S1 Ep13: Toni Lewis, Det Terri Stivers

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award winning television show, Homicide Life On The Street, with myself, Chris Carr, and Susan Ingram. On today's episode, we're joined by Toni Lewis, who played Detective Terri Stivers. Hello, everybody. So today we are joined by Toni Lewis, who played Detective Stivers. And I think we had a really interesting chat with her. But before we begin, how are you doing, Susan? You all right?

[00:01:22] Good, good, Chris. Hey, how you doing?

[00:01:24] Yeah, good.

[00:01:25] Yeah, this was, I keep saying how terrific these conversations are. And this was another terrific one. And just thanks to her for her time and her candor. And it was just really, it was really delightful. And also just eye opening. So many of these conversations have been eye opening. And this one was too.

[00:01:48] Yeah. How many episodes was she on the show for?

[00:01:50] Toni was on 44 episodes from 1996 to 1999. Also in Homicide the Movie, which we often don't mention. I think I forget because I didn't work on the movie. And then after that, she also was on Oz and Heroes, among other, many other network television shows.

[00:02:11] Yeah. Yeah. And also in The Wire as well. She was an FBI agent in The Wire for three episodes. She's crossed over quite a few times with Tom Fontana.

[00:02:20] And David Simon. So, no, real veteran of the kind of Baltimore outputs, should we put it that way? I don't know, the Baltimore dramas that have been made.

[00:02:31] So, I did also want to mention, Toni was very involved with the hair department because they kept getting notes from NBC about her hair, which is kind of odd. But she keeps mentioning Mary. And I did just want to give a shout out to Mary D'Angelo in the hair department, but also Artis Cohen, Judith Bickerton, Sherry Bramlett, and Michelle Johnson, who were all in the hair department throughout the show.

[00:03:00] Cool. Well, thank you very much. Well, let's jump into the episode and we will catch you all on the other side.

[00:03:24] Well, first, I want to say it's so good to see you. I used to see you behind the camera. I mean, like behind everything, the camera.

[00:03:33] And you were my focus for a lot of the time because I, as an actress, and Homicide was my first thing. It was my very first thing. I'd never done TV before. I mean, I'd done some background work, that kind of thing, but it was my first. So, you were my focus. So, thank you for being there.

[00:03:57] Yeah. A couple of the women actors have said it helped having a woman's face there.

[00:04:02] It did.

[00:04:02] Obviously, there were other women, but once we rolled, I was the last one before I hit that slate and ran away and hid behind a wall somewhere. So, cool. Well, thank you.

[00:04:14] So, that is amazing, telling us that that was your first thing because I went back and looked at it. I had looked at all the episodes. Tom had sent me the DVDs because I didn't have them. I was looking at it from the local library before streaming happened.

[00:04:29] And then, of course, being able to look at it. So, I looked at the whole thing. And then when streaming started, I was able to go back and start looking at everything again. But for you to say that was your first thing, and you had an auspicious entrance in that show.

[00:04:47] So, you know, nobody knew who I was. Nobody knew who I was. Nobody were like, who is this girl? Who is she? Where is she coming from? Who is she? And everybody thought like, oh, she's just a Tom Hire. But that wasn't the way it went down.

[00:05:03] I mean, I knew Tom. We weren't like friends at that point. I love him. He's my soul. He's my part of my soul family now. But at that point, I didn't know him really. And I just knew the work.

[00:05:19] Wow.

[00:05:20] And I knew that I wanted to, because I'm a musical theater actor. I'm a stage actor. And everything goes really, you know, stage work is slower, you know? Everything is slow. And you take your time and you really get into the character. But, you know, that time to do here.

[00:05:41] But, and I knew that it was going to be a challenge. I didn't know how much of a challenge it was going to be. But I was like, I got to get on this show. I have to be on this show. And I begged for an audition.

[00:05:57] And, and I went in to see Lou DiGiomo. And I was like, but he was so amazing. He is, he was truly, and I'm not sure that he's still with us, but he was truly an actor's casting director.

[00:06:15] He really took time and explained what the scene was going to be and what was going to happen in the characters and all the stuff and all the background. I knew all that stuff anyway. But the scene went better than I expected.

[00:06:35] And, and, and, and, and, and from what I hear, the scuttlebutt, I don't know exactly what happened after that. But I was told that Tom told Lou DiGiomo that he didn't really have to, you know, say she's in, but, but he's, Lou DiGiomo was like, yeah, you need to see this girl.

[00:06:57] So, so, so, so jumping on from that, go back a little. What, what was your, if that was your first TV show, what, what was your entree into acting? How did you get into acting and then, and then get to homicide to know, to, to go, you know, beg for that audition?

[00:07:12] I, I, I, I put myself out a lot further than I'm actually ready to go because I'm very, very shy and introverted. And, um, I decided that, I mean, and, and what I wanted to be more than anything in the world was a singer. And, you know, and I'm a singer. And I, I, I wanted to be, you know, Diana Ross. I wanted to be, you know, that woman.

[00:07:37] And, and, um, and I got into singing. I started, you know, doing choir work and all that stuff. And then I got into music, musical theater and, uh, and, uh, it just like, it just caught me. I wasn't expecting to be on television, but, um, but through all the work that I had already done through background work and stuff like that, I was like, well, maybe I can do this. Maybe I can do this.

[00:08:04] But, you know, the safety of, of the theater. Like I, I was a part of the, the, uh, Westport theater group and, and, uh, and I got to meet so many amazing older actors who were, you know, from Vaudeville and that kind of thing. And they would always like sort of, you know, impart their wisdom to me.

[00:08:25] And, you know, I worked with Brett Summers and, and Iris Luce and, and a lot of these old head actors who just wanted to take you under their wing and just, you know, give you the scuttlebutt, you know, how to do it, how to survive.

[00:08:42] And I really admire them and, uh, and, and, and I'm grateful to what they, they did for me. So that's how I got into acting was through.

[00:08:52] And was this in New York? Were you in, were you?

[00:08:54] Well, I, I, uh, I joined West, moved to Connecticut, got married, had a baby, moved to Connecticut and I still wanted to act. So I, I went to Bridgeport theater, uh, and did some musicals there, uh, joined the Westport theater artist group. And, uh, I think they, I don't know if they still have a, uh, both coasts group.

[00:09:18] I don't even know if the group is still going, but, um, I did that. And, uh, and then, um, how did I do? Oh, oh, because of my brother-in-law, he was working with Tom at the time and they were doing some theater work together.

[00:09:36] And, uh, and then that's how I met. I met, uh, how my, my husband met Tom and then he was hired because, uh, my husband, I'm, I'm going to just, he's not going to tout himself or toot his own horn, but.

[00:09:51] Go ahead.

[00:09:53] He's, he's, he's pretty frigging good. And, uh, you know, with music and, um, and he's just got this innate sense of, of how things work with engineering and all that stuff. And that's why I fell in love with him. It's hands. He's just got great hands. Um, so, um, so I did that. I, I, uh, started, he got hired and he started doing the work and I think it was, it, I started in the fifth season.

[00:10:22] So he did four seasons of the show before I was like, I have to do this. I have to do this before it's over because if I don't, I'm going to kick myself and it's going to be bad. So that's how I got in.

[00:10:34] So you were watching four seasons. Reed, Reed told us a similar story that he was watching it going, I have got to get on that show. It's interesting.

[00:10:43] I was watching the seasons and, and Chris, my husband, Chris would get the, the, um, the scripts and I would go through the scripts as well and break down the scripts myself and start to, you know, break down the characters.

[00:10:55] Wow.

[00:10:56] And I really looked at Kay Ballard, the character of Kay Ballard and, and, um, and I really loved what, what Melissa Leo did with her character. And, uh, I just, it just, it just felt, I just felt like there was no other woman on TV at that point who was that gritty and real. And, you know, she was not, she was not playing around.

[00:11:22] So I was like, I like that girl. So, um, I was like, I want to be like that.

[00:11:29] So did you know they were casting for, for the Terry Stivers part? What, what, what you just went in blind and said, I need to audition?

[00:11:37] I went in blind. I just wanted to do anything. I didn't expect to get a big part. I just wanted to get on the show. Right. And I was like, if I just get on the show, then I can prove myself and I can, you know, do some, maybe do something different. I don't know.

[00:11:51] Um, but, uh, I got thrown into the deep end and it was sink or swim.

[00:12:00] Amazing. And I was just watching that first episode today where, um, where, I mean, you're the opening line is, is I'm looking for Terry, I'm looking for Stivers and I'm going to smack him when Lewis walks into the morgue.

[00:12:16] And you, you walk up to him and get your face in his face and say, take your best shot, pal. I mean, what a, what a great entrance for your character.

[00:12:24] I'm from Chicago. I'm from Chicago. I'm from the South side of Chicago and, and nobody steps up to me.

[00:12:29] Like, um, uh, it was fun because, uh, I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm not a person who's, like I said, I'm an introvert. I'm not a person who's in your face, but yeah, I, I can be in your face if you push me hard enough.

[00:12:47] Um, and I think that that came through with the character, uh, with the Stivers character. If she got pushed far enough, she would lose it and she would give you what you have been asking for.

[00:13:03] Yeah. She, right in that first episode, you had to really stand up, you know, you had to stand up to Lewis when they're, when you're fighting over your witnesses and all that.

[00:13:13] I was shaking like this the whole time. I was shaking the whole time. And it, there was a funny thing in the, like the, and I'm sure Clark laughed about this a lot and I'm sure he laughed at me, but he, we did, we went to like a drug den and we were shooting in this dark drug den and there's, you know, stuff all around and everything. And we were supposed to high five.

[00:13:36] And I asked him to practice the high five because I don't high five people.

[00:13:45] That was when you opened the refrigerator and see like the 20 keys of, you know, heroin or whatever it was.

[00:13:51] Exactly. And I, and he laughed at me and I laughed, but I was dead serious because I didn't want to look like an asshole.

[00:13:59] Wow. Cause you come off so sure of yourself and so cool and so self-assured in that, in that first episode.

[00:14:08] It was all bluster.

[00:14:09] I was wondering about your sort of inspiration for the characters. Obviously you've mentioned the previous sort of actors.

[00:14:15] Was there, were there any sort of like real life sources that you drew on as well?

[00:14:18] Well, I have like five cops in my family. So.

[00:14:21] Oh, wow.

[00:14:22] But my inspiration for the character was my niece who is a Chicago police officer.

[00:14:30] She's been with the department for maybe 30 years or something like that.

[00:14:37] But she was, she was, when she first started out, because she's, she's a shorty like me.

[00:14:45] I'm five feet, five, two, five, one. I don't know. I cheat sometimes.

[00:14:49] But, um, she's a shorty like me, but, uh, this girl, she will jump into the fray in a minute.

[00:14:58] They were always calling her like, you know, watch out cause Stacy's coming.

[00:15:02] And she will dive, she would dive into a group of people if they were fighting, she would dive into that.

[00:15:09] And I was like, why are you doing that?

[00:15:13] She's like, I don't know.

[00:15:15] I just did it.

[00:15:17] It was my way of doing it.

[00:15:19] So it was just like, just be, just be, you know, courageous, be, just be, just get in there and do what needs to be done.

[00:15:27] And that's, that's the kind of person she is.

[00:15:30] And I admire her and I love her to death.

[00:15:33] She's just a, she's a great human being and, uh, she really cares about people.

[00:15:37] And when I first got the job, when I, I actually, um, when we actually moved, cause we moved to, to Fells Point.

[00:15:48] Um, we lived on Fells Street and there was a gun range that was maybe three blocks away.

[00:15:55] And when I'm, when I got there, I went to the gun range to practice using a Glock, how to use it, how, you know, to feel the recoil.

[00:16:03] So I wouldn't, wouldn't be, you know, surprised if I ever had to do that.

[00:16:08] Um, I, uh, I figured out a way to manage a ride along with a Maryland, uh, police woman.

[00:16:16] Uh, she was a detective.

[00:16:17] Uh, I think she was homicide detective and, uh, I can't remember her name.

[00:16:23] Oh my gosh.

[00:16:24] But she was so wonderful.

[00:16:26] She, um, uh, she took me to a scene where it was actually a, a drug overdose.

[00:16:33] So because I was a, a, um, a narcotics, uh, cop, I wanted to, to really sort of see what that was all about.

[00:16:42] So, um, right off the bat, we, we got to the scene.

[00:16:47] And then she took out a handful of peppermints and started handing them out to the people at the scene going, hey, hey.

[00:16:55] And everybody was like, hey, sweetheart.

[00:16:57] Hey, how are you doing?

[00:16:58] How are you doing?

[00:16:59] And she was so wonderful.

[00:17:00] She was like, hey, Pete.

[00:17:02] And she had, you know, handed people candy and use this.

[00:17:05] It's going to, it's going to help you.

[00:17:06] And then she walked in and the guy, um, the guy who overdosed, I guess he had just gotten off, fell off the couch onto his knees and then he fell down onto his head.

[00:17:20] And so his, his cap fell over his face.

[00:17:23] So I couldn't see his face, which was, but I just, it just like walking into that situation was, it was deathly quiet.

[00:17:34] And even the cops were just quiet.

[00:17:36] Everybody was quiet.

[00:17:38] It was a scene because the relatives were out back.

[00:17:42] They were, you know, so they were on the scene.

[00:17:44] Nobody was really talking, but she, it was, and I laughed because I didn't know what to do, but she said, look at this guy.

[00:17:55] His last statement to the world is kiss my ass.

[00:18:02] And I thought, this is the kind of thing that you have to do when you were to look, when you're looking at this stuff every day, you have to find something to lighten the energy.

[00:18:15] And she was able to do that.

[00:18:18] And, you know.

[00:18:19] So much in the book and the show was the, the dark humor they used to survive that.

[00:18:24] Yes.

[00:18:24] Right.

[00:18:24] Yes.

[00:18:25] And it is true.

[00:18:26] Wow, so cool that, A, you had cops in your family to know about and then to be able to go on a ride along.

[00:18:33] Wow.

[00:18:33] So you came, you came with a little bit of stuff.

[00:18:36] Well, you know, I like to do my research, you know, and I, they even invited me to the, to the lodge, to the police lodge.

[00:18:43] I went and had drinks with the cops and it was awesome.

