S1 Ep5: Reed Diamond, Detective. Mike Kellerman

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award-winning television show Homicide Life On The Street with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram. On today's podcast we're joined by actor Reed Diamond who played Detective Mike Kellerman.

[00:00:36] On the episode Reed shares of us his formative experiences of being on the show. Hello everybody and welcome to the podcast Susan how are you? Hey good looking forward to getting this Reed episode out to our viewers, our listeners.

[00:01:15] I think they'll really enjoy it. Yeah indeed well yeah Reed so today we have Reed Diamond, Detective Mike Kellerman retired and now PI. Yeah yeah. There's the new show Reed Detective. Why isn't there a Reed Diamond, Mike Kellerman's spin-off? There we are.

[00:01:34] Mike Kellerman PI that'd be quite cool. Yeah Tom or Tom Fontana are you listening? We need a new show. Indeed so yeah so no we've got Reed Diamond today and honestly this is a fantastic interview.

[00:01:47] I think it's nearly two hours. Reed was you know right off the bat one of the get going and you know I suggest everybody pour yourself your favorite drink sit back and enjoy the ride.

[00:01:57] I think there's a lot of great anecdotes in here and obviously one technical note since this episode was recorded it's been announced that the rights issues that were preventing homicide for streaming have now been resolved which is great but there's no firm word yet

[00:02:10] as of when and where the show will be streamed but other than that I think those are the only real key things to say before we jump into it. Yeah and I think one of the great things too

[00:02:21] was the historical context he gives about about the show and what's happening in the 90s with television which was really interesting and also I just like to say although this will be on

[00:02:34] line for a long time happy birthday to him because he has a birthday in July and the third week of July and I believe his wife's birthday is actually July 4th the day this episode is dropping so happy

[00:02:47] birthday to you too. Yes happy birthday thank you very much for listening everybody and we'll go straight in. Can we just jump in? Yeah go for it. Let's just jump in because like I said to Susan

[00:03:17] and I said to you in the emails homicide holds a incredibly significant place so let me just start off by confessing I didn't sleep last night. Oh wow. And because I was I didn't sleep and it's

[00:03:29] interesting because yesterday in preparation for this I watched a bunch of episodes on YouTube and I'm not the kind of actor who watches himself I don't really go backwards and

[00:03:40] it was intense so let me just start off by saying as you know your other guests have said yes this was the most exceptional and important creative experience of my life but it's more than that

[00:03:55] right because yes Mike Hellerman is the greatest character that I've ever had the great good fortune to play. Right. But as much as it was a transformational artistic experience

[00:04:07] it so informed my life and changed who I am not only as an actor but changed who I was as a man and it was so to come on here and try to talk about oh what was my time because I do lots of shows and

[00:04:20] I can talk about my time on Journey Man or my time in the MCU or whatever the heck it is and judging Amy because those are jobs and I can talk about the job but this was like saying

[00:04:30] hey tell us about high school because the guy who showed up for you know Fire part one is the is not the guy who left with Kellerman PI or Fallen Heroes part two so this was not only a

[00:04:45] profound as I said artistic experience it was I think about it all the time and it truly set me on the course to who I became from for good and ill it wasn't an all

[00:04:55] it certainly wasn't a cushy fuzzy experience but it was the greatest artistic experience I've ever had and I remember when I left when and we could talk about this more about how how Tom and I

[00:05:11] decided to leave I remember sitting in my car on Tem Street and just sobbing just sobbing because I loved I because I didn't know I was going to come back for the PI stuff and

[00:05:23] and I just I couldn't believe that I wasn't going to get to be Mike Kellerman ever again and I know and it still gets me emotional now and and as far as homicide goes I also feel like

[00:05:34] it's really important to frame what this show was because especially for a modern audience because what's hard to conceive of is the world that this show was made in this was a network

[00:05:47] television show for NBC at the time there were three and then you know Fox had really just started as the fourth major television network and Fox obviously had had gotten you know gone to great

[00:05:59] heights now with the X-Files but we're making a network television show basic cable didn't exist yet um HBO you'll probably know this better than I I think maybe Larry Sanders had started but they

[00:06:10] hadn't jumped in they'd made our list but they hadn't jumped into dramas basically you know Tom started them with Oz and then Sopranos but the world that we made this show in doesn't exist

[00:06:21] anymore right so you're making a network television show and also what I think it's hard for people to understand too or to conceive of is in that in in the mid 90s in the 90s there was television

[00:06:36] and there was film yeah and neither the Twain should ever meet film actors weren't going to do television and television actors hoped to do film but that was the to to make that transition was so

[00:06:45] rare and here we were making this renegade tv show that could only have been made on location in Baltimore with these people with these incredibly talented and brilliant people but you got

[00:06:57] you've got these directors and you got these film actors who came to do it so and then we made 22 but I think you know when I talk about homicide you know there we also made a cutting

[00:07:09] edge cop show on network television with no profanity right and it's which is hard right I was thinking about it that way it's on a network show and and obviously lots of innuendo and and

[00:07:22] it's interesting um you know I love that it never got in retrospect at the time I was outraged that it didn't get the Emmy love that it deserved and you'd see the sort of usual suspects

[00:07:32] being nominated every year but it but then I guess it was poetic and apropos that it never did receive that you know it's like being with they were the pixies they were the replacements it wasn't

[00:07:45] we weren't we weren't you too right or Backstreet Boys it was just it was that special special show and getting to make it in it couldn't have been made by any other people and it had

[00:07:55] to be made in Baltimore but that's just my just that's my little beginning so I read honestly what an introduction there thank you for sharing all that and it's a real honor to have you on and

[00:08:07] it's I was saying this to Carl it's sort of for me a very strange experience because I sort of known you for so long as Mike Kellerman to now meet you as read diamonds wow you know it's

[00:08:17] quite a quite a thing so we're slightly I'm slightly different I feel like Kyle is closer to to Bayless in real life yeah yeah yeah it's and Kellerman was sort of the person I wanted to be but

[00:08:33] and my my soft little crunchy center would get out every once in a while but sorry go ahead yeah it's lovely to meet you yeah it's great to see Susan as I was saying off as I was saying before

[00:08:44] we started it's like when I think of homicide Susan's face is one of the first ones that pops up and so I just love that you guys are doing this and I've loved listening to the first for the first

[00:08:56] two podcasts I've been out and it was so cool like hearing people's perspectives and hearing their voices and learning new things but then also being just pulled instantly back to those feelings from

[00:09:07] 30 years half my life ago when I started this show literally half my life ago and it was it was cool and I just work with Jean and it's always like a week before his episode aired and it's just so

[00:09:18] cool when when you work with old homicide friends like I worked with Alex or other DPs for like half of six months on Bosch and it's just when and obviously I've worked with Clark many times

[00:09:31] which we'll definitely I'm sure we'll talk about but it's like it's so cool to see those guys because you've been through something it's like it's like meeting your old platoon mates

[00:09:40] right you know you all you storm from Normandy all the way to Berlin and now and those were hard days but when you see each other it's all love and happiness and confidence in each other I mean

[00:09:49] it's so funny to work with somebody like Jean or Alex as directors and obviously I've worked with them as directors starting on homicide as well but just the the confidence they have in you

[00:09:57] and the fun and the shorthands we still have this many years later and and then whenever you run into anyone I mean I used to when I lived in LA I'd see Kyle all the time and it's just

[00:10:07] it's a kinder jetler period I suppose after your great introduction it might be interesting to chat a little bit about the beginning of your acting career and how you ended up on

[00:10:17] homicide yeah talk just a little bit about Sylvia you're at Juilliard weren't you yeah so let me start a little bit in the middle of the story and then move backwards if that's okay because

[00:10:26] that's cool it was very post-modern I like yeah so let's do it exactly it's just like how every show starts now um let me give you exactly the inciting incident and then we'll go backwards

[00:10:34] um so it's I guess I'm very naive in so many ways and it was only a few years ago that it hit me like a diamond bullet that um the reason I was brought on the show in you know for the

[00:10:48] beginning of season four for the second full season of the show were probably not the reasons that I thought I was brought on the show and and also the intentions that I showed up there

[00:10:59] with which I'll tell you about were probably not what anyone had in mind um so certainly that was brought home uh after especially after listening to Tom and and Julie and Jorge uh I think now

[00:11:13] well I I'd never discussed this with Tom but I would imagine I was brought on to be the hunk or be hunky and obviously I never saw myself that way and and I've been preparing as we'll

[00:11:23] talk about for about three years to play this part and uh the genius of Tom Fontana and the beauty of this show was I think they had an idea for me I know they had an idea for me

[00:11:32] I guess he used to refer to it originally as frat boy with a gun um and and I had a different idea of who the character was and through that um I we our two streams melded and I got the

[00:11:49] had the great good fortune to have one of the most exciting arcs of any character on television but so and to go backwards just a little bit before that so I think uh well yeah I'll tell you

[00:12:01] I'll tell you my my my my actor's journey so I grew up in New York City um which was very fortunate for a young budding actor my my mother had come to New York to be an actress but she wasn't

[00:12:12] she was an astrologer she became an astrologer my father was a television director at at the local uh television station channel nine W.O.R and he directed the news and probably most notably

[00:12:25] he was the director of a show called The Joe Franklin Show which I'm not sure if you're familiar with it but uh Billy Chris used to parody it on uh SNL but what made Joe Franklin

[00:12:36] such an amazing show I was just showing it to my family was Joe was Broadway Joe Franklin he you knew everything about the history of of the movies and Broadway and so you could literally on

[00:12:48] the set have Bing Crosby sitting next to Tony D. Marco who was a lounge singer in Paterson, New Jersey and he and he's like oh I've got the great Tony DeMarco here you're doing wonderful

[00:12:58] things Bing this is Tony you're so everyone was a star he was the most gracious host and he was he was encyclopedic in his knowledge of trivia um and also thanks to him because we

[00:13:10] I don't know why my father wasn't paid very much at Channel 9 for the local station so all of our tickets all the Broadway shows I saw back in the day that sort of really formed me

[00:13:19] were because Joe got comps to all the shows so I was lucky to go to you know opening or close to opening of Sweeney Todd or whatever would be Annie but all the things that formed me

[00:13:28] but um so I grew up in the city um I was very fortunate um I think I kind of knew I wanted to be an actor for sure um around sixth grade even though I wrote an autobiography um in third grade

[00:13:42] which is which is right he's like that seems like a silly task to assign an eight-year-old so there wasn't much to write and so I had like chapter like it begins chapter two he's in school

[00:13:53] but then I wrote chapter four was the future and I said in the future I will have a van and because it's it was this it was the mid-70s right so everyone wanted a van with

[00:14:02] carpeting on the inside and I'd written on the side I'd drawn a picture of it a the fons you know as in Arthur Fonzarelli but um but then I turned the page and I said and I had a picture

[00:14:12] and I go and I want to be an actor and I'm gonna be an actor and I'd drawn a picture of myself in some sort of like Elizabethan ruffled collar standing in front of footlight so somehow at

[00:14:22] eight I knew and then I was really fortunate when I got into high school I went to high school in the Upper West Side and when I started my freshman year a new teacher Michael Gilbert

[00:14:33] came and started the theater he was a theater teacher and he came in and overhauled the entire program and we were doing really incredible plays um he and another teacher Al Romano

[00:14:45] so we had three theaters we had a black box theater a main stage a smaller theater upstairs and by 10th grade I knew for sure that's what I was gonna do um uh I remember very clearly just

[00:14:59] we were doing Jean Giroudu's Electra and I'm backstage and hearing the opening music I'm about to come out I'm like I love this and I go all I want to do is be a working actor right

[00:15:08] and and I'm not sure if I if I was able to sort of pre-sage that or if I just curse myself because that's what I've been a better working actor since you know 1984-85 um and so then just by the

[00:15:22] sheer um good fortune of being in New York City I was doing a play my senior year and my first representatives came and saw me there and I I'd already committed to it so by you after my

[00:15:34] junior year of high school I went for the summer I was an apprentice up at Williamstown the theater festival up in Massachusetts and worked with a bunch of people who came and guest starred

[00:15:42] on Homicide later and as a 16 year old and I was an apprentice there with Kiefer Sutherland we were both apprentices together young young men and then so my senior year in high school I'm doing Diary of

[00:15:52] Anne Frank and my first managers come and they sign me up and um I go you know I go to their offices down in midtown in the morning I sign my papers and I go to my first audition for a

[00:16:02] commercial that afternoon this is March of 1985 yeah I go to my first audition and I get it right so I was it ruined me because I thought oh this is how the business is going to be I'm

[00:16:13] gonna get my first job and I was very lucky uh it was a commercial that aired during live aid and that summer and uh and back then commercials ran for a long time so that paid for the first

[00:16:25] couple years of college and I went to University of North Carolina for a little while just because I haven't grown up in New York I wanted to leave I wanted to go somewhere else I wanted to

[00:16:35] go somewhere where I wasn't going to run into people that I knew from the city but I knew I was going to be an actor so it was just I just wanted and I heard they had a good drama program and I

[00:16:44] remember pretty early on when I was there uh that I go ah you know everyone says I'm really good but I don't feel really good I feel like I need a little more competition I think I need I want

[00:16:55] to be classically trained because I had this vision of myself I go I want to play Lear in my 70s and and it just by happenstance that weekend the in the Sunday New York Times magazine the

[00:17:04] cover was on Yale drama school and Juilliard and it had uh many of you know a bunch of the alumni in some photo shoot and I was only a sophomore in college at the time and and Yale was a graduate

[00:17:16] program so I go ah I can't go there so I guess I'll go to Juilliard and I didn't know that it was hard to get into and at the time my favorite actor was William Hurt had gone there and I thought

[00:17:26] oh yeah this is cool so I called them up and I said hey could I have an audition for Juilliard and they said oh you missed the you missed the you missed the deadline it was due last week I go

[00:17:35] hey there's this thing called um Federal Express that's just come out if I FedEx my application to you think I could get an audition and this is a churcher and I got it and I got the audition

[00:17:45] and I was lucky enough to get into Juilliard and it's sheer it was sheer ignorance on my part because I didn't know that it was hard to get into so I wasn't nervous and I prepared

[00:17:56] I'd prepared some really sort of off the you had to do a obviously a classical and a contemporary monologue so for classical I picked something because for years I've been doing Richard the third as I

[00:18:05] started doing Richard the third in high school but I was like I'm not going to do Richard the third for this I'm going to try something new and I found some horrible sort of very romantic

[00:18:12] kingly speech I can't even remember what it was from at the time and then for my contemporary I picked Charlie Brown from your Goodman Charlie Brown which I don't think was exactly Juilliard

[00:18:22] material but it was funny because I as I say like I was I go to school during the year and in the summers I was an actor so I would go and auditions at the time just really just commercials

[00:18:32] and so I would spend all summer in Manhattan just pounding the pavement and trying to get jobs and um so I thought well with commercials usually if if a hundred people audition 50

[00:18:43] people get called back so I thought that was going to be the deal at Juilliard but I remember going to do my audition in the morning and the callbacks go up in the afternoon I went out got

[00:18:51] some ramen and came back and and there were only two names on the list of the callbacks and luckily I was one of them and luckily I got in and uh and so I right before I got Juilliard I had to miss

[00:19:04] my first day of orientation because I got this commercial and I remember it was for Subaru and back then commercials ran forever and uh and I had to pay for Juilliard and it was much

