.

[00:02:18] Julie we talked to talks about how special this show was and they're going to give us

[00:02:23] some insight to that.

[00:02:25] Just before we begin a little note, this interview was recorded before the very sad and unfortunate

[00:02:31] news about Andre Brower passing away in December so we recorded this I think in late November

[00:02:36] this interview.

[00:02:38] And so obviously we were all talking and without the knowledge of what was going to happen

[00:02:42] to Andre and we obviously took about him in the sort of present tense and you know we're

[00:02:46] all very, very deeply sad about Andre's passing and obviously Susan you knew him and

[00:02:51] it must be I'm just an audience member.

[00:02:53] I didn't know him personally but I was devastated when I heard the news.

[00:02:58] In fact as the day he passed away I'd been rewatching Requiem for a Dino which you know

[00:03:05] I remember just I haven't watched an episode of Homicide since he's passed away because

[00:03:09] I just haven't been able to sort of do it to be honest.

[00:03:11] Yeah it was a gut punch for sure.

[00:03:15] I think less so with Yoffit and Richard not because they weren't obviously terrific people

[00:03:22] and terrific actors but they were older but obviously still gut punches for them too

[00:03:29] but Andre's being so young and also that I think his performances were so deeply emotional.

[00:03:42] I mean so to the bone he put everything out there and I think that the visceralness of

[00:03:53] those performances really connected with people and made his passing more people feel closer

[00:04:07] I guess and maybe more emotionally involved because you would get emotionally involved

[00:04:12] watching him because he was so good at getting to the heart of people's conflicted emotions

[00:04:19] about literally just about everything.

[00:04:22] Pendleton's just conflicted all over the place.

[00:04:26] Well yeah Pendleton and Bayless I mean I was a teenager when I first watched this show

[00:04:30] and I kind of grew up a little bit watching Pendleton and Bayless having it out you know

[00:04:35] debating life and death.

[00:04:38] You know the philosophy, religion and I think that was one of the appeals of this show

[00:04:45] is they were talking about real things that we all think about and it was so much passion

[00:04:52] with both of them and it just I remember when the show finished I was always keeping an

[00:04:59] eye out what Andre was up to because he was in a few films here and I was always trying

[00:05:03] to seek him out and then eventually he was in Brooklyn 9.9 and I'm very pleased that

[00:05:08] Captain Raymond Holt that character he played in many ways is probably more famous than his

[00:05:15] work on homicide but I'm just so glad that he got a role like that that really gave

[00:05:21] him the limelight that he was due and yeah I just you know I still haven't managed

[00:05:29] to watch Brooklyn 9.9 again since his passing either it's just the thought of it is

[00:05:33] just at this point just doesn't feel quite right but yeah.

[00:05:36] And he was I know of work with actors who were as intense off camera as they are on camera

[00:05:42] he was delightfully funny and kind person of course you know if anybody gets pissed off

[00:05:51] at something he might be pissed off at something but you know he was really funny and sweet

[00:05:57] and really liked I think I can't speak for him but I think he really enjoyed the show working

[00:06:04] on the show the way we all did although you know Tom did mention his and that's how the story

[00:06:09] arc changed did mention his feeling like I've done everything I can in the box how can I

[00:06:14] can't keep doing it over and over again because that sort of slashes away at the impact of

[00:06:19] it.

[00:06:20] And that's very hard for actors isn't it because it's like I never quite understand how

[00:06:25] when it's actually in the theater due to same show for like 30 weeks or something I don't

[00:06:30] know quite how they do it so to play Hamilton with all that passion in that same way yeah

[00:06:36] I could imagine he gets to a point where it feels like he's repeating himself and as a creative

[00:06:41] for many creatives that's probably an awful feeling really and it is very difficult

[00:06:45] for actors.

[00:06:46] And what an idea to say okay what are we going to do then to change that for him?

[00:06:55] And the idea of him having a stroke is just like what?

[00:07:01] And obviously for people who didn't see it know it was coming and to watch that it must

[00:07:07] have been shocking.

[00:07:09] It was I remember when I first saw because my grandfather had a stroke and died of it

[00:07:15] many years about three years after the fact and it left him in a very bad condition.

[00:07:21] So when Hamilton had a stroke it was like wow it was a real quite impactful moment really

[00:07:26] and I remember I haven't rewatched the episode in a while but I've vaguely remember him

[00:07:31] seeing a glass box or something is this sort of bit where he feels like he's looking on

[00:07:34] his life but he can't speak you know and he's sort of banging away and feeling very frustrated

[00:07:40] and you know you can lose the power speech through strokes and that's what happened to my

[00:07:44] grandfather.

[00:07:45] So I remember that it was yeah yeah it was quite shocking.

[00:07:50] He was shooting in a church once of which I didn't church is a lot.

[00:07:53] I think it was it might have been the white glove killer that was that was killing young

[00:07:57] women near churches.

[00:07:58] That's it yeah.

[00:07:59] And he would go in and was doing the very serious scene I believe with Kyle and then as

[00:08:05] he exited or I don't remember he was waiting in a hallway where I had all my equipment.

[00:08:09] There was a box of doughnuts next to it and he'd come out and he'd like play with the

[00:08:16] doughnuts and like make jokes at me with the doughnuts and then when he was when he heard

[00:08:20] his cue he put the doughnut down and go back in and do this very serious scene and then

[00:08:24] come back out and to be like very sort of funny and clownish.

[00:08:27] I'm upset and I was the only person there you know it was just like so that sort of shows

[00:08:33] you his personality.

[00:08:34] He just was he was a very funny guy he was a very funny guy.

[00:08:40] Yeah fantastic actor you know everything he's been in I've seen over the years that

[00:08:45] always loved Andre's performances and yeah very sad that he's no longer with us.

[00:08:50] Yeah that was a that was a toughy.

[00:08:53] Thank you for that Susan let's move into that interview with Tom Julie and Jorge and

[00:08:59] we'll be back right after this.

[00:09:15] First I just want to thank everybody for being here we were thinking maybe we catch

[00:09:19] everybody during the writer's strike when things weren't as busy and now I'm sure you're

[00:09:23] all back to work and very busy so thanks a lot for taking the time to do this.

[00:09:28] We were actually busy during the strike.

[00:09:31] Out on the picket line yes because we had somewhere to go.

[00:09:35] Yeah anyway yeah and I've walked a couple I've been through a couple strikes at 88 strike

[00:09:40] actually I got out of the business in LA because of the strike I was out at work for

[00:09:44] a year that year so I understand the situation.

[00:09:49] So how Chris and I got this started was Chris emailed me out of the blue he was developing

[00:09:55] or looking at developing a cop show in England and he's a huge homicide fan and he wanted

[00:10:01] to talk to somebody on the camera crew about how we shot it.

[00:10:05] So we first did a zoom and I talked to him about how we shot it and the kind of equipment

[00:10:10] we used and all the things that were invented that had never been done before because

[00:10:17] the show like that had never been done before.

[00:10:21] And I said he told him he had to talk to John.

[00:10:24] John was the cameraman John and Alex were the cameraman that I worked with.

[00:10:27] I was not on the first season with Wayne so he spoke to John and it's somewhere in that

[00:10:34] first conversation with Chris one of us said because Chris hasn't up and running very professional

[00:10:39] podcast one of us said wow we should do a podcast and at the time it did not register

[00:10:46] with me that this was a 30th anniversary of like holy crap like good timing on that but

[00:10:51] also it just I have to tell you I went through I had looked at seasons 5 through 7 and then

[00:10:57] when Tom sent me the DVDs I went back and watched one through 4 first of all to everyone

[00:11:02] you guys everyone it is still 30 years later it is still so good.

[00:11:09] And then I watched the very last thing I did after I watched all the documentaries and

[00:11:13] all the interviews.

[00:11:14] I watched the movie last night and I was crying my eyes out at the end because of course

[00:11:19] we lost Yofit and so the ending was so obviously originally poignant so much more poignant

[00:11:28] anyway just really beautifully done so hats off to everybody because it still is so

[00:11:35] good.

[00:11:36] And then I was really missing from the show is cell phones.

[00:11:41] It's really you know it's so current all the social issues are the same all the Baltimore

[00:11:46] issues are the same gender race all these things anyway so I'll stop babbling which proves

[00:11:52] how little effect the show had on anyone or how little things change in 30 years you know

[00:12:02] that's turning the shit well that's what I'm saying sadly sadly we have not progressed

[00:12:07] at all right so in doing the research before sitting down with you all obviously saw lots

[00:12:15] of familiar names in the same elsewhere credits and I think all three of you that's how

[00:12:21] that was how the first connection was made so Tom do you want to start with with what

[00:12:26] your pathway was the homicide and then Julian Jorge can jump in sure I had left Los Angeles

[00:12:36] and was back living in New York and happy as I could possibly be and not really all that

[00:12:43] concerned about doing another television series or just I was just like I'm just going

[00:12:49] to keep writing and I got a call from my agents UTA and they said Barry Levinson wants

[00:12:57] to meet with you about a series he's going to do for NBC and I said well okay but he's

[00:13:08] in Los Angeles shooting a film so you're going to have to fly to Los Angeles.

[00:13:13] So I flew to Los Angeles and Barry and I sat down and I realized in our conversation that

[00:13:23] he had never seen anything I had written and that I had seen very few things that he had

[00:13:30] done and so over the weekend I was on a Friday and then over the weekend I got delivered

[00:13:40] to my hotel, Diner, Avalon and Tinman and I watched them all and Avalon absolutely

[00:13:54] just destroyed me and I went back to the set on Monday and he said to me he goes I wanted

[00:14:05] to do this cop show and I said well there's never going to be a better cop show than Hillstreet

[00:14:09] Blues and he said well this one we will have no gun battles and no car chases and I said

[00:14:17] that's impossible okay I'm in I'll do it because it seemed it seemed impossible and a real

[00:14:26] challenge and that excited me. So that's how I got involved and then you know I was looking

[00:14:33] around for writers who were dumb enough to come on board and you're looking at two of them.

[00:14:43] But you knew you all knew each other from saying elsewhere correct yeah that cross paths there.

[00:14:49] Julie Julie was my assistant and Jorge was a PA so they were both very young and

[00:15:01] and then they both started writing scripts and writing was exceptional so but they can speak to that.

