S1 Ep4: Filming Homicide with Gaffer Josh Spring and Key Grip Joe Kurtz

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award-winning television show

[00:00:20] Homicide Life On The Street with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram. On today's

[00:00:32] podcast we're joined by key grip Joe Kurtz and gaffer Josh Spring and we do a

[00:00:37] deep dive into the lighting and camera movement on homicide. Hello everybody and

[00:01:06] welcome back to Homicide Life On The Set so today we have a very interesting

[00:01:11] interview with Josh Spring and Joe Kurtz. Josh was the gaffer and Joe was the

[00:01:17] key grip on homicide life on the streets and Susan there may be some members of

[00:01:23] the audience who don't know what a gaffer or a key grip is but they are

[00:01:27] actually integral to the show they're kind of like some of the one of the

[00:01:30] many unsung heroes of film and television so I'll let you explain

[00:01:35] what a gaffer and a key grip is. Absolutely and that's one of the most

[00:01:40] common questions I used to get as much anymore but a lot of questions that you

[00:01:45] get and one of them is when people read the credits they see key grip gaffer

[00:01:50] and best boy. The gaffer is the head lighting technician and works very

[00:01:54] closely well they both do but works very closely with the camera the

[00:01:58] cinematographer on the lighting and the key grip are the crew that

[00:02:04] build and put everything together if you're on a sound stage which we

[00:02:07] weren't they would be the guys moving or and women because there are women

[00:02:12] grips grips would be moving the walls they're the ones that would build

[00:02:16] the dolly track which always have dolly so the so Joe's the one who would

[00:02:21] be putting down the speed rail and the the apparatus that Jean would move

[00:02:26] around on so they're the sort of the construction fixers and the key

[00:02:30] grip would be the leader of that group and on both sides lighting and

[00:02:35] gripping the best boy would be the second in command. Yeah brilliant thank

[00:02:40] you for that this episode is quite technical but I think it goes into

[00:02:44] what made Hummyside such an innovative show to look at not just from the

[00:02:49] lighting point of view but mainly from the kind of camera movement as

[00:02:52] well a lot of very interesting devices were invented specifically on

[00:02:57] the show to help create that kind of handheld verite look but to sort

[00:03:02] of give it a bit more of a cinematic scope than just having a camera on

[00:03:06] your shoulder. Right and because it veered so far from traditional

[00:03:13] broadcast filmmaking they were creating things on the fly to see what

[00:03:19] work. Yeah. Like like the chair going down the stairs of the our main

[00:03:23] stairway and how they built something so that the camera man could

[00:03:29] move back and forth in the back seat and get shots of both of the

[00:03:33] actors in the front seat. There were so many things that they built

[00:03:38] on the fly to work with that handheld camera that was moving all

[00:03:43] the time and seeing everything all the time. You know you'll hear

[00:03:46] some technical terms like speed rail B roll coupe lights key lights

[00:03:53] just keep rolling and listening and in the context of the

[00:03:56] conversation you should be able to get a really good feel for what it

[00:04:01] was like technically to work on the show and all the things that

[00:04:05] they solved in order to make it work. Yeah. Well thank you very

[00:04:10] much Susan and I hope everybody enjoys this episode and we will

[00:04:13] catch you on the other side. I met you guys probably on a

[00:04:37] John Waters film before homicide but I don't know a whole lot

[00:04:42] about your before that. I know you worked on other John Waters

[00:04:46] films the first John Waters film I worked on with serial mom so I

[00:04:49] know you guys go back to probably cry baby. So give us a

[00:04:53] little and whoever wants to start first is fine. Give us a

[00:04:57] little background. How did you get in the film business and

[00:05:02] how did you end up on homicide was it something you were

[00:05:04] recruited for then had you worked with John or with

[00:05:08] with the first cameraman who was on the first season you know

[00:05:12] sort of sort of bring us up to speed. Sure. My first job and

[00:05:17] was as a projectionist at the Smithsonian and through that I

[00:05:21] met some guys who did live event stuff there. You know they

[00:05:26] would do concerts and what have you and one individual in

[00:05:31] predict particular Bruce Davis who was a lighting director

[00:05:36] at this defunct company called City Lights in Washington DC

[00:05:42] started giving me some part time work you know on the side

[00:05:47] and I eventually decided I like doing that more than running

[00:05:53] a projector and went from there to another lighting house

[00:05:57] that's how I ended up in grip and electric department and

[00:06:01] you know as far as homicide goes I was it was Josh who was

[00:06:06] the original key grip I work he recruited me on to be his best

[00:06:13] boy which I did for the first two seasons and then Josh made

[00:06:18] the miraculous move of going from key grip to gaffer which

[00:06:25] was made news in the grip electric world you know up and

[00:06:29] down the east coast. We'll have to hear about that especially in

[00:06:33] New York it really is something just isn't done and they they Jim

[00:06:37] Fennany who was you know the executive producer and the

[00:06:40] face he ran the whole show. The story was that he had basically

[00:06:44] taken this key grip and made him like somehow made him a

[00:06:46] gaffer and all the New York guys would prove that you

[00:06:49] did all the graph you know all key grips are capable of

[00:06:52] just doing everything which was great so I had instant credit

[00:06:56] in New York guys and Jim of course was elevated more of a

[00:06:59] kingmaker which is pretty funny. There were shockwaves there

[00:07:02] Kingmaker and you know Jim Fennany was a renowned key grip

[00:07:08] you know in his day if you look up his you know his filmography

[00:07:13] it's amazing you know I think his his last film was

[00:07:16] platoon with Oliver Stone and that was that put him over

[00:07:19] the edge he said enough is enough. Yeah he did a lot of

[00:07:22] huge movies. Yeah that's funny I knew that and I forgot that I

[00:07:27] forgot that that's yeah that that's he was a he was a key grip

[00:07:30] and also his son also renowned great too right. My legacy

[00:07:34] yeah in New York. So he took special pride in promoting the

[00:07:39] Crypto part but over the electricians. So did you come on

[00:07:43] season one or two when did you start Joe season one you

[00:07:46] want to one man Josh both started you know from the

[00:07:49] beginning and did the whole the whole run you know. And that was

[00:07:53] a that was of Wayne Ewing we haven't talked about Wayne because

[00:07:56] I didn't work on the first season so maybe we can talk a

[00:07:58] little bit about that later the difference between his style

[00:08:01] and John's or you know. Just Wayne and Barry were the

[00:08:05] Wayne was doing a behind the scenes for some film that

[00:08:08] Barry was doing and Barry really liked Wayne's style of

[00:08:10] work you know behind the scenes just sort of natural

[00:08:13] semi verte and I think that was the genesis of the you

[00:08:16] know the scene was playing it for the concept of homicide

[00:08:18] which was just an ensemble of actors let loose with a

[00:08:22] script and just the camera amongst them and what that

[00:08:25] Wayne was the camera that was sort of the pure form of

[00:08:28] homicide which kind of work kind of didn't it was you know

[00:08:31] again I'm getting ahead of ourselves here but you know

[00:08:35] the conceptually was something never really been

[00:08:37] tried before and something if they didn't really work in

[00:08:39] terms of actually have acres and script and wardrobe and

[00:08:42] lighting and everything and that be completely

[00:08:45] semi-verte completely natural the sort of a tough

[00:08:48] thing and over the years we sort of broke it down and

[00:08:51] kept some of that initial feeling but we get we get a

[00:08:54] little bit more like whatever normal or a little more

[00:08:57] you know standard in terms of the way we shot stuff.

[00:09:03] Cool so so so Josh why don't you give us your

[00:09:07] your background before the kingmaker got to you

[00:09:10] and switched you over to be in the gaffer where'd

[00:09:13] yeah I started out as a production assistant doing

[00:09:16] location work in Washington after high school 1978

[00:09:20] I think was the year and I enjoyed PAing a lot but I

[00:09:25] looked at all the different departments and I like

[00:09:27] camera guys were a little too pretentious sound guys

[00:09:30] were sound guys the and then the grip electrics

[00:09:34] were obviously the cool guys they were like

[00:09:36] they really the nuts and bolts and the hands on

[00:09:40] departments and so I naturally gravitated towards them

[00:09:43] and then I was introduced to Murdoch Campbell it was a

[00:09:46] gaffer in Washington DC who sort of started the DC film

[00:09:50] community and as you famously I was on a job trying to figure

[00:09:54] out what to do and where I fit in and this director famously

[00:09:57] asked him what do I do he said well that's Murdoch he's

[00:10:00] really good do what he does and I pretty much

[00:10:03] have been doing that my whole career I didn't I picked and

[00:10:07] I was I was selective about exactly how to what I followed him

[00:10:10] for certain things I left behind the certain things were good

[00:10:13] but anyway and then Murdoch had started the Washington source

[00:10:16] when Jill Kurtz was working in the Washington source

[00:10:18] I was never really staffed there but I worked out of there a lot and that's

[00:10:21] where I met Joe and then Murdoch was

[00:10:27] the way I got under John Waters movies Murdoch was connected with Dave

[00:10:30] Inslee who was connected to the Baltimore scene

[00:10:32] Murdoch got tapped to be the gaffer on hairspray

[00:10:35] and asked me to be I think Best Boy Electric on hairspray so that's how I

[00:10:39] started the whole John Waters my whole John Waters experience I ended

[00:10:43] up being the gaffer on Cecil B Demented which was an

[00:10:48] interesting water stall but I started out as Best Boy Liquid and I

[00:10:52] think Best Boy was a grip on one of the shows yeah well you guys were both

[00:10:56] on Serial Mom too right Serial Mom yeah and anyway so

[00:11:00] that's where I got my start I started work with Murdoch and it was

[00:11:04] basically the old school like apprenticeship much like Joe where we

[00:11:07] basically discovered this industry just started doing it by and

[00:11:11] learned by you know experience and just by practicing ourselves to other people

[00:11:15] and when I got tapped by John Pacey who was we I worked

[00:11:19] uh commercial with Wayne Ewing at John in Baltimore

[00:11:22] maybe a year before homicide came online and

[00:11:26] Wayne and John were friends and so Wayne asked John to Gaffin since it was

[00:11:29] used local and we're talking about who uses key grip and Lenny who came up

[00:11:33] and I was at that time pretty affable and pleasant so they asked me to come on

[00:11:38] board and do it and which was kind of a big leap for me because obviously it's a

[00:11:43] I had no idea what I was getting into which is probably good because it wasn't

[00:11:46] nervous or anything but and then it being you know seven

[00:11:49] year run of a national television show for a couple of kids from Baltimore

[00:11:53] to suddenly be thrust into the something that big

[00:11:56] it was pretty amazing really that they didn't bring the keys in from out

[00:12:00] town they trusted us to run the thing and that's great I forgot yeah John Pacey

[00:12:04] uh who who was also I worked with him so he must have also been on the second

[00:12:10] um second season yeah he did like the pilot the first

[00:12:13] it was 1994 it's not kind of fuzzy but he did the pilot in the first

[00:12:17] couple of episodes and then he stepped back and we had to do

[00:12:21] stat king for a while and then he stepped back and then

[00:12:26] then I was annoyed by the kingmaker as Jim Finney famously said to me

[00:12:29] in his slight brooklyn act center he said uh he said hey you want to be the gaffer

[00:12:34] and I'm like uh let's see same money twice the stress no thank you because

[00:12:39] let me tell you kid either you gave it I'll bring you someone down from New York

[00:12:43] and he's gonna make your fucking life absolutely miserable

[00:12:46] and I'm like so Jim you're making an offer I can't refuse he's like

[00:12:49] because you got a penalty you make the call and I'm like okay I'll I'll gaff it