[00:18:48] It was so awesome.

[00:18:49] It was such an awesome experience and I'll never forget it.

[00:18:53] And I'll always be grateful to them.

[00:18:55] They just, they, they, they pulled me in and they unfolded me and it, it felt really safe.

[00:19:01] Now, some of the other, some of the other, so we have talked, we haven't talked to everybody, obviously, because we can only do this monthly.

[00:19:07] But, um, both Melissa and Isabella talked about how much the wardrobe informed their characters.

[00:19:16] And you had a very specific wardrobe.

[00:19:18] Your wardrobe was not bland by any sense.

[00:19:22] It was not, you were not disappearing into the background.

[00:19:25] I mean, you had the black leather jackets, you had the puka shell necklace.

[00:19:28] I mean, you were really, um, hip, but also tough.

[00:19:33] Um, but also sexy, you know, cause I'm, I think at the end of the first episode, you, you and Clark are having martinis in the waterfront and you're talking and you're talking about, you know, life and, you know, talking about how difficult life is.

[00:19:48] And he mentions that he's having trouble in his marriage or he's taking it.

[00:19:52] And you say, well, if you ever take a break from your marriage, let me know or look me up.

[00:19:56] And I was like, go girl.

[00:19:57] Like she's got every angle covered.

[00:19:59] She is tough.

[00:20:01] She knows her shit.

[00:20:02] And she goes for what she wants.

[00:20:03] And she's, and she's, she's got his eye already.

[00:20:07] Right.

[00:20:08] So, so did that, did you come with, with that feeling of that character or did that wardrobe help, help build that sort of sensibility as well?

[00:20:20] Tina, Tina, Tina was, she was, she just felt like she had her finger on the pulse of every character from the very beginning.

[00:20:32] Right.

[00:20:33] So it was all about the trusting that Tina knew exactly how to put your character together.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:41] And so I never really had any problems with what they, how they dressed me or anything.

[00:20:47] I loved it.

[00:20:48] I loved it.

[00:20:48] Especially when the orange is my favorite color.

[00:20:51] It's my, it's the safety, safety color.

[00:20:53] And rust and orange colors.

[00:20:55] A lot of that.

[00:20:56] Yeah.

[00:20:56] Yeah.

[00:20:56] That was my color.

[00:20:57] And she, and she was, I loved her.

[00:21:00] She was awesome.

[00:21:01] And, um.

[00:21:03] That's Tina Negro.

[00:21:04] Everybody out there.

[00:21:06] She was, um, she was awesome.

[00:21:08] Designer.

[00:21:08] Woodrow designer.

[00:21:08] And she, she, she actually made my daughter a Halloween costume one time.

[00:21:15] It was so elaborate.

[00:21:16] She was like a space dog.

[00:21:18] That's great.

[00:21:19] And she just did it, you know, it's like out of the goodness of her heart.

[00:21:22] And everybody was so, like, it was a family, you know, it felt like a family.

[00:21:27] And while we were there.

[00:21:29] So, yeah.

[00:21:30] So you lived on Fell Street.

[00:21:32] How did it feel?

[00:21:33] Um, so you'd been, so you had some familiar, familiarity maybe, uh, because of, um, Chris.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:41] And, and, and sort of knowing some of the creators peripherally.

[00:21:46] But what, what did, I mean, you said you were nervous and you were shaking.

[00:21:49] What was it like to finally jump into that ensemble cast?

[00:21:53] And then now, now I just noticed this morning when I was looking everything up, um, you started,

[00:21:58] Alex was already the cameraman.

[00:22:00] So Jean had, had done his first four seasons and Alex came in season five.

[00:22:05] Nevertheless, still, although the show looked a little different because Alex liked, um, hard

[00:22:12] light a little more.

[00:22:13] Backgrounds were a little darker.

[00:22:15] Contrast was a little higher.

[00:22:16] Um, it had a darker feel.

[00:22:18] It still was the same kind of never ending motion camera work.

[00:22:23] Got to go.

[00:22:24] Got to go.

[00:22:25] So it was like those two things coming into that gigantic, amazing cast you'd been

[00:22:29] watching for four seasons already.

[00:22:31] And then with a camera that never stopped moving.

[00:22:35] It was, um, it was really hard for me in the beginning.

[00:22:40] I'm not going to lie.

[00:22:41] It was hard because I, like I said, it was my first thing.

[00:22:45] So, uh, and I didn't have like, it was like a lot of my stuff was like pretending to, to

[00:22:54] know what I was doing.

[00:22:57] I had no idea what I was doing.

[00:23:00] And, um, and you know, like Yafet was one of the people who sort of like took me under

[00:23:07] his wing and gave me some pointers.

[00:23:12] Um, he was awesome.

[00:23:15] Um, I don't know why he liked me.

[00:23:17] I just, he just like, I like you.

[00:23:20] I'm like, okay, okay.

[00:23:22] Um, and, uh, and, um, Richard Belzer and, uh.

[00:23:28] So you didn't know any of the cast prior to?

[00:23:30] No, I mean, I didn't really even, I, I didn't work with the old, the older cast much.

[00:23:38] Right.

[00:23:38] When I came in, it was, I worked with Clark and I worked with Belzer.

[00:23:44] And Melissa was still there at that point.

[00:23:47] Melissa was, I think she was.

[00:23:50] She was in at least that first episode.

[00:23:52] That first episode.

[00:23:53] But then I, I, I didn't, the only time I met Melissa was when we did cast pictures.

[00:23:59] Hmm.

[00:24:00] So you weren't in scenes together.

[00:24:02] Interesting.

[00:24:02] Hmm.

[00:24:03] No, we weren't.

[00:24:04] Um, I didn't, I never did a, I never did a, uh, like a small scene with, I don't think

[00:24:10] I did a, maybe I did do a small scene with Andre and Kyle.

[00:24:15] I don't know.

[00:24:16] But Reed was the one, you know, Reed was the one who left, who left a mark.

[00:24:25] Reed Diamond.

[00:24:27] He actually left a mark.

[00:24:28] Oh, get out a real mark.

[00:24:30] Yeah.

[00:24:31] All right, Reed.

[00:24:32] Listen up, Reed.

[00:24:32] He listens to all our episodes and they have their own, their own, uh, podcast now too.

[00:24:37] So, um, so, oh, okay.

[00:24:39] Here's a good Reed story.

[00:24:41] I want, I can't wait to hear this.

[00:24:44] Well, it was, it was after the whole Luther Mahoney thing.

[00:24:47] And he was, you know, it was, he was, uh, he did the right thing in the end and that,

[00:24:52] that scene that we did outside the courtroom.

[00:24:54] And, and, uh, when I let in, lit into him and he kept grabbing me and every time he grabbed

[00:25:01] me, he would twist my arm a little bit.

[00:25:04] And I was like, I was like, and I was getting madder and madder and madder every time we

[00:25:11] did.

[00:25:11] It's like, I would get madder and madder.

[00:25:13] I, and I wouldn't say anything to him, but I was like, oh, fuck, you're just fucking,

[00:25:18] I was fucking, oh, fuck.

[00:25:21] Like in, and when I got home, my whole arm was like bruised.

[00:25:26] And I was like, oh man, what you, what, what, what we do for the, the art.

[00:25:32] And I was like, because I, because I have like some of the CDs, like the OCDs, the, the

[00:25:41] ADHD kind of things.

[00:25:42] So it's hard, it was really hard for me, um, in the beginning, maybe even throughout to,

[00:25:51] uh, to pick up things really quickly because of the D CDs.

[00:25:59] So, uh, when they do changes, you know, when they do the script changes and stuff and stick

[00:26:04] them in, it was always, that was the, always the big horror for me because that then, because

[00:26:10] things switch around and I, cause you know, as, as a theater actor, I could take the time

[00:26:15] and write and, and I would write out my lines.

[00:26:19] You know, I just keep writing them out so that I can.

[00:26:22] Because it helps get in your head, right?

[00:26:23] Yeah, it would help me get into the, to the head.

[00:26:25] So, um, it was, it was, uh, it was, it was, uh, yeah, Reed was the one who left the mark.

[00:26:33] He was the one.

[00:26:35] Wow.

[00:26:35] And I saw him, you, when I.

[00:26:36] So next time we see him, we'll, next time we see him, I'll punch him in the arm.

[00:26:39] No, no.

[00:26:40] I saw him years later.

[00:26:41] He was like, Tony.

[00:26:41] No, I'd love to do that, really.

[00:26:44] I saw him years later.

[00:26:46] He's like, Tony, hi.

[00:26:47] I'm like, hi.

[00:26:50] I didn't even think you knew me.

[00:26:53] But, but yeah.

[00:26:54] Right.

[00:26:55] It's okay.

[00:26:55] Wow.

[00:26:56] So that was, so that was after, after the shooting and when it was into the big mess of,

[00:27:01] you know, who's guilty?

[00:27:02] Was it a good shooting?

[00:27:04] What, you know, so it was, it was, everybody was keyed up at that point, right?

[00:27:08] I guess he was pretty keyed up about his character.

[00:27:12] Yeah.

[00:27:13] Whether he was, he was righteous or not.

[00:27:15] And at that point, everybody had decided, I guess he wasn't righteous.

[00:27:18] Well, he did, you know.

[00:27:19] He was going to get away with it.

[00:27:20] Eric Overmeyer, who wrote that script.

[00:27:22] It was like, you did the right thing in the end.

[00:27:25] And he did, you know, it was like, there was some shady crap going on.

[00:27:31] And I, and, and to be the cop that Stivers was, right?

[00:27:37] She was like this, like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:27:40] I'm not going to take that, you know.

[00:27:42] And to be, have to be caught up in this conspiracy thing, you know, was like, it, it was no bueno.

[00:27:51] It just, it just put her in a different place.

[00:27:54] And she didn't want that she didn't want to be in.

[00:27:57] So it was hard.

[00:27:59] It was hard for that character to, to come to grips with that, with that storyline.

[00:28:04] Did you know about that storyline in advance?

[00:28:06] I had no idea.

[00:28:07] I had no idea.

[00:28:08] And, uh, especially when, when the shoot, when the shooting happened and, um, that reaction

[00:28:16] that you see on Stivers face, that was real because I did not, I mean, I knew that what

[00:28:23] was going to happen in the script, but it was still like the first time that a shot had gone

[00:28:29] off on set for me with me there.

[00:28:32] So that was, yeah.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:35] And you're, you're not a seasoned cop show actor who has them going off in your head all

[00:28:41] the time.

[00:28:41] Wow.

[00:28:42] And I don't, you know, it's like, I mean, I went to the range and everything, but I

[00:28:46] had the earphones on and all that stuff.

[00:28:49] And, and, uh, it was, uh, it was kind of traumatic at the moment.

[00:28:55] I was like, oh, wow.

[00:28:56] That's what that sounds like.

[00:28:58] That, that stays with you.

[00:29:00] Yeah.

[00:29:01] Especially in doors as well.

[00:29:02] And the marble lined apartment, right?

[00:29:04] There was nothing soft in that apartment.

[00:29:07] So it was noisy.

[00:29:07] No, it was noisy.

[00:29:08] And it was, uh, and, and one thing about going to the gun range that I didn't really expect

[00:29:15] to happen was that, um, I felt so powerful leaving, you know, walked out of there.

[00:29:24] I felt powerful.

[00:29:25] I felt like, wow, this is powerful.

[00:29:30] And I wanted to have that show in the character as well, that, that she understood how powerful

[00:29:38] it is to have this weapon or use this weapon.

[00:29:44] And that was an incredibly intense scene.

[00:29:47] I mean, after the fight and, you know, Luther, who always was halfway to crazy to begin with,

[00:29:53] you know, is all beat up and everybody is on the top of their adrenaline, right?

[00:29:59] Flowing.

[00:29:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:30:00] And Eric was amazing.

[00:30:02] Yeah.

[00:30:02] He's, wow.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] And you were in the first, in that first episode.

[00:30:08] I mean, there's so many heavy things in that first episode.

[00:30:10] I was watching it going, wow, for her to jump in.

[00:30:13] And, and, and, and I didn't know how green you felt personally, right?

[00:30:18] But just watching it today, you know, not only are you in the box with Eric, you know,

[00:30:23] with Luther Mahoney, you're in the box with that really sad, pathetic, but sympathetic character,

[00:30:33] the little, the little guy, the little, um, the addict, you know.

[00:30:37] Yeah.

[00:30:38] Yeah.

[00:30:39] You're informant that you were trying to keep safe, but that you were also trying to work

[00:30:43] to get some information out of.

[00:30:44] I mean, so many of the scenes in that first episode were just really heavy dramatically.

[00:30:51] And you just, you carried it off.

[00:30:54] I mean, you cannot tell watching that, that you're a greenhorn by any stretch.

[00:30:58] Now, obviously not a greenhorn because you were doing theater.

[00:31:01] Obviously you were, you were an actor already, but still a heavy, heavy lift, um, to walk

[00:31:08] into that situation.

[00:31:09] Yeah.

[00:31:10] I think that.

[00:31:10] Well done.

[00:31:11] Thank you.

[00:31:11] I think that if I hadn't been sort of watching and a fan of the show at the time, and, and I

[00:31:19] was such a big, like fan of the writing, you know, the writing was, and I used to say this

[00:31:29] all the time to Tom and I, he rolled his eyes.

[00:31:32] It was like the colors, the colors that you guys created, you know, the, the palette, it

[00:31:40] was just so rich and just, there were the nuances and the, you know, and like how the storylines,

[00:31:48] you could have three storylines going at the same time.

[00:31:50] And then they sort of all sort of blended into this one message, you know, and, and unless

[00:31:56] you're a fan, you don't really, you know, sort of get it.

[00:31:59] But, um, I was a fan.

[00:32:01] I am a fan.

[00:32:02] I mean, I haven't watched it since it came out, but I just can't.

[00:32:06] I don't know that I can, but cause I, I mean, it was, it was what it was.

[00:32:11] Wow.

[00:32:11] It's, it's enjoyable to revisit.

[00:32:13] Yeah.

[00:32:14] It, it, it has not aged.

[00:32:17] It is as relevant and, and impressive now as it was then.