[00:15:10] Do you want to go ahead Jorge? Yeah go ahead yeah. Like Tom said I was the office PA and that's how we met

[00:15:17] and he mentored me there. I got into the guild to Sanos where by writing two scripts in season

[00:15:25] about I don't know two in three three and four. And then when the show ended I'd moved back east

[00:15:33] Tom was back east and he called me one summer day and asked me if I wanted to come down a

[00:15:39] Baltimore to meet him on the set and look at this show that he was doing and I drove down

[00:15:47] and was I believe unset for the pilot from first episode and met Paul Atenazio and met Barry

[00:15:54] and Tom and it was mesmerizing to be there and that's how I joined the show. I was privileged and

[00:16:01] grateful that Tom remembered me and and and included me and invited me to that party. It was one of

[00:16:08] the most amazing experiences of my career still made me the best one. We've had that a lot. Everybody

[00:16:14] I've talked to for this because we're looking at talking to as many departments as we can everybody

[00:16:20] has said that. So Julie, jump in on when you're connected. Yeah, I mean just just on a coincidental

[00:16:28] note, Jean de Cagonsack is currently directing an episode at SVU that I wrote.

[00:16:36] He was down here over the summer and I got to have dinner with him and his wife and daughter so

[00:16:41] it was really great to connect in person with him. Tell him how he's awesome.

[00:16:47] Yeah, so I mean I worked with obviously work with Tom you know through St.

[00:16:50] elsewhere and then through the Peltru Group where we started and started writing then

[00:16:56] and I think Tom will remember a funny story is like when he got the offer to do homicide

[00:17:01] I had simultaneously got an offer to work on LA law and I remember having a conversation with

[00:17:09] Tom because I think Homicide just got picked up for 13 or something right it was an initial

[00:17:13] series order and I said well I have an offer for 22. Actually Susie we were we were we were picked

[00:17:22] up for six oh six for a season. I was a pathetic pick up yes. I'm talking to Tom I want to work

[00:17:31] with you so much in the show so it's great I was a diner was one of my favorite movies of all time

[00:17:37] still is and I said but you know I'm sorry I'm being I'm going for the money

[00:17:46] I'm going for the 22 and Tom said I get it I understand. You came in on season three then correct

[00:17:53] so yeah I did two I did two seasons of LA law and then that then that show got cancelled and then

[00:17:59] Tom called and said my offer is still open which was awesome so but for less money

[00:18:09] that was it was great so I flew to Baltimore and the rest is history.

[00:18:16] And before I pass it over to Chris Jorge and Julie can you talk about what you know what was your

[00:18:23] reaction to a cop show with no with no guns and no car chases you know it's going to be

[00:18:30] really different and maybe that idea of looking at diner and avalan maybe gave you the idea that

[00:18:37] that you know behind this is the idea it's going to be about people it's going to be personal

[00:18:42] you know like like Barry's films are so what was that reaction to this is going to be a cop show

[00:18:48] that's almost not a cop show as a writer free good. And it was amazing because you get to write

[00:18:53] people you get to write the citrally the heart and soul and the foibles and the victories and losses

[00:18:59] of the characters without having to have a gun fight at the end of act two three and four.

[00:19:03] I still can't write action. Although I did I did work I did work a shotgun

[00:19:09] and two that one episode with Jeff Donovan but it was it was great I mean I love writing action

[00:19:16] like I'm I think I'm pretty good at it but it was great to be asked to write just the heart and soul

[00:19:23] of people and get into really what crime is and how it affects both the criminals and the cops

[00:19:29] who hunt them down was it was great. The idea that we came up with very quickly

[00:19:35] and a lot of this obviously was came from David Simon's book but that it what happens to

[00:19:46] a person if they go to their job and every day there's a dead body. I mean you know we writers go

[00:19:58] to our job there's a blank page we can pretty much survive that but how do you how do you

[00:20:03] survive day after day and especially God loved Baltimore but it was it was the worst time to be

[00:20:13] alive there because there were so many murders every single day. And what does that do to human being

[00:20:22] if that's your job and and so for I think for all of us that was the that was the heart of what we

[00:20:31] were trying to examine in each episode. Yeah it's the easiest I mean I find myself now every show

[00:20:40] that I work on is like if you can explain what the show is about in in five or fewer words and not

[00:20:50] every show is that but for homicide it was like we speak for the dead and that came from David

[00:20:56] Simon's book and it was like that is the touchstone for what that show was about what these guys

[00:21:02] are going to we speak for the dead and then it's like okay that's that's what we're writing about

[00:21:05] that's what we're yeah that's what we're doing. Yeah I've been rereading and it's funny I went to

[00:21:10] my shelf to find the book and I'm like where's the book I had to go buy a copy but in rereading

[00:21:17] it and then you know and looking at the publication date how the heck did you turn that book which

[00:21:23] is incredibly dense I mean he can be in the middle of talking about a murder and then give a

[00:21:31] background on one of the detectives from you know from the time he was a kid and how he ended up

[00:21:35] being the detective and then go back to the murder scene or back to the to the homicide unit.

[00:21:41] So how did you pull in two years and be on the air not just that you wrote it in two years

[00:21:50] but that you were on the air you know in 93 just two years after the book came out how did

[00:21:56] you sift through pull out figure out and then write these incredibly compelling stories that included

[00:22:06] the humanity of you know of of the detectives and these little conversations you know we're

[00:22:12] talking about the Lincoln assassination. I've said this to David Simon I've read that book

[00:22:21] more times than any other book in my entire life by the time we were done we had taken every single

[00:22:29] word out of it every comma every question mark but it we obviously there wasn't enough to do

[00:22:38] the full length of the series so we ended up you know everybody would hear about a crime story or

[00:22:49] have a sense of some character beat and and we would go for it you know the classic example is

[00:22:59] the subway episode that Jim Yoshimura wrote where he was watching taxi taxi cab confessions on HBO and

[00:23:13] he and and uh and uh somebody in the cab said something about uh boy frienders I don't remember

[00:23:22] the specifics of that story but they had fallen in between the platform and the and the subway

[00:23:28] and and died and Jim came in the next day he was very excited and said I want I think I should write

[00:23:37] this and so we were always looking we were always looking for uh you know as as Julia is still doing

[00:23:46] with Law and Order you you you go through the newspaper hoping for the worst possible murder

[00:23:53] uh it's the internet oh yeah well I still read the paper I'm sorry but anyway um uh the David

[00:24:03] David's book was an enormous inspiration to us and enormous source for us but once we really got

[00:24:10] rolling um and and had the actors inhabiting those characters which were slightly based on the

[00:24:19] characters in the book but of the other the real detectives in the book but pretty much we turned

[00:24:25] them into our own creations um and that's how we sustain the show for the life of the show

[00:24:33] I know writing process questions with other pain um but it'd be interesting to know a little bit about

[00:24:38] like what a sort of typical writing down homicide was were you guys um in a kind of like a writer's room

[00:24:45] bullpen um or were stories of independently written and then it was sort of um edited after the fact

[00:24:51] that he talked just a little about about the writing process well we didn't have a room we uh

[00:24:57] and the staff was very small at how to negate which I really love it was it was more conversations

[00:25:02] with Palmer between each other like I'm thinking of doing another sort about this I'm gonna pull

[00:25:06] this from the book is this makes sense and uh and Tom God bless them say right right give me an

[00:25:12] outline and so it was very freeing there was no um talking about writing instead of writing which

[00:25:18] I find happens a lot in writers rooms it you'd actually go right um and it was a freeing and amazing

[00:25:26] and an episode that I referenced before which I've done it was not in the book but it made sense

[00:25:32] to tell that story and I was permitted to do that and Julie would talk to me about stuff that she

[00:25:38] was thinking about doing the yash would come in and his and the hand me short stories and one

[00:25:43] liners and it was just so invigorating and great and um and had they took a little more form

[00:25:50] when when Henry remelded during the show Henry yeah we were kind of run agates the three of us at the time

[00:25:55] but there was still not the classic room environment I mean we all met like I think Tom we met at the

[00:26:01] beginning of the season we met as a group all of us and sort of talked about what we were thinking

[00:26:07] about what would be good ideas season or what the shape of the season would be um we met like once

[00:26:14] and then I think maybe in the middle of the season we met a second time but generally the day to

[00:26:18] day was again it was that you know it was yash and for a and i and that we were were we just like

[00:26:25] story editors yeah was what my favorite year of my career well we'd really like it was spent a

[00:26:31] while time together being a Baltimore was great because we spent all day better than all

[00:26:36] you know we go out to dinner together we spent incredible about a time so a lot of a lot of feedback

[00:26:42] a lot of discussion about what would make great story happen three of us and one of the most important

[00:26:48] things for me in terms of hiring writers was insisting that they live in Baltimore because um

[00:26:57] it woke us extraordinary about first of all because it was the first series ever shot in Baltimore

[00:27:04] but also to the the city on one hand is incredibly unique and on the other hand is typical America

[00:27:16] so I felt like everybody needed to eat the food walk the streets smell the smells and

[00:27:24] and not you know do phone it in from Los Angeles and um and that's you know and then it became like a

[00:27:33] little you know uh circle the wagons because they they uh all the writers had to like um deal with

[00:27:43] all the outside forces that were conspiring against us yeah it was a real incubator I knew we were

[00:27:49] just all together all the time in Baltimore I did it just sort of permeated our souls and our hearts

[00:27:57] and uh I don't I don't see any done any other way yeah it was kind of great also how we divided the

[00:28:03] responsibilities on set because I could get up at six right till 10 yash would cover a set for

[00:28:08] the first four are we we broke it up in the thirds Julie I think anyway and uh it was just quick

[00:28:14] because you're on set with the actors and feel of the energy of the story go back to your office

[00:28:18] and you're hammering and writing it so thought you're just immersed in the show yeah it's interesting

[00:28:23] and I think I didn't know you know I'm on the set immersed in in what I was doing and I knew

[00:28:27] you guys were there and you would come to the set there would be writers on the set every day

[00:28:31] I've worked on films where when the writer showed up you know the directors like get the hell out of

[00:28:36] here but that was not the case in in you know on the show and I don't think I knew I knew you guys

[00:28:42] were there but I thought oh they must have just flown in from New York I don't think I knew that

[00:28:46] you were really there most or all the time until I'm re watching all the episodes and the specificity

[00:28:56] of Baltimore and the environs I mean I would burst out laughing because there was some little tiny

[00:29:02] thing like I think this was in um in the last episode uh where Callie comes in and says oh I'm

[00:29:10] gonna go on vacation to can't koon and then um Garrity says I'm gonna go on vacation tomorrow uh

[00:29:17] to the Towson Mall and I just burst out laughing because he could have said at East Point Mall he

[00:29:23] said could have said Westview Mall he could have said whatever but Towson Mall is a destination you

[00:29:29] know it's a fancy mall so just the specificity of Towson Mall was was this really beautiful the

[00:29:37] details like that throughout the show we're kind of astounding actually and really drove home to me

[00:29:44] that yeah you guys lived it you didn't just write about it you lived it I was a Towson Mall every weekend

[00:29:53] one of the things I want to clarify is that uh you know on television the show runner is a writer

[00:30:01] and so there is never a moment where the writer is told get off the set there is more likely the