[00:12:53] but Jim has a special place in this heart of hatred for gaffers and I said

[00:12:57] I'll do it but you have to promise you're not gonna hate me you said

[00:13:00] I can't promise that and I was like oh he did that

[00:13:06] the Sunday became my reign of terror for a couple you know it's the last five

[00:13:09] seasons or whatever it was where I got the gaffer but it was

[00:13:12] I watched how all the other guys had worked and what they had done and how

[00:13:15] they try to do things and and how it worked and what didn't work you know

[00:13:19] when from the key grip seat you get to observe a lot you know because we're

[00:13:22] basically we are running a set but we're not really there's a lot of

[00:13:25] electrical shins it goes on if we just watch and see what works doesn't work

[00:13:28] and so when I was tapped to do it we kind of revamped the homicide

[00:13:34] squad room but before it was very underlit very like moody and whatever we

[00:13:38] end up putting in big coupe lights and bringing the f-stop the amount of

[00:13:42] light in the room up so you could basically go in if you were in a hurry

[00:13:45] you could use it as a cover set going just kick the lights on you could

[00:13:48] basically shoot and then if we had time we'd make nice we'd add edges

[00:13:51] sometimes eyelets whatever so I had we we basically I thought we stepped the game

[00:13:56] up a little bit man a little bit nicer and we can then we could go back to playing

[00:14:00] cards and I was successful I guess but and and again when I and then the other

[00:14:04] guy stepped up well the gaffer Joe Kurtz had been my best

[00:14:07] boy grip yeah he stepped up to be key grip which was great because he was

[00:14:10] on my side most of the time and it was great new the scene he knew the

[00:14:14] system and none of us there's no anxiety you know like I had

[00:14:17] anxiety going into because the first season I was gaffer

[00:14:20] it was either sink or slam with Jim Finnerty and other people that began my heels but

[00:14:25] fortunately the choices that we made the Joe and I together in terms of you know

[00:14:29] stepping up the game in this in the stage and having more equipment and being

[00:14:32] a little more efficient and running the crew better all paid off and worked

[00:14:35] well and we ended up finishing out the last

[00:14:37] close like five years of that thing yeah we survived yeah and you guys are

[00:14:43] really really I mean my recollections is it really

[00:14:47] both your crews really really worked as a team I mean you sometimes like not

[00:14:51] figure out like who are the electricians and who are the grips because you guys

[00:14:54] were you had to do so much together because we were moving so fast

[00:14:58] and you know you might be holding the b-board and you know somebody else

[00:15:02] comes in with a keynote or you know I mean it was just like this constant

[00:15:06] motion and then of course Joe you guys are always building

[00:15:10] you know you're slamming together speed rail

[00:15:12] you know you're getting the butt dolly out so it was just how many guys did you

[00:15:18] each have how many guys that were on your crews we were pretty you know we were

[00:15:23] limited you know to a strict you know manpower regime or deep I don't know

[00:15:29] probably like five guys total right each was it was a three and three or was it

[00:15:34] four I can't remember yeah it might have been us plus you know yeah a couple so

[00:15:39] he was four key best four plus two I think yeah that's tiny by today's standards you know we're

[00:15:47] like any kind of major television show would have you know they're gonna have 10 guys you know

[00:15:53] on the first year and we did a we did a famous crossover with law and order and the director

[00:15:58] from law and order came down was it I can't remember his name uh the Dick Wolf director was

[00:16:03] he just there was he just there as the producer might have been Dick Wolf came down the

[00:16:07] I remember he came but I'm not sure if he was directing but he was directing we did a scene

[00:16:11] you know the our crew our guys went up there there was their their talent came to Baltimore and

[00:16:15] we did you know a bunch of work women who had a night exterior at the train station in Baltimore

[00:16:20] we did our usual homicide night exterior which was a like a 30 foot gene lift registered

[00:16:26] in the back of a pickup truck with a couple of mold bars on the top of it and me chasing

[00:16:31] the talent around with a four foot a keynote tube on a stick and we got little lights hidden

[00:16:37] hidden here and there and like no real pre-rig crew and no real big setup and we did this whole scene

[00:16:42] of them getting out of the uh the detectives getting out of their cars walking up into the

[00:16:47] train station walking through the train station down onto the tracks talking and getting on the

[00:16:50] train to go to New York and we wrapped we're done and we're all packing up and Dick Wolf

[00:16:55] walked up just started staring at me I go can I help you he goes he goes he comes we'll talk you know

[00:17:02] tomorrow like after dailies and I'm like I'm like let's talk about whatever and he came to me after like

[00:17:07] you know I mean I don't need to self aggrandize but he came to me and said you know I really

[00:17:12] thought you've just used the kind of a whole different rhymes with luck because I really

[00:17:18] thought you had like screwed me because where was the equipment where was the crew

[00:17:23] where was you know in New York we would have like 18 k's up on rooms we'd have big lifts we'd

[00:17:27] have all these people all the stuff he goes I you guys had nothing and it I see in dailies

[00:17:32] everyone's lit everyone has a little edge it looked great he goes how the f***y Baltimore guys do this

[00:17:38] is not how we do it in New York I'm like and welcome to our little weird world we pull this

[00:17:43] stuff off he's shaking his head he's like he was just I he goes I don't get it because they

[00:17:48] the New York system came up through years of like co-jack and huge shows they never really

[00:17:53] downsize it was bigger and bigger and bigger that's how they always did we came down we our show was

[00:17:57] supposed to be totally like dot style like no crew like when Wayne and I first sat down with John

[00:18:03] Basie and talked Wayne's concept was that we would be so like so small like just one little

[00:18:09] small cube fan would pull in like the neighborhood wouldn't even know we were there and the cops

[00:18:13] would get out of the detectives actors would get out of their cars the camera guy would get

[00:18:17] out of the van and we do the scene and then we would cut nobody would just be completely like

[00:18:21] natural and so the idea was we had little teeny trucks we'd I think we had two like little small

[00:18:26] three-ton cubes with like 12 foot boxes which is very unusual shows usually have multiple five

[00:18:32] tons and 10 ton trucks anyway so I remember we Joe and I'm in our first little grip truck we

[00:18:37] had cut all the pipe and speed rail down to like 12 foot sections so it actually fit in the truck

[00:18:42] which was kind of crazy but we did it because that's where it was Wayne's idea and I which I

[00:18:47] and we didn't know any better either so fighting day one we roll into the first location I think it

[00:18:53] was at a Greenwood cemetery Greenlott cemetery in Baltimore and as we're driving in there's

[00:18:59] two three blocks of tractor trailers Starwagon Tony wagons wardrobe trucks I mean this like a

[00:19:05] major motion picture moving there we are a little T this little teeny box truck I go

[00:19:10] what happened to whatever the whole concept is like apparently we were the only ones that got

[00:19:15] the message the rest of them were like in the new star trailer wardrobe needs to have all

[00:19:20] clothes camera department needs to have a big you know five-ton truck but we you know

[00:19:24] the electric we have these two little teeny bands that we're you know it was funny so subsequent

[00:19:29] years we that went away we got the bigger vehicles which makes me so Joe jumped in here

[00:19:34] you know with how the kind of package maybe you started with and how flexible everything

[00:19:41] had to be because you were always in motion yeah I mean that was kind well for one thing

[00:19:47] I don't know this is kind of the first big deal for me so it was yeah the whole

[00:19:53] you were placed inside these this framework where you only had this many guys and you

[00:19:58] couldn't pre-light a lot of times we didn't even scout or if we did it was

[00:20:02] very minimalist so we kind of knew you're gonna show up there and do whatever you could and you know

[00:20:10] an hour or so before the upm came and started glaring at you or or worse so you just

[00:20:19] try not to be the last department ready to shoot you know that was that was the name of the game

[00:20:25] and the you know ad department breathing down your neck the whole time so we just kept it limited

[00:20:32] did you construct the butt dolly was that something that that that you know key grips have in their

[00:20:39] back pocket or is that something that was developed for the show where you had the basically the

[00:20:43] skateboard wheels on either the apple box or on was it on a flat it was on what was it on

[00:20:49] what was the skateboard wheels on it was kind of josh's invention in the whatever first season and

[00:20:55] then you know it was on rails and boxes and you know it was kind of making a little roller coaster

[00:21:02] like I think every day I wish we wish I had some pictures of it anymore it it started it started

[00:21:09] out with uh it started out in the back of the uh the cavaliers right joe yeah we started yeah

[00:21:15] doing that trying to like uh yeah just make it easier for the dp to like move back and forth and

[00:21:22] side to side the deal you know because yeah the concept of the show was the camera was a like

[00:21:27] part of the one of the actors or like the person watching the show is present in the in the show

[00:21:32] so when we talked about putting the camera on a hostess train outside the car looking in like

[00:21:37] 99% of every show in the world's done the kind of way and was like well why would the

[00:21:41] why would there be someone riding out the street outside the car it's got to be in the car

[00:21:44] with the guy so we had jaune in the back seat with his uh with the I guess the aton and he was

[00:21:52] trying to like photograph the guy driving and then the reaction of the other guy so we kept you

[00:21:56] kept trying to lean over and slide his foot on the on the seat really wasn't working he goes I

[00:22:01] need a way to get back and forth so you got a piece of plywood and polyurethane did and I

[00:22:06] recall when I got him some silk boxes which we made him put on which he was not too happy about

[00:22:11] but the silk boxes made him he could slide back and forth so that was pretty good

[00:22:15] and then Danny Baldwin um was observing all this foolishness and he's he said he worked on a

[00:22:21] little budget movie where they had got a racing shell you know there's a racing

[00:22:26] those are seat that's on rails and he said they put the DP on those rails went back and

[00:22:30] forth and that gave him the ability and we thought that was a great idea but we didn't really

[00:22:34] have access to uh any fancy racing shells but we did have this uh there's these roller

[00:22:40] skate wheels that people would put on big t-d's plywood to make slid dollies and we came up with the

[00:22:45] idea it was Joe and I both came up with this 12 by 12 piece of plywood four sets of skateboard

[00:22:50] wheels on the bottom of it and then two rails in the back of the car we pulled the seat out put

[00:22:53] them on these rails and then he could sit on he could roll back and forth and it was great he

[00:22:57] could really you know slide back and forth and do the driver and then swing over and get the

[00:23:02] and then John said you know hey this is great can we use this in the squad room because I

[00:23:06] hate the hard thing is when people are sitting down trying to hand hold but you know eye height low

[00:23:11] it's like if unless you're cradling the camera it's like kills your back and we were like well yeah of

[00:23:15] course so we got a bunch of different speed roll pipe and we put the pipe on the floor the box on the

[00:23:20] on the 12 inch piece of plywood and he would sit on it and just push himself along back and

[00:23:25] forth and it was I was hoping for a slightly more you know nicer name but it became the

[00:23:30] butt dolly and it's become a industry standard and I guess we like Joe and I could take credit for

[00:23:37] inventing it I guess as many things get invented and no one gets credit for it but I think we work

[00:23:44] but I was reading some some interview with some other director of some show who was saying

[00:23:49] oh this set and the other and he goes in there for going hand over to store in our butt dolly

[00:23:52] and just keep going and I was like there it is the butt dolly it lives that was an example of

[00:24:00] trying to like this handed this interesting different style of shooting and then having

[00:24:05] come up with solutions that were like the whole like most shows you go in and there's like two

[00:24:10] people sitting at a table and you sit and light it from wherever do the two people sit in and

[00:24:14] you do overs and then cut and then do reset the overs and overs our show the camera we go

[00:24:19] everywhere we go 360 which was difficult to maintain interesting back like everyone likes

