S3 Ep1: Jon Seda - Det. Paul Falsone

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide: Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award winning television show, Homicide: Life On The Street. With myself, Chris Carr and Susan Ingram. On today's podcast, we're joined by Jon Seda, who played Detective Falsone.

[00:01:04] Well, hello everybody and welcome back. This is the beginning of season three. And today we have Jon Seda and it was really enjoyable interview with him. But before we talk about that, Susan, how are you? Season three. Wow. When you just said that, I was like, oh, right. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Not Homicide season three. Our season three. I forgot. Right. Because yeah, March was our anniversary of the end of the fourth. It was.

[00:01:32] At the end of the second. Golly. Wow. Yeah. So beginning of three and really, really, really, I'm going to overuse a word. We talked about that earlier. A delightful episode with Jon Seda. Yes.

[00:01:45] Who came into the show at the end of season five and was on six and seven. So he just has a lot of great, just, it's a great, it's a really fun interview. And we did want to say spoiler alert to anyone who's doing a watch along or just starting to catch up with the show on, you know, watching it on TV now again, that there's just lots of spoilers in this episode.

[00:02:13] From sort of the end of season five through to seven and the movie. So yeah. So you've been warned. You have been warned. Right. So if you want to watch it pristinely, don't listen. I should tell people not listen to this episode. Yeah. Wait till you've seen season six and seven. Well, yeah, six, seven, and the movie. Once you've watched those, then you can listen to this episode. Because unfortunately we have some spoilers and we don't say spoiler alert until after we do the spoilers. Yeah. It's a classic moment.

[00:02:43] But yeah. Yeah. And some fun behind the scenes anecdotes as well in this one. Yeah. He was a lot of, he was terrific. And, and, and big thanks to him for spending as much time as he did. I know he's a busy, a busy actor. Yes. Very kind of him. We did also want to give a shout out to the wardrobe department. They will be our, our next episode in June. Yeah. We interviewed four women from the wardrobe department. That's also a terrific interview, but a little bit more complex because we had so many guests.

[00:03:11] And so that's taking a little bit more to work on, but we wanted to give a shout out to them. They were absolutely terrific. And I want everybody to look forward to listening, listening to that in June. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of behind the scenes and interesting insights as well. So no, some great stuff. And then we've also got coming up for everybody in the Baltimore area, because we're going to have a crappy Memorial Day weekend. It's going to go from 96 degrees today to 63 degrees tomorrow.

[00:03:39] And then the 60s and rainy over the weekend, charge television, charge TV, which you can see locally in broadcast and also streaming. And also on your computer who started running homicide a couple months ago is doing a charge TV, charge con marathon of homicide episodes.

[00:04:07] And it will be over Saturday and Sunday evening. And it's Tom Fontana's top 10 homicide episodes with clips and comments from Tom about his favorite episodes. Yeah. And at 7 p.m. Eastern, it starts. So there's three men, Nadina, which I think is going to be the top line. They've got colors, every mother's son, a doll's eyes, Chris Sessi, which is one of my favorites.

[00:04:33] You've got Subway, a bop gun for God and Country, which is a big one for Andre Brower there and hate crimes. And so then the final episode they're showing is a case of do or die. Now I've read them out, not necessarily in the order they're being transmitted, but I've read them out in the order on the website there. But a case of do or die is also on that list as well, which is a more fun one. They're going to show five on Saturday evening and five on Sunday evening.

[00:05:00] Go to watchcharge.com. And if you go to watch live, you can watch the episodes as they're transmitting live on the website. So if you go to their website, you can find out where it's available, either over the air broadcast or on one of your streaming services, or you can watch it on from their website, streaming from their website. And big props to, I'm going to say it again, big props to Charge and Tubi, who do a lot on their websites to promote the show.

[00:05:30] And let's get a shout out to Peacock, who should be promoting it more than they all. Peacock do better. But anyway, Peacock. I mean, that's a network they were on. They should be pushing a little more. But in any case, kudos to Tubi in Charge for doing that. And I'm really looking forward to it. I really want to hear some of the anecdotes, the little clips that they're going to have from Tom, which really should be fun.

[00:05:58] And here in Baltimore, if you, like me, have become an antenna person, you can watch it on Channel 45.4. And it's also on streaming services. It's on, well, it's on cable. It's on Xfinity. It's on RCN. It's on Verizon, Dish. Also YouTube and Sling TV. So many places to try to pick it up. So we encourage everybody.