[00:30:10] director will be told to get off the set then there will be the writer yeah who needs them

[00:30:20] that foreigner that comes in for a week right the director right right that's so funny Tom what was

[00:30:26] a day in the life what was it like for you on homicide as the show runner you know what was this

[00:30:30] sort of typical day or week like could you give us a sort of picture of that well it kept uh it kept

[00:30:36] evolving over the years because like the first season um and the second season I think it was just

[00:30:43] Jim Yahshamura and I uh because Jorge you came in the when did you commit I came in after the

[00:30:50] four episode second season the after the Robin Williams yeah so it was it was uh Yahsh and I um

[00:30:59] and I mean we had done the six and then and Yahsh was still in Chicago but then he came

[00:31:06] um he came to live in Baltimore um and then we got 13 and then the second season we got four

[00:31:14] which uh that's a whole story I won't go into but um uh so I was there every day all day except that

[00:31:24] I would go come up to New York to edit because all the post was done up here um so I was on the

[00:31:33] the Amtrak and I got to be very close uh I knew every stop by the Amtrak and uh and then what happened

[00:31:43] was um uh third season Julie and Jorge came in and then I was starting to develop aaws

[00:31:53] so I brought Henry Bramellan to be the kind of sub sub show runner or and um

[00:32:02] and that he stayed for a year or how long did he stay I can't remember I think he stayed through

[00:32:09] the run um anyway so my uh being there changed um I will say this if there was a real problem

[00:32:19] I got on a train and was down there as fast as I could get uh because sometimes there were

[00:32:28] there were huge problems that they just needed uh they needed somebody who was the ultimate

[00:32:36] authority to say uh enough of this it was a good threat don't make us call Tom

[00:32:45] okay what like what like you mean example of a huge problem um I know it's really name names

[00:32:53] yes uh I know it's wrong to speak ill of the dead but Ned Bady uh I thought you were gonna say

[00:32:59] John Toledo okay Ned Bady yeah well no John Toledo is well but he wasn't or so round as long as Ned was

[00:33:08] um uh yeah no I mean I'm not gonna go into any specifics of what was the problems with either of them

[00:33:16] but they were major problems and uh if I stay yeah yeah I remember a jar of great poo pong flying across

[00:33:24] Duda's restaurant uh launched by Mr. Bady and uh all of us asked so clear the set at the top

[00:33:35] amazing I didn't show up in the show though everything looked great in the show right yeah

[00:33:40] the very first uh year the very second episode very directed the first episode and then he left

[00:33:48] and the actors suddenly realized that they had to deal with me and we had a wonderful director

[00:33:54] Martin Campbell directing the second episode and I was in the writer's office working and I got a

[00:34:01] call from the set saying um everything is shut down the actors aren't um uh uh are

[00:34:11] willing to take Martin's direction wow and I was like what you know and I come from the theater

[00:34:19] where you know you you listen to the director so I go over there and nobody is doing anything and

[00:34:26] I and I say to Mark what what's going on he said I don't know they just they don't want to do

[00:34:32] what I the blocking so I got up and I said all right here's the deal whoever I'm gonna go out

[00:34:40] into the hallway and whoever doesn't want to be in this scene come out in the hallway and tell me

[00:34:47] why and I will write you out of the scene right now I'll write you out of the scene right now

[00:34:54] and nobody said anything and I went out to the hallway I waited about 10 minutes nobody came out

[00:35:00] and that and from that point on that day every single actor said you know Tom it wasn't me

[00:35:05] it wasn't me and I would be like who the that's good if it was any that's great oh no they were as

[00:35:16] not as Julie said they were a feisty feisty yeah and a large group just going off on that just

[00:35:22] out of interest how were directors selected and what kind of briefing did they get about

[00:35:27] the show that kind of kept this consistency um very very specifically did not want television

[00:35:34] directors and so gale mutrix who was uh one of our producers uh she was extraordinary at finding

[00:35:46] people um who had either you know had film careers or were starting out uh people like Alan Taylor

[00:35:56] who was an NYU student uh had directed a short film she sat me his short film and said what do you

[00:36:03] think and we hired him so it was the first job he had in in television um she was amazing at finding people

[00:36:14] you know we had I'm gonna forget the name the guy who directed um uh

[00:36:20] you know post-it-no you know that that film about that now yeah anyway she just would

[00:36:26] she would come up with these names of people and it was always exciting um because they would

[00:36:32] bring they would bring their own uh you know the show was kind of and I'm sure John talked about

[00:36:42] this because it was all handheld and there was no perfect master and there was no it took all the

[00:36:49] feature directors about a day or two to understand that they had the freedom to do whatever they

[00:36:57] wanted to cross the line to shoot it upside down whatever they wanted and um and so we you know

[00:37:05] we had we had great luck I mean I don't know Julie or hey um when am I forgetting

[00:37:11] I don't I don't remember ever having to do which I've had to do in in my career a lot on

[00:37:18] on on or having to do reshoots right I mean it was just we never had to do reshoots we never we never

[00:37:24] we never said oh this was very rarely and there's a couple and I can't name names there were a

[00:37:29] couple directors are like okay this was maybe was a misfire but I I would say 90% of the time

[00:37:35] was like wow this is some this is a part of the uh a way to look at the show that we haven't seen before

[00:37:41] um so how how great is this process I mean you know some of them were pains in the asses but

[00:37:49] but generally the the process you know you would know more than I Susan being right right there with

[00:37:57] me no no reshoots and and and and no cover sets exactly you know we were out in the rain and the

[00:38:04] snow and the ice storms I mean there were there's no such thing as a cover set except maybe

[00:38:09] go back to the squad room if there was something available to shoot back there I remember

[00:38:14] that was John and Jim Fennerny would say we you know we're we're we're wrapping in two minutes

[00:38:21] and I said one and I was like I have a shot I need I have the shot this shot and I would be like

[00:38:26] we're done we're pulling the plug and John put that camera on his shoulder and like figured out how

[00:38:31] to do a one-page scene in a one or shot that literally took like 50 seconds exactly yeah

[00:38:42] John talked about that um he talked about not just uh and I wanted to actually piggyback a little

[00:38:49] bit off that idea of when you talked about um people not wanting to to uh act to Martin Campbell's

[00:38:56] blocking that at a certain point there was no block and the actors got to block through how they

[00:39:03] were motivated through the scene and then John you know would would dance around them but he also

[00:39:07] talked about how the actors got used to sort of flowing in and out as the camera moved you know

[00:39:13] and obviously it wasn't just a camera it was John it was boots it was uh it was um it was the

[00:39:20] the boom operator it was Josh you know with the Chinese lantern on a boom coming through and the actors

[00:39:28] pull you know pulling apart or stepping back letting the camera through and then coming back in

[00:39:33] um and being very willing to do that as the action was happening so it really was

[00:39:40] quite extraordinary having I had I came from a lot of features and very traditional TV

[00:39:46] before I was on homicide and it really was it incredibly unique in that aspect not just that

[00:39:53] the camera was doing what he was doing but that the actors worked around it as well

[00:39:59] I think that gave the show the the overall sense of the show was that it was you were watching

[00:40:06] reality you weren't watching television necessarily I think that's why it's so

[00:40:11] I'm jumping into another question but I think that's why it's so popular it's like it really felt

[00:40:15] like you were watching real cops do their job and I think that was a part of it that it was there

[00:40:20] was a lot of spontaneity to the movement yeah there was no master medium coverage over over it was

[00:40:27] just all over the place like you were there one of the things though that it really did was it kept

[00:40:33] the actors uh on their toes in the sense of because they never were quite sure if they were going to

[00:40:39] be on camera or not and so they all every time they were in a scene they couldn't sit back

[00:40:47] and and kind of go well I'm just feeding the lines now they were always in danger of being on camera

[00:40:55] and and the same thing with the lighting we weren't we you know berries levenson from the beginning

[00:41:01] said yeah let's just light it once and then shoot the scene and and and um and they didn't have to go

[00:41:11] and sit in their dressing room for an hour waiting for the for the lighting to switch over and

[00:41:17] I think it helped the I think it helped the actors enormously to be that out the moment

[00:41:25] um uh throughout the shooting mm-hmm yeah and having to stay and having to stay and involved with

[00:41:32] that with with the other characters not saying um are you done with my coverage i'm leaving and

[00:41:38] actually leave a care leave an actor hanging to do their lines against nobody or against an

[00:41:43] assistant director the show was much about sort of life as it was about investigating death and

[00:41:48] there's quite a few profound conversations the dialogue seems quite loaded in places and there's

[00:41:53] amazing bands or i love as well between the detectives at crime scenes have like munch in his conspiracy

[00:41:59] theories and is like this religious debate between Andre Brown and Carl T. Cool and I was wondering

[00:42:05] like how did those sort of conversations um kind of come about with the dialogue and things was

[00:42:10] there a kind of philosophy behind a lot of this I would say um it was it would come from the

[00:42:16] individual writer mm-hmm but everyone knew that the show had to have humor because without the

[00:42:23] humor it would have been relentless on the other hand uh everybody had an opportunity because as I

[00:42:30] said we were investigating the effect of this job on this group of people that everybody had

[00:42:39] an opportunity for that specific case to motivate a conversation between the two detectives involved

[00:42:50] one of my favorite moments was and I can't remember what season it was four or five or whatever

[00:42:58] was they were uh a bailess and pembleton were called to a house and uh by a rookie rookie cop

[00:43:07] because a woman had died and when they got to the room she had died

[00:43:15] natural causes and she was at peace and she was just lying on her bed at peace

[00:43:23] and it was so hard for pembleton and bailess to to to to compute that because

[00:43:32] we had never seen on the show a natural death and that was one of the things you couldn't do until

[00:43:38] the fourth or fifth season you know what I'm saying if we did done it in the second episode

[00:43:43] you'd be like out so what but having having seen these two specifically these two detectives

[00:43:51] and their philosophies of life and the and the effect of that on them uh it was kind of to me it

[00:43:58] was a very special moment I remember breaking that story with you Tom because we there was

[00:44:03] there were the the the a story was an incredibly brutal murder which I don't remember the details

[00:44:09] of whatever it was and we and we were talking about it we were saying this is so dark and this is

[00:44:14] so brutal and so horrific what would be a counterpoint to that and we came up with yeah what if it's

[00:44:20] someone that's dead and it's just peaceful in your sleep just sort of temper whatever the horrific

[00:44:29] story was that I actually don't even remember not what the other story was yeah they had a hard

[00:44:34] time figuring out what to do at the scene like is this really not a murder why is it not a murder

[00:44:38] yeah that was that was really interesting yeah yeah I remember there's a scene is a great scene in

[00:44:44] the episode Crescesty which I really like where it's panels on a bailess have gone to buy some kind of