[00:19:14] more expensive than college and uh and I and and so like I said to the the second head of the school was like hey I'm gonna have to miss orientation he's like well we really frown upon that I'm like

[00:19:24] I need this money and luckily you know I missed a bit of orientation but I got this commercial that actually paid for the first two years of Juilliard but then so as a first year student

[00:19:34] at Juilliard that's the first time that I met the great Andre Brower so when I showed up in the fall I was a first year student it's a four-year program and Andre was in his fourth

[00:19:45] year his senior year and me and me and the guys who became my two best friends from my class um at Juilliard we got um uh you know sort of pulled into or not pulled in we were we were assigned

[00:19:58] we had to be in the fourth year production and at that time Andre was playing Othello in you know in Othello and so me and my buddies we played various small parts in that and I got to

[00:20:09] see his brilliance and he was a star then I mean it was obviously they picked Othello because of Andre and he was uh obviously an incredibly powerful actor Shakespeare was just it was

[00:20:26] he was quite easy for him and he was inspiring and he was inspiring to watch and how he held that performance I still think about it often um and so that was my first so then I followed you know

[00:20:38] I followed him to Juilliard three years later and then I followed him to homicide three years later so yeah so weird the ha the happenstance all those things along the way that you may have

[00:20:47] have not connected with him there because you may have gotten in later or not gotten in on all those little happenstance it's really cool and it was great to see him I mean he was and I

[00:20:56] say like he was a star I mean already but before he even left there they had pictures of him up in the walls at Juilliard as Othello because it was an incredible incredible performance and and I'd

[00:21:06] see him every once in a while I was at Juilliard because I remember he got on they they revised Kojak for a while with Teli Savales the and he played a detective on that and then I remember

[00:21:18] Gloria came out and that was really exciting and he was so good in that um but then so I was at Juilliard and then like I say I was going to school during the year and in the summers

[00:21:27] I would act and my second year at Juilliard and like I said it's a four-year program I got cast in this movie shooting where you live Chris over in England I got cast in this

[00:21:36] movie called Memphis Bell I remember that film right so it was a film about a B-17 bomber crew in the second world and it's all I remember seeing that in the theater right yeah and it was also

[00:21:47] that was the that's where the Kellerman brothers uh I first met the Kellerman brothers because I made that movie with Eric Stoltz and Tate Donovan that's it and that's that's so that's how

[00:21:56] they that's how that came to be wow because we all because this was so strange and it was an amazing movie it's you know talking about how sort of like of its time uh how special in its time and

[00:22:08] unique and suiz genreese that you know homicide is it was so cool that this was my first movie another thing that ruined me like it was a to have my first movie were four months in

[00:22:17] England we went to boot camp we were the only second we're only the second movie ever to do a boot camp the first one which Finnerty worked on was platoon so Finnerty was like key grip right

[00:22:26] Jim Finnerty was key grip on platoon and they sent those boys they did Dale Dye famous Dale Dye ex-marine he did the boot camp for those guys we got sent down to um uh Dartmoor

[00:22:37] where the Royal Marine strain and we did a week on at Lord Fulford's manor he was like an sas guy and he had a manor house down there you probably know some of these guys Chris

[00:22:47] and so we had a bunch of these ex-sas Royal Marines guys take us through and in fact Lord Fulford had built a full sort of like obstacles course and on his property on his at his manner

[00:22:57] and all he did all day it was great because it was like he was like upper class twin of the year not that he was a twit but it was like either the Monty Python bit where all he was he

[00:23:04] just drank and shot all day long just had shooting parties I mean I kid you not it was like and his manor house had been in the family forever but they were on the wrong side somewhere of one

[00:23:14] of the Civil Wars I mean maybe you know I don't didn't seem Cromwellian but it was like so there was a battle flags everywhere but I became best friends with Tate and Eric while we were during

[00:23:24] boot camp because we were out on maneuvers one night they gave us like AK-47s with blanks and we had to go chase down some Royal Marines and we had just the three of us slept in a one

[00:23:33] man tent you know while we were on maneuvers and we were best friends ever since but and so then long story short because I don't want this to be tedious so then came back finished at

[00:23:43] Juilliard every summer I do a movie and then after my fourth year of Juilliard I graduated I did the only TV show at the time that was shooting in New York which was the original

[00:23:58] Launora the mother ship classic yeah and so I did it season two I played a bad guy season two and then that cast was Paul Servino and Chris Knoth because the second because the first year

[00:24:10] was George Zunza who I loved from Dear Hunter and no George Zunza George Zunza right that's going back right and so I did that and so that was the only show there and then I did my

[00:24:21] my I did a Broadway play I did the we did the first sort of US or American a revival of the homecoming of the pinter play and then after that was done I was like well

[00:24:30] I'm done I've done everything in New York um and I want I went to LA and so uh I I moved to LA because I wanted to have a change of pace and it's funny because growing up in New York City

[00:24:42] especially then I mean now once again you don't have to live in LA or New York but back then if you're an American actor you had to live in Los Angeles or New York and they both said

[00:24:51] something about you you know I always thought oh I'm a New York actor because I started in the theater and but um but I got out to LA and I remember I'll tell you this funny story

[00:24:59] this is the difference I can put the difference between New York and LA in a nutshell so when you audition and I like I said I've mostly only worked I auditioned in the summer so it would be

[00:25:08] New York City in the summer and you know you know when it's like a Baltimore just like 100% humidity 85 degrees and you're walking those by the time I've gotten those four long blocks those long avenue blocks from the subway to wherever I was supposed to audition my hair

[00:25:20] is already frizzed out I'm soaked through and you'd go into these tiny little rooms and traditionally many of the casting directors were less than uh forthcoming or kind and you'd just be sitting

[00:25:31] there cramped there'd be you know four chairs for ten actors and you'd just be listening to the other person's audition in the next room and just it was just miserable and I remember

[00:25:40] the first time I went out to Los Angeles I stayed at Tate Donovan's house and uh and I rented a car so that's already like I'm in an air conditioned car going to audition

[00:25:50] so I go to my first audition right it felt good it's like you have your little air conditioned office on wheels and I go to my first audition in Beverly Hills and it's a beautiful building

[00:25:59] I parked my car it's easy to park and and I walk in and there's a receptionist there and I'm like I go I'll read diamonds she goes I'll read we're so happy you're here

[00:26:09] and I'm like and would you like a bottle of water and I'm like I go you're happy I'm here like I mean it was obviously it's not she didn't know who I was I was just the name on the

[00:26:18] list but just I was like oh I can get used to this this is awesome everyone's it's just a little bit nicer and so so I moved there and uh but soon after I moved there I moved there in the winter of 92

[00:26:32] and also like when you land in January and then and the as you know she was in the Jasmine's blooming at night and you're just like wow it's like paradise and it was great just because

[00:26:40] I'd live the first 24 years of my life or and the eucalyptus that's what I remember yeah and the jacaranda trees and male those purple flowers it's something it's something gorgeous about it but I got to and I've been I've done a bunch of things I'd done um I'd

[00:26:55] done a homework movie with Jessica Lang and uh Willa Catherine novel O pioneers and I'd done I'd done some I'd done a bunch of TV movies and and the movie but my goal was really you know

[00:27:08] as per how we started this conversation I was like I'm gonna be a film actor I'm not gonna act on television I want to be a film actor um but then also after I got there it was

[00:27:16] a crazy time in LA within a month or two after I got there the the riots happened and it just seemed like a really crazy dangerous place and then I had this as I think many actors do I had

[00:27:29] sort of an existential crisis I go for yeah to to be a little hyperbolic I was like what am I doing I go I'm playing pretend for a living I want to do something real and and I'd always

[00:27:40] wanted to I always thought about being a cop and uh and as we can talk about as it goes my cousin my father's cousin was an arson detective in Seattle and I'd spent my I'd spent some of my

[00:27:53] summers hanging out with him on his boat and that track is on my side already exactly very kellerman finnerty and so and so and then because I was acting I was doing I guess I was

[00:28:04] doing TV movies when I first got there and I met a lot there were a lot of cops who would work on shows LAPD guys so I befriended um this one amazing cop uh Ron and I just told him

[00:28:16] that I think I want to join he's like okay and so he took me to the police academy and we visited he spent the day at the police academy and and then and then he's like do you want to go on a

[00:28:26] ride along and I said yeah so he took me on a ride along down in Watts and and it was intense it was quite a place to go for a ride it was it was a great it was well within I I wasn't

[00:28:37] in the car so it was me and two I guess uniform cops and then because I was the I was you know a white guy in plain clothes it just looked like everyone assumed I was a cop and um within

[00:28:48] I don't know we weren't in the car 30 minutes and I saw my first dead body and it was an overdose but I went to my first it was the first dead body that I hadn't seen

[00:28:58] in an open casket at a funeral's um you know a relatives funeral and but what was interesting is all the cops I met they all wanted to be actors right everyone when I when I went back

[00:29:11] to the station house at Watts they're like and I go and I realized as I as I knew in third grade right I was born to be an actor it's what I love and so in that moment I remember being in the

[00:29:21] police station in Watts outside one of the holding cells and I go I am going to play a cop on television and I'm going to play it truthfully and so this is 1992 and I immersed myself

[00:29:33] in the world of cops so obviously there was the television show cops um but there were a lot of great books or a bunch of books that came out about uh just little stories from there was two

[00:29:43] books the same series about Chicago cops there was one about Boston cops there was this famous book um uh about New York City the most decorated New York cop called The Soul of um I think it's

[00:29:54] The Soul of a Cop and uh interesting that's for this that's for the Paul Ragonese wrote it and it's funny that Tom said that Yash got the idea of the subway episode from

[00:30:05] Taxi Cab Conventions um he may believe that but I told him that story because that's one of the main stories that happened to this cop in this book and I remember sitting in Finnerty's office

[00:30:15] and Yash was like hey do you have any ideas I'm like well you gotta read this this cop's story because he was the most decorated he was at emergency services cops so they're sort of

[00:30:22] like the special forces of NYPD and he done all these heroic things but he he was with this guy who got trapped in the subway and they knew as soon as the subway was gonna move the person was

[00:30:30] gonna die so he arranged in the 80s to have a phone brought down there and all that stuff but but I think Yash legitimately forgot because when he wrote it I was like I told you that story

[00:30:40] but he you know but you know we were all fond uh big fans of cocktails back in the day on the homicide show so and I think uh no foul there but um so I was preparing and preparing and

[00:30:50] preparing but at the time I remember I finally sort of made the decision financially I was like I better start doing television um but I was just playing boyfriends and I hated it

[00:31:01] and I remember going I remember I remember going uh to my manager's office and there was the head of the company uh and I won't say her name but she's I go I want to play a cop she's like you're not

[00:31:12] gonna play a cop you have to do a lot more kissy face no one's gonna give you a gun you've got you're just you're just gonna do kissy face and I'm like I don't want to do

[00:31:19] kissy face I want to play a cop and so so then cut to so I'm literally that's all I'm doing is preparing to play a cop for for a couple of years and I remember I'm sitting doing I'm

[00:31:32] doing a very well written pilot I'm doing a two hour pilot in Vancouver um actually an amazing cast and some of them who also appeared on homicide and I remember sitting in my room at the

[00:31:43] it wasn't the Sutton Place then it was called the Meridian but it became the famous Sutton Place in Vancouver and I'm sitting in my room and the first episode of Homicide Heirs

[00:31:54] and I remember sitting there and watching it and I was just I go I have to be on this show that's the first episodes you caught the first episode the first episode and for me because

[00:32:07] because I was looking for the cop show that was real and so to to to go you know to backtrack a little bit the movies that formed me were all of the Sydney Lumet movies right like Serpa

[00:32:19] Co and Dog Day Afternoon Prince of the City where you had these realistic gritty urban tales shot on location and in fact all my movies are all my favorite movies are really that period of those

[00:32:30] great directors of the 70s where you're you're on location it's it's really happening and they're telling truthful stories and all those characters I mean all those actors I was I remember there was a character actor who used to be in a bunch of city Lumet movies Jack Kehoe

[00:32:45] and I'm like oh I want to be like him and I really was inspired by these people in those stories and then again as we got to on you know which is so essential to homicide everything was shot

[00:32:53] on location in those gritty streets and that makes a huge difference but I remember watching the the first episode and Yatha Koto and Ned Beatty and John Polito were acting heroes of mine

[00:33:06] those were guys you know because I always look to the the character actors and I mean Yatha Koto I loved him so much I I know you worked on this movie Susan right you on the star chamber

[00:33:17] yeah star chamber yeah so he exactly so he played a cop on that he's amazing in it and you know which which I told him on there for which I'll tell you that story later but uh

[00:33:27] so and Ned Beatty like he was unassailable as an end pollitars is such a huge pollitro fan and there's Andre and I just remember I want to be on this show I want to be on this show so

[00:33:36] were you shocked when you saw Andre walk in or did you know I mean was that was that that personal connection also a surprise when you saw him on no I wasn't surprised because he was a star he

[00:33:47] should have been you know like it was I was expecting you know only great things from Andre but I was like this and then I remember you know the hand-heldness of it because the other

[00:33:55] thing too was I remember when NYPD blue came out and you know forgive me this this is all good nature disparaging but I was like I hated that show and I thought like you know because I was like like Fontana said like until homicide occurred

[00:34:13] Hill Street Blues was the show and then the other show that I loved was his show St. Elsewhere I was like these are real shows and there were performances on St. Elsewhere that stuck with

[00:34:22] me forever like Steven Morse you know and it's just like there were there were performance on there that I never forgot and that's to go back to just for a moment to what we talked about

[00:34:31] in the beginning what you also have to understand is because there was no basic cable and there wasn't even really the HBO's and the showtimes yet in the 80s and the 90s people were trying to make cutting

[00:34:42] edge dramas or comedies but dramas you know I can speak to a little more authoritatively on network television and I always feel like the last the last attempt at that

[00:34:53] was West Wing and then after that there was no reason to do it there because and then you know there's a reason you know The Wire is my favorite show ever because it feels like the fulfillment

[00:35:04] of everything that we wanted to do on homicide but couldn't because of the language and and so I just I love that show backwards and forwards but so anyway so I see um I see the pilot and I go

[00:35:17] I have to be on that show I have to be on that show and so it was I guess around two years later I get an audition for homicide and and it was a brilliant scene did I want to jump in did you

[00:35:31] have any connection from working on Law and Order was Tom connected with that at all at that point no I didn't know anybody um I didn't know no I didn't know anything because when I the the

[00:35:42] year I did Law and Order was like a singular year um where they they had a different sort of producing staff and then then there was a regime change after that and uh so no I didn't know Tom um but this

[00:35:55] audition came out and it was a brilliant scene and it was it was like a two-page scene in the box and Kellerman wasn't called Kellerman yet he was called something else which I wish I

[00:36:06] wish it came to me but someone will know um but and now here a little just piece of trivia about auditioning in the 90s everything that I went up for in the 90s when I was doing all the kissy

[00:36:19] face because I was doing you know I was doing all those tv movies I was doing I was being Tori Spelling's boyfriend or Kelly you know I was who Kelly Martin's boyfriend I'd be like I'd be

[00:36:28] like the boyfriend who you think is a bad boy but he's a good boy or whatever you know so I'm do it all those and everything I auditioned for in the early 90s on the breakdowns and the breakdowns