[00:06:21] Because to hear comments from Tom, you know, from the mouth of the creator, one of the creators really should be a lot of fun in context with which episodes you're watching, which I think will be really cool. So something good to do on a rainy Memorial Day weekend, Baltimoreans. Definitely.

[00:06:41] On May the 28th to the 31st, you've also got the Austin, Texas TV Festival, where Tom Fontana, David Simon, and Carl Secor will be giving a talk about Three Men and Adina. And there are members of the Waterfront Facebook group who will be organizing a meetup at the Austin Television Festival. So if you go to the Waterfront on Facebook, you'll see details about that there. I'll be with you in spirit. Yes.

[00:07:08] Sadly, unless somebody stops up a play ticket and accommodation for us to go to Austin. And I'm not against that. My passport, I have a valid visa to come to America. We will see you there. But if that doesn't happen, then we'll be with you in spirit. Or at least I will be. As much as I've always wanted to go to Austin because of the barbecue, et cetera. But yeah, Hummerside and barbecue sounds like a good combination. So anyway, guys, the Austin TV Festival, have a wonderful time. And I hope you have, if you're into it, lots of barbecue. That's right. Famous Texas barbecue.

[00:07:39] And no murders. Austin, great town. I've never been there, but I hear it's a great town. I always think I've been there, but I've been to San Antonio, but not Austin. Right. Well, let's get to it. So this is our interview with Jon Seda. I hope you enjoy it. We had a lot of fun with this one. And obviously, again, just a reminder, there are spoilers. Lots of spoilers and enjoy. It is fun. It's an enjoyable episode.

[00:08:19] Jon Seda, welcome to the podcast. It's wonderful to have you on. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, guys. Good. Great to see you. Like, really, really great to see you. It is such a long time. Weirdly long time. I don't want to think about how long it's been. I know. It's scary. And me either, because I'm way older than you. So let's not think about that. But so let's just jump right into the questions. I'm going to go through some of your incredibly impressive background, because you started right off in the movie.

[00:08:49] Oh, please, no. Don't. Please. You started right off in the movies. You know, you have an impressive film and TV background. But the first thing you did was the, I'm going to say gladiator, and everybody's going to go, really? It's like the boxing gladiator. And we'll get into your boxing background a little bit. I was going to say, it's the gladiator that nobody saw, not the one that everyone saw. But so you jumped in even before that was a feature film prior to that. And then Carlito's Way, one of my favorite films.

[00:09:19] And then in TV, NYPD Blue, 12 Monkeys, which was shot close by here. Primal Fear, which was with Andre, which we'd probably ask you about later. Selina, Law and Order, Homicide, Oz, Kevin Hill, The Pacific. I got to tell you, The Pacific. Oh, my God. I think The Pacific is one of the best, if not the best, reflections of what the war in the Pacific was like.

[00:09:45] Because I think people always, always focus on the Western European theater in World War II. And that series was just absolutely brilliant. And you were brilliant in it. So I would tell everybody to see all these. But The Pacific, really, just an amazing piece of filmmaking. And you did Treme, and Chicago, Justice, Fire, and PD, which you're known for being in all three. And La Brea. And I haven't had a chance to see Into the Deep, which is your recent shark film. I love shark films.

[00:10:14] So, but just an amazing, that's just a couple highlights, people, from his huge resume. So we always tell everybody, go to people's IMDb pages, look at their stuff and watch their stuff. Because the cast on this show and the crew and everybody just have an amazing career. So kudos to you for that. Thank you. Yeah. So I understand boxing was first.

[00:10:39] So tell us how you got the transition from boxing to acting. And then, yeah, and how did that kick off? Oh, that's, it's interesting. I always say, my mom, my mom knew it. For some reason, when I was a kid, she always said, you belong on TV. You belong in films. You entertain people. You're sick. Because I was always the entertainer. I'm one of six.

[00:11:07] And, you know, I guess I was always the one to bring the fun, I guess. But, you know, she said that, obviously not known for sure. But what happened was, long story short, my sister was trying to become a singer. And so she, my mom had an idea for her to go to an acting school in New York so she can get, just get familiar with being on stage, you know, or, you know, just performance kind of thing. Right.

[00:11:36] So, but she was young and I think my mom really just wanted me to go out there and watch her and, you know, watch over her in New York. So she was like, you should, you should start taking these acting classes. Because at the time I was boxing. I was an amateur boxer and I was, had, had hopes of becoming a professional boxer and maybe a champion one day. Maybe even make the 92 Olympics, which, which was a goal. Right. It's a very successful boxer. You can, you can toot your own horn on that.