[00:44:52] sort of Italian snack for the the wake the cookies that hold yeah that's it that whole sequence

[00:44:58] is just brilliant from the parking to getting in is fantastic yeah tomorrow was finest was a pinolis

[00:45:04] is that what they were going to get I'm sorry was a pinolis when they go up to love a caros

[00:45:09] that's right that's right that's another super specific Baltimore yeah but it was very very

[00:45:16] y'all tomorrow that whole sequence yeah because it was funny but at the same time it was a bit profound

[00:45:22] by the time they got to the other side it was very profound yeah it was brilliant yeah it was

[00:45:27] interesting jumping off that um I think it was Utah and I mentioned in one of the uh the

[00:45:33] interviews on um you know one of the season end of season interviews and in the DVD pack

[00:45:39] um and you talked about the idea of um it's okay to get uber specific the specificity

[00:45:48] becomes universal I thought that was really interesting point like people like let's say

[00:45:54] you know let's say you live in Chicago well I guess there's pinolis everywhere but let's say

[00:45:58] you know you live in Chicago and maybe there's not of a caros down the street and you don't know

[00:46:03] about the famous pinolis in Baltimore but but there's something else in Chicago that's very

[00:46:10] specific to Chicago can you talk a little bit about that that idea of the specificity making it

[00:46:16] more embraceable maybe you know yeah well one of the things uh there was a there was a scene with um

[00:46:24] with Andre and Danny Baldwin in a car driving two with crime scene or from the crime scene

[00:46:32] and they were talking about they were he's uh browner says make a right on martin muther king boulevard

[00:46:42] and and Danny Baldwin's going freemont it's freemont and they get into a thing about

[00:46:49] it because it used to be called freemont and now it was being called martin muther king

[00:46:55] and in my mind that happened in every city in america every city in america decided to name a

[00:47:05] street after dr king and you'd have this you know the white guy who's like doesn't want to give

[00:47:13] it up and you have the black guy who's like no it's it's martin muther king so it was things like that

[00:47:19] that we tried to find you know and the cookies is another example yes we don't all have

[00:47:24] picaros but every every town has an Italian bakery that you go oh you got to go there it's that's

[00:47:32] where you get the good stuff so the name itself meant something to people in Baltimore but the name

[00:47:40] being Italian meant oh okay I know what they're talking about in terms of the cookie

[00:47:46] I was watching some of the crossover episodes last night so Jorge you were writing and

[00:47:52] producing for both law and order and homicide at the same time um those are it's interesting you

[00:48:00] know you watch 120 episodes of homicide and you switch over to watch law and order and you think

[00:48:06] oh it's going to be sort of similar it's like so not similar how did you do that how how are those

[00:48:15] how are those two shows melded but also you were you were watching from both sides of the coin on

[00:48:21] that how was that experience as a producer and writer and both uh it was it was great both

[00:48:26] I wrote two of the crossovers it was great in that um it was an eye opener because I wrote

[00:48:34] the law and order half um first because I because they handed it off to us in the second hour um

[00:48:41] I thought I had to LA to get my notes and what I had with the mistake I had done as I had written

[00:48:46] law and order like law and order it was I I filled it all the character and and and

[00:48:53] and softer moments and and and and Renéville Sarah uh and I had lunch at the universal on the line he

[00:49:00] said this is a great homicide episode that you're calling law and order I said oh do it I'm sorry

[00:49:04] so I had to go back and sort of retool it and listen to law and order a little bit more specifically

[00:49:09] about how they how about they just the facts man um at that at that point and then when coming

[00:49:16] back into our half our our um was great because it was a silo McShift dramatically in the writing

[00:49:22] because it's not this is homicides is how they're going to take how we're going to handle this

[00:49:27] crime that's spread down from New York um and I believe Ed sharing yeah directed the first crossover

[00:49:33] and he was making it he was magnificent to work with um and uh and he loved coming down to Baltimore

[00:49:40] and freeing up the style of how that second hour uh was affected also I remember uh Jerry Orbok

[00:49:48] who was a friend of mine um he loved coming down because uh he would be like um

[00:49:56] the we we wrote off thing because because Jerry was a fantastic pool player and we wrote a scene

[00:50:04] with Hay and Bells are playing pool and I said to the director this is the first and only time

[00:50:09] in your career where you're going to be able to shoot the actor a playing pool and he's going

[00:50:17] to get the ball in the and you won't have to go to a close-up of the pocket with the ball rolling in

[00:50:23] he you could do a nice long shot and the this guy's going to get that ball in and and and I

[00:50:30] remember Jerry was like I can't believe I'm getting to play pool

[00:50:37] so they I think the actors and our actors look oh the other funny thing that happened I don't

[00:50:42] know if you remember this but Jill Hennessy we needed her in Baltimore and they needed her

[00:50:49] in New York but that scene they needed her for in New York was her sitting in the courtroom

[00:50:56] she didn't have any dialogue but she had to be sitting next to Sam and but we really needed her

[00:51:03] in in Baltimore because she had you know a dialogue and Jill has a twin sister and the twin sister

[00:51:12] actually was the stand-in in the law and order part of it and Jill came down to New York and I

[00:51:20] was like okay is that kids met or what how many actresses do I know who have twin sisters

[00:51:27] perfect for a crossover episode yeah and it's so true about Jerry playing Jerry Orbok playing

[00:51:34] pool because as you watch that scene you I mean I noticed right away having been on other sets where

[00:51:41] it was always the cutaway to the ball going in the pocket and I was like wait he actually made that

[00:51:46] shot and then it was the next shot wait yeah wait he made that shot yeah that was good so funny

[00:51:53] and we borrowed from that playbook whenever the episode was that we were trying to cast Melissa

[00:51:58] Leo's sister right right do you remember that and we ended up on well Melissa Leo can play her own

[00:52:05] sister yeah with the wig episode yeah yeah she looks so different in that episode out of

[00:52:16] interest um did you with the writing process and creating the characters did you have to cater quite

[00:52:21] a bit for the actors personalities and the idiosyncrasies and things like that one of the things I

[00:52:26] love about doing episodic television is when you start a series uh the writers know everything

[00:52:34] about the characters and the actors know nothing and really good actors very quickly

[00:52:42] know more than the writers know about the characters eventually all the actors catch up to it but

[00:52:50] but the the really good ones pretty quickly and so you find yourself instead of them coming to you

[00:52:57] and saying you know in this scene what's my motivation or any of that you find yourself going to them

[00:53:05] going um hey how about if you know and they they have a real sense of whether whether that works for

[00:53:13] their character or not it's like when I said to Andre uh how about if I give Pebbleton a stroke

[00:53:20] mm and he just jumped on it because he just thought well that's gonna be a challenge of for me to play

[00:53:28] uh after all these years of playing this smartest guy in the room it led it led to a lot of arguments

[00:53:35] on set as the downside of it was great it was very collaborative but I could remember being an actor saying

[00:53:41] like my character wouldn't say that I was like yes he worked because I wrote the top eight now interesting

[00:53:47] like the stroke story arc Julie you had a little bit or maybe more than a little bit of a medical

[00:53:54] background did you ever have input on no that wouldn't be that way for medical things I don't know

[00:54:00] it just occurred to me when I saw that well I mean the only medical but my medical background is

[00:54:06] doing a lot of research on say elsewhere so I never you know I had medical background for me research

[00:54:17] I had a legal background from doing a lot of research on on LA law so yeah all the all that informed

[00:54:25] you know coming into the show like because you know it comes from you want to be realistic and

[00:54:30] I forget did we have a tech advisor then yeah yeah and also Andre being being the wonderfully

[00:54:38] obsessive actor that he has did a lot of personal research um so again it was great to get him to tell

[00:54:46] us where that character would be at some point in the season yeah I remember a discussion on the set

[00:54:56] that Melissa would and I don't I don't think it was the scene I don't think it was the junior

[00:55:04] bunk shootout scene it might have been but she wanted to put her gun in the locker

[00:55:10] and I don't remember who was directing that I remember who was directing that episode it's like no

[00:55:15] take it to your desk and she's like no my character would not do that the gun goes in the locker when

[00:55:22] I come in yeah she taught me a lot about television writing and my subsequent jobs because she all her

[00:55:29] questions were always like where is my character coming from and where is my character going after

[00:55:38] which is which is interesting like wow sometimes when you're writing you're just you start to see where

[00:55:43] you want to start the scene and it was it was such a great you know she was you know she we love her

[00:55:52] she could have a lot of questions that you didn't necessarily want to answer but

[00:55:55] so for sure she'd be honest about yes the the scene doesn't just start when she when

[00:56:01] when she arrives it's like where was she before it makes you really it helped the writing I think

[00:56:06] her her insistence on knowing where she was coming from or she was going I do remember that's

[00:56:12] that so what do I do with my gun I could spell it off you know the episodes you know were the

[00:56:21] awards were won from things like that obviously three men in adina you know Tom gets an Emmy but

[00:56:28] I'm also curious about if you had favorite episodes maybe that weren't award winning or favorite

[00:56:34] episodes other writers wrote and I also curious Julie for you following up with Requiem for Adina

[00:56:42] the the you know the groundbreaking three men in adina to have to follow up and writer script about

[00:56:47] that and then also you all collaborated I think Jorge you and Julie wrote the city that bleeds together

[00:56:54] so if you could just sort of talk about standout episodes for you personally or that you thought

[00:57:01] were standout episodes that other writers wrote well I'm going to do the diplomatic thing and say

[00:57:07] I loved every single episode equally and that way I will not be stepping in it so take it away

[00:57:16] Julie and Jorge a politician at heart I think we could all agree that the subway is subway was an

[00:57:23] outstanding episode and honor to Yashimura who's not here and doll's eyes was another Yashimura

[00:57:31] episode that was really dolls eyes was stunning three men in adina was stunning and I kind of a

[00:57:39] Tom with Switzerland position that I really did love every episode I particularly like a couple

[00:57:47] of times I'm quick maybe wrong guys but didn't we write the end of the season twice because we hadn't

[00:57:52] gotten the back nine we've done the 13 there was this sort of a doubt so we we we'd collaborate

[00:57:59] all of us writing an episode that was the 13th and like they might be it and then well we got

[00:58:04] the nine so that we had to sort of top spin our soft ending that we wrote it was it was it amazing

[00:58:12] and I did I mean just to touch to your point is I did I did I know three Requiem for a Dean as a

[00:58:20] special place at my part because from a storytelling point of view to honor the real case right Tom

[00:58:28] we never we never wanted to say conclusively who who was the killer in that in that case we never

[00:58:35] wanted to say that but I had a very uh closer relationship with Kyle Seacore and I wanted him his

[00:58:44] character to have some kind of closure and peace with that story even even if we never solved it