[00:24:25] light from behind or edgy and nice ratios but if you're seeing 360 it becomes really complicated

[00:24:31] so how do we go into a house and get lights into places where we can't even stand so you know we're

[00:24:36] clipping lights to like to the ceiling lights for radiators we're putting make believe pipes

[00:24:40] for radiators we're booming things in it was it was every day was a bit of it was a challenge

[00:24:47] you know how long did you have to sort of light situations because I think when I spoke to

[00:24:52] Jean a while back he was saying there's kind of like a rule of like everything needs to be

[00:24:55] lift about 25 minutes or something I mean how's that work I would ask me how long I would say

[00:25:00] 15 minutes about three or four times that's a good trick I've used that if the one time I said

[00:25:09] 45 minutes a PA ran up to the radio and said Jim wants to talk to you this Jim very good

[00:25:14] came back and I go hey Jim he goes he goes ready to get in your car I'm like uh

[00:25:22] he goes get you know get a move on get a move on I'm like yes sir so I learned uh oh we say 15

[00:25:27] and no one gets 12 because everyone knows that you know whatever you found so much better yeah yeah

[00:25:32] unofficial 45 yeah well yeah no one wants to get 45 but the other thing I realized was if lighting

[00:25:37] in grip heaven writing 15 there's wardrobe there's props there's sound there's all these other

[00:25:42] departments that they're out written 15 odd we're just the highest profile we're the ones

[00:25:46] sweating it out in front of everyone doing our thing most of the stuff is sort of

[00:25:49] inappropriate and everyone kind of relies on us taking time to get things ready so they also have

[00:25:55] time to prep their departments which sort of kind of works yeah and we really by and large we really

[00:26:00] made our days I mean we did a 99 percent of the time we did 12 hour days we did really and the

[00:26:06] grip equipment you made for the show this wasn't stuff you had to make like on the day I'm assuming

[00:26:10] it's all pre-made was it after experience of of doing episodes and things yeah exactly it was

[00:26:16] evolving there you know it was ever evolving started out like that and then slowly how it did

[00:26:23] turn into like I mean we did some long like we would make tracks through the through the uh

[00:26:33] the squad room and the stage and we had curved pipes bent and we made a 360 track and you know

[00:26:42] you know it just turned into its own yeah became a its own little entity so quite a challenge just

[00:26:49] lugging all that stuff around yeah you know but it was a big part of the show just yeah figuring

[00:26:55] out how to get the camera moving with uh no dolly which was prohibited yeah was there there

[00:27:02] was never a there was never a dolly was there on the set ever there was not the cameras

[00:27:07] the cameras handheld the entire time the only time it was on sticks was when they shot inserts of

[00:27:12] the big board or some right in the board otherwise it was always on someone's shoulder it was always

[00:27:17] always moving or beauty shots if somebody went out and did b-roll yeah yeah it was it was great to

[00:27:22] the actors because it freed them from things like marks and and like you know hitting specific

[00:27:28] marks and being you know being aware where the camera was and opening up because the camera

[00:27:32] would just be on them or sometimes it'd be on them while they were talking another I get

[00:27:36] one time I saw John go off the actor was talking and I'm like how can we hand off you know Bells

[00:27:41] or when he's talking he goes he's like because a lot of times it's more interesting to see the reaction

[00:27:45] of the person listening than it is to see Bells with mouth moving and I'm like okay and John was

[00:27:51] really a genius he came from a dot background he was really intuitive and really good composition

[00:27:57] and just you know the aton you could sort of look uh like most camera the the um airflex

[00:28:03] sr it has a big piece of steel here tk but the aton comes down so there's non-shooting on you

[00:28:09] could look and see what was going on around so we'd always be aware of what was worth grabbing where

[00:28:14] to like swing over he would just like he would just suddenly like the acs had their job hand you

[00:28:19] know their job was kind of tough because the focus was constantly who do you want to be in focus

[00:28:24] you know they have this little sign language at one two three and trying to figure out where

[00:28:28] to really focus it was really it was a really it really became kind of a dance after a while between

[00:28:35] the you know the camera the capo and focus the the Lorenzo whoever on the boom if I was if it was

[00:28:41] a night scene I usually had this light on a pole that I would try to hang in to try to um key or

[00:28:47] or some of the actors or use it as an edge for someone else and just float it around to try

[00:28:52] to like get stuff in because if you let the whole scene overall which would be like easier

[00:28:56] it would just be kind of flat and interesting so we always tried to have the lights every

[00:29:00] at all possible mobile so we could move around with the actors and try to keep things

[00:29:06] interesting yeah exactly yeah I was thinking I was thinking when John was talking about

[00:29:11] about you having the Chinese lantern on a fish pole when we were doing night

[00:29:14] exteriors and you know I remembered Lorenzo and any of the boom operators just just

[00:29:20] trying like hell to keep up with everything and stay out of this shot and then I thought

[00:29:24] geez yeah and then we had you know and then we had Josh with a with a with a boom pole with a light

[00:29:30] on the end of it in addition to the to the sound you know the boom operator with a with a mic so

[00:29:37] yeah crazy yeah Lorenzo and I recalled it jousting because I had to see where he was I just

[00:29:42] thinking under him sometimes our poles would cross and he needed to swing over to catch some

[00:29:46] of dialogue I'd have to I mean it was really there wasn't any music but there was it definitely

[00:29:51] was dance definitely what are any techniques used to kind of keep up with the choreography of the actors

[00:30:00] and their performance with the camera moves at all were there any kind of particular things

[00:30:04] that you guys had to do kind of like what Josh said you know he's you know just you had to be

[00:30:09] had to have stuff fluid on the fly you know figure out how like you'd watch a rehearsal

[00:30:15] and get a sort of an idea for where people were going to be and like who would go to the

[00:30:19] window who would be here who'd be there and like you know some actors are need a little more help

[00:30:23] with lights than others so if we saw that going on we would while they went off to make up or get ready

[00:30:28] while we had our three or four uh 15 minute increment sections we would like what we could but then

[00:30:35] invariably when they came back in they would react differently to each other for whatever

[00:30:39] reason the camera actively and their uh and their blocking would change they'd be in different

[00:30:43] places so it had I would always have to be glued to the monitor or try to and try to keep see

[00:30:49] what was going on and then between uh we would cut while we're resetting like relighting the film or

[00:30:54] whatever you know Joe or myself had run into tweak stuff to try to change it to optimize

[00:30:59] a lot of the other issue big issue was boom shadows because you know not only lighting

[00:31:04] for the actors you're lighting for the sound department as well because even though it's highly

[00:31:08] irritating you figure you know some light bulb is stronger boom shadow it is because I'm putting

[00:31:12] a light up and I have to be if I do put a light up it has Joe's got to cut it off the back

[00:31:17] off the wall or wherever shadow may come from so you know if you're when you're swinging a

[00:31:22] big boom pull around there's just unlimited amounts of shadows that be cast if you're if

[00:31:26] for every light that you set so it's every light we put up you had to also think how's this going

[00:31:30] affect the other department you know so it's got it yeah yeah was there a lot of top lighting

[00:31:35] because I don't when I think of homicide I don't really think of it as a top lit show but was

[00:31:38] that the way you kind of came around it or well if it had been up to me it would have been

[00:31:42] completely top like a lot of the old New York shows with these trip lights they're the 66 like

[00:31:46] groups these huge thousand watt incandescent bulbs they don't use them anymore I'm sure it's all

[00:31:51] they'll be now but and if you could you could light it from the top super soft or from the top

[00:31:56] it's super bright so you have a lot of depth of field and everything you can basically shoot

[00:32:02] your shoot but then it looks like Barney Miller or Kojak because it really kind of looks flat

[00:32:06] and a new thing but again it's really it's really quick and it's forgiving and it works

[00:32:11] but all the DPs that to work with especially Alex Zakshevsky and our second DP they wanted

[00:32:19] things edgier and darker and more interesting I used to joke that the more syllables the DP had

[00:32:24] his last name was the higher ratio is that he liked his lighting Zakshevsky there's nothing

[00:32:29] three-stop ratio between Keysight, Filsoid or he didn't even like to keep people from the front

[00:32:33] he liked to keep them behind leave the face almost total darkness and then and keep sort of

[00:32:38] back and make it edgy which is a lot of if you look at films a lot of really really pretty films

[00:32:43] there no one is in a key light that's at at at the exposure the camera set at they usually the

[00:32:49] face is down to three stops and there's the like behind or from about soft something it's just but

[00:32:54] that style of lighting just takes more discipline it takes more time and more

[00:32:58] normal camera stuff so because I when you're you have an edge light and you come around

[00:33:03] behind that edge light becomes front light so it was sort of like a real that was something we worked

[00:33:09] into the later episodes with Alex he really wanted lots of hot backlight and edges

[00:33:15] so we worked out a plan where he would try to stand one side and not come around not do 360s

[00:33:21] because I mean there's a 360 really worth it maybe there's maybe isn't but if you

[00:33:25] stand one side and then do some coverage on the other side we get a chance to turn

[00:33:28] these lights off turn the lights on then you can maintain that sort of cool back edgy kind of thing

[00:33:35] another can of worms because Alex was not terribly tall so and some more actors were like over six

[00:33:40] feet so he ended up looking up at them a little bit and you're looking up on the set that has

[00:33:45] you know real real ceilings you see the lights so it's like it was I wouldn't say headache

[00:33:52] because it's it was a constant challenge to sort of get the lights up out of the way I get

[00:33:56] the edge you know whatever it was yeah when did I'm building this camera on her shoulder up about

[00:34:00] six eight inches yeah and even giving them a um extent extended eyepiece uh so we got the camera

[00:34:06] up you know a little higher which was which helps no one made in platform shoes as that

[00:34:11] affiliate fall into the grip department doesn't it is not a great idea why didn't we think of

[00:34:16] that that's the story of my life yeah I mean I have a picture from American cinematographer

[00:34:23] that sort of shows uh like the combination obviously this is a static shot in the box

[00:34:28] but it shows on the box the coupe light above and then you guys with your little handheld you and

[00:34:34] Brian no way with a little like you know 12 by 12 bounce boards and a little is there a soft

[00:34:40] lighter just get some light and move bouncing towards the end yeah yeah it's a great picture

[00:34:44] that's a great shot of of like a combination of all this stuff because obviously on the

[00:34:48] moving shots you'd have those little bounce boards running around too like and you said like

[00:34:53] as well as the the the keynote on the boom pole yeah that brings back memories how did you not make

[00:34:59] noise doing all that too because sound people hate anybody doing anything I mean like what was

[00:35:04] going on maybe especially uh our side got we don't wear we wore cotton trousers exclusively

[00:35:11] you know no synthetics and sneakers and we uh we were just careful like in the squad room

[00:35:17] was targeted so it wasn't too hard but there were there were many many mishaps of people tripping

[00:35:22] over each other I mean that was a daily occurrence and just trying to get out of each other's way

[00:35:26] well it was and also I mean the whole concept especially the squad room we really could see 360

[00:35:31] because we were top soft lit and and generally we're able to shoot there without any additional

[00:35:36] lighting you know except some little bounce guard or something for the eyes the camera could

[00:35:40] do anything at any time so basically when we're rolling you know everyone had to hide

[00:35:44] nobody everyone had to be on the other side of the wall looking at a monitor no one could really be on

[00:35:47] set and the same thing day exterior which was wonderful because we never really lit the day

[00:35:54] exterior ever I don't think except for like a four by four piece of B4 or maybe a traveling six

[00:36:00] by ultra bounce or something it was basically very sort of uh a gimmie in terms of that which

[00:36:06] which was good because it gave us time to go and pre-likes the next set so that we would have