[00:36:38] are sort of the description of the character that the casting sends out it it would always say a Johnny Dep type and now I wasn't a Johnny Dep type and so oftentimes during pilot season because that those

[00:36:49] were the that was the era of pilot season where you could have four auditions a day right and you're going from studio to studio and you're auditioning all the time pilot season was huge it was huge

[00:36:58] so I used to my technique back then was I'd say to my reps I just go hey if this is the first day they're seeing people don't send me I want to go after they've seen all the Johnny Dep types because

[00:37:08] there were a lot and I'll come in and then maybe if they're willing to see an actor like me who looks like me because I was blonde blue I'd kid and that strategy usually worked for me but

[00:37:20] with the homicide thing I was just so excited the scene was so good and I go I hope they want someone who looks like me I don't know and I remember I'll never forget so I went to

[00:37:29] NBC in Burbank and there was a satellite office there where they did a lot of casting were on somewhere on the campus there in Burbank and I walked into that room and you know every

[00:37:38] actor in that room you know today like everyone wanted to be on that show and and I but I it was sort of like the Juilliard thing like I felt like I'd been preparing for three years

[00:37:48] so I felt really confident I just didn't I wasn't confident that they would want someone who looked like me physically and at the time I've just done this crazy movie with uh with Stallone

[00:38:02] and Antonio Banderas uh called assassins oh yeah more right and so I did this case Antonio Banderas was fantastic I've got funny Stallone stories where we can talk about it but drink

[00:38:13] sometime but um I my hair was I grown my hair very long because it was the 90s so I had to like the big sweeping 90s hair and I'd grown a goatee which um so I had this sort of look a very

[00:38:26] grungy you know but you know 90s look and you know the audition went great and I luckily got a callback and the callback was in New York and I happened to be in New York and it was at Lou

[00:38:38] de Jamos office and it was going to be with Tom and Barry and Lou de Jamos notably cast the godfather right so that's all that was really exciting so I was so excited yeah

[00:38:50] that's a name that's that's a name right and so I was just so excited they gave me an extra scene so it was like the it was an interrogation scene was a box scene and then it was a scene where that

[00:38:58] that woman drops her shirt in front of me when I'm which appeared I think in fire part one where she strips yeah with her red kimono right she tries to seduce me and I was just

[00:39:10] like so excited so nervous and I remember I think there was one other actor there that day but I went in and Barry and Tom and they were so lovely they're so lovely and and I I gave it and

[00:39:21] I went back out to the room and I was like oh I think I could do better and I was like and I've never done this before but I was like hey guys can I do it one more time and I'm like sure come on

[00:39:28] do it one more time because I just wanted it so bad and uh lo and behold I got it um and uh you know then began I can't even say the next chapter of my life it began a whole another novel

[00:39:43] of my life you know it's interesting you mentioned that scene because I was watching um I watched a bunch of episodes last night and this morning including fire part one and two right obviously that's when you know you walk in and somebody says detective who right like who

[00:39:59] is he but that scene specifically that scene with the woman across the street he was you were interviewing her to see if she had um to see if she'd witnessed anything and witness the fire

[00:40:10] and she had shown up that morning and was sort of you know inserting herself and you know into the into the investigation the morning of the fire but then when you go over I think you go back

[00:40:19] the second time I talked to her and that's when she drops the kimono and I remember thinking how nuanced that performance was because you are obviously like she drops your kimono and you're

[00:40:29] obviously like I'm gonna look right you know I'm gonna look but also I'm a professional and she's not going to get over on me and I'm not interested and she's not going to draw me in but I really

[00:40:43] that really struck me the the the range you could see yourself thinking and the range of emotions going through you in that scene because you also wanted to get what you wanted to get

[00:40:56] from her you know you wanted to sort of placate her enough to maybe get some information but not you know not to cross the line with her so that just it really struck me when I watched when I

[00:41:08] watched it last night it's very kind of you to say because good performance you're so sweet because well because my when I watch that you know the first two episodes is well first

[00:41:18] all I was I want to pause this this conversation for one second yes sake really clearly here that I think the first thing we need to address is the writing on the show was so incredible

[00:41:28] oh right so like you know we have a saying that if it's not on the page it's not on the stage and so to and it ties into this scene so to have these amazing scenes to audition with where

[00:41:40] if the writing is so subtle and so as you said nuanced it was a gift I mean I will forever be grateful that I got to work with these incredible writers I mean Tom Fontana is a genius and um and

[00:41:56] and so because you know we didn't improvise anything right we weren't allowed to the only improvised I remember in the entire shooting that I did on that show was when the Kellerman brothers came because they couldn't control them but I'll tell you that story later but that

[00:42:09] scene so it's funny that you say you you you say that scene was nuanced so thank you I mean all I see is we're trying to find this guy's look which they put too much makeup on me because

[00:42:19] we were trying to figure out all these things so I'll give you a little sense of so when we started this when I said I only realized a few years ago that uh I don't think I was brought on for the

[00:42:31] reasons I thought I was brought on you know in my mind I'm like I've been preparing for this part for three years I know what it is to be a cop and like they wanted someone to do some

[00:42:39] kissy face and so they'd written a scene where a woman gets all naked in front of me and um and it's interesting I'm good to say it now I mean poor Julie Martin the amount of times I called

[00:42:50] her because they would write me these kissy face scenes or these romantic scenes and every time they'd write them the entire time I was there I go I don't want to do it let's not do that I go

[00:42:59] that's not homicide I go let's do the homicide version of what this scene would be and so I go no I go he can't have a good relationship and also the other thing too is if if you notice

[00:43:08] in retrospect he had so let me just say the you know they said we speak for the dead right they said that was their mantra in the writer's room my mantra for Mike Kellerman when I first showed up

[00:43:20] was he joined I did this to make the world safer for kids and old ladies so he that's he was there every day to make the world a better place for kids and old ladies right so yeah already

[00:43:30] he's too vulnerable that that's and so his downfall is sort of preordained in a certain way because he's too sensitive for this job and he's also you even see it in fire part two with

[00:43:41] my ex-wife or he's just in love with her right and and I'd always fight for love scenes jumping ahead in the motel episode in full moon yeah I think they'd written this scene where the the prostitute

[00:43:55] and I sort of like canoodle where we make out or something like that and luckily Larry and Leslie Williams Larry Larry Williams Leslie Libman were directing that and I said hey you know

[00:44:04] I got I have the different idea for this scene hear me out I go what if wouldn't it be more interesting if you really connected with it like you really liked her so like how about they have this conversation

[00:44:13] instead of like kissing and doing it how about they're like sort of sitting next to each other staring up at the stars I just had this image in my head yeah and seeing that same and it was

[00:44:22] and so and I know and you know it's funny because I realize now what a shmuck I was I was frustrating them at every turn right because they wanted me to do kissy face and be hot

[00:44:30] and I first of all a full confession I've never seen myself as hot I certainly didn't see myself as hot then so that wouldn't have been occurred to me I was like they got me here because they know

[00:44:39] that I'm a serious young actor but you say that because I watched that episode last night too and and that scene specifically I remember thinking to myself it was so homicide right because it became a philosophical discussion yeah right yeah that's what the show is so good

[00:44:55] it didn't go to the sex it went to the philosophical discussion and it gave her room to be a person too yeah you know and that's and that was important like because it was like yeah they couldn't be

[00:45:07] props they they were had to be full characters and I thought that's the homicide version because NYPD blues sorry to you know I told me to defame them but it's like you know they you know

[00:45:16] they show a little butt and they get everyone's will get a shit in but like I didn't want to do that I felt I I felt such a responsibility to the homicide brand and I think that speaks to

[00:45:28] my rival there because um I will say this unequivocally um no one was very excited to see me show up when I showed up at the beginning of season four and and not at all and anyway in particular

[00:45:42] it was no one was excited to see me and now I realized yeah who is the bond kid and I'll tell you some funny stories about this but and I realized in retrospect I was like of

[00:45:51] course they thought oh this guy's gonna ruin the show because you just lost Ned and Danny and John and now I'm coming in and they think that you know some pretty they think I'm in a Melrose place up

[00:46:03] but put the joint and so it's funny because my first day of shooting remember not shooting my first day on set meeting everyone was my 28th birthday so July 20th 1995 and the day started

[00:46:17] you know so you know it's a billion you know 100 humidity um uh we started with we had to go meet somewhere in Baltimore because the mayor was going to give us like the key to the city

[00:46:26] or it was like called homicide day or something like that so so I remember Henry Brumell who I loved and Tom they're like we're gonna pick you up at the hotel I think I was staying at

[00:46:34] Henderson's Wharf we're gonna pick you up and we're gonna drive you downtown we gotta do this um uh meeting the you know the mayor's gonna give us a key to say and we had to come back

[00:46:43] and do the galleries do the photo shoots because we always start each season with the photo shoots which is a whole nother story so I remember the cast was there no one would talk to me the only

[00:46:53] person who would talk to me was Belzer and Belzer said oh man welcome so glad you're here and you know Belzer and I were friends ever since from that day but he was the only one

[00:47:01] but I was like oh this is great this makes sense because I was such an earnest young actor I was like oh no they would never like the new guy coming to the squad it'd be really hard for

[00:47:09] him so I was like I can use this I can use this um and I remember I still remember that that first day of shooting so we had to do the group shots and you know if you've ever had to

[00:47:19] photograph the homicide uh cast you've you've been to nom and back because of this will this well so this I guess let me just this will be the first time I start this theme that

[00:47:34] will run throughout the entire conversation is like so I worked with these are the most talented people I've ever had the great good fortune to work with um and they were powerful intense

[00:47:46] motherfuckers right so there were some egos and intensity so like no one wanted to do the the photo shoots I mean oh they would just sit no one people would be giving fuck you fingers

[00:47:58] doing it and then the the NBC photographer would catch that he's like please stop that and you know and me and I'm coming into this oh it would create and then people would want I mean

[00:48:08] how many times people would just walk off or like we're done and and and I'm I am so young and so earnest and I come from this like theater like oh we're gonna put on a show and like ensemble

[00:48:19] and it was just insane and right so I'm just remember that first day like Clark and I have to do these these are because we knew we were going to be and they're going to make us partners

[00:48:30] let it do our photo shoot I remember him looking at me like you're not going to be here long and like I'm like I'm gonna be here long and but you know things things changed but that first two

[00:48:39] episodes were so amazing you know what I had such I was so lucky to have such incredible introductory episodes the fire part one and part two yeah there's a really dramatic and also just really visual those those episodes yeah they're beautiful and they were yeah

[00:48:56] but it was it was strange because yeah I I'm trying to make I say like you welcomed me Susan and there were a few people who are friendly at first Latina uh in uh custom designer and everyone in the office all everyone in the office was delightful

[00:49:09] but I was like okay this is what it's gonna be like I'm gonna earn my stripes and um because Andrei was it was what about Andre I mean if you knew him how was that like well he it was funny

[00:49:20] because I was still like the first year student to him he was like oh you know hello I remember you but he wasn't he wasn't he wasn't no one was I guess like no one was excited to see me

[00:49:30] and now in retrospect I totally get it because they thought I was going to ruin the show they didn't know that I had ulterior motives well I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in and just ask early on in

[00:49:38] auditions for other things you said the um the um the not the sides or whatever you said always said the breakdown the breakdown yeah always said they wanted a Johnny Depp type

[00:49:50] did you have a sense uh you said later you know you knew they wanted you to do kissy face sort of you know add sex to the show or whatever but was there a sense what type they were looking for

[00:50:01] did it say that anything well I don't know because I think they said I think the breakdown for the homicide thing did probably say a Johnny Depp type I really do if I recall but but I think the

[00:50:12] other thing you know also let's pause let's say what one of the things that makes homicide so special is that is that cast and you know it's so funny because nowadays there's such a sort of

[00:50:23] external push for diversity that is sort of imposed on a show um and that was the most diverse show just and it wasn't it wasn't it just was the best actors for the part you know

[00:50:34] you've got Yafik Koto playing an a Sicilian and you know I I'm to the credit to Barry and Tom to you know cast just the best actors for the parts and it wasn't it was a you know multi

[00:50:48] racial cast without without being cynical about it it just was and that's and I think it's true it's like whenever you even thought about it like that's how we all saw the world we thought you know it was the

[00:50:59] you know Dr. King's dream right you know we're just we're just a content of your character and so I love that I mean I love you know they you know they always have Yafik saying something I'll

[00:51:09] never forget him saying just watching him try to say risotto you know like in the I remember it was it was the documentary one he's like and a nice risotto and but it was like so the best

[00:51:20] actors were hired so I'm sure they had a vision and I'm sure NBC had a vision of who they want because I'm sure I'm sure I was foisted or the the addition of the kissy face character I'm sure was foisted

[00:51:32] upon them by NBC I mean I'd love to uh I've just reconnected with Tom I'd love to talk to him about this but but yeah so it was fine it was chilly it was chilly at first but it quickly

[00:51:42] it quickly warmed up I mean I think it's funny you say that scene with the with my xy or not my xy for the woman who exposed herself I can just see it's funny going back and watching all these

[00:51:53] episodes but yesterday um I can the hardest thing about being an actor is you have to um is you have to rehearse in public and uh and I had to find that character

[00:52:06] in in front of everyone on set because I'm also the kind of actor I I can I prepare but it really until I'm in the close in the situation with the other players I I have to find it physically and

[00:52:21] emotionally and tact tact tactily and and there were so many there were competing ideas of like who I was supposed to be how I was supposed to look because originally Tom wanted

[00:52:31] me in jeans and then I remember this is all like this first day like he wanted me in jeans and then like no you know Gary you know Deodario or like you know our tech advisor amazing D you

[00:52:40] know Gary D he's like he can't wear jeans no one on the force can wear jeans and and he and and I and I couldn't have the goatee and they're like should we keep his hair long cut his hair like

[00:52:50] the hair sagas never ended I never had good hair that entire time you know and so we were trying to find his look and it's funny because they were putting because he liked phishings they

[00:53:01] gave me like a phishing tie and then these like weird weird clothes we didn't find my look the the people who actually found my look were Larry and Leslie when we did the motel episode

[00:53:10] which I think we shot earlier than it aired and they were so visual and so cool and they came up with this look that became Calamans look was more of a 40s look where I had solid color

[00:53:21] shirts and ties and went with it and sort of these 40s cut suits or you know early 50s cut suits and so they found it and that was great because then because we were sort of like

[00:53:32] shooting in the dark and I'm just trying to be good I was just and and doing it in front of you know in front of everybody and how much did that and how much did that that sort of

[00:53:41] anxiety and trying to find yourself really hooked into here you're playing a character who has anxiety who's trying to find his way in this in this established you know hardcore homicide unit um did it work like that or does that not really work like you know

[00:53:57] in real life as an actor no it totally worked that's such a smart question that's a really great question because that's that's exactly it's exactly how it worked and I was such a keener

[00:54:06] that I go oh this is perfect like all of this will feed me and this is what this is what Mike would be going through and this insecurity and in fact my favorite scene of all of those those

[00:54:17] first two episodes and the one where I felt it landed as to he as to who he truly was or is was the scene with my dad at the distillery and because he didn't have to put the bravado on

[00:54:32] in that scene um and it's it shows him emotionally as how has he truly is I can see his end there I can see that he's too sensitive for this job um and too earnest uh but and I was just a