[00:58:52] it was you know we never solved it on the show um so that episode was allowed me us to do that and say

[00:58:59] anybody put I think he put the picture of a Dean of Watson that was on his desk in the drawer and

[00:59:04] so for his character to come to some kind of acceptance that he was never going to solve it but

[00:59:09] able to move on so that just wasn't hanging over him for I mean at that point we didn't know how long

[00:59:14] the series was gonna go but um so that was that was for me it is a special moment and that and that case

[00:59:21] and that case here still not solved I don't think that that was Tanya Wallace I think that I don't

[00:59:26] think that's ever been solved here even today no no interesting to um can you talk a little bit about

[00:59:34] the idea of having a cohesive arc through multiple episodes uh you don't see that often in episodic

[00:59:41] television a lot of things they just get here's the story wrapped up here's the story wrapped up here's

[00:59:45] the story wrapped up I saw that effectively done in a British show called Happy Valley where there

[00:59:50] was a background arc um and it wasn't just referenced it was really that arc was going on through

[00:59:56] the whole season um very poignant and scary kind of arc obviously you had to do that with the

[01:00:02] Luther Mahoney arc is that was that difficult to write here's the episode we're gonna close up

[01:00:09] these three murders but we still got Luther hanging out there we've still got the bad shooting

[01:00:14] you know with Kalerman hanging out there that was also obviously the connected arc after

[01:00:19] Luther gets killed then it's then it's the rest of the arc with you know how do we deal with

[01:00:24] Kalerman and the fact that it's a bad shooting and who's gonna know about it and who's gonna

[01:00:28] spill the beans how did you do that I mean it seems very complicated it it really wasn't all

[01:00:34] that complicated in the sense of that we what we if you'll notice that we we kind of

[01:00:41] spaced the Luther Mahoney episodes out so it wasn't like there were five episodes with

[01:00:49] Luther Mahoney in a row because we wanted him to be a presence in the in their lives even when he

[01:00:55] wasn't in an episode um and then it was just well can we go back to that that particular

[01:01:03] character now and what what how do we advance it um uh you know what what new what are we

[01:01:10] gonna find out that's that's gonna evolve the story toward the ultimate outcome where

[01:01:17] Kalerman kills him I'm speaking for myself but maybe you guys found it more difficult than I did

[01:01:23] I don't I don't know I didn't I just felt felt kind of natural the way we sort of spaced it out

[01:01:29] it was sort of instinctive I think yeah um the team yeah I think it also helped that we had for

[01:01:35] the most part we had the same writer writing stuff so it was sort of like it was your it was our

[01:01:40] lived experience of all these different storylines um so yeah felt last time he said it felt very natural

[01:01:49] to say oh it's like it was like we were living our lives through writing homicide like we remembered

[01:01:57] every step of the way because we were all together um so it just it became like telling yeah

[01:02:04] you're shared you're shared experience and so I was like oh remember that guy or that guy or

[01:02:07] or you know I and as real life people come and go in your life so I will add one thing uh that is

[01:02:15] sort of what you're asking about but in a sort of macro way is that um from the very beginning

[01:02:24] of the series I had a conversation with Barry because Andrei's character was so this way and

[01:02:34] Isle's character was so that way one was a hard he had been doing this a long long time and he knew

[01:02:41] how to do it and he all he wanted was to get the bad guy and then you had Kyle's character the

[01:02:48] new guy who was like well what about the Miranda rights and what about this and that and the

[01:02:54] conversation that Barry and I had fairly early on um was over the course of time they would trade

[01:03:04] trade personalities in the sense of Pendleton did never wanted to go back in the box ever again

[01:03:14] and and and and Bayless actually ends up killing somebody so um the tricky part of doing that arc

[01:03:26] was that we didn't know if we were doing six episodes 13 episodes 26 episodes um so we had to keep

[01:03:34] we had to keep maneuvering it uh throughout the series and then you got to drive at home in the movie

[01:03:40] yeah and the movie exactly yeah yeah that that was that scene on the roof with the two of them

[01:03:47] uh in the movie it was just painful really painful to watch how did the out of interest how did the

[01:03:56] movies sort of come about because it was a nice sort of book end to the show um I'm really intrigued by

[01:04:01] the when we were what we we sort of knew we were going to be cancelled but again it was always never

[01:04:08] 100% and and then we were cancelled and I was having dinner with uh Rod's Weinman who was the

[01:04:18] uh head of broadcast standards at NBC and um Garth Ann Seer who was then the president of NBC

[01:04:27] and I said you know I really feel like we haven't finished this and and and he said well what about

[01:04:37] you doing a uh a TV movie and I was like great the problem is that everybody was had other jobs so

[01:04:47] I had I had to get I mean Yashimura thank god it was available and uh Eric Overmeyer so basically the three

[01:04:56] of us cobbled together and the one thing we wanted to do was to get every single actor who'd been on

[01:05:02] the show in the movie yeah even if they were dead um so uh the scheduling the shooting was a

[01:05:13] feat unto itself thank god bless Jim Finnerty for that but um but every single actor who'd ever

[01:05:20] been a regular on the show was in the movie for at one point or another and uh uh and and I really

[01:05:29] feel like we said okay this is now the end of the of the show that that was amazing to see everybody

[01:05:36] from the first episode to the last in the movie that I was I was surprised by that I didn't work on

[01:05:42] the movie I don't know why I think I was a reporter at that point because Susan you hadn't seen

[01:05:46] the movie when we first started chatting about this so I think yeah it must be quite a surprise

[01:05:49] with yeah I wasn't on I left the show a month or so before it was over the last season and then um

[01:05:56] and then I became a newspaper reporter so I didn't work on it after that yeah that was

[01:06:03] impressive I mean it was tricky because we didn't we filmed the last episode we filmed the final

[01:06:07] episode not knowing whether we were gonna get picked up or not right to my recollect right time

[01:06:13] yeah yeah that that but the one thing we did do in case it was the last episode we took the dialogue

[01:06:22] from the very first episode and reused exactly the dialogue for the end of the episode right

[01:06:31] just as a kind of like just in case uh this will be the book ends yeah and it's funny before I saw

[01:06:38] the interview where on one of the DVDs where you mentioned that I had just finished watching

[01:06:44] the last episode and because at that point I'm like now I can't remember what was though I started

[01:06:48] watching them all over again and I then I watched the first episode and at the end of the first

[01:06:53] episode I'm like whoa wait a minute that's exactly what just happened at the end of the last episode

[01:07:00] and not only was it the same dialogue but it was interesting that that it was Clark who was in all seven

[01:07:07] seasons so it was Clark in the alley with the flashlights obviously couldn't be Cressetti because he

[01:07:14] was gone but it was with Michael Michelle who at that point was a new detect you know she'd been

[01:07:19] on the show but was like a new detective um but that line that's the trouble with this job it ain't

[01:07:26] about life um was was you know the cap at the end of the show and and and you know obviously then

[01:07:34] there was the montage but but the idea what Julie said first which was you know we speak for the dead

[01:07:40] which is another line that became a motto for like keeping the show on track um but that that tagline

[01:07:48] that's the trouble with this job it ain't about life the two of those together really um powerful

[01:07:55] powerful little sentences no words sometimes words do actually matter

[01:08:03] I slightly maybe controversial question I hope not but um obviously you've just mentioned

[01:08:08] early about the threat of cancellation things like that and I know there were discussions constantly

[01:08:12] about ratings and there are some changes in the show over time like the total sequence changes

[01:08:18] there's a bit more action a bit more violence of the Luther Mahoney shooting and then the shoot out

[01:08:22] in the squad room in season six I think that was um can you talk just a little bit about some of

[01:08:27] those changes and what you kind of thought about those changes and and and so on and sex forget

[01:08:33] I forgot they had a sex yeah forget about that um I I um I listen I if if it didn't work it's my fault

[01:08:47] and I didn't I didn't approve anything that I didn't feel uh was wrong for the show I um

[01:08:58] I you know again you're doing multiple seasons multiple um years and you want the thing

[01:09:05] the heart of it to stay the same but you don't want to do the same thing every single day

[01:09:12] and so our show was always if you'll pardon the expression about fucking it up we were the

[01:09:18] sloppiest show on television and it was our matter of pride for us yeah um so we would try things

[01:09:25] and they'd work or they didn't work and we go great or we'd move on so um all the changes we made

[01:09:32] some were some were suggestions by the by the network um uh but uh mostly it was stuff that

[01:09:43] Barry and I talked through and decided this is what we'll do I'll give you two terrible examples

[01:09:49] the head of NBC who was not Garth Ann Sir at that time it was Warren Littlefield he called me once

[01:09:57] and he said you've got to uh Andre has gained too much weight and you've got to tell Andre to lose

[01:10:06] weight and I said Warren there are there are many things I will do in this life but one of them is not

[01:10:15] telling Andre Bauer to lose weight and I said if you want him to lose weight you call him

[01:10:25] and tell him to lose weight that was the last conversation about his weight um and he hadn't

[01:10:31] get I mean it wasn't like he was suddenly uh you know fat I don't know where it came from

[01:10:37] the other thing was um Melissa had played a uh lawyer on lawn order um and was looked you know

[01:10:48] was all uh dressed up and makeup and hair done and Warren called me and said well that's how she should

[01:10:55] look on our show and I said no Melissa specifically says her character does not wear makeup

[01:11:07] this is this is a matter of her character being defined by her look as much as anything else

[01:11:14] so that was another thing so we you'd get those comments and you'd have to like

[01:11:19] really swat them down because they would uh you know you can it's one thing to say oh let's

[01:11:27] let's um put a little more color in the in the show and it's another thing to say to an actor

[01:11:34] redefine your character because the network thinks you need to wear dresses it was easier to uh

[01:11:40] to uh because they kept talking about the promo is right what's the promo moment what's the promo

[01:11:45] moment I mean it was easier to just like blow something up then put makeup on us Leo so we did a

[01:11:55] couple of those like high intensity for the promo moments someone was pretty successful what to say

[01:12:02] along those lines and adding the gun battles and and um the two main uh shootout scenes

[01:12:08] you mentioned earlier Jorge that um you're really good at writing action did that come in

[01:12:13] did that come in for you um when when the show at times became an action show

[01:12:18] the action moments I loved writing the actual one because it I thought it balanced out

[01:12:23] and i think we all agree because it wasn't over the top stuff if it made sense to have

[01:12:28] a foot chase or a fist bite or something um it felt like it was kind of like there was a moment

[01:12:34] in the episode that kind of kind of stood out I wrote an episode with Jeffrey Donovan I mentioned earlier

[01:12:41] which was my homage to Terence Malik and Badlands one of my favorite movies ever um and uh

[01:12:48] I got to get away with a little more violence and that because it made sense for the characters

[01:12:52] and it wasn't gratuitous on any level um just like it wasn't in the in the film so uh those moments

[01:12:58] were they were fun and they kind of stood out because most of the time you're showing up and there's

[01:13:03] or the violence is over and so you're just kind of piecing back together what the violence was

[01:13:08] well what what episode was that that was that was influenced by Badlands was it the the 95 shooter

[01:13:14] the guy that was going up and down 95 I can't remember uh interesting

[01:13:18] I love to figure that out. I'm waiting in season three. Was it thrill of the kill?