[00:36:10] as we move from the day exterior and downtown bold towards the day night interior bar we have

[00:36:15] the bar pre-lit or whatever but um but again those in terms like when we park the crew vehicles

[00:36:20] we see 360 that was just the roll like it would see anywhere anytime so it's just it was that was

[00:36:25] complicated where do you put video village where is the director going to have a floating little

[00:36:31] monitor battery power I think that transmitter that we have transmitters back then or was it

[00:36:35] yes transmitter yes yep so the director would just be behind camera you know trying to stay behind

[00:36:43] them to stay on the shot we had transmitters the early days yeah I guess yeah Alex was back there

[00:36:48] oh I want that sleeping video village so Joe jump in there what were you gonna say I was gonna say

[00:36:53] yeah I was in charge of pre-lighting the bar sets with the grip crew that was our our specialty

[00:37:00] by Josh was holding the bead board we would go ahead and pre-light the water front for six hours

[00:37:07] and then I then I don't have to try to find all the grips afterwards but anyways

[00:37:14] so yeah they'll get the bar so question about that because I've been rewatching all the episodes

[00:37:20] and um and the squad room especially is really beautiful colorful and Chris and I were talking

[00:37:28] about this earlier and with Jean where where the background was starting to drop off did you did you

[00:37:34] use like higher intensity lights in the practicals that were on the desks what because it didn't

[00:37:39] look like Chris just said it didn't look like a toplet show obviously it you know the night

[00:37:45] interiors or even the day interiors you had practicals you could use but it had a it had

[00:37:51] a color and a depth that that belies the fact that a lot of it was lit from above so what you know

[00:38:00] what were you doing well part part of it was Vince Perrano um as as we made the top lights brighter

[00:38:09] we initially put six bulbs in each coob light and we turned it on and it was so bright it was

[00:38:13] scary it's like I think at 200 a.s.a. we were like rocking in like a five six eight or something

[00:38:17] which was crazy so we turned them off I think we ended up with like maybe three bulbs in each coob

[00:38:22] so we brought the top light down and then because the coob lights tend to light the walls up Vince

[00:38:26] was nice enough he had already made the walls kind of a darker color but he aged the walls down

[00:38:30] he sprayed them down so the walls made he made the walls darker with paint and and this way the

[00:38:35] squad room was laid out there were so many like nooks and crannies and angles and stuff that

[00:38:38] sort of lent itself to looking nice and then we had those big windows that opened up on the

[00:38:43] same street that we would when it was daytime the windows would be up and we had 10 k's right above

[00:38:48] the windows shooting some nice hard light pushing into the squad room so especially we had uh

[00:38:54] I remember very narrow spot mole bars snuck in different corners and places just throwing

[00:38:59] hot splashes like so that you know the actors in the foreground doing their thing

[00:39:03] and then extras walking by and as an extra walk past where these windows were

[00:39:07] they just had a screaming hot edge from a mole bar which was just you know eight amps and

[00:39:12] you know a lot of things for your buck expensive and reliable and uh literally a real

[00:39:17] side kind of feel to it you know that made a difference yeah being in a real building

[00:39:21] helped a lot too you know just that was uh wasn't a studio really it was kind of uh

[00:39:27] it was a real space that we kind of retrofitted so had all the you know history built in a

[00:39:35] little bit because the set design was you know often people say how do you make it look

[00:39:39] so nice it's like it's really come set design is huge because the way it's dressed and the way it's

[00:39:46] laid out is if you have something nice to bounce light off of it you know whatever a white wall

[00:39:50] is a white wall but you start getting the colors and all the desks filled with stuff and

[00:39:54] I don't think we changed any of them we used slightly brighter bulbs in some of the desks

[00:39:58] lamps that we could get get a whole lot but I don't think we really did anything crazy bright

[00:40:02] was mostly and then Alex has other concepts the final of the last two seasons we put in

[00:40:08] fluorescent lights which you can see in the shots and some of the later episodes

[00:40:12] because he wanted to have this feel of like the whatever disappearing lines over it

[00:40:19] so that was that was another layer up there which made it like I thought it looked really good too

[00:40:23] I like the fluorescent look it looked rare like authentic which is good yeah did they

[00:40:28] change the paint color of the squad room in season six and seven I vaguely remember

[00:40:32] yeah it figured into the episode that they had redesigned or re yeah and they repainted

[00:40:39] yeah I don't know if that was in five between five and six somewhere in there yeah so there's a

[00:40:44] thing in the movie about cerulean blue who is there is a Hamilton's talking about the paint

[00:40:53] well I mean one of the really coolest thing Mike one of my biggest takeaways for me and

[00:40:57] work you know again being for kid from DC Baltimore something thrust into working

[00:41:00] the show is they working with all this great these talented technical people and also the actors

[00:41:06] were all wonderful and just amazing putting up with us in our quirky you know but Baltimore ways

[00:41:11] that's the way you still do and then the other thing was the kind of revolving cast so about

[00:41:16] directors that came in I think we had 56 or 57 different directors and it's like it's a it's

[00:41:22] a who's who it's like Ken Fink Allen Taylor Nick Gomez Barry Levinson John McNaughton

[00:41:27] Leslie and Larry Lieberman Barbara Koppel Catherine Bigelow Runa Kirby Steve Dushemi

[00:41:32] always like A-list really fucking great really awesome directors that came into our little world

[00:41:38] and we got to spend you know a couple of nights scouting with them and you know them and then

[00:41:42] spent five days working close really close to them and it was really just mind mind blowing just

[00:41:47] to hang out and be exposed to how you know to see what they brought to the family to see what

[00:41:53] they sort of brought you know with that show like that that's running for you know seven seasons

[00:41:58] the directors it's what they bring to the game is a little subtle because the actors know what

[00:42:03] they're doing that it's not there like they're you're gonna get them to like be different or

[00:42:07] anything so they just have little nuances they bring to and then and really these great directors

[00:42:12] were able to come in know what's going on it sort of push things in a different direction and

[00:42:17] put their impart their their their sort of vibe on it or their their feel you know that was just

[00:42:23] fun to walk yeah and it occurs to me too the um the secondary actors who weren't anybody or much

[00:42:29] of anybody at the time like Isaiah Washington was in one episode and um Chris Rock was in an episode

[00:42:39] yeah and he's they were we were I don't know if we were in the box or somewhere else and he

[00:42:45] looked up in me he said what are you doing here working on a thing in Baltimore and he was just

[00:42:49] really funny and then and we were talking about um uh Bob Gunn earlier and Jake Gyllenhaal who played

[00:42:56] the kid who who was like 12 which I didn't realize when I went back and looked at I was like what do

[00:43:01] you mean Jake Gyllenhaal's in this and I realized he's one of the kids in that episode

[00:43:08] so yeah it was a show with Lily Tomlin yes right yeah I mean I mean all these great

[00:43:15] I mean and spending all this quality time with Ned Beatty well I mean it was classical I mean

[00:43:20] the most down to earth like most natural like normal guy in the whole planet who just happens

[00:43:25] to be an actor he was just great to see but he was interesting Clark Johnson obviously Andre

[00:43:32] Melissa Leo even though it was it was really an opportunity I didn't realize at that time

[00:43:37] but they say you know one of the rules in the grip departments don't peak too early

[00:43:41] but I think homicide was I definitely peaked on that show it's never been I mean I had a great career

[00:43:48] since doing small commercials and everything but that really was I mean 94 2000 where it was really

[00:43:54] was the peak of my career in age 30 you know I started the show single and living in an

[00:43:59] apartment in DC in Baltimore and I finished the show married with one child and a house

[00:44:04] of Bethesda and it was like sort of that was like the apex of my career really was and

[00:44:09] I mean it's not that after that it's all been terrible in fact it's all getting a lot easier

[00:44:13] it really was we all were really kind of peaking at the time and I wasn't even didn't even realize

[00:44:18] it just seemed it was just a job not me Josh I've yet to peak you have yet to peak

[00:44:23] I'm not peaked yet that's interesting that you say that yeah because Joe do you feel that way

[00:44:29] too that it was one of the highlights of your career yeah but it was a great uh yeah it was

[00:44:34] a great experience either you know didn't know it really at the time how you know how special it was

[00:44:41] after that you thought every job was going to be like that and uh you know they weren't you know

[00:44:48] it was uh it was a great experience everybody kind of lived in the neighborhood you know all the

[00:44:53] actors and you know producers and writers and you know so much crew was local the you just

[00:45:02] don't have that anymore where like everybody is from the town you know everybody you know

[00:45:09] experienced it in the same way yeah John mentioned that that how much of us were all from we were

[00:45:15] from there we were all from Baltimore we were all close by we weren't we know commuting in for an

[00:45:20] hour and a half and uh and he said to he said too that it was the best experience of his career

[00:45:26] and uh in in emailing people back and forth also Frank Farrow who I contacted who was assistant

[00:45:33] director Chris also said the best experience of his career it just was one of those watershed

[00:45:40] moments where everybody that came to it sort of came to it with a certain kind of energy I think

[00:45:47] and then then the just the way the show was um like it fed on that like we were all having a good

[00:45:56] time but the show's you know sort of inspired that in its creativity and its fast pace

[00:46:04] and its edginess I think just really you know it fed on each other sort of yeah it was well run

[00:46:11] and you know yeah experimental nature of it was uh ground giving reversers groundbreaking it really

[00:46:18] kind of was it was one of the first I think shows to be like all hand out 16 and just very like breaking

[00:46:23] a lot of like the normal rules the fourth wall stuff kind of you know it really was kind of well

[00:46:28] and you know just the fact that they kept like the working days like at 12 hours you know pretty

[00:46:34] strict you know very I don't know a handful of times we went over 12 hours you know and

[00:46:42] which seemed like seemed like a lot back then but by today's standards you know it's uh you know

[00:46:49] that's like the minimum now and you know not uncommon for people to have 15 or

[00:46:56] you know 18 hour working days now in this business you know

[00:47:01] you know a lot of shows are doing 14 16 hours like oh god all night Friday our night shoots would be

[00:47:07] you know from dusk for about two three hours and we'd be done it was never a never a massively

[00:47:13] complicated I mean you know one of the only times we went along was with Catherine Bigelow

[00:47:19] she's you know her locker yeah the show about the yeah footlocker her locker yeah

[00:47:26] she we had a big shootout scene in the squad room and we all expected to be you know we call

[00:47:31] time to 7 a.m. at 7 p.m. I was thinking it'd be headed home and I think we ended up going to

[00:47:35] like 10 or 11 o'clock that night because when you're working with squibs in the company again

[00:47:39] again again that went long that was highly usual but it was you know for a reason and our

[00:47:45] Jim Fennedy who never letting me go over 12 understood that he had actually budgeted for

[00:47:50] and he was like it's fine yeah you gotta get you gotta get this is just doing so good

[00:47:54] I was I was wondering that a lot of directors had to realize is that in pre-production they were told

[00:48:00] you have 12 hours at 7 if 12 hours after call time we're wrapped because we need the crew

[00:48:05] it's not a money thing so much as that we're doing nine months of the show and we can't

[00:48:10] burn out the crew everyone has to get sleep everyone has to get off you know whatever

[00:48:14] and the directors would you know start the day out kind of like not languidly but sort of

[00:48:18] chill you know plodding along and then the last four hours they'd be like in a dead run to get

[00:48:24] what they had to get and they would always try to push it a little bit but at the 12 hour mark if

[00:48:29] they weren't wrapping up they're literally just close to Lincoln right show up in this blue Lincoln

[00:48:34] driven by Ford Wilgus our awesome teacher captain who was the guy that Danny DeVito did

[00:48:41] 10 men he spent a week with uh Ford Wilgus to to to bive him out and that's how he based his