[00:32:24] I mean, like you said, threading the three stories, weaving the three stories together,

[00:32:28] that first episode for you, obviously Reed was already starting to get in trouble.

[00:32:34] Um, and because he, it was, it was prior to Luther Mahoney, he's being investigated for

[00:32:41] corruption, um, from the arson squad.

[00:32:43] So there's this, this other story about Reed and his issues.

[00:32:47] And then, and then Andre and his character had just, had come back from the stroke and

[00:32:51] is struggling with trying to get back to himself in the squad room.

[00:32:57] And, um, and all those, like you said, are woven together.

[00:33:01] And at the end, there's this really beautiful montage.

[00:33:05] Well, it's not so much a montage, but coming together of Andre late one night going home

[00:33:11] and this beautiful music in the background.

[00:33:13] And he goes in and he takes his child out of the crib.

[00:33:16] Um, and I can't remember if it was before or after, probably no after, right after that,

[00:33:22] it cuts to little Vernon who had been cut loose from the box, who they did not get to

[00:33:29] back into the aquarium for him to be safe after he was named in the warrant.

[00:33:34] Um, and there he is dead on the sidewalk.

[00:33:38] And it, you know, just, just beautiful.

[00:33:40] It gave you a real feel for humanity in completely different situations, right?

[00:33:48] You go from this beautiful suburban sort of, you know, home life where obviously Andre

[00:33:55] is sad and feeling frustrated about things, but, and then, then to the reality of the street,

[00:34:01] but also just a really sad, poignant moment for that young man too.

[00:34:07] I mean, yeah, you should watch it because it's still really good.

[00:34:12] What was it like being part of such an amazing ensemble cast?

[00:34:17] Do you have any like memories of sort of, uh, working with certain actors and, and yeah,

[00:34:21] what was that like sort of slotting in?

[00:34:23] It was like, it was, you know, because I guess because we were, we worked so much, you know,

[00:34:30] at night and, and stuff like that.

[00:34:32] So we, we sort of had to, um, rely on each other for, you know, just, you know, just,

[00:34:40] just to stay awake sometimes.

[00:34:43] Just to, oh, when's my, my sink going to come up finally?

[00:34:46] You know, it's like, and my daughter was in school, so it was all, always a, a thing for me

[00:34:52] to, um, because trying to get her home from school, you know, I'd often have to.

[00:34:58] How old was she then at that point?

[00:34:59] She was nine.

[00:35:01] And she.

[00:35:01] Oh, really?

[00:35:02] Wow.

[00:35:02] She would come to the set.

[00:35:03] Did you bring her to the set?

[00:35:04] I do not remember.

[00:35:05] Yeah, she would come to the set and, uh, Richard Belzer was like, he was like, uh, he was

[00:35:12] like an uncle for her because she loved him because he was so funny.

[00:35:16] And, um, so yeah, she'd come to the set and, uh, that was the only time she ever saw any

[00:35:22] of Homicide was the times when I let her come to the set because she never watched.

[00:35:26] I, I'd never let her watch the show.

[00:35:28] Uh, I don't, I think she's watching it now.

[00:35:31] She's.

[00:35:32] There you go.

[00:35:33] She's probably telling you how good it is too.

[00:35:36] Um, I don't know.

[00:35:38] She's, um, was, well, working with, who did I work with?

[00:35:41] Like Callie.

[00:35:42] I worked with Callie mostly.

[00:35:44] Um, John, John Seda, um, was my, my, uh, my go-to partner and, uh, Clark sometimes

[00:35:53] and, uh, Reed Diamond and, uh, and then, you know, I never worked with was Michelle Forbes.

[00:36:00] Um, um, or, uh, who else did I work with?

[00:36:07] I didn't really work with Kyle that much.

[00:36:10] I don't, he may have been in the squad room at some point, you know, in time when everybody

[00:36:14] was there, but I never really worked with, with him.

[00:36:18] So, um, most of the people that I worked with was just, you know, the younger, the, the people

[00:36:24] who came on after the fourth season.

[00:36:26] Right.

[00:36:26] And interesting.

[00:36:27] How was it working with Callie and John?

[00:36:29] Because we, we, we talked in an earlier episode about how, not just how amazing the cast

[00:36:34] was, but they cast the partners usually as polar opposites.

[00:36:39] You know, if you think about, um, Melissa and Danny and Kyle and Andre.

[00:36:46] Um, so how was that?

[00:36:47] And, and you and Callie were different, but you and John may be more similar, right?

[00:36:51] Cause John came from, from, no, not from Vice.

[00:36:55] What did he came from auto?

[00:36:56] What did he come over from?

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:57] Yeah.

[00:36:57] He came from an auto.

[00:36:58] So you both came in, you know, from, from different departments, but also, also both

[00:37:04] had that sort of bad girl, bad guy sensibility, you know?

[00:37:09] So talk a little bit about that, that, that, how that, that interplayed between you and

[00:37:13] Callie and, and you and John.

[00:37:14] Cause that's interesting.

[00:37:16] Um, Callie, um, was, it was so funny cause Callie was like, uh, she's the girly girl.

[00:37:23] Callie's a girly girl and I, I just, she and I were different in, in that I was sort

[00:37:29] of more tomboyish and more, you know, more of the, like, uh, I'm going to, you know, I

[00:37:35] like to, you know, kick box and things like that.

[00:37:37] And she was more like, I'm going to get my nails done.

[00:37:40] That kind of thing.

[00:37:42] So, and, uh, so.

[00:37:44] And that's the characters.

[00:37:45] Yeah.

[00:37:45] So that's how our characters were sort of like, you know, it was like, I asked her

[00:37:50] one time if she went to the gun range to, to practice and she was like, no.

[00:37:58] That was a good face.

[00:37:59] That was a good imitation of her.

[00:38:00] That was very good.

[00:38:05] So it was funny.

[00:38:07] Yeah.

[00:38:07] And so they paired you because you guys were opposites too.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:11] I mean, that scene that we had, the scene that she and I had in the gym was funny because

[00:38:18] I don't remember Callie doing a whole lot of work.

[00:38:23] I didn't, you know, she was naturally beautiful and I mean, she may have worked out, but we

[00:38:28] didn't work out together.

[00:38:29] Um, but that scene was an intense scene and, and, and I think that was one of the better

[00:38:34] scenes that we did together.

[00:38:36] And I really enjoyed it.

[00:38:38] She's an amazing actress.

[00:38:40] Which, which episode was that?

[00:38:41] Wow.

[00:38:42] That was after.

[00:38:43] What was happening?

[00:38:44] Michael Michelle was in the show and her character, I can't remember her character's

[00:38:50] name, but.

[00:38:51] Renee Shepard.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Uh, Renee Shepard.

[00:38:53] Yeah.

[00:38:54] Renee Shepard.

[00:38:54] Yeah.

[00:38:54] She got beaten.

[00:38:56] She got a beat down.

[00:38:58] Yes.

[00:38:59] Yeah.

[00:38:59] And, and Callie and I were talking about it.

[00:39:02] They took her gun and, and, uh, and I was like, uh, and I was supposed to be like, you

[00:39:09] know, you know, it could happen, but it never should have happened.

[00:39:17] Right.

[00:39:19] Yeah.

[00:39:20] Cause there was some tension between your two characters, wasn't there?

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:23] Because it was like, it was like when you, like I said, I have some cops in my family

[00:39:28] and, and the wearing of the ponytail in the back with the long ponytail swaying in the

[00:39:34] back.

[00:39:34] That's not something that you do as a cop, right?

[00:39:36] Cause when you're in altercation, that's the first thing somebody is going to do to,

[00:39:41] to restrain you, right?

[00:39:43] You take your hair and that's, there's nothing, a whole lot you can do.

[00:39:48] Um, you know, unless you're, you, you know, unless you're like a Bruce Lee kind of character,

[00:39:53] you can switch it, turn it around and get out of it.

[00:39:56] But that's why a lot of cops that you see don't have long ponytails hanging around cause

[00:40:03] you're not supposed to do that.

[00:40:05] That's not.

[00:40:05] Yeah.

[00:40:05] Or they have them really, really seriously clipped up back there.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] You clip it up.

[00:40:10] I know the Baltimore County women cops always very tightly.

[00:40:13] Yeah.

[00:40:14] You clip it up and you tie it in a knot and you, you make sure that it's secure.

[00:40:18] Sure.

[00:40:18] So I'm like all about the authenticity of the character and authenticity of the, the feel

[00:40:25] of the scene and, and how it's going to play.

[00:40:27] And, and, um, so that, that was the thing about, uh, that scene that Callie and I had

[00:40:35] was regarding Shepard and, and the fact that, um, she pretty, but she got me down.

[00:40:45] But, you know.

[00:40:46] And how was working with John?

[00:40:47] John is just, John is John.

[00:40:50] John, he's always.

[00:40:52] You seem like you were sort of on the same wavelength.

[00:40:54] The characters were, were sort of similarly, you know.

[00:40:56] He was always funny, always laughing, always joking around.

[00:41:00] Um, um, he had, but you know, when the scene started, he was there, he was always there.

[00:41:06] Uh, so it was a lot of like, you know, if you're like, I'm a serious actor and, and you

[00:41:13] try to do a scene with John, it's not going to work.

[00:41:16] You better get your, your stuff together before.

[00:41:20] Um, so, uh, but he's an amazing actor and, and he can do that because he's a good actor.

[00:41:28] Um, so it's just up to you as, as the person who's working with him and make sure that you

[00:41:33] got your stuff together.

[00:41:35] I loved, I loved, I loved John Seda.

[00:41:37] He, he's great.

[00:41:37] He was great.

[00:41:38] And, uh, and I haven't seen him in years.

[00:41:40] I haven't seen anybody in years and I, and I hope he's doing really well.

[00:41:45] Have you seen the Pacific?

[00:41:47] Uh-uh.

[00:41:49] It's a Netflix, um, Netflix series that sort of followed up on Band of Brothers, but it

[00:41:54] takes, it's World War II and the Pacific.

[00:41:56] He was in that.

[00:41:57] Actually, if you haven't seen it, of course, it's in, it is the most brutal World War II

[00:42:05] film I've ever seen.

[00:42:06] Yeah, that's, that's why I didn't watch it.

[00:42:08] If you don't go for brutal, brutal war films, you know, maybe avoid it, but it was, it was,

[00:42:13] it was kind of amazing.

[00:42:14] I think he's also in Chicago Fire or something, so it might be less, less brutal, but yeah,

[00:42:18] yeah, yeah, he's in those things.

[00:42:19] Yeah, he's in Chicago Fire.

[00:42:21] So were you going back and forth to Baltimore?

[00:42:23] Was Chris working from New York?

[00:42:25] Had you been to Baltimore before, before you moved in?

[00:42:27] What was, what was, what was it like coming to, moving to Baltimore?

[00:42:30] When I first got the show, I was staying in, with Stephanie Fontana, staying with her.

[00:42:38] Oh, nice.

[00:42:38] And she was-

[00:42:39] Were she in Henderson's Wharf?

[00:42:40] Yes.

[00:42:40] She was down at the wharf and she was so, you know, it was, she was so lovely to let me,

[00:42:47] you know, hang out on her couch.

[00:42:49] I did a lot of couch surfing when I first got on the show.

[00:42:52] Oh, really?

[00:42:53] So, so at that point, not with your nine-year-old daughter?

[00:42:57] No, my daughter was home with my husband, but, so I would come up on the train and then

[00:43:03] go back after the episode was over.

[00:43:06] And, but then when they made me a cast member, I said, I can't do that, that ride all the

[00:43:12] time.

[00:43:12] So we found a house on Fell Street, a three-story, you know, one of those really thin houses.

[00:43:20] It's really, really small.

[00:43:22] Yeah, they're really cool.

[00:43:23] Small staircases and stuff.

[00:43:25] Cause the, the, the, the shipping town of Fell, I guess, Fell Street, Fell's Point, all those

[00:43:34] guys were really tiny.

[00:43:36] So the stairs and everything were small.

[00:43:39] Back in the day, people were littler.

[00:43:40] They were really small.

[00:43:42] So, yeah, it was great, it was great living in Fell's Point.

[00:43:47] I loved Cooper's Tavern was like my, my, it was my kitchen, right?

[00:43:51] Cause I go there.

[00:43:53] And it was always, you know, that was, that was the meeting place for us was Cooper's and,

[00:44:00] and the Daily Grind.

[00:44:02] And I don't know if it's still there.

[00:44:05] Is it there?

[00:44:05] Oh yeah.

[00:44:06] It's still there.

[00:44:06] Is it?

[00:44:07] Oh my gosh.

[00:44:08] Oh my gosh.

[00:44:08] Great, great, great.

[00:44:09] Daily Grind and Cooper's.

[00:44:11] And then he, then he opened a restaurant next door called Slantia.

[00:44:14] Oh really?

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:16] An Irish restaurant.

[00:44:17] Yeah.

[00:44:17] And it's still Patrick.

[00:44:18] Patrick's still running them.

[00:44:19] Yeah.

[00:44:20] Patrick.

[00:44:20] I, yeah.

[00:44:21] Patrick was awesome.

[00:44:22] He is awesome.

[00:44:24] Um, yeah.

[00:44:25] And so we have, we had this like little community that like a lot of the people like Holly Unterberger,

[00:44:35] she was our neighbor and we, we ate at, at Margaret's all the time.

[00:44:40] Breakfast at Margaret's, um, that was right next door to me.

[00:44:45] So I, she, she cooked and I'd smell her food in the morning.

[00:44:49] Oh wow.

[00:44:50] I'm like, I can't eat any of that stuff anymore.

[00:44:53] Oh no.

[00:44:55] Melissa talked about, um, that was her favorite spot to eat.

[00:44:58] Oh, Margaret's was, uh, was amazing.

[00:45:00] Amazing.

[00:45:01] And we met there all the time.

[00:45:03] And then there was a Blue Moon Cafe that we'd go to all the time.

[00:45:06] And so it was, it was really nice to sort of just be, uh, absorb the environment.

[00:45:13] Like the, the, uh, the, the homicide detective that I wrote, did the write along with, she drove

[00:45:18] me all the way through and gave me history of, you know, of pig town and things like, you

[00:45:24] know, the other areas of the, of the city and what areas, how they came to be and what,

[00:45:30] what happened with the people there.