[01:13:22] thrill of the kill that's it out of interest um were what were the influences apart from the book on

[01:13:28] homicide especially like other should would or any other shows or movies were there any influences

[01:13:33] they might not have been when I first went down there I spent some time with the real detectives

[01:13:37] in the book um and hung out with them and drinks with them and got sort of got into their pockets

[01:13:44] um and that really helps with sort of fleshing current on building that building our story

[01:13:49] and I would say that we purposely avoided because at that time it was there was NYPD blue in

[01:13:56] law and order the mothership and we we were very consciously trying not to do what they did

[01:14:02] in the way that we define the characters or the way we shot uh and and it is it like

[01:14:10] um there was some other film or television show that we I mean I think that was the joy of

[01:14:17] the show was we weren't trying to copy anybody we were we were stupidly stumbling along at our own

[01:14:24] pace oh are you just mentioned you spend some time with the detectives uh the real detectives do

[01:14:29] you have any sort of memories or any of you have any memories of hanging out with actual detectives

[01:14:33] walls of researching the show I have one funny one funny thing is uh the guy who the character of

[01:14:41] Pendleton was loosely based on uh he came to the set one day and he and we were shooting in a bar

[01:14:49] and Pendleton goes up to the goes up to the bartender and says I'd like a glass of milk

[01:14:57] and the and the and the real detective goes I don't drink milk he was like furious with us and I

[01:15:05] had to sit him down and literally say this is not you okay I understand you you you you feel like

[01:15:13] you have ownership of this character but i have no way to predict where this character will be in

[01:15:19] five years and you may not want to be associated with the character in five years so just give

[01:15:26] that up now and he's gonna drink the milk and Jorge were you were you gonna say something yeah

[01:15:32] I just talked out with these two detectives um and their voices were the exact I mean David nailed

[01:15:37] them um because I I felt like I knew them because I'd read the book um and it was just sort of

[01:15:45] the attitude and the dark humor I mean the the graveyard humor of these guys is so necessary

[01:15:51] and they say there's no way I can not go home and you know and uh and harm myself if I figure

[01:15:57] out a way I got to release this the memory of this I got to release the stress of this and the

[01:16:01] age to give each other so much crap um and it was hysterical and that really informed me

[01:16:07] about the psychological tools you sort of have to develop on the better detectives to make it

[01:16:12] through a 20 year career to make it through the day and jesus do you have any experiences

[01:16:15] with any detectives or anything I mean I remember I remember talking uh to some of them um and I've

[01:16:22] talked to you know a lot of cops and lawyers through my career and it's um yeah it's always like

[01:16:30] the little things that really strike you you know the the small moments of like I mean then they're just

[01:16:37] real people they get up in the morning and we have a cup of coffee or not or at its it's not I mean

[01:16:46] sometimes I think what we did very well Tom and that was coming from tom and barry and and David was

[01:16:53] show these guys as people not necessarily heroes all the time and not not superheroes and not

[01:17:03] um which some not to name names but some tv shows do over I think I know they want

[01:17:14] make heroes I think they're just they're people they're just like us except they

[01:17:21] take down killers for a living and talking about the there were no direct influences on

[01:17:32] the show because it was groundbreaking and in in in multiple interviews on the DVD set um

[01:17:41] somebody and it might have been tom or everybody says at one point

[01:17:44] it definitely was not murder she wrote or we didn't want it to be murder she wrote

[01:17:50] and the thing is funny is I actually before I moved back home I when I lived in LA for eight years

[01:17:55] I worked on murder she wrote and um and when you said that I had this picture in my head because of

[01:18:02] course obviously was john and Alex there were there were no light stands on the set uh

[01:18:08] there were no flags there were no nets there were no grip stands if there were grip stands uh

[01:18:14] you know or flag stands they were off you know cutting light off a window somewhere they weren't on

[01:18:18] the set because john or Alex were could be everywhere and I remember specifically I worked the

[01:18:25] cameraman I worked with on murder she wrote was Dennis dolls out and when he lit Angela Landsbury

[01:18:32] there was a forest and I don't this is not exaggeration of forest of uh uh flags

[01:18:40] and we had a special lavender net that we used um for her she looked fucking great she looked great

[01:18:47] but it was like you literally could not walk through the set about ducking and dodging when

[01:18:55] we were doing close-ups on her because he was really specific with this literally forest of nets

[01:19:01] and flags um on her so yeah definitely not murder she wrote uh in the way that it was shot especially

[01:19:09] because we didn't last 13 seasons yeah well seven was pretty good seven was pretty good

[01:19:18] we love Angela Landsbury we do I did too she's always had a fantasy I always had a fantasy

[01:19:26] which I told her once uh that after her show was gone too that I thought it'd be great if she

[01:19:33] did a cameo on a homicide that suddenly just like wait a minute there's that there's that

[01:19:40] mystery writer you know she's in a store signing books anyway uh we never did it because she

[01:19:46] oh she turned out to be the killer yeah yeah no I mean I'm sure CBS would have never allowed us

[01:19:52] to do it um even you know as a joke they would never allowed us to do it so funny you know if

[01:19:58] Jessica Fletcher's in town the bodies are gonna start dropping right I mean it definitely yeah

[01:20:03] I think panels in a Jessica Fletcher would be very interesting to see

[01:20:07] yeah oh no you did manage a surreptitious CBS crossover didn't you with that with that is true

[01:20:14] but that that happened uh without anybody knowing what was that what happened was um in in doll's eyes

[01:20:22] when the parents decide to um donate the organs the boys organs John Tinker who we had all worked

[01:20:29] with on uh on St. Elsewhere was doing Chicago Hope so I had the idea that um one of the places where

[01:20:41] one of the organs would go would be Chicago Hope and I asked John to film

[01:20:49] um Mandy Patankin running up and getting the organ and then running off

[01:20:55] and uh and I was like I really need to clear this with everybody but then I was like

[01:21:01] nah well why should I and I I didn't cut the shot in the show they'll in the last cut that I

[01:21:10] sent NBC I cut it in after I sent after NBC had signed off on the episode and I sent

[01:21:20] and we went on the air and the next day Warren Littlefield called me and he went

[01:21:25] you think you're pretty clever don't you

[01:21:30] and I was like yeah actually I sort of do better to ask for forgiveness and permission exactly

[01:21:38] I just saw that I just watched that the other night and then and then a sort of you had

[01:21:42] you did your nod to St. Elsewhere um in the movie with Ed Begley Jr right as as one of the doctors

[01:21:50] we also had Alfred Woodard as um uh as her in her part on St. Elsewhere um she and Andre had some great

[01:22:00] scenes together um so yeah yeah well that was a very good episode she was in yeah she's always

[01:22:08] Alfred's just like it's impossible for her to be bad

[01:22:11] hmm because about Euthanasia that one I've ever remember correct isn't it yeah that's right

[01:22:15] really interesting episode yeah yeah and it was really challenging pelton's

[01:22:19] faith I believe if I remember here yeah excellent well out of interest I was going to ask just

[01:22:25] a bit about the the cast because it was such a diverse cast if you had any sort of um you know

[01:22:31] such a brilliant cast really for the show I don't know if you have any sort of memories of

[01:22:35] some of the actors or anything you want to say about the cast really well uh you know I was

[01:22:40] involved in barri and I basically cast the show but barri had uh in his contract a clause that said

[01:22:49] that he did not have to get permission uh to cast any of the regulars from NBC unheard of this

[01:22:57] was unheard of so but uh the casting director d'NBC it was an old friend of mine and she said look

[01:23:04] can you just keep me hosted on who your casting just so I don't look like a total idiot you know

[01:23:12] and I was like fine and so every time we cast somebody I'd call her and I'd say oh you know we have

[01:23:18] we have Yafit Koto oh great we have Ned Betty oh great um and she'd say each time she'd go don't

[01:23:25] forget we need a hunk we need a hunk and I'd be like yeah yeah yeah and we go through and we're

[01:23:32] casting we have one part left and she says don't forget we need a hunk and I said okay and I called

[01:23:39] her I said well we cast the last part and she said who and I said Richard Belzer

[01:23:45] and she said but Tommy's not a hunk I went I know I know what are you gonna do

[01:23:56] so that was that was casting on homicide life on the street

[01:24:02] well we brought in Reed Diamond to John say uh we had sweet right there were some hunts on there

[01:24:07] we won on a few hunts later later yeah but you pointed out one of the elves or had worn off his

[01:24:13] hunk dump right you pointed out somewhere that well that may have been the case but Belzer got all

[01:24:21] the action on this show and the Belzer had you know the the the wife and the destruction in the

[01:24:27] whole nine yards he had and we had three wives didn't he tell I don't remember

[01:24:33] had three wives yeah and and then he ended up doing the part on on the lawn order as you and and

[01:24:42] right I think up until now with Frazier I think he was the longest lasting character in television

[01:24:50] and he was another one I worked with him on Scarface he was a stand-up comedian

[01:24:56] uh in a club scene in Scarface as before he was you know before anybody really knew who he was

[01:25:03] that's funny yeah how didn't it be into his shadow in France I just like the idea he had the shadow

[01:25:09] in front I have yes um oh it's it's I mean his wife still has it it's it's beautiful it's um

[01:25:20] you know it's I mean big house um another house a swimming pool tennis court you know it's

[01:25:30] it is it's an ideal place to to live um uh and uh yeah he was he and Harley were very happy

[01:25:40] all those years there and you mentioned early on um Jorge because we talked about um people

[01:25:48] saying it was the best experience of their careers um can you all talk about what

[01:25:54] and obviously they're you know there's episodes there's this there's that but you know a lot of it is

[01:25:59] that was it was really a coming together not just up the idea of this groundbreaking show but

[01:26:06] the crew for me for me also was the best experience in my career because the crew was just

[01:26:13] amazing um but maybe you can all talk about what that what the experience was that made it

[01:26:19] so impactful if you can I don't know if that's true for me it was it was safe it was a safe place to

[01:26:26] screw up you you you could trust your instincts to to know that you had they had your back the

[01:26:33] other writers had my back I had theirs sometimes enough to gang bang an episode out or gang

[01:26:38] bannett scene out we hope we'd all just sort of do a fire drill and work together and trust each

[01:26:43] other and doing the set early on we had breakfast together with lunch together at rap uh we'd go over