[00:48:46] character I turned that was a 10 man really anyway Danny DeVito used for well Ford Wilgus as his muse

[00:48:53] that's who Ford anyway Ford would drive Jimmy to set and we'd be all sitting there i'm going like any

[00:48:58] minute now that blue Lincoln's gonna turn the corner and sure enough he's blue Lincoln turn the

[00:49:02] corner come to the stop and Jimmy would you know like tick tock tick tock only things moving

[00:49:08] is the clock go along let's get out have a conscience we're done and the director be like i need one

[00:49:13] more shot and you go turn off the generator and the director be like what are you doing this

[00:49:17] more shut Jimmy goes hey i told you 12 hours i mean in plain english you're done we're up we're done

[00:49:23] and the director be like you know going thinking obviously i'm the director i have a juice like

[00:49:27] a divinity i'm a conscience again you're out go bye bye yeah okay it was just the greatest thing

[00:49:33] we all just go yeah okay wait it was great some great because you know ultimately he had our backs

[00:49:39] at which was yeah that was and we all felt that we were protected by him in terms of that you know

[00:49:45] we're gonna have some director come in and beat us to death and run super late but Jim was gonna be

[00:49:50] gonna shut it down it was good there's a funny combination between being terrified of him and

[00:49:56] also appreciating that he would pull the plug for us you know true go ahead Chris i just asked

[00:50:02] just how many setups you guys had to do because we heard earlier i think it was like seven pages

[00:50:07] of dialogue a day or something like that or even more yeah it was a slow day

[00:50:14] we even heard there was like 16 at one point yeah i think average was i mean i don't know if this is

[00:50:19] factual but i would recall the average of being 10 to 12 pages of dialogue a day which but a lot of

[00:50:24] that wasn't like big resets and big massive scenes it was just dialogue dialogue like in the squad

[00:50:29] or something but a lot from the actors threw on a lot for you know but it depended on also

[00:50:35] on company moves and the production and the ad's and jimmy were they're very savvy in terms of

[00:50:40] what we could actually physically accomplish in a day like if they came in with a script that had a huge

[00:50:44] net exterior jimmy would look at it go you would take his pen and would say exterior you just scratch

[00:50:50] it out and write uh day exterior and the writer would be like no it's gotta work at night and jim

[00:50:56] goes the hell it does he said there's no way we're shooting on the water at night yeah the

[00:51:01] yeah this is a day experience you know it wasn't like take it or even it was like take it you know

[00:51:05] and it was like the was yes you know a firm hand on the tiller as it were really really kept kept

[00:51:11] kept above here in the right direction and it was feared but but respected as well you know he was

[00:51:17] very very tough on people that he felt were not being forthcoming or honest and he also

[00:51:23] supremely loyal to people he felt have his back he really was unless you're the gaffer

[00:51:28] yeah if you were if you were working hard and doing a good job he was he he let you know he

[00:51:35] appreciated it yeah absolutely whether um so just talking sort of more widely whether any

[00:51:43] episodes stories or sort of incidents during filming that sort of stand out for you

[00:51:50] we dive by the great Ned Beatty uh in braga will have i'm using for

[00:51:56] no i don't get into too much what's the great poop all is that what you mean throwing

[00:51:59] the mustard jar let's just say there's a lot of passion a lot of passion on the set like Nick Gomez and

[00:52:05] Nick Gomez and Yasakoto uh got into it one time there was you know a lot of oh i don't remember

[00:52:11] that i remember ken fink and uh wasn't it ken fink with Ned Beatty in the bar at the doodas

[00:52:18] and a great a jar of great poop all flying across the bar and it was like okay take 10 minutes

[00:52:24] right yeah we actually all got to go home early that day because it was again it was it's it's

[00:52:30] passion you know everyone has this passion for you know where is it very goldwater famously said

[00:52:37] extremism and the pursuit of perfection there's no vice brutally paraphrased goldwater

[00:52:42] it's true i mean that's the whole thing about everyone comes in really you know wanting

[00:52:47] to do the best the directors they act on everything and if the director feels like the

[00:52:51] actor is not picking up the cup of coffee on the right cue he'll tell them but then the actors

[00:52:55] guy knows what he's doing who's this punk kid telling me when to pick up my coffee and they

[00:53:00] and then it becomes it escalates and again it just boils over because everybody and it's because

[00:53:04] people care no one cared as you saw him pick it up coffee whenever you want me to i don't care

[00:53:07] yeah i'm just here for the big check nobody on that show was there well we were all there for

[00:53:11] the big check but beyond the page that we're also there just to create this crazy eccentric

[00:53:18] different you know free flowing yeah show definitely no it shows i mean i'd

[00:53:24] joe i don't know if you have any sort of memories or anything to stand out for you

[00:53:28] yeah gee this is such a long time ago but i don't know the story i always tell was like my the very

[00:53:35] first day of like the very first season i was like still whatever i'm like a 20 something

[00:53:43] fresh faced kid or whatever working in the truck and jim finnerty who's the

[00:53:49] oh it's no no secret enjoyed a drink or two in his time old school new yorker but he comes on the

[00:53:56] grip truck and i was already scared of him and he goes you got alcohol on this truck

[00:54:03] so i was like i said i swear sir there isn't no alcohol in this truck and he gets out

[00:54:09] his wallet gives me like 200 and goes go get go get something for yourself and you know

[00:54:15] give me some vodka while you're out there you know i was like okay that's how it's gonna be

[00:54:23] i uh he popped on the truck one day and we in the grip truck we did keep a ball of

[00:54:28] smirnoff and uh yeah up on truck one day and he goes where's the bottle like what well so we all had

[00:54:37] a celebratory this is halfway through like the day and halfway through kind of an afternoon

[00:54:41] night shoot and we all had a glass of vodka which i never do at work i just it takes my you know

[00:54:46] yeah it takes my edge away with the little edge i have and i got back on set and john's like where were

[00:54:52] you like oh i was you know and he goes have you been drinking i'm like john i had to

[00:54:58] it was like you know and he goes what i go right jim fendery says it it was a it was a different

[00:55:06] time back then you know in the 90s you know post 80s it was wasn't uncommon at all to have

[00:55:13] whatever yeah martini lunch and you know take something to take the edge off yeah yeah yeah it's

[00:55:20] here it's gotten a little you know legally prohibited but you know it's changed here a lot

[00:55:27] back then it was much more you know or part of the day it still happens in the definitely

[00:55:32] in certain areas what was i watching i guess it was sniper again watching us hanging cameras off the

[00:55:40] roofs of a building because we were shooting straight down can you talk sometimes about those

[00:55:46] kinds of things where you're sort of don't like i don't like you don't have equipment for like

[00:55:50] hanging the camera over the side of a building you know somebody just like laying on the sticks

[00:55:56] or dropping you know 100 pounds of sandbags on the end of the stick so the camera can literally be

[00:56:03] you know literally off the side of the building yeah we we improved we had to improvise a lot because

[00:56:09] you know i mean part of it was we're just i don't know it's all local i didn't have a lot of

[00:56:14] you know outside influence about how those things were going to be done and also you know

[00:56:20] weren't going to get any extra equipment and weren't going to give us a crane or anything so

[00:56:26] you may do we did you know i remember i remember josh when you know john wanted to we had that huge

[00:56:34] like you know giant two-story staircase in the stage and they played a lot of scenes in there

[00:56:43] and we would you know john would walk up backwards you know to following the actors

[00:56:49] up the steps and trip and fall down or whatever multiple times so we made like a we got to just

[00:56:56] got a chair out of the office and tied some poles on it we made like a yes i forgot that yeah

[00:57:04] oh yeah a sedan chair homemade have four guys that's right okay luckily he wasn't uh one of your you

[00:57:13] know larger dps so it was it was uh manageable but yeah is that how you guys did it uh yeah

[00:57:21] because those stair scenes are quite smooth so how did that thing work because it was just

[00:57:25] it was on poles it was just being what pulled down or something it was just a chair with like

[00:57:29] four poles tied onto the legs so it was too it was through the through the side of the yeah

[00:57:35] i wasn't put through the arms or was it through the legs yeah crossways yeah yeah yeah so there'd

[00:57:41] be four guys and no no steady cam yeah this is before the day of there was a camera on which you

[00:57:47] never used but before the day of movies or you know osmosal small cameras this was all the same

[00:57:52] camera all hand held no no special fancy rigs because they look good those stair shots

[00:57:57] considering it's supposed to be hand held we asked john this earlier like with some of the technology

[00:58:01] around today if homicide the next generation was to be made um not with patrick stewart but you know

[00:58:07] what kind of technology would you um do you think you might use that might be a bit different to

[00:58:12] what you used back then yeah i can't imagine what it would look like today well lighting wise it

[00:58:18] would certainly be a little we the most cutting edge lamp we had back then were keel flows which

[00:58:23] were great but the output was a bit limited that and the other huge thing is the speed of the you

[00:58:28] know the asa of the film we're using i think we generally ran it 200 asa soon and then the night

[00:58:34] stuff was probably 400 or something yeah and then apparently according to the international

[00:58:39] cinematographer uh story um switched to something that we used 72 79 for interiors

[00:58:47] and night exterior so um initially it was if 72 93 with 400 asa indoors and 200 outdoors

[00:58:58] but i don't know if the if if the up the different film was more forgiving most cameras these days

[00:59:03] the native asa is is starts at 800 and quickly goes up we were shooting yesterday though in

[00:59:09] ohio doing interiors we were cranking at 1600 the new the new um airy 35 and it looks absolutely

[00:59:16] beautiful so like the concept it almost may be easier now to do homicide with these cameras that

[00:59:22] have like insane latitude you know they have 12 stops not usable but 12 stops of latitude

[00:59:27] and insanely fast chips because you really don't need to light at all you almost don't

[00:59:31] need to control windows you i mean it's phenomenal we're working when well film stock that

[00:59:36] if you didn't light it the the darks would just go purpley and gross they'd be gray

[00:59:41] and it was that was the end we had these keynotes which at 200 or 320 asa you can get maybe a two

[00:59:47] eight out of them on a good day at about five feet you couldn't make them brighter you couldn't

[00:59:51] change the color these days with um a stereo tubes or the brighter leds or the new apertures

[00:59:56] are coming out you have full control over the crazy brightness color temperature also dimmer cues

[01:00:02] are much or seamless now everything's controlled off ipads we had like old school dimmer board with

[01:00:07] like an old crt monitor in a background which we never really used because a we couldn't figure it out

[01:00:12] b it was just too complicated to try to do cues when everything's changing constantly you have to

[01:00:17] do cues when you know exactly abc i don't remember that thing it was huge and for that whole 360

[01:00:22] stuff if you had leds and you had an ipad right behind the camera and you could be stupid

[01:00:26] sliders you could then control where the lights with the lights were done we just didn't have

[01:00:31] technology didn't have the right one yeah joe would you do anything differently because you

[01:00:35] you were gonna say something uh yeah i don't know i don't know if you could make that show again

[01:00:39] today you know it would be uh i don't know if the uh just from what i've seen people don't know

[01:00:46] how to work in that kind of you know framework anymore you know even stuff that's supposed

[01:00:52] to be kind of when they're this is everything's bigger now there's you know there's no fancy

[01:00:58] tech that make your life easier or anything oh i mean they would yeah of course they would do everything

[01:01:03] whatever steady they'd have a steady cam and well he's he'd already he'd already invented all the

[01:01:09] fancy stuff for the show you know we'd use the same i'm sure he'd still use a button

[01:01:12] up yeah exactly you know the most rise button exactly yeah right yeah and i think would it would