[00:45:32] And so it was, uh, it was really, I just felt like I was part of Baltimore and Baltimore was

[00:45:41] part of me.

[00:45:42] I really loved it there.

[00:45:43] I really, really loved it there.

[00:45:45] Wow.

[00:45:45] That's great.

[00:45:46] Yeah.

[00:45:46] Pig town.

[00:45:47] That's where my mom grew up.

[00:45:48] Really?

[00:45:49] Wow.

[00:45:50] And my, and my great aunt used to say, don't call it pig town.

[00:45:53] They don't drive that.

[00:45:54] They didn't drive the pigs through pig town when I was a kid.

[00:45:57] How did it become pig town?

[00:45:59] That's why it was called pig town.

[00:46:00] They can't, they can't, the, the, the livestock coming off, coming off the boats and they would

[00:46:05] apparently drive the pigs through town.

[00:46:07] They drove the pigs through that, that part of town.

[00:46:09] But, but yeah, yeah, she grew, yeah, she grew up there on Cross Street.

[00:46:13] That's so cool.

[00:46:14] So go ahead, Chris.

[00:46:14] With the filming, it was there such thing as a sort of typical day on homicide?

[00:46:19] What was it like sort of working day to day on that show?

[00:46:22] Were there any sort of things you can sort of tell us?

[00:46:24] For me, a day was always a daily grind first thing.

[00:46:30] And if, if I couldn't get there, somebody else, you know, somebody else would bring me a day to grind.

[00:46:36] I was always, you know, first thing is makeup.

[00:46:39] Mary, my favorite, my Mary.

[00:46:43] She would come in with notes from the network about my hair, usually.

[00:46:50] Oh, wow.

[00:46:51] Really?

[00:46:52] About your hair.

[00:46:53] Really?

[00:46:53] But your hair was so short.

[00:46:55] What was, what was wrong with your hair?

[00:46:56] They didn't like it.

[00:46:57] They didn't like my hair.

[00:46:59] What, what were they going to do with it?

[00:47:00] They wouldn't have a ponytail.

[00:47:02] I guess I was just too.

[00:47:03] That's right.

[00:47:03] Give her a clip one ponytail.

[00:47:04] I was, I guess I, I don't know.

[00:47:07] Maybe I was too butch.

[00:47:08] I don't know.

[00:47:09] But they wanted, they wanted me to be a lot softer.

[00:47:15] So they would give notes about softening my hair up or softening something up about me.

[00:47:23] I was too hard.

[00:47:25] I was like, I thought that's what you wanted.

[00:47:29] But, you know, network wasn't really, I think they weren't really happy.

[00:47:35] With that level of, of authenticity.

[00:47:40] I'll just say that.

[00:47:41] I'll just say that.

[00:47:43] So.

[00:47:44] Well, they tried to put, you know, makeup on Melissa until she finally was like, no.

[00:47:50] Makeup.

[00:47:52] So.

[00:47:52] I didn't have.

[00:47:53] Same experience.

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:54] I mean, I didn't have that.

[00:47:56] I mean, I, like I said, it was my first thing.

[00:47:58] I didn't, I didn't know anything.

[00:48:00] So if they said, this is how you have to be today.

[00:48:04] I'm like, okay, that's how I have to be today.

[00:48:07] Okay.

[00:48:07] So how am I going to do that?

[00:48:09] How I be, how am I going to be softer today?

[00:48:12] You know, how am I going to make myself softer today?

[00:48:15] It's a bit of a confusing note, isn't it?

[00:48:16] Yeah.

[00:48:17] A lot of confusing notes.

[00:48:19] Here's your Glock.

[00:48:20] Now be soft.

[00:48:21] Yeah.

[00:48:22] Here's your Glock.

[00:48:22] Make it fluffy.

[00:48:24] Do a drug bust, but be soft.

[00:48:26] Be hard, be hard, but do it nurturingly, right?

[00:48:29] Do it in a nurturing way.

[00:48:32] So it was, it was a little confusing day to day that, you know, you come in and you have

[00:48:38] notes from the network that would be like, what, how, how do I do this?

[00:48:42] So, so the makeup, hair and makeup was amazing.

[00:48:46] Like everything else, the people were, were so accommodating and everything.

[00:48:53] And Mary, she was head hair.

[00:48:59] Okay.

[00:48:59] And so she took me under her wing and she was like, come on, girl, we'll figure something

[00:49:04] out.

[00:49:05] We'll figure something out.

[00:49:06] We were always figuring something out.

[00:49:09] It was just, it was a, it was a constant stream of what are we going to do with her?

[00:49:14] What are we going to do with her?

[00:49:16] So, so I think they brought Callie in and then, and then Michael Michelle, because they

[00:49:22] were, they were softer, you know, maybe they wanted, they wanted to maybe take the show

[00:49:27] in a different direction or something.

[00:49:29] I don't know.

[00:49:32] But, so dealing with that and then, but I never had to worry about wardrobe.

[00:49:38] Wardrobe was always perfect.

[00:49:41] The only thing, hair, hair, makeup was perfect.

[00:49:45] The only thing for me was hair.

[00:49:47] They had a problem with my hair.

[00:49:48] So every day that was something that I had to deal with.

[00:49:52] And then, you know, it's just a lot of sitting around waiting for things to happen, waiting

[00:49:58] for this scene to be over and then to get in.

[00:50:01] And, and that was something that was hard for me to get into too, because as a theater

[00:50:08] actor, you know, you're waiting in the background, but you know, when you, you know, it's going

[00:50:13] to happen and it's going to happen soon.

[00:50:16] But two hours of action.

[00:50:18] It could take forever.

[00:50:20] So it's just the day in a life of, of TV is, and TV is changing so much now, right?

[00:50:27] You know, got all this reality, non-scripted TV that I don't know how, how they go through

[00:50:35] their day, but, but that was, that was, it was a lot of waiting around.

[00:50:41] And a lot of times when, I don't know if you know Jelko, who was the, the public defender,

[00:50:48] his, his trailer was next to mine most, a lot of the time.

[00:50:52] So we would, you know, you sit, sit on our stew and just wait.

[00:50:58] And how did you find the shooting style of the show?

[00:51:00] Because obviously it's all handheld and, and yeah, it seems kind of quite a wild way to

[00:51:05] shoot.

[00:51:06] Okay.

[00:51:06] So, so, so Susan, I, I had a question for you and, and this is something that I've always

[00:51:11] wanted to know is that when, like when the, the camera would start for me, the camera would

[00:51:18] start, I would always have this like tick in my neck.

[00:51:23] I would feel it.

[00:51:24] And as soon as the camera would start, because I was always like, now I'd have this, this

[00:51:30] little tick in my neck.

[00:51:33] I was always like, I know they see this.

[00:51:36] I know they see.

[00:51:37] Did you ever see me do that?

[00:51:38] Like, you mean you physically had to do that or because you were reacting to the sound of

[00:51:42] the camera?

[00:51:43] No, it was a, it was a always a nervous thing that would always happen.

[00:51:47] And I was like, oh gosh, I don't know if they ever see that.

[00:51:50] I was, you ever, did you ever see that?

[00:51:52] Now people are going to look for it.

[00:51:53] I have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:51:58] So like every time the camera rolled, you did something?

[00:52:01] My, my neck would go like, like that.

[00:52:03] And, and it would be like, okay, here we go.

[00:52:06] Like you're ready.

[00:52:07] Here we go.

[00:52:08] And I was like, cause if, you know, if I'm on stage that, that doesn't translate, right?

[00:52:13] When the camera is right here, you know, and, and, and I'm going to look for that now.

[00:52:18] I know, I know.

[00:52:19] I knew if you were going to, but when the camera and, and I maybe worked on that.

[00:52:23] I worked with John maybe a few times, but Alex would get right up in your face like that.

[00:52:30] It's like, oh my God.

[00:52:35] Yeah.

[00:52:35] John, I guess did it.

[00:52:37] Chris, what, John came back into direct.

[00:52:39] I don't remember it was.

[00:52:40] He did the movie.

[00:52:41] When you were there.

[00:52:42] He did do the movie.

[00:52:42] And then he did the movie.

[00:52:43] Yes.

[00:52:44] And then he did the movie.

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:45] Interesting.

[00:52:46] I think he operated the camera occasionally directed too, didn't he?

[00:52:49] So that's probably where you got.

[00:52:50] Oh, he always operated the camera even when he directed.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:54] And Alex here, got to go, got to go.

[00:52:56] He was, he was, you know.

[00:52:57] Sorry.

[00:52:58] Alex, right?

[00:52:59] He liked it.

[00:52:59] Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go.

[00:53:01] Let's go, let's go.

[00:53:03] That's funny.

[00:53:04] That's funny.

[00:53:05] So, so was, was the fact that you had to always be on when the camera was on, you know,

[00:53:11] it wasn't the traditional shooting style where you knew you could like slack off because

[00:53:14] they were doing overs or they were doing a closeup on somebody else.

[00:53:17] The fact that they could whip around and they always did at the end for that last beat.

[00:53:24] Was that something that worked for you?

[00:53:26] Because if you didn't have television or, or traditional filmmaking experience, did that

[00:53:31] just, was that sort of natural for you that you, I'm, I'm, I'm playing all the way through

[00:53:35] the scene, whether I'm on camera or not.

[00:53:38] Did that sort of just, you know, natural to you as a theater actor?

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:43] Even no matter what you're on, like you're on the, if you're on stage, you're in character

[00:53:49] no matter what, no matter what, even if you think that the, nobody's watching you, you have

[00:53:54] to be in character.

[00:53:56] I used to, I did, after the show was over, I did a musical called Wild Dust.

[00:54:06] And the, there were two Disney writers who, who wrote their thing and got to the first

[00:54:14] rehearsal and all of my lines were gone.

[00:54:19] So I was like, oh, okay.

[00:54:21] Oh, really?

[00:54:22] So.

[00:54:22] You mean not, not like out of your head, but off the script?

[00:54:25] Off the script.

[00:54:25] Jeez.

[00:54:26] And, but I was still on stage, right?

[00:54:28] I was still on stage, but the, the, the, all my lines were gone.

[00:54:32] So, you know, as an actor, you just have to roll with it and, uh, it's not always fair

[00:54:39] things that happen.

[00:54:41] Um, but you have to be creative, right?

[00:54:45] And you always have to be on, you always have to be on, always be doing something.

[00:54:51] Right.

[00:54:51] So I didn't have any lines, but what I could do was break the fourth wall and talk to

[00:54:57] the audience with my eyes and with what I was doing.

[00:55:01] Right.

[00:55:01] So I wasn't pulling focus at that point, but I had to do something.

[00:55:07] I wasn't going to stand there and not do anything.

[00:55:10] Right.

[00:55:11] I wasn't just going to be, I'm, I'm behind the bar.

[00:55:14] But with, if you're behind the bar and you're the bartender, what are you doing?

[00:55:18] You know, what is it, what is the part, what do bartenders do?

[00:55:22] So those are the kinds of things that, that, um, you know, you, you're ready for the camera

[00:55:27] to whip back around.

[00:55:29] You're, you're waiting for it.

[00:55:30] I was always waiting for it, for the camera to whip back around.

[00:55:34] That's cool.

[00:55:36] Any, um, memories of directors you work with?

[00:55:39] Cause obviously you're directed by Clark and Carl on a couple of episodes.

[00:55:43] Um, and then you've had Peter Medak, um, and various other directors, any, any directors

[00:55:48] stand out for you?

[00:55:50] I think your first episode was Ken, Ken Fink, who came back quite a bit.

[00:55:54] Yeah.

[00:55:55] He and I had big arguments.

[00:55:57] Oh, let's hear about that.

[00:55:58] I love, I love Ken Fink.

[00:56:03] Was that about characterization or?

[00:56:05] It was about, it was, it was, it was, we was late and we were doing a scene and all

[00:56:13] the, all the guys were, you know, John and all the guy, Clark and all the guys were in

[00:56:18] the scene and, and, and Ken wanted to make this about the guys, you know, it's like,

[00:56:22] and the girls were, I guess, I don't know if Callie was in the scene.

[00:56:26] I can't even remember, but it was, it was, I was tired and I was, I, I, I was, and,

[00:56:33] and I was, I'm always the, the one who's like, oh, okay, whatever you want to do, whatever,

[00:56:39] whatever, whatever.

[00:56:40] But this, on this day, for some reason, I was like, uh-uh, hell to the no.

[00:56:48] I am not sitting around here for hours and hours and hours for you to then tell me that

[00:56:54] I get to stand over here and just be quiet.

[00:56:57] I'm part of this scene, you know?

[00:57:00] You didn't make me sit here for hours so that I could be background.

[00:57:04] You're not paying me for that.

[00:57:06] Right.

[00:57:07] I, I got really kind of mad about it and I started to be the angry black woman that people

[00:57:15] think we are, but, um, because it was, it wasn't right.

[00:57:19] It wasn't right.

[00:57:20] And I, and I had to tell them about it and I got loud about it and some people got mad at

[00:57:26] me about it.

[00:57:26] But, and I had never done anything like that before, but at that point I was tired and I

[00:57:34] wasn't going to play that crap about, you know, you're the woman, you stand to the side.

[00:57:39] Yeah.

[00:57:39] No, no, no.

[00:57:41] Good for you.

[00:57:42] Not going to happen.

[00:57:43] Melissa talked about standing up for herself too.

[00:57:45] Yeah.

[00:57:46] And I love Ken Fink.

[00:57:47] I love Ken Fink.

[00:57:48] I, he, you know, you have to, and I love Ken Fink.

[00:57:52] I invited him over to our house for, you know, we, we, we, you know, we, we were, we hung

[00:57:57] out together and it's fine.

[00:57:59] It was, it was fine.

[00:58:00] But you, you have to speak up for yourself or if you, because if you don't, and I found

[00:58:06] that out so many times because I didn't know what I was supposed to be doing and people weren't

[00:58:13] telling you, right.

[00:58:14] You had to either ask questions or find out and find out on your own, or you had to sort

[00:58:19] of fall into the answer somehow.

[00:58:22] And at that point I was like, I didn't really give two Fs about it at that point.

[00:58:28] I just wanted, I just wanted to go home and I was tired and I didn't feel like this was,

[00:58:33] this was fair.