[00:54:47] magical scene but also having done that scene uh I I never drank well liquor again as you see that those bottles are being filled by like garden hoses I mean it turned out I have a friend who's like oh

[00:54:58] yeah my family used to own that place I mean and all it was was like this horrible rotgut coming out of these giant vats through garden hoses and then there was a stacks stacks of um labels

[00:55:09] because it was that would be the vodka Lord Baltimore vodka or if they sent it to the px at some military institution it would be their vodka so it was terrifying so I never drank well

[00:55:19] liquor again so and that's and that scene actually because I you know what just watched the episodes too um that scene was interesting because you know you you understand why we're seeing that you

[00:55:33] know you're you're going back there to get sort of a boost from him or to understand what you should be doing with your life and also I thought it was interesting in the full moon

[00:55:41] episode where you talk about what could I do would I do my life over again and that's like way before the Luther Mahoney shooting in the yeah and the and the corruption trial

[00:55:50] and and the whole thing but um you know there was a real tell um uh look in in that scene with your father I think it was just the last beat there was like an extra beat exactly on the

[00:56:04] end where you look at the totality of of what your father is and what he's doing and and there's just you know this extra beat of that look of like and you know I really don't want to

[00:56:15] end up here exactly so you sort of see you sort of see your mind sort of click over into okay I really need to go back and do what I'm supposed to be doing um you know as a detective yeah

[00:56:27] exactly it and it was yeah you nailed it and also this also brings up the subject of music because also the music on the show was so important and Tom was so good at picking it and and there was

[00:56:40] sort of this Mike Kellerman theme song that live song I Alone that swells up where you know he's who are and it really that sort of I never I listened to that song repeatedly after that

[00:56:52] because it sort of got me right into the mood and that was one of the coolest things about the show was the was the music and if I'm sure you remember right Tom would always give us

[00:57:01] cassette tapes yeah Christmas of yeah there's so magical I still have them too right they were like the best mixtapes ever because they had such a wide range of interesting interesting music what

[00:57:13] they will personalize tapes to look at you know it was just it was the one for the it was the music that he'd used that season in the show and you know but they just had they were so

[00:57:21] tasty like I remember like we had that beat down they played like super bomb bomb super bomb bomb like there was so many cool there's so many cool action or sequences in that show that are

[00:57:30] inextricably aligned with the music that he shows and he's such an incredible taste and talking about the the music at the end of the scene with your dad I just also watched Have a Conscience and the scene where right after you know you're about to shoot yourself

[00:57:44] and you and Clark are walking down the pier and the music comes up and it put the period on the sentence you know the music you know really drew out even more emotionality from that scene

[00:57:58] as just as you're walking away and it was it was a sort of like I like I don't remember the the lyrics or something like I don't want to be alone or I'm gonna be together with you or it

[00:58:06] was something where you know it underlined your partnership with with with Meldrick and that you know how important that was and to stay there and to be you know to be together

[00:58:16] and be alive yeah here's the thing we you know that show was art and and also but they weren't doing 10 episodes or six episodes they had to do 22 I mean the writing was incredible but just

[00:58:29] the filmmaking which will obviously we'll get into in depth but it the music was key and I it was great to hear Tom sort of dispel the myth because we all heard I'm averaging heard

[00:58:39] Simon talk about it David Simon talk about like that we couldn't the reason it doesn't stream because everyone wants it to stream is because the music but he's saying that not it's true so

[00:58:47] I do hope it's out there I mean it's amazing yeah apparently there's some movement now on moving ahead with the streaming so fingers crossed you know that's gonna happen so Chris do you want to jump in I know Chris one of the questions you had I think you

[00:59:01] had seen somewhere was an anecdote read about your first experience with Yaffet yes that was that was a really good story that one dude talked about Yaffet I definitely want to talk about this so this is great it's perfect because it came up in

[00:59:14] these episodes in the fire episodes so like you know Yaffet is a trip right and now now so as I said before I was such a huge Yaffet Kodo fan and so you know I'm getting to meet

[00:59:28] everybody and I love the act of fact I love our scene you know we have together I always loved all of my scenes with him there was a great dynamic and and I was but but

[00:59:36] I didn't know the man well yet but within two seconds of meeting him we're in the box for I guess he's gonna offer me the job and I just said Mr. Kodo I just have to tell you you are my

[00:59:46] favorite James Bond villain of all time and he just lights up and then I just start going through his resume and I go you in the star chamber I mean I get inspired me across 110th

[00:59:56] street and so so we hit it off really well now now knowing that the man had had an ego befitting his humongousness because the man had hands bigger than my head like he was

[01:00:11] so we hit it off but Yaffet was a trip so I mean I can tell you some Yaffet stories but let me let me tie one into you know talking about shooting the show so shooting the show

[01:00:22] was amazing and I want to really get into this about John and Boots and you and but obviously just as we know the there was no traditional coverage right so we're just everyone's going where they're going you there's no marks you find the scene there was no close-ups

[01:00:39] Yaffet always wanted a close-up and he had like three great techniques for always getting them and I watched because I was because the thing as I said like this was such a crucible for me

[01:00:50] this entire experience like I'm learning I'm this is where I learned how to act on television I was really up until the show I really considered myself only a theater actor I didn't I wasn't

[01:01:00] comfortable in front of the camera and so this was my school and it was great to do it handheld and great to do with John and and do it in that way where marks weren't important and there was

[01:01:08] a lot more freedom but Yaffet had these great techniques for getting a close-up now the number one one if you're in the box and you'll see this all the time he would go and look out

[01:01:18] the window so there's that little square window and so if he does have the scene out the window you have to turn around and shoot him through the window so he'd get a close-up that way

[01:01:26] he'd also or he'd go to the mirror and do the same thing and talk into the one-way two-way mirror whatever the heck it is or as you see all the time he would just start walking he would

[01:01:35] walk away from you and so then the camera he had to be the point of the spear then so the camera would get right on his face and then the other one which I saw him do I think in this

[01:01:44] episode he wouldn't know his lines now sometimes he just legitimately didn't know his lines but sometimes he wouldn't know his lines so they were gonna have to like for his part of the scene

[01:01:56] we didn't get it we didn't get it in the in the in the group shots and then low and behold they'd do a single on him and he'd be word perfect and I was like wow I learned I mean

[01:02:08] I learned a lot from a lot of people on this show about like what not to do what to do I saw a lot of very bad behavior that was very successful but that was he was a genius at getting a close-up

[01:02:20] and um and one day I made him so mad because he was I finally was like I was probably like season it's probably my third season there like season six or whatever like that and I was just so

[01:02:30] tired of him just like walking away so he'd get the close-up and he had to follow him and so we're shooting this scene it's probably like Alex was probably shooting at this point

[01:02:37] and he starts walking away and as he's walking I just walked to my desk and go on get on the phone and he's like what are you doing and I was like I mean you're walking that way I'm

[01:02:45] just gonna go this way this is where this is where Mike would go and he couldn't because he was so used to it working all the time but no I love Jaffet so much do you remember um

[01:02:55] Susan when he had his nation of Islam bodyguard on set you know yeah I heard you mention that on something I listened to the other night and I I do not yeah I do not remember that

[01:03:06] because I thought about it a long time I find but it didn't it didn't spring to mind because one of the apocryphal stories that I heard because I would as I say I was like I could

[01:03:15] collect all the stories of the battle days before I got there because I'm such a fan of the show and Clark had all the stories so Clark or Jimmy Finnerty would tell me all the stories of what

[01:03:22] happened before I got there but I think one of the stories was like I think Tom might have told me this and it's fine this is a this is a sweet sweet story uh but Jaffet called

[01:03:31] Tom and said hey you've got to get NBC to get me some security because the FBI is going through my trash and the CIA is bugging my phone right he's like Jaffet I can't get you NBC's not going to

[01:03:40] pay for your security so then he had what was so funny is we have this nation of I oh I really remember him being there primarily during the documentary episode but like literally like read

[01:03:49] out of like out of frame just standing there that in case anyone tried to assassinate Jaffet but my favorite part was every morning he would go into Jaffet's trailer to check for bombs but one thing people probably don't know about this show is we didn't have dedicated trailers

[01:04:04] and there was no we only had triple bangers we had these you may have moved up to double bangers later once we have got that two-year pickup but like so you didn't know if you're

[01:04:13] going to plant a bomb you're just as likely to kill Max Perlich as you were Jaffet Koto at that point because no one had no one had an assigned trailer until like five minutes before they

[01:04:21] got there so this was like a great episode already it was really fun but anyway but I loved I loved Jaffet and and it's funny uh I mean I was like I say I was such a fan I was I was

[01:04:32] like you know and one of those repitches yourself like you're in a scene with Jaffet Koto and uh and he was hilarious uh sometimes he was unintentionally hilarious and one of my favorite things

[01:04:44] is Clark and I you know because the the greatest thing that happened to me on the show was that Clark and I became partners and you know because as I was saying like I was trying to find myself

[01:04:53] when I first arrived and I didn't really find myself until Clark and I got partnered up and he and I just aesthetically acting wise and then also like our vision of who these cops were

[01:05:04] we aligned and he used to tell he used to tell a story of you know because we knew that cops only talked through gallows humor and they would never if they had to say something sincere it would

[01:05:15] have to be through some sort of ribald joke and no one was going to speak directly and so we had that so we were able to have because I felt like Meldrick and Kellerman had this really

[01:05:25] intimate relationship but like very rarely would topics be addressed directly and it was nice too because we got to be sort of the antithesis of of Bayless and Pemberton because they were very serious

[01:05:35] and very philosophical and we would have more fun and we got to do fun stuff but also he told some I think it was like a J Lanceman it was a story from the some of the original guys

[01:05:46] from the book you know the original uh the real homicides go out in Baltimore and they're like oh I love you know Detective Blvd because you know when he's when he's when he's taking me

[01:05:54] from behind he always you know he plays with my hair and it's just he's so sweet you're like you know those things that we say where you can't say it directly and you say those things and I loved

[01:06:03] all that because that's how cops talk you know it's it's it's bad jokes it's gallows humor and so I you know I was very fortunate to Clark and I just had an easy chemistry it's so much fun

[01:06:14] to watch us just be in the cars just talking and you know I'm finding out like what you know he's not consummating his marriage all those things and caring about him and loving him

[01:06:22] but also he and I together like sometimes Yaffet would just he would say some crazy shit at the scene but he wouldn't know his lines or he'd say them weird and then he Clark and I would just be

[01:06:32] giggling like schoolboys in G's office because we were always trying to stay in the moment so we always played it because obviously that was one of the amazing things about the show was

[01:06:40] you're always on camera and everyone was there for each other so we were like if G was really saying these things where he's garbling the word and pushing through the intersection we're

[01:06:48] gonna laugh and he would get so mad at us but you know I figured you know Clark Clark had my back he could protect me I was just gonna quickly ask if you'd met any of the actual detectives from

[01:06:58] the book when you're on the show you know I I've so the book the book's really important to talk about too right because David Simon's book is um a masterpiece right and as as I said I

[01:07:08] I'd gone to cop college prior to showing up on this show and that was one of the books I read and I still um for years after anytime I played a cop on a TV show I would reread that book as my

[01:07:22] preparation because there was nothing like it I'm such a huge David Simon fan and I just I loved that book because as a person as I say I was I was devouring all these books but nothing had

[01:07:32] captured it that way you know a year on the killing streets really amazing amazing piece of work yeah it's an amazing piece of work and it's so and it's all right there and and you

[01:07:41] know we'll talk about how important Baltimore and unique Baltimore is and but it was such a special book so obviously um the first person who I met was Gary D you know Gary Dordario who's you know G

[01:07:52] basically in the book right how did G and D get on they got along great I mean Gary Gary was really cool because yeah they seem to get along great uh but I mean I had Gary D really was he was one

[01:08:06] one of the early people who was very nice to me because I was a huge fan I and he wanted to be really you know Gary really wanted to be involved right like he wanted to be on the show he wanted

[01:08:14] in so I think he's also enjoyed how how friendly and outgoing I was to him but I really would always ask him especially as I was starting to figure out each case I go hey what would you do right

[01:08:25] here like what would you do if you showed up you wrote up here like what would your first move he was like well you know I'd probably like sketch the body or get like a north you know

[01:08:32] which with a position of the body or I probably look at it from here I'm like okay great so for early on I used him exclusively I'd be like hey Gary what would you do right now and he'd

[01:08:42] tell me I'm like and I just do it um because I was like this is the real deal what a great resource to have right there right oh he was amazing to have it won the set yeah he was

[01:08:51] so cool right and and and I love Gary and I'd hang out with Gary all the time and and then it was great when Gary had to act too because he'd be like the head of the

[01:09:00] SWAT force right and he'd be all nervous but very excited and I'm like you're the real deal we're just a bunch of pretenders come on man but I know I love Gary and he really he helped me

[01:09:11] and I mean every once in a while the guys would stop by like I think like Jay Lansman stopped by because I remember that was also one of the cool things as a fan of the book and the story

[01:09:22] watching the wire and seeing those real guys show up because that's well that brings up another point Susan because I remember when I showed up you know the Baltimore accent it's very

[01:09:30] you know it's very particular yeah and no one did it I saw us a little clip of you doing a Baltimore accent on online somewhere and I thought what he did not do that in the show did it take you

[01:09:41] a while to learn it or did you decide you weren't gonna do it well because you spend time there hey these guys what you're doing right you know you're gonna get going to can't do a little

[01:09:49] bit of it without over you know like overdoing it but you didn't use that you didn't use that in the Kellerman character no they didn't want it oh interesting okay they didn't want to what what

[01:10:00] alienating yourself well I think you know it's a funny thing because I I mean this is important to talk about like Baltimore it is an incredibly unique city right and it has this but unless

[01:10:12] you've been there that accent would sound very strange I mean it was very cool on the wire that like Dominic West did it and I think he did it perfectly Melissa was doing it a little bit

[01:10:22] we she and I talked about this a lot and yeah she did it she did a little taste of it yeah she did a taste of it but they didn't want it because it's unless you know it you know now

[01:10:30] you know now they did it you know the one that takes place in in Pennsylvania and murdered her you know my daughter's got murdered at the wall you know like Philly Philly's very Philly accents

[01:10:39] very similar a little a little very similar but yeah but but they didn't want it so and I thought like you know for me it seemed like everyone was doing their version you know Clark was doing

[01:10:49] Philly he was he was doing his version of Urban I was doing I just leaned into my New York a lot more because I thought like especially you know at that point because of like the City Limit movies and

[01:10:59] those kinds of things your sense of like an urban gritty cop really was sort of that New York accent so that's what we did I mean you obviously had guest people come in who had

[01:11:09] Baltimore accents and it's such a cool fun accent but we didn't we didn't do it because they didn't want it hmm interesting you did a pretty good on that clip I heard the other

[01:11:17] day though more trod yeah yeah it's not because it was gonna be great because it's like another world it's a whole another world I actually taught Tom Hanks how to how to speak with a Baltimore accent

[01:11:29] so there you go that's pretty there you go and it is and it is uh it's it's it's it takes a while for people that aren't from here to get it right and people that try to and don't get it right

[01:11:41] it's really sort of false flat yeah you don't know you want to get that right yeah it interesting that they that they didn't they didn't want to go there I understand that makes sense quick process question because I'm uh Mr trying to be a director and obsessed with

[01:11:56] process and work of actors I mean like what was sort of like a typical day like for you on homicides um I'm always interested about like because you had a lot of pages to film and