[01:01:21] it be hard to get the same feel because because if the digital cameras are so perfect you wouldn't

[01:01:27] have the sort of verite feel anymore with a digital camera that makes everything beautiful right yeah

[01:01:36] that's true the look would be different yeah and that part of it was the gritty aspect and some

[01:01:43] certainly i mean i was flying by the seat of my pants trying to like this stuff you know i

[01:01:48] hadn't done a lot of episodic like tv drama stuff before so i was really figuring out as i went

[01:01:54] along and i made some mistakes and a lot of stuff was underexposed and a lot of stuff was you know

[01:01:59] some of that lent itself to the final product it's great this was happy errors i guess but you wouldn't

[01:02:05] get that with the modern cameras because they're so incredibly forgiving and we were talking we were

[01:02:09] talking to earlier with john about um i mentioned that i think even today a lot of shows don't do

[01:02:17] a very good job of lighting actors with different skin tones and and when you go back and look

[01:02:22] at homicide with the incredibly diverse cast we had and not just diverse people but diverse skin tones

[01:02:30] that it looks great i mean it doesn't look like i mean i watch shows still today where i think that

[01:02:36] cameraman or that gaffer didn't know how to light dark skin um and and you don't see that on this

[01:02:42] show and you guys did a great job even with all that all those trippable moments where everybody's

[01:02:49] running around and trying to get out of each other's way while the camera's moving yoff it still

[01:02:54] look great and andre still look great i mean it's really kind of amazing if you have a read diamond

[01:03:00] in yoff it code on next to each other in a bar seat right it's definitely 100 of lighting challenge

[01:03:06] and it's something that i would look at a call sheet and or the daily call sheet and go okay this

[01:03:11] actor this actor okay today's gonna be relatively simple today's gonna be more complicated and

[01:03:16] we saw who was who is up we would definitely spend extra time and make a huge extra effort to try to get

[01:03:22] you to adequately like people who needed to be lit more absolutely it was definitely

[01:03:28] a challenge that's one reason why we developed a four foot tube on a stick was to i would basically

[01:03:33] hover a yoff at night exteriors i would be on his just three quarter back or even more front

[01:03:38] all in an adult times and when he was off camera i would take the stick and put it behind

[01:03:42] like read diamond and just give read a little back edge or something or whatever but as mason i saw the

[01:03:48] camera go to yoff it i was right there with the tube and you've never really noticed the light

[01:03:51] shift you're changing so it really because the camera's moving everything's moving and suddenly

[01:03:56] he's exposed properly and that four foot tube is so broad that it becomes a nice soft

[01:04:01] rapid sort of light source it really did work but it was an absolute challenge and thank you for

[01:04:07] noticing that i'm really we try our best side and most of the times at work there was a couple

[01:04:11] of moments one on a ramp that i recall that jim yoshio wrote threatened emergency as the yoff

[01:04:17] it just because he stopped in a place it was we're doing playing the scene under these overhead

[01:04:23] scoops and he was well lit at that point and i just had a little bit of fill light a battery

[01:04:28] battery fill like and uh and i wanted a couple subsequent takes he didn't stop there he just

[01:04:33] stopped in a pool of just darkness which you know for that that film stock and under lighting

[01:04:39] someone like that didn't play well and basically they still i think they still used it but and there

[01:04:43] was talk about trying to reshoot it and everything infinity was like absolutely not you know move

[01:04:48] on we're fine we're good and i was horrified it was it was not really it was like the fact that

[01:04:53] i still remember this you know a couple years later but but but back to what you just said

[01:05:01] about the scene on the ramp i was watching i was that's the only ones i watched last night was

[01:05:07] sniper one and two um there was a scene where isabella hoffman who is white and blonde with

[01:05:14] clayton leber and they're arguing as they're going up the ramp and the last shot clayton stops

[01:05:21] in absolute blackness and it's just his silhouette but right like leading him right in front of him

[01:05:29] the other side of the ramp was really brightly lit and it's cutting back and forth between them

[01:05:34] but it was this beautiful shot of him silhouetted in the dark and her you know it was a sort of soft

[01:05:41] warm light on her but the tension of the scene and him being the villain in that scene because he

[01:05:47] was saying no to everything and then he eventually demotes her um it was it was perfect and i don't

[01:05:53] know if that was an accident or that was on purpose that that particular one what was that

[01:05:58] genre alex well that was and i can't remember if that was part one or part two because part one was

[01:06:05] jawn directing and shooting and then part two was darnell um darnell martin so i'm not sure which

[01:06:12] which i think it's part one is part one okay he is demoted in part one okay so that was yeah so that

[01:06:17] was uh with jawn then but it was you know but back to what i said earlier by jawn just being

[01:06:24] such an intuitive camera guy just saw it just from framing composition he i don't know if he directed

[01:06:30] the book to be in or out of the light or whatever or just saw it and just went for it and used it you

[01:06:35] know it didn't like put the camera down and say hey we need to like this he just knew intuitively

[01:06:40] probably with you know as a director and as a director of photography that that worked

[01:06:45] in terms of the scene you know in terms of the script right which is great

[01:06:50] and it looked perfectly natural too in that you know in that environment and the building

[01:06:55] the building just forces you to do that kind of stuff you know you don't you can't like knock out

[01:07:01] a cement wall and put a light up or a grid you're gonna you're in a that ramp was just a concrete

[01:07:07] tube you couldn't like there's nowhere to like hide anything the ramp that that was at two or

[01:07:13] three floors we had to push our equipment up every day that that was the best exercise she could

[01:07:19] every day was every day was a leg day to like yeah 200 yard every day somebody'd say do you

[01:07:26] want help with that when i was pushing the camera card up and i'd be like no this is the only exercise

[01:07:31] i'm gonna get today is pushing this thing up three floors well i get other exercise that no

[01:07:37] elevator that was a shoulder builder for sure have you guys been down there uh they you know

[01:07:43] since they transformed it into the um the the fancy hotel at the tendry yeah joe and i had drinks

[01:07:48] there a year or so yeah i went into the ballroom and it is just the old squadron was going to

[01:07:54] me too just i mean it's beautiful it's a little it's a little much for phil's point big but it

[01:07:59] is a big change it's a transition it's gorgeous i mean you finally see like we had all our sets

[01:08:04] built except for the coffee room you could actually see those you know two-story high

[01:08:09] arched windows but now you know you can actually see the the architecture of of what the what the

[01:08:15] space actually looked like yeah the building became a character itself originally they were looking at

[01:08:21] the hippodrome theater as a place there when jim was first scat baltimore and the uh the city

[01:08:27] pier was was possibility and he looked at it just thinking of it as a space to build sets inside

[01:08:32] he never thought of it necessarily as being the the police station but it was sort of a happy

[01:08:38] accident beautiful brick the permanent building built i guess in the 30s or something just stately and

[01:08:44] it turned into the exterior as well which was fabulous and so great right and really iconic

[01:08:50] you know people so you could still see people standing in front of it getting their pictures

[01:08:54] taken but not because it's a pembry because it was the homicide sets well that'll be me hopefully

[01:09:00] next year but yeah yeah i have to get you down there look at that get us all down there you're

[01:09:06] buying chris yeah yeah exactly we're here the crabs are good and the chicken livers

[01:09:12] oh we were talking about the chicken livers

[01:09:16] john chris asked chris asked john or asked both of us about crabs and and john said no

[01:09:22] the best part was the fried chicken livers and we started talking about you guys

[01:09:28] when we were in west baltimore go to the corner convenience store and come out

[01:09:32] with a paper bag full of fried gizzards and and and livers and he was like passing around everybody

[01:09:38] and how good they were i'm playing jim curts with that completely

[01:09:51] being in fellas point and being in that building was a big eight where donets a wrap

[01:09:56] seven a.m. call tomorrow whatever we would just drop our tools and walk out the door

[01:10:00] walk directly across the street to john stevens and sit down and have a couple of years and

[01:10:05] invariably then the camera department trickle in some of the actors will trickle in john might

[01:10:09] trickle in we'd all be buying each other's drinks and it was such a again such a family like

[01:10:14] you need work hard together all day and in the evenings you dig press and tell stories and it

[01:10:19] it was sure at least the first like three or four seats everybody went out night pretty much

[01:10:24] all together it's like we couldn't get enough of each other during the day we had to go to the bar

[01:10:28] and uh and continue the day into the sometime in the early seasons into the wee hours i remember

[01:10:34] a few times stumbling back from the bar to my little um one room um shack of the of an

[01:10:40] apartment in fellas point that falling asleep having to get up in five hours and go back to

[01:10:45] work so i was i like to do that because i was in my you know like 20s or 30s it would not fly yeah

[01:10:53] and the migration from sometimes it was john stevens and that was the waterfront and then

[01:10:57] somehow i don't know we got kicked out of the waterfront and when then we ended up with coopers

[01:11:01] yeah coopers became the favorite yeah a lot of ours to choose from both were no shortage of

[01:11:06] great uh posts one after the other yeah well i think i think we're getting a bit close to

[01:11:13] wrapping up but are there any other sort of key things you want to talk about before we do partways

[01:11:19] today any could be memories could be anything and maybe even something thoughts on the enduring

[01:11:24] legacy of the show as well yeah i mean i think it's it definitely is a great time capsule of

[01:11:29] like a baltimore that's kind of fading away i watch it every now and then just to see the you

[01:11:35] know the locations and whatever and uh i'd also like take one second just to say a memorial to my

[01:11:44] best boy was dav wilkins for he did the whole show also he died in 2018 yeah he was a great part of

[01:11:53] the show great sensei humor a strong character yeah yeah he was a terrific guy he had a few demons but

[01:12:00] he was a smart funny guy that's what makes that's what makes everyone interesting so

[01:12:06] don't we all we definitely lost a few people from that show over the years yeah yeah so they

[01:12:13] quite feel quite a lot of the cost now sadly but and randy randy lee randy lee before dav

[01:12:21] jim finner yeah one of the yeah jim ned baby yeah yeah for 30 years it's hard to believe it is hard to

[01:12:31] believe i was uh i was i was the young guy on set but definitely a great great experience and i really

[01:12:39] i mean i just don't know what sort of magic fairy dust got spread that i was tapped to joint john

[01:12:45] and ween in that very first show again i really had no idea what i was getting into we walked on to the

[01:12:51] onto the uh into the ballroom and wane layman dola the fifth level i grip

[01:12:57] the infinity at higher they're building the grid over the set walls and he was like oh you're the key

[01:13:01] grip how are you with the grid i'm like i have no clue and i'm like uh like right about here he goes

[01:13:06] okay well then i was like and little and i know that that height we would work at that height for

[01:13:11] seven seasons and it was good because you could reach lights but you also had the

[01:13:15] with banyan head as you walked around so it could have been a little bit higher but what did i know

[01:13:19] i was like you know zero clue i mean i i had some experience you know fortunately worked on a couple

[01:13:25] of big films of the key grip from the orc this guy don surround who brought me along a couple of

[01:13:29] shows of the third it did a mickey rork film and um asbury park new jersey where i was as a third

[01:13:35] just helping sandbags and learn stuff i was able to observe how he ran and learned what he did

[01:13:39] and what was expected of and then when i got tapped to be the key grip i had some tools

[01:13:44] like toolkit to sort of figure out you know how to act how to make this work how to run the crew

[01:13:48] especially that how it can count on me much like jim protected everyone from from directors or whatever

[01:13:55] my job is kind of run like room protect my crew from being you know from being late or you know

[01:14:00] being not ready for something and we said to think especially on this show you had to really

[01:14:05] think well ahead of the next day the next day next set up where can we pre-stage in this

[01:14:11] next area so that we're ready to go and we're not like hold the bag like yeah oh yeah you're supposed