[00:58:34] Yeah.

[00:58:35] And I, and I stood, and I thought that this is in this moment, I'm going to say something

[00:58:39] and, and you're going to hear me.

[00:58:42] Stivers, Stivers would have done that too.

[00:58:44] Did you feel as a woman sometimes that you were made just to be background in certain

[00:58:49] situations?

[00:58:50] Yeah.

[00:58:52] And, you know, and sometimes it's so, it's fine when you're in the squad room and you're

[00:58:56] just at your desk and you're, you're hanging around and that's fine.

[00:58:59] That's what, that's what, that's the work.

[00:59:01] That's the scene.

[00:59:03] But, you know, don't make me stand around here, wait for hours and hours just to stand

[00:59:09] in the background and do that thing.

[00:59:11] Yeah, totally.

[00:59:12] No, I'm not going to do that.

[00:59:14] Well, flipping it around, what was it like being directed by your fellow castmates like

[00:59:18] Clark and Kyle?

[00:59:20] Kyle never directed me.

[00:59:21] I don't remember Kyle directing me.

[00:59:24] I don't remember.

[00:59:25] Maybe Clark did direct one episode that I was in, but mostly I don't remember.

[00:59:33] I worked with, oh, where's the female directors?

[00:59:39] Kathy Bates?

[00:59:41] Kathy Bates and, and, and.

[00:59:43] Catherine Bigelow?

[00:59:45] Catherine Bigelow.

[00:59:47] Oh God, she was amazing.

[00:59:49] She was amazing.

[00:59:50] And she's like, and I, and I felt so vindicated that I had gone to the gun range and done the

[00:59:57] work that I did.

[00:59:59] Cause she came up to me and she said, good gun work.

[01:00:03] And I was like, yes, yes.

[01:00:05] Oh, awesome.

[01:00:06] Yeah.

[01:00:07] Cause she knew her guns, but that's how she got there.

[01:00:09] Right?

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:10] Yes, she did.

[01:00:11] Were you better than the guys then on this?

[01:00:13] I don't know.

[01:00:15] I don't know, but it was so funny.

[01:00:17] Probably the ones that didn't do that.

[01:00:17] Like the, the, the one funny thing that I remember is like that we were working at night

[01:00:22] and, and this, this, we heard this guy go, stop that guy, stop that guy.

[01:00:27] And it was a guy who had just like shoplifted from one of the CVS or something.

[01:00:33] And he ran onto the set and we all had like uniforms and guns.

[01:00:38] And he was like, ah, it was so funny.

[01:00:44] It was so funny.

[01:00:46] And, and the, the cop was, and the, the store cop, the, the security guard, he was, he

[01:00:52] was like, ah, what's happening here?

[01:00:59] He called for backup, but he got a lot more.

[01:01:01] He did.

[01:01:03] He caught his guy that night.

[01:01:05] That's right.

[01:01:05] Everybody had their Glocks out when he came around the corner.

[01:01:08] But yeah, he worked with amazing directors like Catherine Bigelow and Kathy Bates, et cetera.

[01:01:12] And yeah, Catherine Bigelow is such an amazing action director.

[01:01:15] So she was brought in for the Fallen Heroes episode, wasn't it?

[01:01:19] That was, that was a big one.

[01:01:23] That was a big one.

[01:01:24] So yeah, it was big.

[01:01:27] Who was, who was the guy who shot up the?

[01:01:30] Junior Bunk.

[01:01:31] Yeah, it was Mackay Pfeiffer.

[01:01:32] Mackay Pfeiffer.

[01:01:33] Yeah.

[01:01:35] He's so amazing.

[01:01:38] And so I was like, he was such a baby when he did Homicide.

[01:01:43] I was like, and then I've seen him, you know, through the years.

[01:01:46] I'm like, oh my gosh, he was such a baby.

[01:01:49] And now look at him.

[01:01:52] He's amazing.

[01:01:53] Yeah.

[01:01:54] I mean, there's quite a lot of amazing guest cast.

[01:01:55] I don't know if there's anybody else who comes to mind who you work with and now you see

[01:01:59] them years later and you think, oh my goodness, they were so small or whatever when you worked

[01:02:03] with them.

[01:02:03] Every, so many people from Homicide are gone now.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:09] That's sad.

[01:02:10] And your question earlier, yeah, Lou DiGiama was gone.

[01:02:15] Oh, yeah.

[01:02:17] He was amazing.

[01:02:18] And, and, um, Yafet and, and, uh, Richard Belzer.

[01:02:24] That was a, that was a shock for me.

[01:02:27] It's like, wow.

[01:02:29] Just to be on the same planet and not know that he's on the planet.

[01:02:35] You know, it's like, I guess, you know, it's that way for everybody, but it's like,

[01:02:39] because Richard Belzer was such a staple in, in television for, you know, for so many years

[01:02:44] on so many shows, you know?

[01:02:47] And, uh, it's like, you, you, you look at something like that.

[01:02:50] You expect to see him there reading his newspaper.

[01:02:53] Right.

[01:02:53] Yeah.

[01:02:54] Cause he did some like 18 seasons of Law and Order after Homicide.

[01:02:57] So he played, I think he might have the record for longest running TV character.

[01:03:01] He must have.

[01:03:01] Yeah.

[01:03:02] I think, I think he does.

[01:03:03] Didn't you tell me that?

[01:03:04] Yeah.

[01:03:04] I think somebody said he, he was the longest running TV character going from show to show

[01:03:09] as the same character.

[01:03:11] Yeah.

[01:03:11] Yeah.

[01:03:11] I know Kelsey Grammer's trying at Frasier, but I think,

[01:03:14] I think, um, yeah, I think Belzer might've done it.

[01:03:18] I don't know.

[01:03:19] I have to check.

[01:03:19] Somebody has to fact check.

[01:03:21] Wow.

[01:03:22] Yeah.

[01:03:23] Yeah.

[01:03:23] So you're talking about night work before.

[01:03:25] Um, we did work a lot of night work, you know, we'd start, I'm sure you remember Monday

[01:03:29] morning would be a 7am call and then Wednesday would be a noon call or a 1pm call.

[01:03:34] And then by Friday it was three or four or five.

[01:03:38] Um, obviously you don't work at night.

[01:03:41] Well, you do work at night in the theater, don't you?

[01:03:45] Um, was that, was that, was that, was that, um, you know, a transition or, or, or you used

[01:03:51] to be in, you know, coming out of the theater at, at midnight.

[01:03:54] Oh man, it's nothing like it being in the theater till, till, you know, the wee hours

[01:04:00] of the morning.

[01:04:01] Um, but you're working right.

[01:04:05] The whole time in theater, you're always working.

[01:04:09] I mean, there are times when people are working on their own scenes or whatever, but everybody's

[01:04:14] working.

[01:04:14] Right.

[01:04:14] Right.

[01:04:15] And in TV, that's not necessarily the case.

[01:04:18] You just sit, you're sitting and, and you could be working, you know, you probably should

[01:04:23] be working, but, um, you know, something, but, uh, it's just so much sitting around and when

[01:04:28] it's late and, and, and you've got night shoots and stuff.

[01:04:32] And, and when you're a parent and, you know, and you, you, you, you miss so much, um, when

[01:04:39] those late nights are, are happening and it's, it's, uh, it, it, it can throw your, your life

[01:04:44] off a little bit.

[01:04:45] Um, but you know, the, that's the, the cost of the work.

[01:04:51] So was Chris down here down, was Chris in Baltimore with you most of the time?

[01:04:55] Okay.

[01:04:56] Well, that's good.

[01:04:56] At least you had a.

[01:04:57] In the beginning, no, we, I drove back and forth, but, um, then we, we got, we rented

[01:05:02] that house and on fell street.

[01:05:04] And, uh, and so we moved everything down to, to Baltimore.

[01:05:11] Uh, and it was, uh, my daughter was at the, the park school.

[01:05:17] Oh, it's out near my way.

[01:05:18] Yeah.

[01:05:19] So she was there and we, we loved that school.

[01:05:22] It was good.

[01:05:23] It was good for her.

[01:05:23] And, and, and Andre Brower was, he was so kind, such a, such a kind person.

[01:05:32] Uh, when, um, when my daughter did come finally come and join, uh, join me here, uh, join

[01:05:40] me there.

[01:05:40] Uh, he, uh, he gave me names of people who could babysit her and, and, uh, he gave me, you

[01:05:49] know, gave me some pointers on how to, how to, how to do it.

[01:05:53] Cause I do.

[01:05:54] Right.

[01:05:54] Cause they had just Michael at the time.

[01:05:56] They had their, he was a toddler.

[01:05:58] Their, their son was a toddler at the time.

[01:06:00] I remember three or maybe three or four.

[01:06:02] And his wife, and his wife is an actress and she was doing her own thing and she's, she's

[01:06:09] an amazing actress in her own right.

[01:06:11] Um, so they both, you know, they both had to deal with, with, uh, with how to, to do it

[01:06:17] with kids.

[01:06:18] Right.

[01:06:18] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:19] It's funny.

[01:06:20] I often forget that Yafet's daughter, um, was a, a cop, a background, regular, regular

[01:06:27] background actress at times.

[01:06:28] And the scene where I was just watching it this morning where, um, Luther Mahoney gets

[01:06:34] off because you guys don't have, you have a lot of evidence, but nothing that is going

[01:06:41] to hold up in court.

[01:06:42] Um, about the fact that he knew, um, that he knew that, uh, how the other drug dealer

[01:06:51] was murdered and that there was a, a Glock on the table in front of him and that he was

[01:06:54] shot in the back of the head.

[01:06:55] Um, but that when they went into the home, the front door was open.

[01:07:01] So anyway, so Luther Mahoney's case falls apart and they let him go.

[01:07:06] And the person that escorts Luther Mahoney down the steps and out the door is Yafet's

[01:07:13] daughter.

[01:07:13] And then you and, and Reed or you and Clark are out front as Luther's getting let go.

[01:07:18] It was a night scene as, as Luther's letting get go, you know, in, into his limousine or

[01:07:24] whatever, like super high luxury car.

[01:07:27] And he has this huge grin on his face, but it was funny.

[01:07:30] I was watching, I was like, oh yeah, Yafet's daughter was also in the show from time to

[01:07:35] time in full uniform, you know?

[01:07:37] And then she, she sort of toddles back up.

[01:07:39] There are a lot of people who, a lot of people who, um, you know, that just were always there.

[01:07:46] The, the background of people who, who, who supported us.

[01:07:51] So, um, just in all, always they stayed, whatever, you know, they were always so amazing and, and,

[01:08:01] you know, that background people don't really get a whole lot of credit, but they, they create

[01:08:07] the scene, you know?

[01:08:08] And the fact that we had the regular squad room background extras, they were regular actors

[01:08:13] there all the time.

[01:08:14] It wasn't like whoever we happened to pull in this week.

[01:08:17] It was the same group of, of, you know, background police officers and office staff.

[01:08:22] So that I think really heightened the reality of the show.

[01:08:26] Yes.

[01:08:27] Yes.

[01:08:27] Because you recognize people back there behind you, right?

[01:08:30] Oh, there's that guy again.

[01:08:32] Yeah.

[01:08:32] He's really a cop.

[01:08:33] There he is again.

[01:08:34] Or she.

[01:08:35] I know.

[01:08:36] It was so, you know, it's so, it's like the, what I remember, um, at the end when, uh, we

[01:08:44] were still living there when the show ended and, um, and it was, it was loadout day.

[01:08:53] People were taking the set down and Tom was there.

[01:08:56] Mm-hmm.

[01:08:57] And he and I, we were walking through the set, you know, walking around and you could

[01:09:03] hear all the, the hammering and all that stuff.

[01:09:07] Mm-hmm.

[01:09:07] And, and for me, it was, it was such a, a sad moment because it was, you know, how it's

[01:09:19] your first thing.

[01:09:21] And it's been years and, and, um, and it's ending and, you know, and, and, uh, and that

[01:09:29] walk around the set with Tom for me, I'll never, it, I'll just never forget it.

[01:09:34] It's a moment that is in depth, indelibly, you know, it's in my brain.

[01:09:41] And he, uh, he and I walked past Stiver's desk and, uh, he went and took her certificates

[01:09:49] off the wall and handed them to me.

[01:09:52] I was going to say, did you take, what'd you take with you?

[01:09:54] You should have taken some souvenirs while you were there.

[01:09:56] And, uh, and the name plate from the desk.

[01:10:00] Oh, nice.

[01:10:01] He handed, handed me all those things.

[01:10:03] Oh, that's brilliant.

[01:10:04] And, and I just started, like, I just started bawling and he gave me a big hug and it was

[01:10:10] like, he's, you know, he, um, he was, um, he is my, one of my, in my soul family.

[01:10:19] And he's, he's just means so much to me.

[01:10:22] He's an amazing guy.

[01:10:23] Really, really sweet guy.

[01:10:25] Amazing, amazing guy, amazing human being.

[01:10:29] And the writing is just, you know, it's just impeccable.

[01:10:34] And his, his professionalism and his, his, uh, his dedication to the art and to the craft.

[01:10:42] And, um, he's just the, if you want to have a role model, that is the person that you should

[01:10:49] choose because he has it all.

[01:10:52] He has it all.

[01:10:53] And mentor.

[01:10:54] How many people he mentored?

[01:10:55] Oh, so many.

[01:10:57] Yeah.

[01:10:57] In that situation.

[01:10:58] So many.

[01:10:59] That are doing really well now.

[01:11:00] Right?

[01:11:00] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:01] Julie Martin.

[01:11:03] Julie, she, she's, she's.

[01:11:05] Julie, David Simon.

[01:11:07] I mean, the people that came in green, you know, that are now very successful long-term

[01:11:12] producers and writers.

[01:11:16] So writers.

[01:11:16] Yeah.

[01:11:17] If you felt like that, that day, did you know the movie was coming along?

[01:11:22] Mm-mm.

[01:11:23] Do you remember getting that call and what that felt like?

[01:11:26] Yeah.

[01:11:27] It felt like got one more time, got one more chance to do it.

[01:11:31] Yay.

[01:11:31] Getting the gang, getting the band back together.

[01:11:34] Let's do that.