[01:12:07] as an actor kind of going through all that um and sort of trying to kind of capture nuances of the character that over necessarily rushing and I'm just fascinated by all that yeah the process was

[01:12:19] I mean obviously the scripts the scripts were spectacular right the scripts were spectacular and here's another thing that was unique to homicide and I've literally never had it again in my entire career so we all had mailboxes in the office and everyone worked in the office

[01:12:33] was delightful it was a yeah I still like I still Kathy Kurtz had above her desk a lack of planning on your part is does not constitute an emergency on mine I've never forgotten that it's like my

[01:12:42] favorite quote ever you know and then Finnerty's office where we all spent many hours but we all had these mailboxes and on the day you started an episode start shooting an episode the next

[01:12:53] episode script was in your mailbox I've never had that before so you had a week to prepare you had a um and I think I think we shot eight-day episodes but um and it was so funny because

[01:13:06] you know this is before cell phones anything like that I was so excited when the next script came out that I would literally go into the stairs in the back of the office like where the

[01:13:15] copy machine was and I would furiously read the script because something maybe you don't know everything was top secret no one knew what was going to happen to your character um people would

[01:13:25] try to get information I remember Melissa was dogged in trying to find out what your arc was going to be on that show because here's the other thing like I say it was an ensemble

[01:13:35] of incredibly talented actors um you know arguably Andre I would say was the lead of the show but the rest of us we were people were fighting for storylines right everyone wanted a juicy storyline

[01:13:48] and I could remember how competitive it would be and people were really gunning for stuff and they get pissed off if you got something good or they didn't and and I remember when I first got there

[01:13:59] like uh I remember Melissa peppery's like hey has Tom told you anything and I was like hey told me a little bit and he's like don't tell her what I told you like it was like everyone was like

[01:14:07] you know that's top secret so I had like a little inkling of what was gonna happen so for then I I kept it I kept mum about everything but I was so excited to read the next script and find out

[01:14:15] what's gonna happen on the show and what was gonna happen to my character I would sit there in the office and read those episodes and I can't tell you how many times because we didn't have

[01:14:23] cell phones but there was a phone right there on the landing on the stairs I would call the writer's office to say how excited and thank you I would I would call Tom and like oh thank you

[01:14:32] thank you for giving me this is so amazing I'm so excited to do this I remember calling David Simon when the Luther Mahoney shooting episode came because here's another thing that made you homicide

[01:14:45] unique and didn't happen on network television I thanked him so much I was like oh my god you've just thrown me into the the most gray morally ambivalent area and and that's the most homicide

[01:14:55] thing I could think of and I love it I was like thank you thank you man um and uh but uh on a network television show your leads don't do morally ambivalent and or ambiguous things right you're good guys are

[01:15:10] your good guys and your bad guys are your bad guys and that's another thing that made this show so special and so unique on television story arcs were amazing the story arcs yeah so you know

[01:15:21] so and and it was such a gift because as an actor as an actor I don't know my the act kind of actor but I am or aspire to be and continue to aspire to be like I like it gritty I like it I like you

[01:15:33] know I'm I'm a check off fan I don't want it all spelled out right I want to know that I want the layers and it was always there what I did I would I would furiously read those things so

[01:15:41] you talk about process so anyway so we have the scripts to prepare everyone was prepared um and then we would show up now you know the other thing that made the show unique was you

[01:15:53] had directors you knew but then you had directors who had never directed a second of television right and he might and he might only be there once I mean we had the people that were back six

[01:16:01] and eight times but there were directors that were only there once yeah and I remember my first year the the sort of newbie directors would sort of pick me out at the in the lunch room

[01:16:10] where we're having lunch because I seem like the least scary person to talk to and I and I definitely was at least I was the least scary cast member so I remember I remember I remember

[01:16:20] Whit Stillman coming up and Whit Stillman directed Matt Paulson Redd or Barcelona and those those and he was young and and and he which was so cool that all these people were

[01:16:29] coming in and we can talk about all the fun directors but I remember he's like hey read do you have any advice and I was like yes I do I have some advice I go when you step on that

[01:16:37] set on Monday morning whatever it is and because I knew it was like a scene with Melissa and Yafet I go don't tell them where to go ask them where they want to go don't say like you

[01:16:46] enter from here you enter from here like you just and I go if you do that you know you make Melissa and Yafet feel heard everything's gonna go fine I remember I'm in that scene right and he steps

[01:16:57] on said he's like all right Melissa you coming from here Yafet and boom boom two doors slam and those fuckers are down in their trailers and like it took like two hours to get them back

[01:17:06] and I was like dude I told you one thing you had one thing to do don't block the scene until you ask the actors what they want to do but you know for me it wasn't you know it wasn't really

[01:17:16] like that it was you know I mean that was funny there were a lot of people who not a lot of people there were few people the two I mentioned who often if they were upset would leave

[01:17:26] and just be standing there with the crew and like oh I guess we're well we'll see what happens in Jimmy come and someone have to be talked to and brought back up but um with Clark no

[01:17:35] no me for most of the stuff like it was just sort of it was so natural the way we blocked it and we as you said like Susan I love that talking about like no one showed up at like crew call and got

[01:17:45] your stuff unpacked everyone was ready to go and you know and and it felt that it was really exciting and the fast-pacedness of it I loved and I just loved I mean the handheld was gorgeous you

[01:17:59] know this also if I want to like slam NYPD blue and more time like we literally were handheld trying not to be handheld and they you know that's when they started putting like a little bottle

[01:18:06] on the fucking camera and maybe that's I'm like we're not trying to do that right but it was so exciting and natural I just always remember it feeling um for them I'd remember the blocking portion being

[01:18:20] really natural you'd have all these really good actors you know if it was seen with a bunch of us you know Andre had good ideas and and Kyle you know we'd all just sort of we'd feel it and

[01:18:28] also here's the other thing that's so special about this show is there were no sets right so the squad room is a squad room it's not there's it's not we're not on stage so your desk is where your

[01:18:40] desk is and you're you so you're acting in a real space and then the rest of the time we're really in it and I can't tell you what a difference that makes for the verisimilitude

[01:18:50] but also just the naturalness of it so it was so exciting to be on the streets or in the crack-outs or walking along the harbor um the the the the blocking sort of often took care of itself

[01:19:01] unless it was something very technical you know a stunt or a shooting and then John was just so natural and it was so you know you talked about what was like to dance around the camera and you

[01:19:12] asked about that and that was essential to it because it created a different energy and I loved it because I'll tell you I'll tell you you know when you do traditional coverage

[01:19:23] people just check out for your for your takes often or they upstage you if they go last there's there's a lot of and you know and I almost believe like I said like I'm Ernest Little Ensemble

[01:19:33] player I'm like hey man we all got it's we all boats rise together we are I'm gonna be great for your off camera we're all it's gonna like make the scene better than anyone could have

[01:19:40] imagined but with keeping it so alive like that it was just always exciting yeah and there was no off camera right I mean you said there was no off camera you said earlier there

[01:19:50] weren't any close-ups so there weren't any set ups as close-ups but the idea that the camera constantly moved and could push in at any time for like a super close-up oh yeah um and you

[01:20:01] you as an actor don't know you know you don't know if you know at what beat of your dialogue there's gonna be a camera that maybe at the moment across the room and all of a sudden

[01:20:14] John is on you and pushing into you because he knows you know there's a dramatic beat there that he wants to capture so yeah it was yeah must have been interesting yeah for you guys because

[01:20:26] like Tom said you had to stay on your toes because who knew had to say well John too and he even mentioned it my favorite thing was watching him because he was able to keep his other eye open

[01:20:36] right so he would do this thing he would do this thing where he's got one eye you know in the optic or the lens whatever the thing whatever you call it I'm eyepiece eyepiece thank you very

[01:20:46] much and then his other eye was open looking for shit and it was I was like how do you even do this but like I say and I've said this a billion times the hardest job on that show was boots

[01:20:57] absolutely I don't know how he did it because we didn't have boots didn't have a monitor he had just he was pulling focus boots was our focus puller the amazing focus puller and he

[01:21:07] pulled that focus he'd make little you know little you know wax pencil marks on there but he never knew where John was going to point the camera and keep that thing sharp I

[01:21:17] had always been oh my god and boots you know I just remember boots is like sweating and getting this measuring tape out but like and but that was really exciting to have John finding stuff and in

[01:21:29] the moment and it was a it was an amazing space to play in so that process was really exciting exacter because as I think Tom articulated this that no one had a chance to get bored like there's

[01:21:40] nothing worse than sitting in your trailer for nine hours right like I like being on set I like doing it um and and as you said Susan you know we shot you know 365 no matter what the weather

[01:21:50] was right so those were there were some you know you were in the rain you were in the snow you were soaked through you know you every once in a while you'd remember that the dead body on

[01:21:59] the street was actually a human and maybe get him up you know in January uh because you know you've seen people turn blue um but I the I love the pace of it I also loved having John as

[01:22:14] you know a co-player in the scene right so he was an amazing director so you know when he started directing it was so easy to work with him and so much fun but also just knowing

[01:22:24] he's looking out and he's finding the good bits um and it just gave and I remember Tom had articulated the philosophy of the show was on other shows you know the the actors move and I hate that the

[01:22:36] actors have to move to create energy in the scene um I mean it's you know it's the law and order you know cliche of who's gonna stack boxes when a homicide detective is asking you

[01:22:46] questions right you're not there's you're gonna if a homicide detective has a question for you like that this may be the most important interrogation of your life you're gonna stop what you're doing but they always try to keep on network TV often when you're doing a show

[01:22:57] they try to have the actor move to put energy into the scene and he's like no no I'm gonna move the camera so the actors can stand still and that's cutting edge too right like that's

[01:23:07] you know and the fact that we shot in 16 you know that's not it wasn't necessarily what TV was going for so but if no but that's also from you know we felt like we were making independent

[01:23:18] movie every week yeah right and that was so exciting I was at the only place I wanted to be now the only thing that was hard about the pace I was just thinking about this as I saw so many

[01:23:29] I've forgotten how many people I was like oh my god I did a scene with you like actors I love and I was like my god we did a scene because we move so fast the second you were done

[01:23:38] with a scene you had to go on to the next one so there wasn't any of the what there often wasn't time if an actor was in one scene where you could be like hey man oh let's get together

[01:23:47] you know they'd be on the train back to New York or whatever right so that that was the only thing where you couldn't be like oh I love doing that with you thanks man

[01:23:54] you had to like sort of get your head on you know game on and move on to the next scene but um but as you said so articulately Susan like we did 12 hour days right which is also unheard of

[01:24:05] and everyone has no one will forget you know Jimmy Fender to come down and tap in his watch and you knew that we were I spotted a reference to that in an episode if they were oh yeah

[01:24:15] comes out says like I just watched that one have a heart tap does what no have a conscience have a conscience that's it have a good exactly brilliant have a conscience no there's it right because well that's the one too is that one too or he says to

[01:24:28] me like that's the one where he's like there's a haiku of red and black and you've upset the balance on the board oh and I was like oh I love I mean the writing here's the other thing

[01:24:37] too that I mean I can never stop talking about how great the writer writing was um but it's also it didn't occur to me as much until I rewatch these episodes there's a lot of prose

[01:24:47] but there's a lot of verse there's a lot of poetry in the writing that I I guess I was aware a lot of rhythm a lot of rhythm in the dialogue and that was always that was John's direction

[01:24:58] always like faster faster funnier uh press and surges take out the pauses the um the sort of in jokes like the tapping the watch and saying have a conscience and one of the episodes

[01:25:11] um where um I guess it was a it was a beginning it was at the beginning of the fire episode where Richard Belzer and Melissa Leo are on the upstairs on the top of the wreck pier outside

[01:25:22] and they see the smoke but before that I think it's in that episode they're talking about why Danny Baldwin and and Ned Beatty aren't on the show anymore because you know they were called with their pants down basically at the policemen's convention

[01:25:38] but um one of them says you know and they were suspended for 22 weeks and I never got that joke before and and they're like 22 weeks like why would you pick 22 weeks and it obviously was a reference

[01:25:53] to the fact that they were not going to be on the show that year they were not going to be there for 22 episodes and then I think the throwaway line was something like well you know they don't

[01:26:03] know what they're doing or something like that that you know was a was a reference to um yeah to the to the number of episodes and whether we were going to be picked up or whatever but that was

[01:26:12] that was that was funny there's another funny yafet story in that first in that fire story you know yafet had a specific hair system for the first few seasons of the show

[01:26:24] and in my first in those fire episodes he was going to go natural um and uh so Tom wrote in all his things which now you see that don't quite make sense in the fire episode where he's

[01:26:35] like gee have you lost weight something's different about you but uh when he arrived in Baltimore he got off the plane with his new hair system and he said to Tom famously was like

[01:26:43] Tom it's a miracle my hair's grown back and uh but uh yeah it was a good system for the rest of the uh for the rest of the show I have a quick question to circle back not that I should

[01:26:55] circle back because it's good we're you know a lot of stuff to talk about okay um when you mentioned um that the actors didn't know when talking about process you guys didn't know your

[01:27:06] storyline ahead of time because I was watching some of the episodes last night and thinking about you specifically because we were going to talk to you today um and the episodes that lead up to the Mahoney shooting where obviously your psychology and your emotion about him just keeps

[01:27:23] getting ramped up and ramped up and ramped up so that by the time you get you know into his penthouse apartment and he has a gun on you know he's taking Clark's gun and he has a gun on Clark

[01:27:35] it makes so much sense that he's just like I'm done with you pal I mean you know oh yeah because of the build up of the emotions did you have any and I was trying to watch in the earlier episodes

[01:27:45] I was wondering if you knew like in the episode uh the same episode but where everything falls apart and um Luther shoots one of his henchmen you know in Druid Lake Park um you know if you knew

[01:28:00] what that was going to lead up to and I guess at that point it was the same episode but did you did you if you didn't make this really complicated of you didn't know the future storyline

[01:28:11] well did you have any sense that that was going to happen because of the sort of ramping up of not just his emotionality about it but that whole thing talking about you know when when Luther has

[01:28:24] the Korean grocery store owner murdered right and in all the speeches about honor which also reflect how you feel about your job and how you feel about your dad did any of that telegraph to you

[01:28:38] that something was going to break between not some other character and Luther but specifically between you and Luther no it's I mean the writing was genius and I was thinking about this

[01:28:52] yeah yesterday you know obviously as we said I came here under false pretenses right I was here to be the hunky you know uh kissy face guy and and and in fact you know I went from you know they

[01:29:04] wrote that monologue for me in the first you know part two like fun is my god and then quickly things shifted and the in the genius of that writing they so piled stuff on so I knew I knew

[01:29:18] at the beginning of season five right that there was going to be this arson investigation I thought this is great but you know the I mean because one of my most favorite episodes was the first

[01:29:27] Luther episode in season four that I guess it was that damage done right and I think so right and uh it was that was really cool where it was things were starting to break and he was

[01:29:40] getting frustrated and then with the the arson thing just piling on and then like I said when I read when David because Simon wrote the episode where I shoot Luther and

[01:29:50] I was just like thank you but it was it was a total surprise and I couldn't believe they gave it to me and I knew that I knew we'd opened up a can of worms that we couldn't eventually we

[01:29:59] actually couldn't write ourselves out of and that's how you know Tom and I agreed to sort of give him a transition out because it was um but I was like this is a gift and that's