[01:14:16] to put you know build this or do that just have things ready ahead of time that was and i'd like

[01:14:21] that from dawn and from other people that i've worked with but i mean i was i mean i not the city

[01:14:26] i was completely unprepared for it but i was pretty much completely unprepared for it i just had

[01:14:29] you basically get into it because it was also different it was we all learned together and

[01:14:34] we all came up together and we all figured it out part of that whole you know familiar

[01:14:38] you think which was so great excellent well susan i don't know if you have any sort of final

[01:14:43] thoughts or anything else you'd like to ask before we wrap up today uh no i don't think so

[01:14:48] i i agree with thought with all that it was um a really unique experience and also just one of

[01:14:56] those situations where you just look around and go you know there's in a better crew anywhere

[01:15:01] and i worked in hollywood for eight years with some really good crews and um to come home

[01:15:07] you know and see some of the people i went to college with all having been in you know in the

[01:15:13] industry for a decade and end up on this show with some of them um and like you know at the time

[01:15:21] the best show on on the air it was absolutely the best show on the air and to have to be doing it

[01:15:27] at home after having lived in la for eight years was was amazing and we was just crazy good

[01:15:34] it was great well well done all of you for that it's uh you know can't believe it's yes 30 years

[01:15:39] isn't it so well done it's still being talked about hey the celebrated and you know it's a great show

[01:15:45] yeah thank you chris so thank you josh and joe for joining us today it's been really great

[01:15:50] chatting with you yeah pleasure pleasure's all i was thanks for having us thank you

[01:16:14] so that was josh and joe and that was a very there is a very detailed conversation

[01:16:19] and i thought it was really interesting and i i particularly appreciated um the the butt dolly

[01:16:26] because the butt dolly was so integral to the scenes in the box and i'm john very kindly shared a photo

[01:16:31] of me ages ago which is on our instagram of a scene in the box where he is on the butt dolly

[01:16:37] and it's quite an ingenious little invention so then john could use his feet to kind of

[01:16:41] go round smoothly the table um at eye level and i was i was looking it up so um panavision

[01:16:48] who are one of the the big rental companies and camera manufacturers in america and europe

[01:16:53] they actually have their own butt dolly now which is quite funny and it looks very fancy it's it's

[01:16:58] yeah i was looking it up and i thought it's super fancy and then there's some other rental companies

[01:17:02] across the uk that have them and one company has misattributed its invention to the tv show

[01:17:08] 24 so they they claim that tv show 24 invented the butt dolly when we have found out that no

[01:17:15] it wasn't 24 it was homicide and we can set the record straight right now yeah yeah because that

[01:17:22] was like they said it was a it was a piece of plywood 12 by 12 nice varnish piece of plywood

[01:17:28] they put i think it was eight eight skateboard or or or was it eight one two three four yeah eight

[01:17:34] eight skateboard wheels on and they get the skateboard wheels were canted because of course

[01:17:38] the speed rail is round so this so they were canted so they would hold on to the track yeah

[01:17:45] but yeah oh let's spread that around yeah just maybe laugh a little bit and then um and you're

[01:17:51] explained to me off at the sedan chair because when they explained it i i still didn't quite fully

[01:17:56] get it but but the challenge they would the technical challenge to throw it over come

[01:17:59] was filming shots as people walking down the stairs or upstairs or upstairs or up he would

[01:18:05] walk backwards up the stairs with somebody holding on to his belt and helping pull him up each stair

[01:18:12] which is when the chair the sedan chair got invented yeah it's brilliant so think about this

[01:18:20] for a moment everybody so a camera operator literally has to either walk backwards up or down

[01:18:26] some stairs now i don't recommend you do this at home but with the power of imagination

[01:18:31] you can imagine what it must be like going backwards downstairs with a very heavy camera on

[01:18:36] your shoulder so this this sedan chair obviously allow their genre or other camera operators to

[01:18:43] sit in this chair and kind of be carried down so not only are they getting a nice smooth shot

[01:18:47] but it's kind of removing some of the the danger and risk involved with going backwards downstairs

[01:18:54] and i think my recollection it was an old school metal office chair yeah i think a little padding

[01:19:02] in the back in the in the seat but really old school that was pulled off the set this was not

[01:19:06] like let's get a chair to cut the legs off it was the chair with the speed rails strapped to

[01:19:13] it underneath so that they could hold it from both sides yeah two rails underneath the chair

[01:19:18] and that were strapped to the chair and then at least it must have just been two guys on each side

[01:19:24] holding two rails either walking up or down the stairs depending on what the shot was so yeah

[01:19:32] very very low tech for a very effective smooth smooth shot which like you chris looked at

[01:19:40] and said how did they do that you know exactly and i've not now i didn't see panavision have their

[01:19:47] own one so obviously nobody else has attempted this since then because i think now am i right people

[01:19:52] are actually still walking backwards downstairs but now with steady cams and things it just seems like

[01:19:57] a really dangerous way to to do that well if you think about it the steady cam even though

[01:20:03] the steady cam operator is looking at the monitor the steady cam operator does not have the camera

[01:20:07] in his eye so john was doing it with the camera in his eye and the other eye you know looking

[01:20:12] around seeing where he was but could be more easily done i think you know i'm not a steady

[01:20:18] cam operator but more easily done with the steady cam because the steady cam operator has

[01:20:24] his or her eyes both eyes open and can see their surroundings obviously they have to pay attention

[01:20:31] you know focused on on this on the screen but um maybe easier with a steady definitely

[01:20:38] and if anybody's not sure what a steady cam is it's just a it's a vest that a camera operator wears

[01:20:43] with a mechanical arm that kind of extends from the vest so basically then the camera is suspended

[01:20:49] from the arm and with the power of i guess physics and engineering it keeps the camera

[01:20:55] smooth and it kind of almost creates a kind of boat like motion and it means in the camera

[01:21:00] operator can walk around and you don't get the footsteps of the camera operator is just

[01:21:04] nice and smooth so it kind of glides and it became very famous on a film called the shining

[01:21:09] which i believe stanley kubrick actually um worked with the inventor of the steady cam on the

[01:21:14] shining and they would do all those sort of chase sequences through the the maze at the hotel

[01:21:20] and in some of the shots as well of um following the boy on the bicycle whose name completely

[01:21:25] escapes me right now uh but those very iconic shots from the shining rule with steady cam

[01:21:30] so usually in the past you'd have to use something called a dolly to achieve similar kind of shots where

[01:21:36] it's a camera on i suppose it's a bit like um train rails is probably the best way to crudely

[01:21:42] describe how dolly works and a dolly requires people to then push the camera along these rails

[01:21:48] and the downside of that is obviously the rails are very heavy and the whole um dolly

[01:21:54] that the camera goes on is incredibly heavy as well so it means it's very slow to set up

[01:21:58] and on a show like homicide you don't have like two hours to set up a single shot so the steady cam

[01:22:05] well they didn't use steady cams on homicide but you're all handheld but on a lot of other shows

[01:22:09] they used the steady cam to kind of get that uh that dolly feel but without all the setup time

[01:22:15] of a dolly also the dolly track you know it's a track like a train track and you're limited to

[01:22:21] that movement up and down whichever direction you set you set it you're limited to that

[01:22:26] movement in addition to the panning and tilting of the camera and the booming up and down on the uh

[01:22:32] on the on the dolly arm um but yeah the steady cam the heavily uh heavily sprung very heavily

[01:22:40] sprung articulated arm that's so heavily sprung that when you put the camera on it it allows

[01:22:46] the camera to float basically it's a very it does take a bit of setup because it has to be

[01:22:52] perfectly balanced um it's it throws off the center of gravity of the operator if you've ever

[01:22:58] seen a steady cam operator walking they walk their legs are out ahead of them because they have all

[01:23:04] the weight on their hips from the articulated arm which is holding the camera out two two

[01:23:10] two feet foot and a half two feet ahead of them so um yeah floating on a heavily springed

[01:23:18] articulated arm is really what what it's doing and the really good camera operator steady cam

[01:23:24] operators is you don't feel the floatiness you just feel the very steady smoothness but not

[01:23:34] the motion the up and down and back and forth like you're in a ship motion you don't you

[01:23:38] shouldn't feel that you know unless the director wants it but so that so that's invisible it's

[01:23:44] invisible smooth but it's invisible doesn't call attention to itself i will say there are some

[01:23:50] tv shows that will remain nameless um where it does feel like a boat because the director's

[01:23:55] obviously asked the steady cam operator to do a lot of things um where i just remembering

[01:24:01] a shot from a show so recently so the camera starts i think it starts on a close up of a

[01:24:07] person sat behind the desk it then kind of does a 180 looking towards the door as two people walk in

[01:24:15] and the camera walks the people towards the people coming in the door then tracks back with them it

[01:24:20] kind of does a reverse of the shot it started with which is a lot there's a lot going on there

[01:24:25] and there was lots of boat motion and i'm assuming that he had a few goes at it because of

[01:24:31] schedules um and that's the other thing actually came out with the interview as well so what's

[01:24:35] remarkable about homicide behind the scenes is every day was a generally a 12 hour day whilst in

[01:24:42] television that's very rare and getting even rarer and it shouldn't because a 12 hour day is very hard

[01:24:48] work and it's not just 12 hours is then plus your commute getting there and back plus uh most

[01:24:53] crew members always turn up a minimum about 30 minutes earlier than the cool time that you're

[01:24:57] given so it's a very long day and it's a very physical day on a film set and there have

[01:25:02] been tragedies where people have died because they've fallen asleep driving home and i think that's

[01:25:08] one of the still big problems in the film industry today is these sort of creeping days that going

[01:25:14] into like 15 plus hours um it's not not great um so i'm uh so what was interesting is Jim Finnecy

[01:25:22] the kind of other unsung hero of homicide kind of very very wisely did his very best to keep

[01:25:28] those days at 12 hours um and i'm fascinated by Jim Finnecy and i'm enjoying these various

[01:25:34] descriptions i feel like i'm getting to know him a bit now but his name comes up he's emerging yeah

[01:25:40] he every everyone we have interviewed has mentioned him everyone as as the dual personality of keeping

[01:25:47] the show running and protecting the crew and also everybody at some time or other being

[01:25:53] completely terrified of him um which is what kept things running smoothly but the idea i i loved when

[01:25:59] they talked about um so here comes the Lincoln you know if we were get if we were you know pushing

[01:26:06] up against our 12 hours and somebody on the crew probably the ad's who are keeping him informed

[01:26:12] of what's going on you know say like we still got you know another half page to do or something

[01:26:18] yeah he he would emerge from the office jump in the Lincoln and come down and you know and he would

[01:26:25] do exactly what this guy said like you're done like you're done you're done you're finished you're done

[01:26:30] for the day and apparently Danny DeVito based his performance on Jim Finnecy in the movie

[01:26:36] Tin Men so i'm gonna have to watch i had never heard that thanks to like i was it josh or

[01:26:41] joe said that i'm gonna have to watch Tin Men now just to get a better sense of what Jim

[01:26:45] Finnecy was like i had never heard that and i wondered what i wondered what the circumstance was

[01:26:50] that's about 11 some films that Tin Men yeah yes that they yes one of his trilogy once that they

[01:26:57] spent enough time together before shooting the show how he connected with i guess he connected i

[01:27:02] mean he's a production manager so you connect with him at some point i guess as the actor i know

[01:27:06] we do as the crew i never really thought about the kind of interaction the actors have with

[01:27:11] a production manager before production but um but he definitely was an iconic personality um and uh

[01:27:20] yeah he you know he you know as they say you know not to make a comparison but you know he kept the