[00:12:04] Well, I mean, I lost, I lost, I lost in the finals of the New Jersey Golden Gloves. So, you know, that's, that's the one I counted. But had I won, I might not be here right now doing this interview with you because it would have changed the whole course of my, my career. But so, yeah, so I wanted to be a boxer. My mom's like, you should have something to fall back on just in case boxing doesn't work out. Why don't you try to acting? Go to school. Two, two things that are like boxing and acting that you would never think are like things

[00:12:33] that are going to pan out. And you wouldn't pick acting as the secure one either. Right, exactly. Here's a, here's, here's a real reliable career for you, John. Yeah. Try acting. So I, try acting. Something to fall back on. So, so I, you know, I went to, I went to the school, which is Wiest Barron Acting School in New York and Rita Litton was the teacher. She might still be doing it. Now she's probably doing it online or something, but she's amazing.

[00:13:00] She's really the one that I could say discovered me if you, if you want to say, because she saw something in me that, that she thought I had something really natural. And, and she was like, you know, maybe you should focus on this more. You, you know, she had me try out for a scholarship, but it was a, some kind of thing where you submit something, a monologue. And if you win, you get a scholarship to the school. I was like, sure. You know, and I just kind of did what she told me.

[00:13:28] She, you know, make just, I just had something in me that she gave me something. I tried to make it real as real as, as I could. And so I won the scholarship and, you know, just kept going to the school for a bit, but I, you know, I really wanted to box and I was still boxing on and off, you know. And then through that school, I met a manager who was my first manager. Her name was Shannon Buteau. And it's a much longer story.

[00:13:57] I regret that we didn't, we're not still together today, but that's a whole deeper thing. But I met my first manager there and she got me an audition. It was a cat, a cattle call in New York for, for some movie. I was glad to hear. And she got me a cattle call for that audition, which is, as you know, cattle call meaning that the line was around a block. Everybody. Everybody's on it.

[00:14:23] You know, younger, older, women, girls, this, man, boys, that, whatever, black hair, blue hair, whatever. You know, everybody's on this line to try to get a part in this film. And I remember I was, I was online and I was just like, I just wanted to go watch football. I didn't even want to be online. I wanted to go home and watch football. But I stayed online. It took like six hours or something like that. Finally got in. They had me read, excuse me, had me read something. I ended up getting a co-starring role in the film and the movie was Gladiator.

[00:14:51] And at the time, John Ableton was the director. So the very first director I ever stood in front of and did something for was actually John Ableton, who directed Rocky, which is such a big influence for me. I had no idea it was John Ableton. You know, sitting in front of me until later on. He ended up switching to go do another film and Rowdy Harrington ended up being the director on Gladiator.

[00:15:20] So that was, you know, I did the film. I was in Chicago for a few months of filming. Made money I never saw before in my life. All of a sudden, I'm working with people like Brian Dennehy, Robert Loja, Ozzie Davis, you know, Cuba Gooding. And I was, man, what am I doing here? But did the role. And after I finished, I went, I thought, okay, that was a lucky deal. Let's go right back to boxing. I started boxing again.

[00:15:49] But because I did that film, I had agents actually calling me wanting to represent me. So I signed with an agent and, you know, eventually I had to make the decision. Do I try to, because you can't do both. If you're focusing on boxing, you have to be focused. You know, because the guy you're going to fight in that ring, he's training 100% every day to beat you. And if you're, you know, you're in it, but you're not really in it, you're going to be

[00:16:19] at a loss. So I had to make a decision. Do I go with something that really wasn't paying for food on the table? You know, or do I try at least acting, which actually I made some money from it. Maybe I, maybe I could make something out of this. And so I made the decision and I'm still here. I'm still doing it. Yeah. And I would think boxing and acting, you might be in, somebody might be interested in you for a part and then you go do about and you come back and you look a little different. That's, that's true too. That's a good idea.

[00:16:49] My nose is over here now, right? You can't wait. What happened to your eye? Your eyes hanging out of you. Your ears are kind of funny. So then what was the, what was the link? What was the link to homicide? We have talked to a couple of the cast members who said that they really like Reed and, and Tony Lewis, who sought the show out, who were familiar with the show and loved it. And we're like, oh my God, I'd love to be on that show. So, and then other people who just came in for a cold reading or were just called and said, we'd like you to play this part. So how, what was that link? Well, it's funny.