[01:30:08] also what I loved about the show is the risks they were willing to take and sometimes things didn't work right sometimes you were gonna they were gonna you throw something against the wall and maybe

[01:30:19] it didn't pan out but look Mike Kellerman is the greatest character I've ever had the great good fortune to portray and I love that things just kept getting heat upon him and then that

[01:30:30] journey was inevitable and and feels like it was um preordained it's funny um you know talking about how people were concerned that I think I was going to destroy the show when I showed up um

[01:30:42] the Baltimore Sun when my the fire episodes aired was particularly um uh unhappy with my arrival and and I remember uh they wrote I'll never forget because you never forget your bad reviews

[01:30:55] they referred to me as the thick-necked read diamond and I kid you not and then and there there was a cartoon a caricature of the cast and everyone else looked like themselves and they drew me like I was like moose from the Archie comics like some 300 pound defensive

[01:31:15] you know football player and and I was like and I go and now in retrospect I get oh yeah you thought I was gonna ruin your show and then cut to by the end this character because no one

[01:31:25] knew Tom no one had planned when I showed up that Kellerman's gonna have this arc but then because of the marriage of their genius with sort of my intentions and my sort of persistence

[01:31:34] to not do kissy face we got into this character had this journey that no one could foresee and then I remember to bookend that when I left the show because Andre and I left the same time

[01:31:44] where he takes me into the box and I have to resign the force and blah blah blah it's the Baltimore Sun wrote like a glowing like multiple page spread on how how Kellerman was one of

[01:31:53] the most interesting characters on television the show might never be the same but I'm like you fuckers hated me when I showed up and but I love that because that's the thing that's no one

[01:32:01] knows and and the the the aliveness of that show was you know as as as I'm sure other people have noted I mean obviously if things were going on in your personal life throughout the show they might

[01:32:15] find their way into the scripts right and sort of certain that happened with Danny going through divorce care goes through you know there's things like that that would happen in your personal life that would find their way into the scripts or sometimes people would have things

[01:32:26] as like Kyle was pursuing Buddhism or he I know he pitched those ideas like hey it wouldn't be need of this if my character did that and they were open to that I I never pitched anything

[01:32:38] and uh and I was very grateful and and still to this day so so grateful that the the trials of Kellerman they weren't fun right here's this amazing every you know

[01:32:50] it uh but they weren't fun for him they were fun for me to play and it was and and like I say I would call I would just like I'd be like thank you thank you for allowing me to do this yeah yeah

[01:33:02] one I suppose other process he kind of thinks he took about the days or 12 hour days and it's a so it's and is in eight days block but I think you have the weekends off is that right how's

[01:33:14] that kind of work sort of sort of well I gotta jump in there as a crew member yeah go you had the weekend off but you know you you might have worked until you know like two o'clock in the morning

[01:33:27] or four o'clock in the morning into Saturday oh no so then you know you really maybe had a half a day Saturday where you were coherent and then Sunday you're trying to do your laundry

[01:33:39] it was a wash oh yeah because what would happen and you know the reason why that happened was you would start Monday with day work so Monday exactly at 7 a.m. and you'd have day work but usually by

[01:33:49] Wednesday the call would go from somewhere like 7 a.m. on Monday by Wednesday it might be 1 p.m. and then by Friday it might be 4 p.m. you know or 5 p.m. right so then you're working

[01:34:01] and you know you definitely are working into your Saturday but obviously you know it's a cop show and people get killed at night and so you know it had to have a lot of night work yeah

[01:34:10] yeah so we did have weekends off but they were truncated weekend yeah well how do you how do you so with that kind of schedule how do you a not get ill and b how do you so maintain your energy

[01:34:22] levels because I'm oh yeah oh oh Chris I got so ill so this is where like so the thing about being an actor is I always say this like unless you're trapped underneath the vehicle you have to show

[01:34:37] up to work right oh my god I think it was I would say yeah the damage done right that's the first Luther Mahoney one right yeah he wrote I was I was so sick I should have been in a hospital

[01:34:50] and and I remember and I was just like I gotta go to work um and so you did this oh god you brought up another member I mean I was so sick like I got conjunct

[01:35:01] everything was going wrong and I was like and then we're out there in the rain and you know it's though it's it's cold and but you're like you just you just do it at one point I I live down a

[01:35:13] fells point so this yeah so this has to be the first season because I moved away after because we can talk about the uh the triangle of drinking uh go studio uh tem street coopers then home um but

[01:35:24] yeah so I finally but the first year I was walking my dog and I sprained my ankle and the next day I was walking my dog and I sprained the other ankle so I had two sprained ankles and I was

[01:35:36] and I just I they'd given me a pair of like Doc Martin boots and I just remember lacing the shit out of them and as tight as they could be and I would just I was like yeah you gotta go to

[01:35:44] work and I had to run I ran in them with two sprained ankles so it was uh uh you know there was no there was no rest there was no days off you couldn't be sick um you just were sick and

[01:35:55] people were sick all the time you know we just you know that crew crud would just go around and you pass it from one person to the next yeah and the thing about being a crew member that

[01:36:05] is a little different from being an actor because they're not going to replace you if you're sick one day but as a crew member like we that we were all freelance people you know we were

[01:36:15] quote unquote full-time you know studio employees we were freelancers so you know there was always the fear if I'm sick somebody they're gonna make a phone call and they're gonna bring in another camera assistant or another grip or grip or another electrician and you don't want somebody

[01:36:31] doing your job that might end up staying you know so it often was you know the um you know you didn't you didn't want it you didn't want to take a day off but also you also didn't

[01:36:43] want that responsibility you don't want to call your you know your your your crew leader and say you know you got to replace me tomorrow because then that becomes a burden on them then they're on

[01:36:54] the phone trying to get somebody for the next morning while you're still trying to work so it definitely yeah that's one thing about the film business I don't know if the

[01:37:02] outside world understands is that you you really felt like you could not stay home when you got sick you really felt like you couldn't and I think too you know talking about process and and and the

[01:37:14] endurance race the other thing is I keep saying this was a 22 episode series so you were there for nine months out of the year and I always remember I Susan I'm curious what you think by the time

[01:37:24] you got to the last two months everyone was pretty just destroyed just destroyed and it could be and things would go you know bad behavior would definitely skyrocket and you know motions and

[01:37:40] tempers were frayed by the end and you were just holding on and it's interesting too because sometimes it would be the the most tantalizing episodes would come near the end and you just

[01:37:50] had to like find another gear to to get in there but you know we were so lucky to do it that I mean there was you know I guess some people gave up but it was that but I just remember

[01:38:02] there would be like when you get to episode 20 it was pretty ugly yeah because it was like super burnout I mean you really super burnout drink like lots of caffeine lots of bad food

[01:38:18] oh my god yeah just to try to get those crazy remember those crazy frozen drinks from the Daily Grind Susan there was like it had like like four shots of espresso cream and I called

[01:38:30] granita thank you yeah the granitas there you go oh my god frozen coffee they were amazing so is this the Baltimore delicacy that kept you going oh it was it was essential but they were very expensive

[01:38:41] and none of us were highly paid and uh I remember I had like a limit like I you know I can only have four granitas a day and because but they were so good in the Daily Grind that was like

[01:38:52] that was our daytime haunt and then of course you know Timestreet Cooper's was our nighttime haunt but yeah those granitas kept you going because you start out a bushy tail except that was like I

[01:39:02] said it was you'd come there in July you know the end of July and it was just 100 humidity and miserable and you had to do these photo shoots but everyone was rested hopefully by the time you

[01:39:11] got back um but then yeah we'd wear down but we made great episodes um you know uh I mean the crew was the crew was exceptional I mean this is a good point moment to talk about

[01:39:21] I mean this is everyone was so good and so happy to be there and we were um you know after after everyone knew I wasn't going to ruin the show I got along great with everybody and because I do

[01:39:32] I remember even people on the crew like no this guy's gonna ruin the show but uh and the drivers and you know Ford and just it was just a really tight tight little group and everyone was so

[01:39:44] skilled and and um uh you know definitely the best crew I've ever worked with right it was just everyone and and people were getting obviously getting opportunities maybe everyone was bumping

[01:39:54] up a little bit and it was did we have that day where people changed their jobs or bumped up one Susan did that happen like when you got to bump up a level I don't remember but we'll ask somebody

[01:40:06] else we'll ask that we'll ask her when we get from hoping to get uh Frank and some of the ADs on yeah definitely ask them but uh yeah but yeah we the the schedule was grueling but

[01:40:17] but by having 12 hour days that's huge because that doesn't happen anymore I mean every show I'm on you're doing 20 hour days and you know how do you maintain your energy level with that then the 20

[01:40:26] hour days it's so dangerous it's stupid and it shouldn't be like you know because what happened was at some point in the early 2000s they just dropped a day off all the schedules and then

[01:40:34] somehow on the books you know the corporate books I mean you know whatever I'm talking about my butt but it's I've been told that it it looks better to do you know multiple over times than

[01:40:43] have an extra day on the show but it was diminishing returns and we always got the work you know it was we always got such incredible shots and and and and you know and obviously John was talking about like

[01:40:56] you know holding that camera Alex holding the camera I mean that's that's intense but we knew we were making something special so despite everything everyone was always excited yeah and I think too like let's talk about Baltimore for a second yeah because yeah Baltimore

[01:41:12] so special right like that's also to have made a tv show on location that wasn't happening right you're and there's nothing like being there on the streets of of just this exceptional unique

[01:41:27] city um you can't do that on the the New York lot at Fox right it's just not the same or downtown LA it just doesn't feel the same and when Baltimore is a is a character on the show

[01:41:38] right um and Baltimore benefited in some way right it benefited from not you know doing well economically at some point so the highway didn't come through Fel's point and you kept all of these

[01:41:50] incredible um this architecture and there's no other city in the world that or in the city in the United States it looks like Baltimore and there's so much great architecture I was

[01:41:59] so my first season there um they gave you a small stipend you had to find a house quickly and I found a beautiful row house just three blocks over like on Bond Street um the other side of

[01:42:08] Broadway from the 1700s a row house from the 1700s right there wood wood and uh got an amazing rent and it was just gorgeous and there were so many cool so much cool architecture and and uh

[01:42:21] and that character was essential to the show yeah and yeah and people have talked about too obviously the cast was amazing the guest cast was amazing the local guest cast was amazing Pat was incredible passing the director yeah amazing but the other thing that was really unique

[01:42:36] and really made the show special was our background everyone all the guys in the squad room they were there all the time they were the same guys so our background were permanent so we we

[01:42:49] all knew each other we were all friends we all hung out together and it gave it that level of they had characters they knew who they were you know for me as an actor the thing that will

[01:42:59] take me out of a shot immediately is if the background's not in the same scene as the as the actors and and and I always as an actor want to include the background and bring them into the

[01:43:10] scene and we just had and sometimes they get lines and they'd bump up but they were just there every day so you you really felt like you at all times because you were there if the

[01:43:21] squad room was a real place and when you were on location you were in the crack house or you run it down that alley and it you were really there and even like when they added a set remember

[01:43:30] when they added the workout room yes you know the work out would actually go in there and work out I mean yeah it was a real room I wish I could remember his name I think it was one of the

[01:43:40] background extras oh gosh I wish I could remember his name taught me how to use the speed bag in there so I know how to use a speed bag because one of the extras one of the cop extras you know

[01:43:49] would be in there working out I mean some of my most favorite scenes on the show were in the workout room and then we went to the bank for a little while even though it was a built you know

[01:43:57] it was a built set everything was permanent I think somebody mentioned this on one of the earlier episodes you know on a normal soundstage where you build sets you can fly everything out the

[01:44:05] walls go out the ceilings go out everything moves um and so that at some point you're shooting with an exposed obviously the the the viewers don't see it but the crew and the cast especially

[01:44:19] who are working in this environment see off the set right they see that it's not real exactly you flown a wall out well we did that didn't exist on homicide so even though it was a built set inside

[01:44:34] of the banquet room um you know in the rec pier upstairs which you were talking earlier about I think something I watched the other day where you talked about having visited that and gone up

[01:44:44] in the banquet room which is now this incredibly beautiful space exactly even though it was a built set nothing moved so it felt absolutely real it didn't feel fake it didn't look fake you know

[01:44:56] kudos to to the set dresser's set designer Vince perennial and his his people yeah Vincent Jean that stuff did not look like a television set ever nothing in that show ever looked

[01:45:06] like a set yeah no and it and so then you know because for me you know with acting the you're trying to make it as real as possible so the less things you have to pretend and make up

[01:45:17] the better and so you're yeah we that squad room we knew were desk because you said I I stayed there I stayed now at the Pendry hotel which the the pier has turned into right my friend I can't afford

[01:45:26] to stay there either you mentioned that oh dude I can't afford to say that to my buddy who's dr. Kim Hammond from Falls Road Animal Hospital he put me on so you gotta stay there that's

[01:45:34] where I take my cats oh yes so I met sure I know him he's treated my cats before I don't know well he's he's the best I got him as I got him a background in a scene because we

[01:45:44] became friends while I was shooting there and we've been best friends ever since but he's like you gotta stay there and you gotta take your family there so beautiful yeah it was crazy

[01:45:52] though because we're I'm having breakfast with my wife and my daughter and I'm going this is where our trailers were you know we're downstairs in the garage and then and then I like I walked

[01:46:00] into the bank room as you said and I go that's where my desk was there was Clark's desk there was here that's where the board was it was having like a wedding rehearsal in there but it was

[01:46:09] just wild to go back and walk up the stairs with these you know the stairs we'd always have the barn father scenes on those stairs and it was just wild to be back and see how much has stayed

[01:46:20] the same so it was it was really lovely to stay there yes I can't afford there so thank you thank you and also so cool like you said that uh it that they that they restored the building that

[01:46:31] the building still exists that is still there it could very easily and in many other in many other cities could very easily even before homicide was shot um have been destroyed because

[01:46:42] it sat there for many years empty um yeah and used so the fact that it was saved you know kudos to the city and to whoever the pendry people are for for doing that for keeping it but we have to get

[01:46:55] that plaque back up somebody said that they took the plaque down that says this is where the show homicide was shot yeah that's a bummer I got I took a picture of that plaque yeah

[01:47:04] yeah they better plaque back up come on man apparently the homicide board's in a bar somewhere I'd say that's still the case but yeah had you heard that read and not like and not like the

[01:47:14] not the waterfront or well we got kicked out of the water but not coopers I think it's somewhere else do you know where yeah someone told me where it was I can't remember I think they

[01:47:24] because there were sales afterword you could go buy props and and um wardrobe and that kind of so exciting yeah picked up some stuff so funny it's funny because we were you know talking about

[01:47:36] the unique period of time we were in and how unusual the show was um the other thing that it was the sort of beginning of internet communities and we had an internet community basically at the time there was an ex files community and there was a homicide community

[01:47:52] I remember I used to lurk on it because you want to see like do they like me to like what I did in that show and then I remember once they I saw that they were going to have like a little

[01:48:01] convention or you're all going to get together at the waterfront and I saw the date and I was like I'm going to show up and so I showed up and there was like you know 10 people who've come to

[01:48:10] you know from this online homicide community and I do you want to see the sets and like yeah so I took them up and showed them the board and got pictures with all of them in front of