[01:26:49] to the fame street tavern where we had a key when it was closed uh because the owners knew

[01:26:55] we were gonna be uh coming over and they weren't there yet so they gave us a key we go inside

[01:27:01] and uh it was just it was it was a family um and from from every member of the crew to have

[01:27:10] every member of the cast it it was just a safe place it was just you could do anything

[01:27:16] oh my god it was fun it was fun it was hard I mean you know you didn't even we didn't even

[01:27:21] I mean some days were harder than others obviously but you know at the end of the day we didn't really

[01:27:26] didn't feel like oh my gosh we've been working for eight hours we've been doing rewrite so

[01:27:32] we've been on set it was just it just felt fun and then we got together at the end of the day

[01:27:37] and talked about the day that we had can I uh can I pay tribute to Jim Finnerty because I think

[01:27:46] the show ran as efficiently and beautifully as it did because Jim had the incredible first of all

[01:27:57] he had worked on crews so he was not a dilatant telling people uh how to work he had actually been

[01:28:07] in the trenches and he um he had both a sense of uh we can do this on time and on budget

[01:28:21] but he also had an enormous capacity to take care of the people on the crew

[01:28:29] and the actors uh the number of times and this I really won't mention names uh that he

[01:28:37] got an actor out of jail um uh um was really quite quite amazing and nobody knew nobody knew about it

[01:28:50] because he also would never gossip about anybody but um uh he really he really made that show

[01:29:02] work on a day-to-day hour by hour basis and there was nobody like him there's not anybody like him

[01:29:11] you always felt with you said hooray we always felt safe we always felt safe we always felt like our

[01:29:17] backs were protected and that was you know Tom and Finnerty. Yeah one other slightly lethile question

[01:29:26] from me uh and I hope it doesn't feel really stupid but um we were talking about Baltimore food

[01:29:32] in an episode not long ago and I hear the crew were living off fried gizzards what were the writers

[01:29:37] living off alcohol we have the key to the tower well I was gonna say when he talked about going

[01:29:50] across the street it was coffee during the day uh because remember you guys did those mugs that said uh

[01:29:59] it's all in the caffeine oh yeah or something like that was a horrible thing

[01:30:05] that horrible thing no offense grapple right? grapple. What is that?

[01:30:12] what is that? yeah more ads grapple.

[01:30:15] yeah

[01:30:17] it's a great thing you talk about going across the street because obviously um somebody mentioned it

[01:30:23] well how great it was I mean across from the pier where are the where the cops sets were

[01:30:30] you know it looked like the you know the Brooklyn back lot you know universal studios I mean

[01:30:35] you had a back lot on Thames Street you know with cobblestone streets I mean it's amazing but going

[01:30:40] across the street to the bar every night um it wasn't just the crew you know you all were there too

[01:30:47] and um and I remember especially it and I don't know why at some point we got kicked out of the

[01:30:51] waterfront I don't know what happened why we weren't allowed in the waterfront anymore but uh

[01:30:56] that it was kind of worse and Patrick was just really a doll at lettoness and I saw him in a cameo

[01:31:04] in one of the last episodes I was like that's Patrick um but that at closing time he

[01:31:10] he could some nights he would black out it take grip black and they would black the windows out

[01:31:15] um and we and we would stay in there um yeah it really was quite the family because who you

[01:31:22] know who had a family to go home to I mean that was the family you all were the family the the crew

[01:31:28] we all watched the show together right in Friday night yeah it's been really nostalgic and fun going

[01:31:34] through um all the episodes but also talking to people talking to Jean and we did an episode with Josh

[01:31:41] um and Joe about all the things they had to invent so it's just it really has been um it's been fun

[01:31:48] and I thank you guys for agreeing to talk to us because this has really been terrific

[01:31:53] well thank you thank you for thank you for keeping the flame alive because as you know

[01:32:00] yes talk about that fine homicide well we are trying to figure out why this is the mystery

[01:32:07] the Barry levin synony we have asked our agents to look into it we have asked everybody we know

[01:32:14] it NBC and no one has an answer that makes any sense to us um it it um you know they're they're

[01:32:23] they're gonna reshow LA law they're they they started showing suits which hadn't been on for five

[01:32:30] years um people I'll see all the time when is hot gonna be on and we get we get no no real

[01:32:39] answer from NBC about it we cannot figure out why they won't tell us why or they come up with a

[01:32:45] reason that you go like but that doesn't make any sense well plus plus the fact that you know it's not

[01:32:51] we talked about this earlier that it's not dated I mean it's not like a lot of shows you look at

[01:32:56] from the 80s it's very it looks very dated this show does not look dated so so why do you think

[01:33:03] that why do you think 30 years ago I hope it's still relevant it still looks great because I think

[01:33:09] it was its own it was own beast it was its own animal and um you know for me what was interesting was

[01:33:21] how the handheld thing got to be mainstream over the course of time suddenly everybody was shooting

[01:33:29] handheld um but uh I hope everyone who's listening will call NBC and say

[01:33:37] stream homicide quote me a sentence as well yeah

[01:33:46] I was shocked when I first went back to to to start researching and watching the episodes

[01:33:51] I was on my fire stick going wait wait wait wait what what do you mean it's it wasn't anywhere

[01:33:57] that's just blew my mind that it wasn't anywhere yeah yeah let me just say quickly again thank you very

[01:34:02] much yeah thanks everybody thank you oh you're welcome thank you

[01:34:16] so

[01:34:26] so that was Tom Julian Jorge and that was a really very interesting chat I really enjoyed listening

[01:34:32] back to that and I found quite a few cool points I think the big one that stood out for me was

[01:34:36] that the show was predominantly about what happens to a person when they go to their job and every day

[01:34:42] there is a dead body um and that was sort of the focus of the show and Julie put it as we speak for

[01:34:47] the dead and I thought it was really that really does make a lot of sense when you look back at

[01:34:52] homicide I think that's what makes it stand out from other police dramas yeah that was great that

[01:34:57] was a great fun reconnecting with everybody and they were so open and candid and obviously you

[01:35:02] could just really hear the excitement in their voices about wanting to talk about it and once

[01:35:07] again I'm gonna say it again about how everybody says it it was the best experience of their careers

[01:35:14] and that excitement 30 years later it just really is really cool to connect with I also thought

[01:35:21] it was interesting that even though on the crew we we didn't know season to season whether we

[01:35:27] were going to get picked up again and they didn't know that either and that even though they express

[01:35:32] concerns about the network pressure about what what was expected or that we were doing something so

[01:35:39] different the network sort of didn't know what to do that they that they really often were left alone

[01:35:45] to do and write what they wanted and Jorge mentioned that that was really freeing that level of freedom

[01:35:51] to try non-traditional things was really freeing and also I think not really duplicated since then because

[01:35:58] none of them have said they've had a similar experience since homicide that that was real incubator

[01:36:07] especially for the writers well and I think for Jean-Touffeur for the camera for the cinematographer to

[01:36:13] do things that were totally outside the traditional box yeah yeah Jorge and Julie have both worked on

[01:36:22] the crossover episodes with Law and Order and I think Julie even still works on Law and Order at

[01:36:26] the moment and Law and Order is sort of a very different show because Law and Order's more

[01:36:32] procedural whilst homicide was a bit more kind of character led and I don't mean that as a negative

[01:36:36] it just that is the way it is and Jorge goes into detail about what it was like to write those

[01:36:40] crossover episodes but I thought it was really interesting. There are two different things Law and Order

[01:36:44] and the homicide are two different things and but what he loved about homicide not that he didn't

[01:36:49] write about people on Law and Order but that homicide there was maybe a deeper dig on the characters

[01:36:57] and he talked about getting into the heart and soul of the people and of the characters which I

[01:37:02] thought was really interesting and going back to the very beginning when they were enticed to be

[01:37:08] on the show number one when Barry asked Tom to be on the show said I want to do a cop show with

[01:37:15] no guns and no car chases and everybody and then Tom said that to Jorge and Julie to get them

[01:37:23] on board and they were all interested although they didn't know how on earth you could do a cop show

[01:37:27] without guns and car chases. Yeah indeed indeed I think also Tom thought that you couldn't make a show

[01:37:33] better than Hill Street Blues at that time he felt that was the cop show and when they were to go

[01:37:39] to directors I was just thinking about Martin Campbell now Martin Campbell went on to direct

[01:37:43] Golden Eye which was the film that reinvigorated the James Bond franchise and he made Zorro

[01:37:49] and Cassina Royale which launched Daniel Craig as James Bond and so you know Martin

[01:37:55] Campbell's name is very familiar with me and just to hear about how the cast refusing to work

[01:38:01] with him on his blocking on the first day of filming I find that slightly amusing and terrifying

[01:38:06] as a director because I couldn't think of anything worse than you go on to a show and suddenly nobody's

[01:38:11] cooperating with you I must be quite terrifying at that point. I love that story that was the first

[01:38:15] season so I wasn't there for that but I love that idea that Julie said at a certain point

[01:38:21] they would just say once Tom was busy on other projects and Oz and it was coming back

[01:38:26] to the force of New York instead of being in Baltimore full time saying don't make us call Tom. Yeah

[01:38:32] which was funny but that story about him going out about him coming out of the set and saying

[01:38:38] anybody who doesn't want to be in this scene coming out in the hall with me and I'll write you

[01:38:42] out of it. I probably write them out the show for good nobody showed up that was uh

[01:38:48] and that sort of goes to the point they talked about when I asked about you know I've been on other

[01:38:55] projects where people don't want to see the writers on the set and Tom laughed and said not on

[01:39:02] on series television you know the writers are basically God yeah and that the directors are the ones

[01:39:07] that come in part-time and are gone in seven days so so it was a different it was a different

[01:39:14] experience than you know then a feature when the writer shows up in the in the directors like get

[01:39:20] at it. I can't in defense of directors I know sometimes what they're coming from because it does

[01:39:25] depend on the writer um because sometimes when working with actors you need to allow the actors to be

[01:39:31] a bit free and sometimes even um to maybe play or say the line in a different way than it was

[01:39:39] intended in the screenplay but sometimes by playing it the opposite way makes it the way it's

[01:39:44] intended that makes sense and sometimes if you don't have a writer who's sort of open-minded

[01:39:49] they can start trying to intervene and confuse the actor and undermine the director because then

[01:39:54] they can go up to the actor and say well hang on a minute you're supposed to say this way

[01:39:57] and then the actors confuse because the director told them to do it that way and then suddenly get

[01:40:01] too many people too many cooks in the kitchen so that does sometimes happen and I think the the

[01:40:06] why well TV the writer is king um so ultimately as Tom was saying these directors are a bit

[01:40:12] expendable um but uh but from a practicality point of view you just could have a bit careful there