[01:27:26] trains running you know that's what he did but but we did know that he had us back and there

[01:27:32] were times when he asked us you know one of his other sayings was one hand washes the other

[01:27:38] um there were times when he asked us you know to wave turn around time uh because we had a specific

[01:27:46] issue and you know we had to come in earlier than our turn around time would be you know let's say

[01:27:51] if we had it your contract might say you can't come in earlier than 10 hours or eight hours or 12

[01:27:57] hours from your your you know when you finish the night before he may ask us to wave that um

[01:28:03] and i actually don't remember that happening once it might have happened more than once um but

[01:28:11] yeah it it struck me it struck me on on particularly on this interview with josh

[01:28:16] and josh and joe when he started talking about them i started remembering everyone we've talked to

[01:28:22] has mentioned him as a driving force on keeping the show going and together and supporting the

[01:28:28] crew and the show so yeah we may have to do a jimfinity episode just have everybody i think we do

[01:28:35] need to i don't know how that we will do that but um but it'd be good to do something about classic

[01:28:40] he was an iconic iconic character but sorely missed i'm sure in the film business because he was so

[01:28:46] efficient is there anything anything that stood out for you in the episode i think you'd like

[01:28:52] to to mention well it you know it's interesting when we recorded it it was just a conversation

[01:28:58] you know about what we did yeah when i listened to it back it struck me on on absolutely first of all

[01:29:08] how technical how deeply technical we got about what what what they did and what we did on the show

[01:29:13] yeah um but also it made me remember that whole and i knew i know as a camera assistant

[01:29:20] which you do have you have to do on every show but particularly on this show um you have to think

[01:29:25] on your feet you can you can never and that's another thing when you said how physically

[01:29:29] demanding a 12 hour day is it was also incredibly mentally demanding because there there is no

[01:29:37] point where you could look away like literally um when i came into the business i was trained

[01:29:43] you never take your eyes off the camera assistant and the cameraman or camera woman

[01:29:48] i never worked with a woman director photography it was always cameraman um so you could never let

[01:29:54] your guard down and you always had to think on your feet and everyone on the set had to do that

[01:30:00] because of how quickly we moved and how quickly things changed and i think that came across on

[01:30:05] on on this discussion and for them how quickly they modified moved changed things brought in things

[01:30:15] decided you know this will work in this situation you know how are we going to get a light on yaw fit

[01:30:20] when we're moving around the room um you know we have a keynote on the end of a poll or do we

[01:30:24] have a paper chinese lantern on the end of a poll and i love the story about dick wolf

[01:30:30] and we were not we should probably look it up we could never remember if a dick wolf had

[01:30:34] directed the episode or if he was there you know as a producer of the crossover

[01:30:39] but when um he watched um

[01:30:45] josh and joe light the exterior the night exterior scene and was incredulous once he saw the dailies

[01:30:53] about what little they did with what we had and how great it looked um yeah yeah that i think was

[01:31:01] that was a real i think example or testament of how well what they did work what we did worked with

[01:31:08] what we had and the inventiveness of it and in some in some ways the minimalism of it it

[01:31:16] in many ways it had to be minimal yeah because you couldn't have all these accoutrements and all

[01:31:22] this you know huge production going on around when when we're working like it essentially like a

[01:31:31] documentary crew where we're moving around so much and so quickly and then of course all the all

[01:31:37] the locations and all the practical locations you know we didn't have sets where you could move

[01:31:41] the walls around you can move the ceiling you could pull the grid up you know we didn't have

[01:31:44] any of that um maybe you could move the lights up a little bit but above us but as far as any any kind

[01:31:53] of traditional working on a set uh or locate you know sets we didn't have any of that um dick

[01:32:00] wolf was the producer because he's not credited at all was directing um he's just down and he

[01:32:05] came down to make sure you know how the crossovers were going yeah and i and i did like the the

[01:32:12] the um the discovery or the realization that uh josh pushed it over to joe that the entire

[01:32:20] responsibility for the fried gizzards and livers was joe josh said that was joe so so if anybody

[01:32:29] tries to steal that from us and say that they would you know yeah it was joe joe curts is

[01:32:35] inimitable taste for fried gizzards that that uh you know introduce that to the show

[01:32:42] oh fantastic yeah extra source of protein probably not the healthiest source of protein but

[01:32:48] they were delicious yeah yeah uh i was interested by the discussion about the lighting of the

[01:32:54] different skin tones because that is a challenge when you have a very white man next to a very

[01:32:59] dark black man um you know it's just unfortunately uh black skin does absorb light so it's very hard

[01:33:05] and then white skin reflects it so from a lighting point of view that becomes quite challenging with

[01:33:10] the way cameras sort of take all that information in um so i was really intrigued by some of the

[01:33:16] the kind of techniques they used and uh and they were talking about um the nightmare scenario would

[01:33:22] be yafek kosas stand next to read diamond in a dark bar apparently was the thing that

[01:33:27] would lead to quite a lot of prep from their point of view um so yeah it was very interesting all that

[01:33:32] yeah and and that wasn't something they took lightly you know they they took that seriously

[01:33:37] we're aware of it and made sure that that that the lighting worked for everybody whereas i think

[01:33:44] i mentioned in in the conversation i think sometimes that even on a regular television

[01:33:48] show everything's moving really fast that people don't want to stop and take the extra care maybe

[01:33:54] for that yeah again not wanting to name names there's been one or two shows especially very

[01:33:59] highly thought of shows in the past that have made some terrible errors on that front um and

[01:34:06] obviously um you know uh there's been a lot of discussions over the years with more black

[01:34:12] filmmakers coming out who who felt that you know black people in particular have not been

[01:34:17] photographed very well um and you know in many situations they're correct um and i think

[01:34:22] the one thing homicide and i think you've said this before as well homicide did photograph

[01:34:27] black people really well um and and you know with a lovely multi-racial cast there um i thought that

[01:34:33] the cinematography never lets the show down in that department yeah and i thought it was interesting

[01:34:39] and hopefully alex zakshevsky if you're out there listening um i need to contact you at some

[01:34:44] point um we can get alex on because i thought it was interesting that um josh and joe talked about

[01:34:50] when alex came on he shot things a little darker so you might have a key light um but then the fill

[01:34:57] light would be the ratio between the key light and the fill light meaning the hot light on the actor

[01:35:01] and then the sort of softer light that fills the other side um would be instead of being

[01:35:07] more in close proximity to each other uh the the key light would be hot and then the fill side

[01:35:12] would be much darker he liked a little more contrasting maybe a little more dramatic

[01:35:16] and uh i would love to talk to alex about that because that that's a fairly major change in in the way

[01:35:26] josh lit the show yeah made things happen so how he had to adjust himself and how they adjusted

[01:35:31] with that and i think i think the keynotes and stuff you know i always ask myself this question

[01:35:37] can you dim a fluorescent i think back then you could at some point you couldn't dim a fluorescent

[01:35:41] um but you know they would have they would have control they would have control over that other

[01:35:46] one of the other things speaking of dimmers that was interesting was they talked about and i

[01:35:50] remembered that there was this monster dimmer board it was probably mold richardson dimmer board

[01:35:56] sitting in a corner somewhere off part of the set we didn't use because they never used it

[01:36:02] there was no where you know there there weren't always you know you have a board like that on a set

[01:36:07] where you go in and you pop up all the normal lights you use and then you adjust it for whatever

[01:36:11] the scene is and you have all those lights in you know plugged into the dimmer board and you control

[01:36:16] them all through that um and they was i don't i don't remember them ever using that they might have

[01:36:22] for yeah so that was an interesting memory for me to think like okay the thing that they use

[01:36:29] in traditional television filmmaking stuck in the corner because what we're doing is so not

[01:36:36] traditional yeah yeah and it was interesting as well i think it was joe's comments about obviously

[01:36:44] the the limitations of being in an actual building rather than on a set with floating walls out so

[01:36:49] for people who've never been in a film set basically you can remove a wall for the convenience

[01:36:54] of the camera whilst obviously in a real location you can't do that because you're dealing with the

[01:36:58] real brickwork and stuff um and there are pros and cons to both sides um and uh so you know it was

[01:37:05] really interesting you know the character of the building became so important to the show and um and

[01:37:10] i think again that's one of the other wonderful things about homicide using a real location

[01:37:14] gave it that sense of authenticity you wouldn't get with like my pdb right yeah and and would

[01:37:20] would a baltimore literally like a eight foot wide 10 foot wide i mean that's that was

[01:37:27] probably the norm eight foot or ten foot wide um baltimore row house feel the same if you'd built

[01:37:34] a set where you could take a wall out and step back past that eight feet or ten feet when

[01:37:41] they had to work within the confines of that so then you you are in that space you are compacted

[01:37:47] in that space and i think that you know that gives a feel it also makes the tension i think it made

[01:37:52] things it it raised the tension if if you have all these characters crammed into a small space that

[01:38:01] you can't escape from right i can't escape from it i have to think about how many times in places

[01:38:09] like that i have to find a place to hide after i banged the slate you know a lot of times it's

[01:38:14] like stepping around a corner or hiding behind a chair or but in those tiny little you know houses

[01:38:20] who knows i might have handed it to to boots and he did it and then i had to like go outside or something

[01:38:25] but yeah they were small small spaces yeah so anything else to add or are you happy uh i don't

[01:38:32] think so i think that whole uh that whole can do attitude that they talked about i don't think

[01:38:37] they ever said no to jaune i've been on shows where you know people say no to the cameraman

[01:38:42] or the director they may have said no to directors on how i've said but i don't think they ever said no

[01:38:47] to jaune um because i think that creativity and that excitement about being creative um

[01:38:55] they loved doing it you know it was fun it was fun and i think you get that sense

[01:38:59] from josh and joe that it was fun obviously it was difficult it was hard you know maybe we

[01:39:04] are only remembering all the happy stuff but i think that was one of the the really enjoyable

[01:39:10] aspects of the show for everybody yeah indeed no again they echoed that it was some of the most

[01:39:16] fulfilling time of their career so you know i think it was josh said he peaked high right he peaked too

[01:39:22] soon whilst joe claimed he'd never peaked at all bless him right joe said he'd yet oh wait a

[01:39:28] minute wait a minute josh i've yet to be all right oh they were great those guys they were

[01:39:34] really great and interesting stories too to hear that i didn't know that joe had started as a

[01:39:37] projectionist at the smithsonian i'd never heard that story before so that was cool and that josh

[01:39:42] started you know as a pa so it's interesting for people to hear out there that you know you can get

[01:39:47] in so through different ways there's a lot of different avenues to get into whatever field

[01:39:52] you're interested in just get your experience you know indeed yeah yeah there's no one set way

[01:39:57] so yeah excellent well susan thank you very much for your time today i think that was a really

[01:40:03] really interesting episode and yeah it was a fun and everybody thank you very much for listening i hope

[01:40:08] you enjoyed that and don't forget to connect with us on social media we are on twitter threads and

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[01:41:04] going about its importance that we might well get it back or get it online and streaming

[01:41:10] so there we go thank you very much everybody yes let's state it stated goal that while

[01:41:15] we're still doing this podcast we will then be able to start talking about watching it

[01:41:21] on a streaming platform i assume peacock but whatever let's get it out there yes whatever the platform

[01:41:29] we want it out there and i guess well trot well why don't we do a if it does actually happen

[01:41:35] let's do a live episode and do a watch along with some people oh that would be fun oh yeah

[01:41:41] yeah whoo there we go there we go we'll have only only fried gizzards allowed us to be eaten

[01:41:50] and and one of our baltimore beers whatever one is left yeah exactly yeah

[01:41:57] cool right thank you everybody take care thanks