[00:17:18] I mean, I think I, it's hard to remember, but I think, I think I knew about homicide, but I didn't really know much about it. I, I worked on a project called Oz for HBO. And I go way back to the beginning of Oz when it was, it was presented to me. I was, I was in Texas working on the film Selena. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:47] And at the time my agent called me and said, Hey, uh, Darnell Martin, who directed me on a film called, I like it like that has this, this thing called Oz. And she wants to know if you, if you'd be interested in doing it. And I had said after I worked with her on, I like it like that. Cause she was amazing. She was just, she was incredible. She brought me to levels that I never knew I could get to.

[00:18:14] And I always said that no matter what she does, I will work with her. If she's doing something, I don't care if it's just one scene or whatever, I will always say yes to working with her. So once, once I was told that she had this project called Oz, I didn't even know what it was. I didn't know what it was about. I just said, yes, I'll do it. I said, I'll do it. The only problem is I'm in Texas right now filming this movie Selena, which I have, I've just, I just dove into becoming this guy.

[00:18:44] And then Oz is completely different. It's this Italian hit man and everybody's scared of in prison. I'm playing this sweet, nice guy and plays a guitar in Texas. But Darnell was like, just trust me. We can do it. So it was for a treatment to try to sell Oz to HBO. Oh, wow. Yeah. Cause Tom was overlapping with Homicide and Oz when he started Oz. Right. So Tom, you know. Oh, a treatment. Wow. Yeah. And Tom was doing it.

[00:19:13] So I fell into something just so special and amazing just by saying yes. And then, so I was flying from Texas to Baltimore to film the treatment and going back and forth, which is why my hair was much longer when I was doing, when he first seen me on Homicide because I was just coming off of Selena where, you know, my hair was long. So she just said, trust me, we'll do it.

[00:19:41] So, you know, so I did Oz and make sure I get this right. So the treatment, HBO wanted a beginning and an end for the treatment. And in the treatment, the character I portrayed, Dino, he dies. Right. But at the time I was signing on as a regular. So I was preparing to look for a place in New York.

[00:20:11] Like the other castmate who got, I think, replaced was Jennifer Gray. So she was playing the nurse and her and I were talking in the makeup trailer, how we're going to move to New York and this and that, blah, blah, blah for Oz. And they said, don't worry that your death, your death scene in the treatment is just for the treatment. You know, it's not going to be in a first episode. I'm going to be a regular on a show.

[00:20:38] But I think, I might be wrong on this, but Tom probably knows better. I think they loved the whole idea of anyone can die in prison. And even though Dino was the lead of that first episode, you know, how he ends up meeting his fate, kind of set the tone for Oz. Because, like, anybody can, no matter how tough you are, no matter how strong you are, whatever,

[00:21:07] anyone can go in the prison. So I was, okay, sure, that's great. I said, but now I'm out of a job. And Tom said- Thanks, Darnell. Right. So Tom said, don't worry. He said, I want to bring you on to my other show, Homicide. So, you know, he offered me the role of foul zone on the homicide. And I didn't really know much about the TV show Homicide. So he told me what it was.

[00:21:34] He said, you're going to come in as, we'll bring you in as an auto, I think it was auto theft, undercover guy, you know. So I said, okay, cool. I said, let's do it, you know. And of course, I mean, such an incredible ensemble cast on Homicide. I was like, oh my gosh. And I think at the time they had already done, I think I came in the end of the fifth season, I think. Yeah, last two episodes. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:03] Right at the end of the fifth season, which was a huge episode. Yeah. A double episode. I was just like, wow. So how to prepare for this role? I said, I did as much research as I could. But fortunately, I have a good friend who's retired now, but he was a homicide detective in New Jersey, in my hometown, in Clifton.

[00:22:31] And he brought me into the precinct, and I'd go there almost every day and just hang out with him to kind of get the lingo, the kind of banter that these guys had with each other. We'd go through case files. He'd show me files and stuff. I couldn't believe the kind of crime, actually, that was there in Clifton, that they didn't report. You know, and I was like, well, how come we don't know about this on the news? He said, they don't want you to know about this.

[00:22:58] So, you know, so I just worked with him hand in hand and kind of emulated him in the character of Falzone, because Joe's just, his name's Detective Joe Genchi, Joseph Genchi. Just a great man. And through the years, he's been my go-to guy. Even when I was doing the PD shows, Chicago PD, I'd still go to Joe. But yeah, so he was my guy. Big homicide fan.

[00:23:28] It's just he was a homicide detective himself, and he really knew the show. Oh, he did? Oh, cool. Wow, what a great contact for you to have prior to coming on. Wow. So a lot of what you see in Falzone was Joe, because to this day, Joe, he's got his sunglasses, he looks really cool, he's got his hair nice and neat, he's, you know, he's very just, you know, but the thing about him is he's tough, he's genuine, and he cares about doing the right thing, and he's by the book.