[01:40:18] aren't too many voices going to the actors to confuse them um and I think you know from my

[01:40:23] limits experiences with directing people and stuff I've certainly um I find some writers can be very

[01:40:28] overbearing in some a much more open stack collaboration um and they're very overbearing and very

[01:40:36] dogmatic about the way things need to be performed I think that equals trouble sometimes so yeah

[01:40:41] is an interesting one though yeah and I think we heard you know probably more than once the actors say

[01:40:47] I wouldn't say it that way and and and and the actor because and Tom mentioned this in the interview um

[01:40:54] the actor he I thought it was really interesting he said when the show starts the writers know everything

[01:40:59] about the character and once the actors get into the character the character knows that the actor

[01:41:06] knows everything about the character yeah yeah and so what I felt from the interview was that his

[01:41:11] feeling was that they would defer um maybe not all the time but that but that they felt

[01:41:17] confident in the fact that you know if the actor felt like something needed to be changed

[01:41:23] that you know that veered from the script a little bit that they knew that the that the actor knew

[01:41:28] the character really well for sure at the point especially after years and years and years

[01:41:34] yeah yeah and I think a lot of wise television directors would probably you know defer a bit to

[01:41:39] the actor because the actor knows that part so well and you're just the the random person brought in

[01:41:43] for the week I can't remember I think you phrased it as the was it the foreigner who comes in or something

[01:41:50] for the week um so yeah so I think I think a lot of directors end up doing probably more work with

[01:41:56] the guest cast and sort of keeping them on track and then just being there as a sounding board for

[01:42:01] the lead actors um and just making sure that they land the story beats correctly um and you know

[01:42:09] but yeah so it's uh it's very interesting yeah and it was interesting and maybe if we get a chance

[01:42:13] to talk to Barry um hoping we can get Barry and and David on together and also Jim Yoshimura the idea

[01:42:20] that um and Tom mentioned this in the interview that Barry wanted feature directors to come in

[01:42:26] yeah so it was very interesting which is really interesting because what

[01:42:29] it seems to me that what that does is it brings a feature director who obviously has

[01:42:34] you know a lot of experience and it interesting sort of long format

[01:42:39] experience but then to come into a show I mean and then have to flip themselves on their head

[01:42:43] creatively because then you're on a show it's not a two it's not even a two week schedule it's not

[01:42:48] a two month schedule it's not a six I've worked on features that were six months that was you know

[01:42:53] crazy um and and have to get this script that maybe is about half the size of a feature script so

[01:43:03] you're talking 90 pages as opposed to you know 280 pages for a feature script and get it done in

[01:43:10] seven days yeah I mean I would think if I was a feature director that would be terrifying

[01:43:17] because I couldn't sit there all day and and literally I mean take 23 you know that's not

[01:43:22] happening you know although I do remember at one point where we did get up to

[01:43:27] I think Andre and I were talking about where's M in alphabet how many retakes how many different

[01:43:33] times have we done this and I seem to me we were in the box I don't remember what what seen that was

[01:43:39] but um but yeah I would love to ask Barry why he thought that because it certainly would have brought

[01:43:47] a different or a new kind of energy to the show to have every director be a feature film director

[01:43:57] on a show that's not just episodic television it is episodic television on you know speed

[01:44:03] because of what we had to do with the handheld cameras and the long scenes so yeah I think the shooting

[01:44:10] style probably helped with that because if you think about shooting the same show with like dollies

[01:44:16] or relighting suddenly you see how time just vanishes so I think that kind of philosophy

[01:44:22] of the style really helped yeah and maybe we could if we do a little deeper dive on some of

[01:44:27] that if we get a chance to talk to a couple directors of um it's very much the fashion now to have

[01:44:35] these wide set pieces locked off you know on a tripod probably on a dolly locked off

[01:44:42] and have these sort of very isolating scenes with with the character in characters interacting

[01:44:49] with each other in space I mean it's a it's a very sort of thing now to have these very set

[01:44:55] pieces and obviously there were probably directors on homicide that were like oh god why is the

[01:44:59] camera moving all the time you know that didn't ever shoot like that ever on anything they worked on

[01:45:05] except maybe Catherine Bigelow I was just thinking um it was before his wow wasn't

[01:45:10] before his time but it was sort of before his time the director of the Jason Bourne films

[01:45:15] Paul Greengrass who made handheld very fashionable but his handheld was very shaky and making

[01:45:21] the camera very apparent most of homicide it becomes almost invisible so it's yeah yeah

[01:45:27] and he did a film about the troubles right what we did yeah yeah bloody Sunday god that was a great

[01:45:33] film and yes that whole I'm running down the street with the people who were being shot at so

[01:45:38] yeah obviously yeah that'd be interesting to look at again I would assume he was shooting it in 35

[01:45:43] you know for theatrical release but yeah I think he was and then and probably had some smaller

[01:45:48] handheld cameras for for that were supposed to be point of view of television you know have a

[01:45:53] yeah a documentary film maybe I'd have to go back and look at that's love that film that was a

[01:45:57] great film yeah well there's ever a homicide the next generation they should get Paul Greengrass

[01:46:01] in to at least do it in that great idea yeah that's what we'll have like a we'll have a little

[01:46:07] bowl full of suggestions you know Barry if you ever do this again here's yeah

[01:46:12] can Patrick Stewart in you know yes right at the helm

[01:46:18] Patrick Stewart is the new lieutenant oh my goodness yeah make it so

[01:46:25] to the lieutenant McLaughlin being in the Scottish actors uh yeah yeah that's brilliant well um

[01:46:32] you know are there any other thoughts do anyone it stood out for me was back on the law and

[01:46:36] order thing I let the story about Jerry all backs pull skills so true I never worked on a show where

[01:46:43] you you could do that a shot like that and I've done shows where there were people playing pool

[01:46:48] probably probably murder she wrote although you know I worked with Jerry or Bach on murder she wrote

[01:46:53] I have to go back and look up what that episode was and he played sort of a rumpled detective it seems

[01:46:58] to me yeah um on that I don't I have to look back and see if they had worked in a pool scene

[01:47:07] yeah and interesting the actors that had that that floated back and forth on those um crossover

[01:47:13] episodes to uh the and how different their experience was um to have to have on on homicide and

[01:47:21] I think Jerry or Bach commented on one of the behind-the-scenes documentaries in the DVD set that um

[01:47:29] I mean where did I hear him say that that that it was so much fun because he was he had he had

[01:47:34] he had like a sex life they were talking about his sex life with belsars of first wife yeah yeah

[01:47:42] he's like never had never had that and then the bar the bar made or the the yeah the bar

[01:47:48] flirting with the bartender flirting with him um was a whole different experience for him from

[01:47:52] law and order it was fun yeah what we talked about the sort of book ends of the script

[01:48:01] from the very first episode and the the script words from the very last episode um that that sort

[01:48:09] of was a was a compliment to the um we speak for the dead it was another line that's what's wrong

[01:48:15] with this job it ain't got nothing to do with life and we speak for the dead yeah really uh

[01:48:22] tells the whole story for them and how they how what their jobs meant

[01:48:30] and in some ways why why a homicide detective might keep doing it for 30 years even though

[01:48:37] it's so difficult like like Tom says how do you do a showback guys that show up to work every day

[01:48:43] to a dead body every day over and over and over and over again yeah or hey talked about um

[01:48:48] meeting the detectives and this idea of and you get the sense of it in right off the bat in David's book

[01:48:55] that the the gallows humor is so would be so inappropriate anywhere else

[01:49:05] but in order to survive now obviously people survive in different ways but

[01:49:09] um in order to survive and to be able to sort of compartmentalize that like how could you take

[01:49:15] this horror home with you every day it had to be parsed in some different way so that you're not

[01:49:22] just absorbing it you know over and over and over again and over and over and over and it comes

[01:49:27] up in the episode bot gun which is one of Robin Williams um so Daniel Bolvin's character kind of

[01:49:34] is is in that gallows humor i come everybody's saying but he's sort of being quite openly sort of

[01:49:38] rude about about the case and i think the husband potentially and in the husband over here and

[01:49:43] he shocks and then he goes to geo what this man off the case and then she has a chat with him

[01:49:48] and explains why he is the way he is right and that he was going to do a good job and he was going

[01:49:54] to help solve the case um but that that was how they got through their days and um and interesting

[01:50:02] that the Gary D'Aario who geordela's character was based on who and tom they mentioned this in

[01:50:08] the interview um who became a tech advisor and then the SWAT team commander uh on on set on camera

[01:50:18] especially in the sniper episode but in other episodes too and if you met him besides his body

[01:50:22] language it's cops and people in the military have have a different body well you can tell their

[01:50:30] cops and military people because of the way they stand or the way they talk war but Gary oh he

[01:50:35] may have had that like you may have looked at him and thought oh he's probably a cop because the

[01:50:38] way he talks or what walks but he was so jocular and funny so if you met him somewhere else you

[01:50:46] wouldn't peg it you wouldn't say oh i bet he's a homicide detective you know you wouldn't think

[01:50:51] that um and in the book uh you know David talks about his um his sort they had the sort of courtly

[01:51:00] way of speaking that was their sort of funny uh precinct cop speak but it was this this

[01:51:08] sort of elevated courtly speak that they used that was almost like a comedy routine

[01:51:14] yeah uh you know and and gee did that some in homicide but um his eminence and things like that

[01:51:21] yeah and so i think that that you know with and i can't speak for Gary didario but

[01:51:26] that that that he had a personality that somehow managed to absorb all that horror but then

[01:51:33] you know have have uh you know be funny and be relaxed and you know yeah

[01:51:41] yeah who who knows how people are able to deal with things like that's amazing

[01:51:45] well this is it's that ability to compartmentalize you know with the some of the intelligence officers

[01:51:50] spoken to my other podcast you know that's a very vital skill being able to just remember that

[01:51:55] the person you're trying to recruit and what may happen to them they're not really you know

[01:52:00] they're not your friends they're just they're they're part of the job you know and that's the bit

[01:52:04] that's why i'd be a crap spy i think because my problem is i'd befriend people and i'm

[01:52:09] i'm not so you know it's interesting that that that theme are you mentioned in

[01:52:16] i think in one of the other conversations or maybe this conversation you mentioned the creator

[01:52:21] which i just watched the other one yes which is totally about that moral dilemma of a cop

[01:52:27] who infiltrates who falls in love you know who thinks he's doing the right thing until he finds out

[01:52:33] he's not doing the right thing and has to completely switch his point of view over um so that

[01:52:40] yeah obviously difficult difficult situations for sure to be in especially in that that kind of

[01:52:46] work yeah yeah indeed indeed right thank you for that season thanks Chris i hope everybody enjoyed

[01:52:52] that episode we really enjoyed the discussion please follow and connect with us on social media

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