[01:48:18] the board it was pretty fun yeah we used to have a lot of tourists come by and and also was somebody in town that did homicide tours that would you know take people drive I guess in a bus

[01:48:29] to to the locations where I get you know some of the more famous scenes or shootings or you know oh that's yeah it makes sense yeah well what about after homicide you've been working with

[01:48:42] Clark Johnson he's directed you on a few things like the shield swats um I think my memory of you in SWAT was you were a vegan cop there was some joke about you eating exactly some tofu

[01:48:53] yes that's it that's it I remember that man what was that like working with him beyond homicide well yeah so let's you know Clark I love Clark backwards and forwards right now as I said earlier

[01:49:04] when we became partners that's when I sort of found my legs 100% and also I also feel when he directed that really changed things too because he's such a great director and and everyone loved him right and you if you remember he he's do the he did that Christmas

[01:49:22] those Christmas videos because he always had his bolex camera with him right he was always filming stuff no that's yeah and so he was a great director because he I can see it too

[01:49:34] I was watching one of the episodes that um I think was map of the heart um and uh where I like the lunch bandit episodes where I'm trying to find the guy who's stealing my lunch I remember this now

[01:49:45] and I remember at the time I think I was like oh how under he's got the seriously do I'm doing the lunch bandit but I'm like oh thank god I did the lunch band it was the best and you know there's

[01:49:53] some scene in the gym that you're talking about with me and Melissa and I'm showing her how to throw punch but you could see that Clark's directing because you can see all the actors

[01:50:00] are just a little more comfortable and a little more playful and he brought that out he I really felt like I found the character even more when he directed and then I was able to

[01:50:11] sort of carry that through because he encouraged he knew what we were capable of he had such a great sensibility and he was so fun so loved I mean you know his famous Clark Johnson

[01:50:21] thing that he would do in and out and say hey today's my birthday and everyone would buy him drinks he's like it wasn't his birthday right they'd buy him drinks that night I mean

[01:50:27] he was he was a jokester and he was he was such an amazing guy right he was an incredible father you know his daughters you know meek and Cassandra were always there and he was such a good dad

[01:50:38] and but also once once he got over once he realized I wasn't there to destroy his show we became really good friends and hung out a lot it was sort of me and me and bells and Clark

[01:50:50] that was that was the majority of my of my group with the cast and we do a lot of things together and bells took really good care of me and sort of Henry Brumell and his wife Trish

[01:50:59] and Finnerty I mean Finnerty if it wasn't for Finnerty because he early on you know well he he got all the fish fishing stuff inserted into the into the show but then he would take me deep

[01:51:09] sea fishing and I'd catch tuna's and I spent you know nights out on the boat with him right the boat yeah it was really special and yeah because he was like a he was such a right

[01:51:21] Joni exactly exactly right exactly and he was we'd be out there and she just be they were the most incongruous couple and so in love with each other it was fantastic right

[01:51:31] and and then he was just one of those guys where you know you wanted to make Jim I wanted to make Jimmy Finnerty happy and he was just he'd seen it all you knew he had your back but also

[01:51:42] he wasn't going to put up with any bullshit and but uh but yeah working with Clark so on the show we really formed a strong bond and I was I fell in love with him in fact

[01:51:54] at a certain point I think it was very difficult to disassociate myself from the character as it went on and and I had a hard time when um when Meldrick and joined with Stivers and sort of

[01:52:07] abandoned Kellerman and and I in a weird way I thought ah I didn't buy it right not that I didn't buy it I didn't want to buy it I was like oh I thought he would have been loyal to

[01:52:17] me but it was incredibly painful and then we didn't get to work together that much on the sixth season because we it broke up the partnership which was cool because then it gave me the opportunity

[01:52:26] to work with Belzer who I love and so we got to do cottage and we got to do the stuff at the Camden Yards and and and Belzer I mean talking about heroes I had I got one as a teenager

[01:52:39] just Belzer's book on how to be a stand-up comedian and I haven't in hard cover still oh and that guy was just he was so smart and so funny and so unique and uh oh that's funny I'll

[01:52:52] tell you that's just a little anecdote too before it was a Clark anecdote about finding the character so because Belzer had such a clear character his conspiracy stuff which was what was which

[01:53:03] was what he was interested in and I'm glad that kind of incorporated in the show and he I learned so much political things that I still quote to this day I learned from Richard Belzer like he

[01:53:11] was such a smart smart guy right but anyway so early on I'm trying to find my character we haven't haven't found him yet I'm trying things and I can see like I say in fire I can see the scenes at land

[01:53:21] and I can see the scenes where I'm really trying to to to get there and and per you know Andre and I'd gone to school together and we both trained at the same place so I remember watching Andre and

[01:53:31] I would go I go he's he articulates each word and he gets the last consonant in there and I was like I can do that we had the same training and I remember I'm gonna see him with Clark and I

[01:53:41] was like I said something like get against the wall I did it like I did like and Clark's like what the fuck are you doing man I was like I go I go I know I just wanted to try it's like yeah

[01:53:51] don't do that he's like you know what you're doing just do your thing and it was really important he's like just do your thing yeah I was like okay because I thought if I was like more like Andre

[01:54:00] I get like more Andre stuff to do but he quickly disabused me of that but then so funny working with him as a director afterwards was so great so the shield thing was really interesting

[01:54:10] because after homicide it was a hard experience in many ways um in that like it was an intense experience creatively and on set and with the personalities and then my personal life was just

[01:54:25] I was young I started 28 I I grew up a lot on that show and like what I say like why I didn't sleep last night it's there's I didn't figure things out then but the things that the

[01:54:38] questions that came up and the struggles that I went through and the things that I learned about myself sort of propelled me on to the next stage of my life so there's it's not a job it was a

[01:54:47] place where I grew up as a man and grew up as an actor and there were things it's interesting you know part of me was like oh you know all actors do this but I go I wish I could go back

[01:54:56] and I wish I could have done this but it couldn't have gone any other way it was it had to be that way and so it was an intense place and there was a lot of like I say there was huge egos and

[01:55:09] and very intense people because everyone was so talented um but there was a degree of I'm gonna try to find the the exact right word for this it wasn't chaos it was um an intentional yes it was controlled chaos it was controlled cast and it was intentional

[01:55:27] and I always heard um I think Tom might have even told me this one night you know that that he liked the the the prickliness of it the that it that it made a better show that people but by the

[01:55:41] tensions amongst the actors themselves and between there was definitely there were two camps between the writers and the actors and there was always for lack of a better word there was a fomented sort of us versus them um uh dynamic that happened in those years and obviously

[01:55:59] you know prior to me getting there there was some really intense stuff going on with actors and and I and I I learned because I was a collector of the stories basically no one from NBC was coming

[01:56:08] out so as long as the episode got handed in time it didn't matter that you couldn't find an actor for a week if you could find him you know wherever you you know he was hiding out and you

[01:56:16] could get a scene shot you know NBC was none the wiser and I and um but I remember and and you know as we said we talked about the the triangle of work all day go across drink all night everyone

[01:56:27] drank together and then you know go home rinse repeat and I can't tell you how many times there was dancing happening too and there was wrestling do you remember the wrestling Susan

[01:56:37] because I can't tell you I remember one crew member in particular that that at a certain alcohol level would begin to wrestle people there was a lot of names though well I I can't tell you how

[01:56:48] many times like yosh with that certain point yosh would challenge me to wrestle and like we'd be on the floor of coopers just rolling around in stale beer and that was part of like and I loved

[01:56:58] it and it was and it was prickly and it was crispy and I like that um you know we were talking off camera we were talking about some directors from the old school Chris and Susan

[01:57:07] and I were talking about but what I liked about that show as I said like no one was like hey welcome kumbaya welcome to the show like it was intense and like you better prove yourself

[01:57:16] and I like that and because it did create a really good dynamic I remember and I tell the story affectionately all the time Tom Fontana if I if I had to do an emotional scene or

[01:57:26] big scene he'd walk right before we'd shoot it he just walked by he's like don't fuck it up and and I loved it because it was it was that competitiveness because he said it out of affection

[01:57:37] like if he was worried that I was going to mess it up he wouldn't have said that he knew I could handle but it got me like to another level right I was like oh yeah I'm going to show you like

[01:57:45] and I liked it because it was sort of that the dynamic that you might have in a squad of homicide detectives um so when I go to do the shield so Clark is directing the pilot of the shield

[01:57:57] Michael checklist you know Kenny and Wade and and uh uh and what was that was the beginning of FX right so it's going to be FX's first show this is the beginning now of prestige um basic cable

[01:58:10] and after homicide the experience for me was pretty intense and I didn't want to do a series again I just kind of wanted to do theater and I was it took me a while to sort of find my way again

[01:58:23] and it was interesting because I got offered a bunch of shows when I left the show and um and I just like no I'm not going to do it shmuck but it was like uh but but anyway so when we he's like

[01:58:35] hey do you want to be in the pilot of the shield and spoiler you know it was two it was a long time ago so if you haven't seen it I'm just going to break it to you but who we're going to make

[01:58:43] it seem like you're going to be regular on the show and then the lead Michael Chick-Less defining his character morally ambivalent character he's going to shoot you at the

[01:58:49] end of the pilot and I was like so excited I was so excited it's like oh I get to be on the show get work with my buddy Clark who's just the most amazing director um and then I don't have to be

[01:58:57] on the show and I remember being with those guys so this shows the difference and this was like the beginning of my growing up because I learned a lot of not bad habits aren't the right

[01:59:06] word on there were a lot like I said there were a lot of very strong personalities and there was some behavior where I thought like to survive I thought I had to emulate some

[01:59:17] of that bad behavior and not bad behavior but like I have to stand up for myself in the way that other people are standing up for themselves and I realized at the end of it I go no that's not

[01:59:26] who I am like I'm just I am just a nice guy and I just and I can't compete at that level it's in you can I tried to be I tried to be an asshole or I tried to be you know uh I tried to use

[01:59:39] some of those tricks to whatever it was the for the power dynamics but I was like at the end of the day like you either are that or you aren't that and you can do it and you can't do it

[01:59:46] and I learned a powerful lesson but anyway so when I work with Clark but I remember being on the set of the shield and the scripts were great and the cast was amazing but I was like oh you guys all

[01:59:54] get along you're gonna fail because I thought that I you know I took to heart that no no that's the magic the magic was that it was tense and there were divisions and it wasn't safe and

[02:00:07] and I thought that was the recipe for success and I go sorry guys because you all love each other you're all super supportive you're very nice to me and then it was a it was awesome I was like oh

[02:00:16] and that's when like down the next step of my journey I was like oh it doesn't have to be crazy you know it can be it can be it can be sweet and supportive and you can still make a cutting

[02:00:26] edge show and that sort of took me on to the next iteration of my of my career but but it was the magic of homicide right and those those intense personalities and whatever the

[02:00:39] the fomented divisions I think it all it all kept it all kept the performances always at the top right yeah it kept this energy um it kept the energy in in the actors and in the crew

[02:00:54] yeah because not just because of the fast pace but interesting because I didn't know you know you don't pay a whole lot of attention to to what's happening between the actors when you're just

[02:01:04] humping your equipment around and trying to stay up you know stay on top of everything but that's interesting if there was you know little bits of that um conflict but that keeps the edge on it

[02:01:18] and keeps everybody's performances right at the top right yeah no wait and I and it and it worked and when it was it was like I say I've never had a creative experience of that level

[02:01:29] and in and it formed me as an actor and I learned everything I learned how to act on camera on that show and I learned a lot about myself as a person as I say and how to navigate some of these situations

[02:01:41] and then you know I wish I could have you can't learn something until you you've learned it and so I had to learn you know like I say I've never learned anything from the success I've only

[02:01:49] learned but I've you know I've had a fuckload of failures and so like I tried things that didn't work and then I was like okay that's maybe not who you are how you want to approach that

[02:01:56] situation in the future and it wasn't important crucible and like I say the most creative you know I mean character that I I don't know if I'll ever be fortunate enough to play something

[02:02:08] that's as meaningful and powerful as Mike Kellerman you know with that level of talent and writing yeah and to Tom's and to Tom's talent you know but when we left when I left it was he called

[02:02:22] me up which he at the end of the season we're getting near the end of the season six and he's like what do you want to do and I just said and I was really protective of Mike and I just said

[02:02:31] hey I think we're in a I think we can't have him at his desk for another year and I think I think I think just to protect the integrity of this character I think I have to go and he goes okay

[02:02:43] but he's like is it okay if I don't kill you and I said absolutely absolutely right which was great and and it was such a gift and and and it's interesting it's happened to me a couple times

[02:02:53] where I've left the show and it created a an opportunity in the writing that transcended anything we could have gotten if if if that character had to stay or that character had stayed because this opened up a thing because then suddenly if I'm gonna leave then he gets

[02:03:07] to write this scene with me and Andre in the box and that's powerful and then because he didn't kill me because he had the fourth slide he got to bring it back as PI in the last season

[02:03:17] which was you know that's my if I have one part you know that I always want to play you know for me like the sexiest thing in the American uvra is the PI and I'm a you know I'm a Rockford fan in

[02:03:29] and out and Raymond Chandler and so that was such a gift and that was amazing to come back. Yeah it's so interesting that after that amazing story arc that you had that all of a

[02:03:39] sudden there's a whole other thing happening right that that yeah you were gone but then you come back and even within that you know a couple episodes you know there's a story arc with you

[02:03:50] and you know you're sort of disgruntled but you're you still have that sort of cop honor thing going on and then and then by the end you've won back at least some of the respect

[02:04:00] um of the detectives because you helped them with it you know with their investigation so yeah really just really amazing yeah and the movie as well yeah the movie I forget about I always

[02:04:11] forget about the movie I the movie was great because that was the opportunity because the thing I most remember and that's what's interesting going back and watching these shows and probably I didn't

[02:04:19] sleep because it was just it was so many memories and I don't remember scenes I've shot but then when you see him like oh you usually remember the life things and for me the movie the most

[02:04:26] exciting part was getting to have lunch with Ned right because I hadn't gotten to meet Ned and so uh so I got to hang out with Ned and talk to him and and that was just really like a

[02:04:38] dream come true and then that was the first time I met John Carlo because we had all of our stuff together and and I had wonderful conversations with him and funny that you know I remember to this

[02:04:48] day and then when I met up with him again on Better Call Saul we were rehashing all of that um but yeah the movie was the movie was just great to have everyone back together

[02:04:58] and and then Polito I didn't meet Polito until I met him in the Dublin airport as I was coming home from getting married my wife and I got married in Ireland and there I met the

[02:05:09] Erlingus like first class lounge or wherever we were I guess we were just waiting at the gate in Dublin airport and there's Polito he's on my flight too from he's he just shot a movie

[02:05:18] there in Dublin he's going on his way back to LA and I'm like John he's like great and I learned we never met each other but we knew each other was and I learned so much from him in just like

[02:05:28] an hour in the airport and 14 hours on that plane we get on the first class like ladies and gentlemen let's toast the married couple you know it's like and he was but he did this great thing because he taught me this thing that I'll never forget

[02:05:40] we're in the Dublin airport and as a as a character actor like myself and people sometimes recognize you but they don't really know who you are and people came up to and in before this

[02:05:50] moment with Polito people like hey did we go to high school again I wouldn't go to high school you know I would be like sort of coy or demure and and and and I watched him

[02:05:58] and someone'd be like he's like you know me from this and some moment else will come look you know me from this and I was like oh that's genius he just gets in front of it