[01:11:36] Yeah.

[01:11:37] It's kind of amazing.

[01:11:37] They got everybody together.

[01:11:39] Yeah.

[01:11:39] Yeah, and it was good that it happened then.

[01:11:43] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:44] Because it was what?

[01:11:45] A year?

[01:11:45] Two years later?

[01:11:46] It wasn't what?

[01:11:47] About that.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:48] Because it was 2000, I think the movie was.

[01:11:50] Mm-hmm.

[01:11:51] Or was it?

[01:11:52] God, I had to rebuild the whole set and everything.

[01:11:54] Wow.

[01:11:54] Yeah.

[01:11:55] It's crazy.

[01:11:55] I didn't work on the movie, so I was already off being a reporter, a newspaper reporter.

[01:12:00] A bit of a changed career.

[01:12:04] David Simon and all the wonderful writers that we had.

[01:12:10] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:11] And just so many writers came through that show and went on to do so many great things.

[01:12:19] And, you know, like I've met people who knew Tom from like St. Elsewhere, I think.

[01:12:28] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:28] St. Elsewhere.

[01:12:29] And they were like, this guy, he's amazing.

[01:12:33] And he and David, and he and Barry and David, and they created something special.

[01:12:40] Very, very special.

[01:12:42] Mm-hmm.

[01:12:42] And I'm very, very happy to have been a part of it.

[01:12:47] Oh.

[01:12:48] Yeah.

[01:12:48] So many people we've talked to unbidden, because I didn't know this when we decided to start

[01:12:55] this podcast, which sort of happened, happenstance-ly, if that's a word.

[01:13:00] It is now.

[01:13:02] Yeah.

[01:13:03] Happenstance-ly.

[01:13:03] We'll call it a word.

[01:13:04] We'll call it a word.

[01:13:05] Write that down.

[01:13:07] That so many people, crew, writers, creators, cast said 30 years later.

[01:13:14] And like, that was the last thing I did in the business.

[01:13:16] So it was, you know, it was very close to my heart, because that was the last thing I

[01:13:20] did.

[01:13:20] I had already been in the business 20 years.

[01:13:23] And I left a couple months before the show was finished, and I didn't do the movie.

[01:13:27] So, but people that stayed in the business, which were most of everybody, 30 years later,

[01:13:35] even though they'd been on many, many things since then, said that was the best experience

[01:13:40] of their careers.

[01:13:41] So what was it?

[01:13:42] So, I mean, you articulated that a little bit, but what made it so special?

[01:13:48] Why?

[01:13:49] What for you made it, you know, one of the best experiences?

[01:13:53] I felt safe.

[01:13:58] I mean, as safe as you can be in Hollywood, right?

[01:14:02] Hollywood is a shark tank.

[01:14:05] So I just felt, it was my first thing.

[01:14:11] So it was, you know, I felt safe because I didn't know any better for a lot of things.

[01:14:19] But I just felt like it was a family, you know, because it had gone on for so long.

[01:14:26] And even though it's like, you know, real families, sometimes you have cousins that you

[01:14:32] don't know, you don't really, you don't hang with them, but they're part of your family.

[01:14:37] And the older cast and the newer cast, they came together.

[01:14:46] Even though a lot of us didn't work together, we were still part of that family.

[01:14:51] And everybody still wanted the project to be the best that it could be.

[01:14:58] And you could see that in the performances.

[01:15:03] You could see that in the production work.

[01:15:05] You could see that in the writing.

[01:15:07] You could, it just, you know, across the board, you look everywhere and you could see people

[01:15:12] going, I want this to be the best that it can be, right?

[01:15:17] It's not, you know, like whatever, schlock, whatever.

[01:15:21] It was, this is, this is real.

[01:15:25] This is, this is special.

[01:15:28] And it was.

[01:15:28] And then you got that little bit of a reunion with the, with the movie.

[01:15:32] Yeah.

[01:15:32] Yeah.

[01:15:33] I mean, they had a reunion just a few days ago, actually last week or something.

[01:15:38] Yes, they did.

[01:15:38] Saturday.

[01:15:39] We were looking for you.

[01:15:40] Where were you?

[01:15:41] I'm home.

[01:15:43] No, couldn't get there.

[01:15:46] I just.

[01:15:48] It was, it was pretty trippy.

[01:15:49] I got to say it was pretty, it was wonderful.

[01:15:52] It was, it was kind of amazing.

[01:15:53] Yeah.

[01:15:54] I'm so glad.

[01:15:54] Yeah.

[01:15:55] Well, we missed you.

[01:15:56] We were looking for you.

[01:15:57] Chris and I were talking about you.

[01:15:58] I think Tony's going to be here with Tony.

[01:16:01] Did you see Tony?

[01:16:01] I really wanted to be there.

[01:16:03] It's just that, you know, it's just like, you know, we just bought a house and.

[01:16:07] I hear you.

[01:16:08] And the funds just weren't there.

[01:16:10] So just couldn't do it.

[01:16:14] Just for a weekend.

[01:16:15] If it had been a week, maybe I could have tried to do that.

[01:16:19] But I couldn't, I couldn't get together for just a weekend.

[01:16:24] But I'm sorry that I couldn't be there.

[01:16:26] I missed everybody.

[01:16:26] And I was really hoping that I could see people, but you know, maybe someday we'll get together again.

[01:16:34] Well, they'll, they'll all hear you now.

[01:16:36] So say hi to everyone.

[01:16:37] Yeah.

[01:16:39] Well, I hope they make the reunion a more of a regular thing.

[01:16:42] There's a lot of, obviously a very tight community on that show.

[01:16:46] And it weirdly for me, it felt like being at somebody else's high school reunion.

[01:16:49] So it was a bit weird.

[01:16:52] Except for everybody recognized Chris.

[01:16:54] They recognized me.

[01:16:55] It was hilarious.

[01:16:56] I felt like a celebrity.

[01:16:57] It was really weird.

[01:16:57] It's always been like, oh, I recognize your voice.

[01:16:59] It's like, oh my goodness.

[01:17:00] It's really weird.

[01:17:01] But it was wonderful.

[01:17:02] Yeah.

[01:17:02] Not a lot of British actors or crew people.

[01:17:06] So yeah.

[01:17:07] Chris, I think you stood out a little.

[01:17:09] Yes.

[01:17:10] Patrick is fine.

[01:17:11] He's doing well.

[01:17:13] Yeah.

[01:17:13] He was there.

[01:17:14] Yeah.

[01:17:14] Uh-huh.

[01:17:14] I didn't get a chance to say hi to him.

[01:17:16] He was sort of up in the front and I missed him.

[01:17:18] But yeah.

[01:17:18] And we had, we actually had breakfast.

[01:17:21] Do you remember Lulu, the set dresser?

[01:17:23] She came into town.

[01:17:25] And on Saturday morning, Chris was already here and we went next door to Sláinte and had breakfast together.

[01:17:32] That's nice.

[01:17:33] You see those, that picture, this picture back here?

[01:17:37] This picture right here is a picture that we did.

[01:17:41] We had a fundraiser for a community center in Baltimore and they had an auction.

[01:17:53] And it was the first auction that I could ever participate in.

[01:17:58] And it was me and Giancarlo Esposito auctioning.

[01:18:03] Oh, nice.

[01:18:04] The picture?

[01:18:04] Bidding for this picture.

[01:18:05] We were both bidding for this picture right here.

[01:18:08] And I won the first time because there are two and there's another one on this wall over here.

[01:18:16] And what are they pictures of?

[01:18:17] Pictures of little kids touching trees.

[01:18:21] I don't think I can get over there, but they're all, they have their hands on the trees.

[01:18:26] And he and I got into this bidding war over this second picture.

[01:18:34] Thanks, Giancarlo.

[01:18:36] We'll get his side of the story when we get him on.

[01:18:39] We got into this bidding war and he won, of course.

[01:18:41] He won.

[01:18:41] I was tapped out.

[01:18:43] So he won.

[01:18:45] But at the end of the season, I mean, at series, at end of the series, he sent it to me.

[01:18:51] Oh, really?

[01:18:53] He sent you won?

[01:18:53] He sent the picture that he won.

[01:18:54] Oh, that's sweet.

[01:18:55] So that now I have matching sets.

[01:18:59] Oh, you were bidding on the second one.

[01:19:02] You had the bidding war over.

[01:19:04] Oh, interesting.

[01:19:05] He's so sweet.

[01:19:07] And he sent that to me after the show was over.

[01:19:12] That was very, very sweet.

[01:19:14] Very sweet.

[01:19:15] So, you know, it was like I'm saying, it's the sort of a family situation where we're always going to have that connection.

[01:19:25] We're always going to have that little bit of a connection of this perfection that we were all a part of.

[01:19:34] It just felt like, for me anyway.

[01:19:37] Yeah.

[01:19:37] Yeah.

[01:19:38] What was it like working John Collard?

[01:19:39] Because he comes in season seven as Gia Dello's son.

[01:19:42] He's such a great actor.

[01:19:43] I didn't really work with him.

[01:19:45] So, I mean, I'm sure he's, I mean, I met him and I.

[01:19:49] In the same episode.

[01:19:50] Right.

[01:19:50] But, but I've, you know, watched his work and I've seen his work for years and years and years.

[01:19:56] And he's an amazing, amazing actor.

[01:19:58] And he and his family are just, just adorable.

[01:20:05] So.

[01:20:06] On a slightly different note.

[01:20:08] So you mentioned earlier, obviously you lived in Baltimore for some time.

[01:20:11] You've even mentioned Cooper's Tavern already as a place you like to go to.

[01:20:15] But Baltimore is also famous for its food.

[01:20:17] And I was wondering if you had any favorite dishes that kept you going whilst you were there.

[01:20:21] Because we've had, well, we've had, we've had scrapple.

[01:20:24] We've had crab.

[01:20:25] We've had gizzards.

[01:20:26] I was wondering if anything you liked that you enjoyed while you were there.

[01:20:29] When I first got there, when I first got there, like they had a picnic or something.

[01:20:37] And it was a crab thing.

[01:20:38] And they threw all the crabs on the table and people, and I'm not a shellfish person.

[01:20:44] So I.

[01:20:46] You recoiled, I'm sure.

[01:20:48] I was like.

[01:20:49] That's what people do from out of town.

[01:20:51] They're like, what the hell is that?

[01:20:53] And all the bay seasoning and everything.

[01:20:55] And people were diving in with their hands.

[01:20:58] And I was like, okay, I like a good crab cake, but I like it in the restaurant cooked already.

[01:21:07] Already dealt with.

[01:21:08] Yeah, yeah.

[01:21:08] I don't want to deal with, I don't want to deal with these legs and stuff and sinewy stuff.

[01:21:14] Mm-mm.

[01:21:17] Yeah.

[01:21:17] It's not often.

[01:21:18] I mean, people, when they first hear crabs, they think, oh, I've had Alaskan crabs.

[01:21:22] Or I've had this kind of, you know, break the leg off.

[01:21:24] Or I've had a lobster where they've already cleaned it out for me.

[01:21:26] You know, first time somebody sees a Baltimore steamed crab and sees somebody.

[01:21:31] Oh, I had a friend when I lived in L.A. who shall remain nameless.

[01:21:35] I don't want to embarrass her.

[01:21:36] And we went.

[01:21:37] There was one crab house when I lived in L.A. called the Maryland Crab House.

[01:21:40] I was like, oh, yeah, right.

[01:21:41] Anyway, we went there.

[01:21:43] And we got the steamed crabs.

[01:21:44] And when I cracked it open, she almost fell out of her chair.

[01:21:50] I think she turned green, too.

[01:21:52] But if you grow up with her, you're used to it.

[01:21:55] Yeah, it doesn't.

[01:21:56] So in Fell's Point, you mentioned Margaret's.

[01:21:59] Were there any other dishes besides the scary crabs that you experienced?

[01:22:06] I love that Blue Moon Cafe for pancakes and stuff, even though I didn't really eat a whole lot of pancakes back then.

[01:22:14] Was that the one uptown?

[01:22:16] Not in the area, the one that was uptown near Hopkins?

[01:22:19] No, it was in Fell's Point, but it was off the beaten path.

[01:22:23] It was, I can't really remember exactly where it was, but it was a little off the beaten path.

[01:22:30] Oh, I remember it.

[01:22:31] I'm thinking of something else.

[01:22:32] You go in there, it was so crowded.

[01:22:34] The building was blue.

[01:22:35] So crowded, and everybody's like this.

[01:22:38] Yes, and they were famous for the pancakes.

[01:22:41] Famous for their blueberry pancakes.

[01:22:44] I think it was blueberry pancakes or something.

[01:22:47] And my daughter loved that place, and so we'd go there all the time.

[01:22:52] And I always, like Cooper's was, the only thing I ever got at Cooper's was Caesar salad and French fries.

[01:23:00] That was my dish.

[01:23:03] I had their fries when I first arrived in Baltimore.

[01:23:06] Great fries.

[01:23:07] Really good fries.

[01:23:08] They have good food.

[01:23:09] Really good fries.

[01:23:10] And so great that they're still there.

[01:23:11] It was the only time that I, you know, I really sort of got off my diet was when I was at, you know, go to Cooper's to get some French fries.

[01:23:21] And that's the perfect food pairing.

[01:23:23] I know, right?

[01:23:24] I'm sorry.

[01:23:24] That's not off your diet.

[01:23:25] Come on.

[01:23:26] Caesar salad and French fries is like a perfectly balanced meal.

[01:23:29] I mean, I do that all the time.

[01:23:30] Except this Greek salad and French fries.

[01:23:33] Yeah.

[01:23:34] It was.

[01:23:35] Sorry, what else?

[01:23:35] I was just going to say something else.

[01:23:37] I'm sorry.

[01:23:37] I think that's about it.

[01:23:38] I didn't.

[01:23:38] No scrapple for you then?

[01:23:42] You know, I met.

[01:23:44] No organ meats for you?

[01:23:46] Come on.

[01:23:47] From college.

[01:23:49] I had a friend from college who lived in, who grew up in Philadelphia.

[01:23:54] And scrapple was a big thing, is a big thing there.

[01:23:57] And when I went to visit her, she, you know, she made some for me.

[01:24:04] And, you know, it was okay.