[02:06:04] ever since that it's how I do it like you know me from this and they're like oh I do know you from that you know I don't play coy I'm like yeah yeah I'm on tv you know me from this

[02:06:12] and so I was glad I got to meet him because he was an acting hero of mine and he did not disappoint what was it like coming back and meeting up with Giancarlo on on better cool

[02:06:22] soul because it's such a great scene you guys have a couple of his two scenes or one but I just remember that sequence it was pretty good it was an incredible scene you know that's a

[02:06:30] beautifully written show and that was just one of those where I wanted to be on it it was funny because when we showed up for the rehearsal it's like a six page scene and I do most of the yapping

[02:06:38] and he was sort of I remember we we said hello to each other and I was like hey good to see you man he was and he was sort of he didn't quite he didn't didn't register perhaps that

[02:06:49] he knew me and I don't have a big enough ego that I think oh he should remember me it was a long time ago I hadn't seen him since 1999 yeah that's why I don't remember me and we did the scene

[02:06:56] and we first scene went great and the next thing I know I'm in my trailer he's not going on the door he's like I'm so sorry like I was like we just like spent two hours as gabbing in my trailer

[02:07:06] it was great because he's such a sweet guy and I'm such a huge fan of his I mean he can go back to like his Broadway stuff and his teen years at Merrily we roll along and seesaw and

[02:07:15] so he was like so it was really great to see him and that's it's great to see everyone I don't know if we talked about this on air but it was um as worked with Jean two months ago and that was

[02:07:25] it was just like we'd never left and I don't even know if I've seen him since the movie and then working with Alex or chef ski on on Bosch and it's just when you see those when you're working

[02:07:34] with those people it's it's like I said you've been through something so special together and you have a shorthand and a confidence in each other and work with Clark the last time he

[02:07:42] and I you know we did swat together we did she had together was amazing and then he and I he came and directed episode of a series I was doing the purge on TV and it was just so great to

[02:07:52] see you have it immediately he's just letting me we're just playing around having fun and then he and I took these shots we we mimicked our season five uh pressed photos together we just did the

[02:08:01] contemporary version of him I put him out as like a diptych um but and it's good and I'm in touch with his kids and and you know it's really special and I was in touch with Belzer

[02:08:11] and and like I say whenever I'd see Kyle it was just so warm and sweet I'd run in my LA would be at yoga together or whatever it was so it's it's always good I mean you know obviously

[02:08:21] it's really sad right to lose Andre yeah and yeah fast and yeah Fettin Belzer and I do think and rich I mean like it's just like I feel I guess I held out hope or I not the hope I held

[02:08:36] I had the desire I was I was hoping we could all maybe just do something together or at least all get together but it would have been also like because those characters had such legs and

[02:08:44] obviously Belzer Munch is the only character right to ever be on four different shows right so yeah I was at the freaking dinner where he asked Ed Sharon uh what when they were doing the hot crossover he's

[02:08:54] like you should put me on low on order I was there and I remember going I'm saying it's me and Belzer Ed Sharon and Jane Alexander his wife and they were doing the crossover episode

[02:09:04] and I'm sitting there and I'm the only cast people are there is me and Belzer and Harley's there and then he's like you should put me on low at order and I was like look at the balls

[02:09:10] on this guy and they cut to me didn't like why didn't I ask to get put on that show too you need a P oil that show all other career right he's a genius he is but uh yeah it would have

[02:09:20] been nice to all get together now you know um I don't know but there you go did you ever go to his house in France I freaking did it and I heard Tom went and you know Clark was there all

[02:09:30] the time and it was funny Belzer was like you gotta come over you gotta come over I'm like I will I will and you know never did it I regret I've only heard you know incredible stories

[02:09:38] about it sounds magnificent yeah Tom's new show is set around where that house is based oh brilliant oh I knew it was in France but I didn't know it was near there yeah it's in the town it's in the

[02:09:49] exact town I was thinking to myself I wonder if there's a connection and I'm you know maybe they'll use it for uh for a location it's funny too you talk about process and when Tom didn't talk

[02:10:01] about his process and uh as a writer in detail and he was you know he was like this Hemingway ask figure right so we party hard on that show right so we'd all go out we drink together and he

[02:10:13] had that Hemingway discipline where he would get no matter what it happened he'd be at his desk at like five o'clock in the morning writing yeah and he wrote everything freehand maybe he talked to

[02:10:22] you about this and you know he said yeah he did send that yeah yeah it was so cool and I was just always admired that and then he'd you know interest that Hemingway discipline then Sunil

[02:10:30] would have to you know transpose it into the computer or whatever like that but he would write everything in hand on on yellow pads and pencil and it was just like because you know we all had

[02:10:39] our romantic aspirations but that definitely always struck me as like very Hemingway ask and admirable apparently he used to do one man show every year as well to keep himself sharp

[02:10:48] but I can't remember now who told us that but yeah I just remember his leather jacket also I remember thinking oh yeah anybody like a producer that could still rock a leather jacket and he had long

[02:10:59] hair his hair was very long then he would hang out with the crew you know yeah he was cool he was super cool well guys I think we're kind of I feel like we're at a good point

[02:11:12] do you have any last final thoughts or anything you want to share that we haven't talked about before we part ways today because it could always come back for a part two at some point

[02:11:20] of course I mean always welcome it's such a treat to talk about it with you because like I say like there's it has such a it's not a show that I did it's a profound

[02:11:30] a huge part of my life and I feel so affectionate about it and so gosh darn lucky that I got to be a part of it and and it's amazing how it all came together and I got to work with such insanely talented people incredible incredible writers incredible

[02:11:46] directors and cast that it was just unassailable and so um no thank you for the opportunity to talk about it I mean my favorite crabs were uh no I think I like to go to Bill's

[02:11:56] Terrace Inn over on in Essex yep on Eastern Road and uh that was about because I just love it I think if they've changed it but at the time it was just like the back of a bar and they just

[02:12:05] hand you a it hand you a roll of paper towels and there's paper on the table and a pitcher of beer and I was like this is perfect don't the crabs on the table don't those crabs

[02:12:14] have the big ones um but yeah no I thank you so much for um it's just been a real pleasure to relive some of this with you and I'm so glad you're doing this show because I have to tell you

[02:12:25] I mean this show matters to people really matters I can't tell you how many I have friends who I only have because they approached me and mostly writers who were like that show informed me and it changed me and they just introduced themselves to me I've got friends

[02:12:38] I'll hang out with guys with beers like hey a whole group just look me up a bunch of LA writers who look me up on Twitter and I'm like yeah let's all they want to hear from the

[02:12:46] homicide stories and uh I was like sure and then here in Toronto one of my closest friends it's came up to me while I'm having oysters with my family and just like that show changed

[02:12:53] my life and and it really did you know and it it it's staying power is a testament to Tom and the cast and and um and the crew and and just the and Baltimore I mean so it's

[02:13:07] it's not as you said without the except for cell phones it's uh it's still it still works today like you know it's a great piece of art and I was a lucky I was lucky that I was able to

[02:13:19] you know hand in the kissy face and get a gun well thank you thanks thanks for you know you know following us before you know with Chris notice is like wait a minute read diamonds

[02:13:31] following us we gotta get on with the show so oh thank you for your for your yes your enthusiasm and your time and everything we really appreciate it yeah pleasure you guys doing a great job thank

[02:13:41] you thank you so much for sharing well everybody that was read diamonds Susan had do you have any thoughts you'd like to share because I thought it was such an interesting chat so it was

[02:14:11] brief was so enthusiastic his enthusiasm really uh it was infectious yes his enthusiasm uh and and I like to mention because I think you mentioned in the podcast that he started following us yeah um

[02:14:24] when we first started the podcast and he was emailed and when we emailed him to be on the show was just jumped on it he was very excited about it and also very complimentary um about not

[02:14:35] just doing it but also the conversations that we were having um so it was it was it was great to talk to him and also it was a very deep conversation for him he talked about you know as many people

[02:14:48] have what an influence the show was on their careers um but he really went deep on what that influence was and and how much it changed him and at one point he did say not just as an actor

[02:15:01] but changed him as a person which I think is you know it really speaks to it really speaks to the depth I think that the show reached and also the depth at which the actors rose to the occasion

[02:15:20] you know and and some of that emotion I think came out on the screen yeah for him because it was such a profound experience for him well yeah he was only 28 wasn't he when he joined

[02:15:31] the show he was 28 years old and you know thrown in the deep end on a pretty established series by this point and um and yeah as he was saying I think like the there was a there was a slight

[02:15:44] fear of uh that he was being brought in by an agenda not of reads but of the networks to kind of change things and so people were a little bit distant with him at the beginning

[02:15:54] and he had to kind of prove himself and obviously he had his own agenda because he wanted to get away from this sort of Johnny Depp floppy hair casting that he seemed to be getting there it was

[02:16:05] in the kissy kissy part of it yeah that was interesting yeah and he wanted you know he wanted to do more kind of gritty and serious roles and yeah no it was really really interesting

[02:16:16] and it did make me think it tied in a little bit with Tom Fontana's conversation I think that was our second episode where Tom talked about as they were casting and one of the casting

[02:16:26] director said please get me a hunk and every time Tom would call her and she'd say who did you get you know it was like that baby it was you know so and so and so and so and then the last

[02:16:36] position opened and I hope you got me a hunk and he says Richard Belzer so maybe she maybe she was happy yeah um even though Reed didn't want to be typecast as a hunk maybe that's why you

[02:16:47] know he was eventually brought on but obviously his character was not that in the show and he he really grew and had a lot of different a lot of different facets to the to the character and

[02:17:02] you know I say it too much but his character arc also really complex and interesting and interesting to hear him talk about that he went to some very dark places I mean I always think of that

[02:17:13] there's this moment in one of the episodes where he poses next to a dead body for a photograph and it was kind of like his uh after shooting Luther Mahoney I think that's the next

[02:17:21] darkest thing that his character did and it was no it was yeah quite a quite a journey and uncomfortable that was an uncomfortable scene when he did that it was like wow don't do that

[02:17:32] even though you know it's his character um I also loved all the and he talked about this too all the happenstance you know in his career um that he he knew Andre from Juilliard uh and that

[02:17:47] he worked with Eric Stoltz and Tate Donovan in Memphis Bell great film which was funny because he used the he used the uh the comparison that when we when he sees homicide cast a crew now

[02:18:01] he talks about feeling like he's he's meeting up again with his platoon mates and certainly with Memphis Bell and bringing Eric and Tate on the show uh was true because they were already friends

[02:18:13] but also friends who had gone through boot camp together in England which was a great that was a great story I said hilarious that guy was just drinking and shooting all day drinking and shooting

[02:18:25] are you familiar with that that with the property he talked about and where it is to be fair not the guy I know the type of guy he's talking about because I've certainly in my past um

[02:18:35] my father was a competition clay pigeon shooter so we used to go out occasionally on Sundays and go clay pigeon shooting and kind of deep in the country somewhere and so you do meet some very

[02:18:46] interesting colorful characters in the world of shooting so the guy read describes I've certainly met people like that but I've not met that particular guy interesting yeah and his I loved his comparison between the New York audition scene and the LA yes yes that's

[02:19:03] brilliant the next edition called you know you know not to you know not to diss not to diss New York but it's a different it's a different sensibility obviously like just you like not even

[02:19:15] sit down and shut up like they apparently didn't even talk to them it's like at least that there's four chairs for 10 actors yeah you could hear the other person's a sweaty little box of a room

[02:19:23] and then he gets the LA and there's a reception is the hands of a bottle of water and says we're so glad you're here yeah that was funny having lived I've never lived in New York but

[02:19:35] having lived in LA I thought that was yeah that was funny and it was interesting as well about the we would talk about this off air as well is very interesting the whole how in the in

[02:19:44] back in the 90s TV and film was treated very separately and if you'd starred in TV it was unlikely would be in a film as a lead at least um and and how that sort of changed

[02:19:56] so dramatically these days now it's sort of the other way around it's sort of film stars are desperate to get in TV now whilst in the other older days it was the other way around

[02:20:05] and so I find I found that really fascinating yeah and I love that he you know he put he put homicide in the historical context of this idea of it sparking the idea of prestige television

[02:20:18] before cable before HBO which then of course you know didn't copy homicide but but then became cable became the place where you could see that kind of prestige television although we were a network show

[02:20:34] obviously at the time and I love that he said you know we could do a cop show with no profanity and you laughed really hard like I you know I never thought of that it's so true whilst now

[02:20:44] you made homicide today I'm sure they would throw in quite a bit of profanity and there and there were things I didn't know as a crew person you know I said in

[02:20:55] in I probably said it in the show you know we're humping equipment around and you know worried about where we are going to go next and um I you know I wasn't aware you know he talks

[02:21:04] about the tension some of the tension between the actors you know I don't I don't yeah I have a hard time remembering that maybe if it was displayed on the set we would have seen it

[02:21:19] but it was interesting to hear him talk about you know his reception and um but also that that worked for him in the character that same would have happened if he'd come in as a

[02:21:30] greenhorn on an actual homicide unit he would have been treated icily until he proved himself I thought that was insightful and interesting something that I didn't know in any deep way

[02:21:42] for sure and and the the other side of that story as well was the the the publicity photos and the reactions to them at the embassy photographer yeah they didn't want to do it I guess that's

[02:21:53] because you know you they're working all day you don't want to add work on top of your work I wasn't sure at first if he met the um because you know I don't know if they did it every year

[02:22:02] but they would they would at some point obviously they redid shooting their portraits for the credits which they did differently after they changed the opening credits I don't know if that was a

[02:22:13] season four or three but no yeah it was publicity photos and that was another thing and maybe I was aware of it at the time that there was a photographer set up somewhere either in the

[02:22:24] building or in another building or in the office or you know somewhere doing publicity publicity shots which I don't you know probably never saw I've seen a few of them the classic one I've seen

[02:22:37] from series one is they're outside the the steps kind of all crowding around a body basically under a sheet and all looking kind of serious and so yeah so it's I can imagine that being

[02:22:51] quite difficult to achieve with all those people they don't want to do it yeah and I guess not wanting to do it because you're already working all day I guess or it takes them out of character

[02:23:01] or yeah well when I look at those pictures now it doesn't make me chuckle right I'd love to see I don't know who the photographer was we'll see if I can track them down because it's quite funny

[02:23:10] to see there's some like you're out there outtakes let's see the angry face outtakes though just kidding that would be funny that would be funny but yeah delightful it was you could it was his

[02:23:23] excitement um was palpable and it was so nice to hear from him and from others that they're happy we're doing the podcast well no it reads passion really shone through and and you know his enthusiasm

[02:23:34] for this podcast too it's very kind of them uh it's nice to interview somebody's actually you know enjoying the show that they're actually on so it's that's really cool um so no it was

[02:23:43] fantastic and and you know he's talking about his personal journey and the connection to the show yeah it was really great to read to share that with us I really appreciate that so yeah yeah

[02:23:54] thanks read thank you read and and everybody thank you very much for listening I hope you enjoyed that and don't forget to connect with us on social media we are on twitter threads and instagram

[02:24:06] and we are just at homicide pod on all of those and also you can check out our website which is homicide life on the set dot com and it's got links to our social media on there and it's

[02:24:17] also got links to the episodes thank you everybody out there for listening and we will be back soon thanks take care