[01:24:06] It was okay.

[01:24:07] But, you know, I'm a black woman.

[01:24:11] I know about chitlins and stuff like that.

[01:24:14] I never eat them.

[01:24:15] I've never eaten them.

[01:24:16] Right.

[01:24:16] But I know that they exist.

[01:24:18] And I'm not really a big fan of scrapple.

[01:24:21] All of that to say, I'm not a big fan of scrapple.

[01:24:24] That's all right.

[01:24:25] It's fair enough.

[01:24:26] It's fair enough.

[01:24:27] It's a once a year thing.

[01:24:28] I had my first ever go at it.

[01:24:30] I had my first ever experience of it in Washington, D.C.

[01:24:33] And it was good.

[01:24:34] It was good.

[01:24:35] Yeah.

[01:24:35] It was.

[01:24:36] Yeah.

[01:24:36] It was.

[01:24:37] It was right with fried eggs and some ketchup.

[01:24:39] It was.

[01:24:40] Yeah.

[01:24:41] Just don't look at the ingredients.

[01:24:42] No, no.

[01:24:42] A lot of things are best not to.

[01:24:44] Yeah.

[01:24:45] Yeah.

[01:24:45] Yeah.

[01:24:45] Yeah.

[01:24:45] Yeah.

[01:24:45] Which is why I was like, yeah, you know, we've done the chitlins thing.

[01:24:51] Yeah.

[01:24:52] Even if you've done haggis.

[01:24:54] Haggis.

[01:24:55] Oh, my gosh.

[01:24:56] Chris, you got to get us some haggis.

[01:24:58] Oh, my gosh.

[01:24:58] You're worried about a scrapple.

[01:25:01] Or the Greek version of haggis called kokoretsi, which is even more exciting.

[01:25:06] Yeah.

[01:25:06] I don't know what that is.

[01:25:08] I mean, I used to work.

[01:25:10] I did some catering work at the British residents, consulate residents.

[01:25:17] Oh, really?

[01:25:18] Yeah.

[01:25:18] So I learned a lot about British foods, you know.

[01:25:23] It's a very bad one.

[01:25:24] About how bad it is.

[01:25:25] Oh, just kidding.

[01:25:26] There is some really good stuff.

[01:25:27] I think since the 80s, British food got better.

[01:25:30] It's supposed to be better now.

[01:25:30] It is.

[01:25:31] I think from the 80s, something changed.

[01:25:33] Everybody kept boiling everything prior to the 80s.

[01:25:35] Yeah.

[01:25:37] I think my favorite was cheese on toast.

[01:25:39] It was probably the 80s.

[01:25:40] Yeah, exactly.

[01:25:41] Well, that's kind of comfort food.

[01:25:43] Cheese on toast.

[01:25:43] That was the only safe thing to get.

[01:25:45] I just remember being in London and we figured out pretty quickly, it was like, don't eat British

[01:25:52] food.

[01:25:53] Go to the Indian restaurant.

[01:25:54] Go to the whatever ethnic restaurant is on your street where you're staying.

[01:25:59] I do not eat in the pub.

[01:26:01] It's funny you should say that the most popular place to eat out in London or in the UK generally

[01:26:06] is either Nando's, which is a Portuguese chicken place, or Indian places.

[01:26:15] Indian.

[01:26:16] Indian is very good.

[01:26:18] Or Italian.

[01:26:18] Yeah, Italian is big.

[01:26:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:26:22] There was a place too that served sushi.

[01:26:25] Was it Stephen's?

[01:26:28] It was on the corner of like Fell Street.

[01:26:33] Oh, yes.

[01:26:33] John Stevens.

[01:26:34] John Stevens.

[01:26:34] John Stevens.

[01:26:35] They were famous for their, and all I remember was the vegetable sushi.

[01:26:42] It didn't have any fish in it.

[01:26:44] Maybe I just never got them.

[01:26:46] But yeah.

[01:26:47] And we would go in there and get their sushi.

[01:26:49] Yeah.

[01:26:49] Absolutely.

[01:26:50] It's called something else now.

[01:26:51] It's not John Stevens now.

[01:26:53] And I can't recall what it's called now.

[01:26:55] So back it up a little bit.

[01:26:57] Why do you think, I mean, we talk, this usually gets addressed on and off throughout our conversations,

[01:27:02] but the show has retained its relevance.

[01:27:05] Yeah.

[01:27:06] Why do you, 30 years later, why do you think that's the case?

[01:27:09] I think because it speaks to the same human condition, you know, that just keeps perpetuating itself, you know.

[01:27:20] Because, you know, we are here on this planet, this learning planet, and history will, you know, always sort of come around again.

[01:27:33] And so the storylines, they may be of people who lived, you know, a while ago, but they're still relevant.

[01:27:44] You know, the inner city is still the inner city.

[01:27:48] Cops are still cops.

[01:27:50] And, you know, cops are going to always be cops.

[01:27:56] And then you're always going to have victims.

[01:27:58] So those stories will always be told.

[01:28:03] And sadly, they will always be told.

[01:28:11] And I just think that the performances that were given and the writing, everything, all of that stuff, it's just, it transcends time at this point.

[01:28:31] I think, I think you'll always be able to find something in the characters at some point in time that resonates with you on any given day, you know.

[01:28:45] Yeah, because it's too about that.

[01:28:47] I was just thinking as you were saying that, it's also the struggle people have dealing with all the human struggle between all those dynamics.

[01:29:00] It's.

[01:29:00] That's still, it's universal.

[01:29:01] Yeah, it's so, it's so, it's so weird because when you're doing it, you go, well, you know, years from now, nobody will ever see this.

[01:29:15] You think.

[01:29:17] Because, you know.

[01:29:20] They are now.

[01:29:20] Because there was a question at one point whether anybody would actually, but yeah.

[01:29:24] And I did not, and I honestly, after the movie was over, I didn't think that it would ever come back, especially because, I mean, my husband, he was so good at getting these artists to put their music in the show.

[01:29:45] The question about the music.

[01:29:48] And I think that it was so good at the show.

[01:29:48] The question about the music was why it hadn't come back.

[01:29:51] Because there was, there was so much tied up into the, the, the rights and all that stuff.

[01:29:58] So, um, I'm really glad they got that settled.

[01:30:02] Yeah.

[01:30:04] But we had some really good, um, amazing artists who contributed to the, um, the overall feel of the scene.

[01:30:15] You know, their, their music sat in the scene so perfectly that it was able to wrench and bring out emotion from the, the, from the viewers that hit them in a place that, that's, that still hits them.

[01:30:34] You know, in, you know, in that, that gut place.

[01:30:41] And the music really sort of like put the, the, uh, the period on it and said, okay, this is where we're going.

[01:30:50] Yep, exactly.

[01:30:51] And much of that music was retained, but some of it wasn't.

[01:30:55] Really?

[01:30:56] So it's interesting to hear their, their attempts at, well, it wasn't an attempt because they did it, but their, their, uh, what they replaced it with to try to make, to, to retain the same kind of emotional.

[01:31:09] Mm.

[01:31:10] Power as the, all the original music did.

[01:31:12] And, and yeah, kudos to Chris and the music people because all that original stuff was just, um, the, you know, we all taught, we all then talked about how great the music was.

[01:31:23] Remember, were you there?

[01:31:24] Were they still giving out, they'd give out the cassette at the end of the year of all the music that had been used in the episodes or much of it?

[01:31:31] Yeah.

[01:31:31] And I can't remember who, Chris, did, who said, who, who put those together?

[01:31:35] I don't know if Tom put them together.

[01:31:37] I, I, I, I had a bunch of cassettes stolen out of my car, so I don't have those.

[01:31:41] Yeah.

[01:31:41] We should have asked the reunion.

[01:31:43] Yeah, she, I don't know.

[01:31:44] Um, I think it was Tom.

[01:31:45] Yeah, it would be nice if somebody could make some copies.

[01:31:47] Yeah, if anybody still has them.

[01:31:48] On the CDs or something.

[01:31:49] But yeah, they were, they were amazing.

[01:31:52] Yeah.

[01:31:52] So any, any other, any other sort of final thoughts or takeaways from your time in the show, the show, um, you want to mention?

[01:32:02] Oh, there was a, there was the one time that I felt like I brought all of Tony to the show.

[01:32:10] And that was, it wasn't on the show.

[01:32:12] It was Homicide Live.

[01:32:14] I don't know if you guys went to Homicide Live.

[01:32:17] Somebody posted a poster, a poster about that.

[01:32:21] That was at, at Center Stage.

[01:32:24] Right?

[01:32:24] I did, I somehow never saw any of those.

[01:32:27] It was, it was so much fun and it just sort of made it feel like, I mean, it felt like we were in school like that.

[01:32:37] Like we were in high school anyway and it felt like, like the talent show.

[01:32:41] I mean, we just had the reunion now, right?

[01:32:43] And it felt like this was the talent show and people got up and they did poetry and, you know, I was able to sing and, and, you know, it was just like, it was fun.

[01:32:54] And it was fun and we did fun things like that.

[01:32:57] And, and I don't know if people have that sort of camaraderie these days with, um, with the shows that are being done.

[01:33:07] I'm sure that there is some, but, and I hope there is more.

[01:33:11] Um, but, uh, that's what I remember from this, not just the actors.

[01:33:18] I mean, uh, you know, it was just more like the, the support and the production people in the, and all the way down to the cops on the street who did traffic.

[01:33:29] And, you know, I just want to give them their flowers, you know, cause they did a wonderful job and, um, and they deserve it.

[01:33:40] They deserve their flowers.

[01:33:41] And just, if no one else has ever said, thank you, I just want to say thank you.

[01:33:48] Yeah.

[01:33:48] A lot of moving parts on that show.

[01:33:49] You forget about all the little things and all the, all the people that were there making sure our perimeter was clear.

[01:33:56] Yeah.

[01:33:57] There weren't cars, you know, cars driving willy nilly through the set.

[01:34:02] Yeah.

[01:34:03] Although that did happen depending on where we were.

[01:34:05] Sometimes we didn't stop the traffic.

[01:34:08] But that's okay.

[01:34:09] You know, sometimes it was like that and it was like, um, and, but it just, just thank you.

[01:34:16] You know, I'm just grateful that that's, that's been a part of my life and something that I can look back on and go, you know, I did that and I'm proud of it.

[01:34:25] And, um, that's a great part of my life.

[01:34:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:34:30] I hear, I hear that in your voice.

[01:34:32] Um, anything you want to mention, the projects you're working on now or, or coming up or?

[01:34:38] I do books on tape.

[01:34:39] I do that.

[01:34:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:34:41] Talk about anything, any new or, or, or particular ones that you really enjoy doing.

[01:34:46] Because I, I heard you talking about how interesting it was to do all, to, to act out all the voices and including obviously male voices when you're doing, when you're doing a voiceover and how you prepare for that.

[01:34:57] Yeah, I did a, uh, I did a, now I can't remember, no, it's just left my, my head, but I did this one book on this, this, uh, this, this, the biography of this actress.

[01:35:09] Um, and, uh, I actually had to have an Irish, uh, your, your side of the pond, uh, accent.

[01:35:19] I don't know how well I did.

[01:35:21] But, but, I tried, you know, I'll give it that good college try.

[01:35:28] I'll always get in there and try.

[01:35:30] So, um, yeah, um, no, I mean, I'm not, I'm not really, um, I've, for a while after, after, uh, after, like I did Oz and I did a few other things, Heroes.

[01:35:43] And, um, I was, I did a really short thing in Heroes where I was a doctor and I was the doctor who came in when the cheerleader was, was dead.

[01:35:55] And I, she left the table.

[01:35:59] I come back, she's gone.

[01:36:00] So, um, you know, after that, I, uh, I did, um, I did a lot of work on myself.

[01:36:07] You know, I went out to the desert, uh, on many occasions and started to really just sort of work on myself.

[01:36:18] You know, pulling my, my energies and my soul, um, my soul's purpose and all that stuff together and, and, and, and moving sort of more into like a spiritual, um, place of, of being.

[01:36:35] And, and, uh, and I do, I'm a Reiki master and I do, um, and I do Reiki for, uh, for actors to, uh, help actors, uh, like, uh, well, like when, you know, when I was acting and, um, it was hard sometimes to figure out what to do with that extra energy or, or if you have blocks or things that you're, you're trying to do.

[01:37:05] And you just feel like you're being stopped.

[01:37:07] So I, I work with actors to do that.

[01:37:10] I, and, uh, um, and help them with, you know, their, their, their coaching and lines and, you know, characterizations and stuff like that.

[01:37:19] But, um, so that's what I, I kind of want to move into.

[01:37:24] Um, I wouldn't turn down acting, but I really want to help actors.

[01:37:29] Uh, like it's hard for, it's hard for black people.

[01:37:35] Women actresses right now, like, you know, in the business.

[01:37:38] And, um, I mean, I'm, I'm, I feel for them like Taraji P and, and, um, uh, actors who are, are, are having a hard time.

[01:37:48] And so I, I want to, want to be one of those, um, people who are there to support, uh, because I know how it is when you don't have any support and you're sort of just sort of out there by yourself and trying to figure it all out.

[01:38:05] So that's what I, that's, that's what I'm working on now is, is, is, uh, is giving that support to actors.

[01:38:12] Well, this has been absolutely terrific.

[01:38:15] Thank you for spending so much time with us and thank you for, for sharing and being candid and really, really.

[01:38:22] You're welcome.

[01:38:23] Thanks for having me.

[01:38:24] Thanks for having me.

[01:38:25] It's been fun.

[01:38:25] Um, it, it brings up a lot of good memories and, um, and that makes my day.

[01:38:32] Thank you.

[01:38:53] So that was Tony Lewis.

[01:38:55] And I thought that was a really interesting interview.

[01:38:57] And I think one of the key takeaways I found quite interesting is like how she was a fan of the show before she came on the show, very similar to Reed Diamond.

[01:39:06] Um, and I found that super fascinating.

[01:39:09] Is there anything that stood out for you?

[01:39:11] Yeah, I'd, I'd agree with that, that she was conscious, extra conscious of the show because her husband, Chris, and we should mention Chris Tergeson, uh, was the music supervisor and music coordinator, um, on the show for 113 episodes, uh, 94 to 99.

[01:39:27] And so she, before she came on the show, knew about the show, knew about how good it was, and also was familiar with Tom Fontana and what a great showrunner he was and great writer he was.

[01:39:39] Um, way prior to homicide.

[01:39:43] Um, but I do love that, you know, who, this is another eye-opening thing I mentioned in the intro that people were aware of the show and just went in and said, I gotta be on the show.

[01:39:52] She went in and auditioned, maybe not specifically for that role, just, just the audition.

[01:39:57] Yeah.

[01:39:58] Like, what was surprising, actually, was this, this is her first lead role in a show.

[01:40:02] And her first role in a show.

[01:40:04] So, uh, and she handles it with such confidence, you know, immediately off the bat, as you described when you were chatting with her, you know, she has such kind of confidence.

[01:40:12] And, you know, she was thrown in the deep end because she plays off a lot of very interesting, you know, established characters in the show during that first episode.

[01:40:20] So, uh, no, hats off to her.

[01:40:22] It was an amazing debut.

[01:40:23] Yeah, I can't, I can't imagine being in that situation.

[01:40:26] So, you're a greenhorn, you come in to this, has to be intimidating ensemble cast in the show that you're already a huge fan of, admiring how well it's produced and written and acted.

[01:40:43] And then to come in as a character who is a seasoned, cynical, veteran detective, right?

[01:40:51] She doesn't come in, and we mentioned this in the, in the, in the interview, she doesn't come in like Reed comes in.

[01:40:57] He was a seasoned detective, but not a seasoned homicide detective, and also, um, came in green to the homicide unit.

[01:41:06] So, I guess there's a similar path because Reed comes from fire and she came from narcotics.

[01:41:12] But that, I mentioned in the interview, that auspicious entrance from her, um, where she's in the ME's office and Clark bursts in looking for stivers to punch him out, him, figuring it's a man to punch him out.

[01:41:27] Because she's been, she's been investigating the, the same drug crime because she's familiar with Mahoney and the Mahoney gang.

[01:41:36] And, and he, he comes in and says, you know, what, something like, you know, we're stivers, I need to punch him out.

[01:41:41] And she jumps right up in his face and says, take your best shot, pal.

[01:41:46] And how intimidating that must have been for, and also, I forget, this was 30 years ago.

[01:41:53] These are young people, right?

[01:41:55] They're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, many of them were younger than me.

[01:41:58] At the time, I was just turning 40 somewhere in the, during the show and they were younger.

[01:42:03] Most of them, a lot of them were younger than me.

[01:42:05] And, and for her to say how nervous she was.

[01:42:09] And it just did not, it did not register that she was even, either on camera or off camera.

[01:42:18] Um, she was fabulous.

[01:42:20] And I wish, you know, she'd been in more episodes because she was terrific.

[01:42:23] Hmm.

[01:42:25] Yeah.

[01:42:25] I would like to have seen more stivers and even more episodes, maybe even devoted to her.

[01:42:30] Um, I think only it's in season seven where she gets partnered with Michelle, Michael Michelle,

[01:42:35] that they really have an episode that sort of focuses on her.

[01:42:39] Um, which is a shame because I, I, I thought she was such a fantastic character.

[01:42:43] Um, so yeah.

[01:42:45] So hopefully there might still be, uh, was it our joking new, we were saying about there should

[01:42:49] be a spinoff captain stivers or commander stivers, whatever it was.

[01:42:53] Yeah.

[01:42:54] Yes, absolutely.

[01:42:55] We, we have a whole raft of spinoffs that we're ready to have.

[01:42:58] Um, and she also talked to, it is, it was interesting.

[01:43:01] And, and, um, Melissa mentioned this too, you know, these notes they would get from NBC

[01:43:06] about softening this or with the hair or whatever.

[01:43:10] Um, but when she came in, she was a bad ass when she, when she walked into that scene, you know,

[01:43:17] with her leather jacket and her puka shells, um, coming over from narcotics, she had to be a bad

[01:43:23] ass, right?

[01:43:24] At least on TV, you got to be a bad ass if you're a narcotics detective.

[01:43:27] I don't know if they have to be in real life, but you would think you got to be right.

[01:43:32] Um, but as the show progressed, um, through season, I guess she started, she started in season five.

[01:43:40] Yeah.

[01:43:41] Season five.

[01:43:41] Yeah.

[01:43:43] Um, they, they definitely softened her, um, which I personally think is a shame because

[01:43:51] to me, when you think back to that era, so 30 years ago, this is a woman cop that's got to function

[01:44:00] in very heavily, very macho, very entrenched male universe.

[01:44:10] Um, and, and a lot of times the way you do that as a woman in a male universe is to be a bad

[01:44:17] ass, is to be tough as they are or tougher.

[01:44:20] And I wish they had left her like that because they definitely softened her wardrobe and her

[01:44:25] hair and all kinds of things, um, later on.

[01:44:29] And, you know, who knows that may have been because they, they knew that the public wanted

[01:44:33] A, B, C or D, I don't know.

[01:44:35] But yeah, she, she was really impressive to talk to, but like you said, the most impressive

[01:44:40] thing is the impression she made, even though she was new at it.

[01:44:46] Well, obviously not new.

[01:44:47] You mentioned that too, not new at acting, but new at television and network television.

[01:44:53] Yeah.

[01:44:53] And I admired her commitment to reality as well, because she mentioned that she, she was part

[01:44:58] inspired by her niece who was a serving police officer, I believe in Chicago.

[01:45:03] Um, and on top of that, she took the time to go to a firearms range to kind of familiarize

[01:45:08] herself with the Glock pistol, which is what her character used during the show.

[01:45:13] Um, and I think she mentioned that some other actors didn't quite take it to that level,

[01:45:16] but, uh, and then she got it complimented by Catherine Bigelow a few years later for her

[01:45:21] proficiency of a handgun.

[01:45:22] So I got to pay it off.

[01:45:23] So yes.

[01:45:25] Awesome.

[01:45:25] And Catherine Bigelow with no guns, right?

[01:45:28] Yeah.

[01:45:28] Yeah.

[01:45:29] So she, and, and so that was really cool because obviously she, uh, knew a lot about cops because

[01:45:34] she grew up in a family of police officers and things.

[01:45:36] And I think she was saying as well, her, her niece, because she was so small, she would

[01:45:40] like throw herself into fights as her way of dealing with it, which is quite funny.

[01:45:44] And it says a lot about her character.

[01:45:46] You kind of see that she's sort of, um, this coiled spring is the way I would describe

[01:45:50] her character when you first meet her.

[01:45:52] And it's, it's really interesting.

[01:45:54] Absolutely.

[01:45:54] And, and yeah, she mentioned the gun range, gun range, like three blocks, um, from where

[01:46:00] we were from, from the sets.

[01:46:03] And I don't know where that was.

[01:46:04] I know where the gun range is.

[01:46:05] We did shoot at a gun range out in the County once, and I know where that one is, but that's

[01:46:09] interesting.

[01:46:10] I didn't know there was one that close, but also even with that, when she talked about,

[01:46:16] you know, having been at the gun range, having had, you know, the noise canceling headphones

[01:46:21] on while you're shooting.

[01:46:23] Um, when we did the scene, uh, with Luther Mahoney, the Luther Mahoney shooting in that,

[01:46:29] um, you know, in that penthouse condo with the glass walls and the, and the marble floors,

[01:46:35] uh, how much it struck her.

[01:46:38] Like she said, that look of surprise on her face was real because of the, how loud and

[01:46:43] scary it was to be in a room with gunfire.

[01:46:47] Um, and I thought that was a, you know, that's a pretty candid admission to make as an, as

[01:46:52] an actor that that kind of freaked you out a little bit.

[01:46:54] Um, even though she'd been familiar with guns and handling the guns and everything.

[01:46:59] So that just shows you that, you know, at some level we're on the set with that.

[01:47:04] Um, the camera people probably had earplugs in those little foam earplugs, um, that don't

[01:47:12] do a whole lot.

[01:47:13] Um, but yeah, it can get, it can get pretty, pretty raw when you're working in a, in especially

[01:47:19] in a small room, a hard room like that with gunfire.

[01:47:23] I bet, I bet it's also the shockwave too.

[01:47:25] Cause that's the other thing with a loud bang, you get a kind of shockwave that goes with

[01:47:29] it.

[01:47:29] And, uh, yeah, it's not fun when guns go off.

[01:47:32] I've been on a few gun ranges, even with the big headphones, you still feel it, especially

[01:47:36] when other people are shooting.

[01:47:37] Um, I was in Arizona when somebody was using an AK 47 in my presence and you could feel

[01:47:42] that.

[01:47:43] So, uh, yeah.

[01:47:46] Yeah, you can feel it.

[01:47:48] I don't know if I, I've told the, have I told that story on air about being on Scarface

[01:47:52] and the guys on the crew wanted to shoot off with, they were using, they were using Ingram,

[01:47:57] um, which is funny.

[01:47:58] Yeah.

[01:47:59] Ingram machine guns.

[01:48:00] And the prop guy would come out and my camera truck was parked in the alley between a bunch

[01:48:05] of sound stages.

[01:48:07] And they would come out into the alley.

[01:48:09] So the guys on the crew could shoot off the machine gun and I'd be in the truck and nowhere

[01:48:12] to go in the truck, in the dark room.

[01:48:15] And I'd hear, I'd hear the prop, the prop master yell, fire in the hole.

[01:48:20] And then there's just like, just like massive amount of machine gun fire would go off right

[01:48:24] next to me in the truck.

[01:48:27] It was, uh, everybody was pretty jumpy by the end of that.

[01:48:31] For sure.

[01:48:34] But yeah, I also thought it was interesting.

[01:48:36] Her recognition of not just how good the writing was, but that, but how the writers merged and

[01:48:43] wove together multiple storylines and how you didn't really know it as you're watching

[01:48:48] it, but somewhere in the middle, by the end of the show, you realize those three storylines

[01:48:52] or four storylines had a similar message or theme, um, that that's driven home sometimes,

[01:49:00] not always, but driven home sometimes by one of those, um, montages with music.

[01:49:06] And then the music bumps it, you know, to another emotional level.

[01:49:10] Um, which was one of the things she appreciated about the show was how they did that.

[01:49:16] Yeah.

[01:49:16] Yeah.

[01:49:17] Yeah.

[01:49:17] No, very well done that.

[01:49:18] Very well done.

[01:49:19] And how much she talked about it really feeling like a family.

[01:49:23] And that was a very poignant story.

[01:49:26] Uh, when she talked about the last day going up onto the set with Tom and him pulling down,

[01:49:33] um, Stivers's, uh, uh, awards and recognitions and certificates and giving them to her.

[01:49:40] Yeah.

[01:49:41] Yeah.

[01:49:42] It'd be interesting to hear how many people we should ask people that.

[01:49:45] That's a, that'd be a good bumper question to ask people at the end in addition to the

[01:49:49] food question.

[01:49:49] Did you take anything with you?

[01:49:51] Might have to disguise voices.

[01:49:52] Do any souvenirs.

[01:49:53] Might have to disguise voices.

[01:49:55] Right.

[01:49:55] We'll pretend we didn't hear it, but did you take any souvenirs when you left?

[01:50:00] Um, who would, wouldn't you love to have one of those, uh, detective, um, one of the

[01:50:05] detective manuals.

[01:50:07] Oh, yeah.

[01:50:07] That, um, who was, who were, oh, it was, um, Nick.

[01:50:11] Nick.

[01:50:12] Yeah.

[01:50:12] Nick said, Gary Daddario handed him the detective, not, uh, detective manual that he said that

[01:50:18] the images are still emblazoned in his brain.

[01:50:22] Um, wow.

[01:50:23] But it must've been cool too for her, um, you know, for Chris, her husband, Chris to

[01:50:27] be working on the show.

[01:50:28] So, so I think maybe, you know, even more of a close connection with the show.

[01:50:33] And a brother-in-law as well as it Lee played the police officer who got shot, um, in season

[01:50:39] one, didn't he?

[01:50:40] And he was blinded as Lee, Lee Turgerson was that actor.

[01:50:44] So, uh, no real big homicide connections there.

[01:50:47] Yeah.

[01:50:47] And, and, and, and, you know, in general, like many people have said, but it felt maybe

[01:50:51] even, even more emotional with her, um, how much she loved being on the show and how much

[01:50:57] that experience meant to her and how much, um, and how deeply emotionally attached she

[01:51:02] still feels to the show and to the creators and to Tom, you know, and people that made it

[01:51:08] possible.

[01:51:09] I thought that was great.

[01:51:09] It was great that she would, that she, you know, talked to us about that and that she

[01:51:13] wanted to support everybody, even the traffic cops, like the Baltimore traffic cops that

[01:51:17] were helping us deal with the traffic and the pedestrian traffic and, you know, which

[01:51:21] also the PAs were doing, but, but, but how many peripheral people, even outside the crew

[01:51:28] that helped us out?

[01:51:30] Yeah.

[01:51:31] Yeah.

[01:51:31] No, it sounds like homicide was a very formative experience for her.

[01:51:34] So, yeah.

[01:51:34] Excellent.

[01:51:35] Well, I think, I think that about covers everything unless there's anything else you want to say,

[01:51:38] but I, I, I really enjoyed that interview and, you know, thank you again, Tony, for her

[01:51:43] time on the show.

[01:51:44] It was really great just to chat for those sort of two hours.

[01:51:46] It was really very pleasant.

[01:51:48] Yeah.

[01:51:48] Thanks, Tony.

[01:51:49] And, and she, and she mentioned that she's now doing work supporting actors.

[01:51:53] So I thought that was also really telling about her and her personality that she, that

[01:51:58] she went there, that she wants, that she wants to help people, um, which I think is

[01:52:02] the kind of person she is.

[01:52:03] Yeah.

[01:52:04] Yeah.

[01:52:04] Yes, indeed.

[01:52:05] Indeed.

[01:52:05] Thanks, Tony.

[01:52:06] Thank you, Tony.

[01:52:07] And thank you everybody out there for listening.

[01:52:09] I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as we did and, um, we will catch you on the

[01:52:14] next one.

[01:52:15] Thank you very much.

[01:52:16] Bye-bye.