[00:23:58] You know, he's by the book. But he's a guy that's loyal. You can trust him. So I took all that and kind of put that into Falzone. And that really was your character. Your character was very complex, but it always came back to that, his humanity. You know, he had to be tough. He had to be tough against his other police officers, which is always incredibly hard for police officers to do. But the humanity, and I think also, you know, the fact that you were a family man, even though

[00:24:26] you were divorced and had a child, really figured in quite a number of episodes where you interacted with children or young people that really, really softened your character. So it really was a nice, complex character. But I love the way you came into the show. And I love this background that this is, you know, you're emulating your friend who was a cop because your entrance. And it made me think of, Chris and I were talking about this earlier, Tony Lewis, when she came

[00:24:55] into the show, it had to be a little intimidating to come into this ensemble cast that's already up and running. It's not like, oh, this is the first episode of the first season of the beginning of the show. This is the damn right smack in the middle of all this, like, just shit that's flying basically on the show. And you come in. When she came in, her first scene was this really, really harsh confrontation with Clark.

[00:25:22] Now you come in and you have, in the first episode, two really in-your-face confrontations. One with Melissa Leo and one with Andre, which had to be incredibly intimidating. And then you get into it physically with Peter Garrity, with Peter Garrity in G's office. So while I'm watching it, I'm thinking, did you also bring, you bring some of your boxing

[00:25:56] confidence in those confrontations? So can you talk a little bit about having to not just jump in? And I was saying to Chris earlier, in the first 60 seconds, you walk in and Melissa's at her desk. She's pissed off about what's going on because Beau has been found killed. She doesn't believe he killed himself. And she's just really anxious, trying to open this aspirin bottle. And you come over and you say, let me get that. And you open it with your teeth.

[00:26:22] And so there you are with your black leather jacket and your earrings and your hair. And you're like super sexy. And you sit on the edge of her desk. And you open the aspirin bottle with your teeth. And it almost like projected, it really very quickly projected who Paul Falzone was, like immediately just in that little interaction. But this is, I'm talking too much.

[00:26:47] But so could you talk about jumping in, jumping into that ensemble cast and also into very highly emotional, confrontational scenes with these people? Yeah. My gosh. That's right. And I think my very first scene was with Melissa Leo. I think that was my very first scene. Yes. And I think the cap thing, I'm not sure. I might have ad-libbed that.

[00:27:16] I don't remember if that was scripted. Yeah. I wanted to ask if you remember if that was in the script or not. I could go look it up if I had that script. I might have done it once. And then they were like, you know what? Just keep doing that. Keep doing that. Keep doing that. Because it annoys Melissa. So keep doing it. Exactly. Exactly. But yeah. So, you know, going into it, honestly, I don't remember thinking so much about, my gosh,

[00:27:44] this big ensemble cast and, you know, how tight of a team they are and I'm coming in. And, you know, I don't think I thought of it like that. I looked at it like, especially after talking to my friend Joe Genchi, you know, he said this happens all the time. People are coming in new all the time. And, you know, you'll be with the same group for so long. And then, boom, there's someone new there, you know.

[00:28:12] And you just, you know, there's banter and stuff, but you just, you exist. And you're all there for the same reason. You're there, you know, different skill sets or, you know, but it's all coming together to do the job. So I looked at it like, you know, this is who this guy is. This is who Falzone is. I had to know who he was first before I joined this group.

[00:28:39] So coming up with his whole background and, you know, him being divorced and having a child and him being auto theft, you know, I looked at him as like he was a leader in auto theft. He was a leader in that department. So this is another leader moving into a new group. So he's not someone who's just, you know, just out of school or something, you know. Right. You weren't a newbie like Kyle when he walks in with his box.

[00:29:09] Like you're not that newbie. Right. True. I hadn't thought of it that way. He's coming in. He's a strong alpha male himself, you know, and has his own things. And then with the whole, you know, boxing experience that I had with boxing from training, I've taken that into every job that I do. Every script I looked at, I look at is like the ring, is my ring. And I have to train to perform in that ring.

[00:29:39] You know, so I look at it like that. Those are my opponents. There are people I have to work with, but I have to be believable. I have to, you know, to win this fight, I have to be believable. So, yeah, I come in and I looked at it like, let me challenge them right from the start. Yes, exactly. Like there was no backing down. Yes, let me challenge them. Paul Falzone was like no backing down with those guys.

[00:30:07] Now deep down inside was there a bit of like, oh my gosh, I can't believe this is, man, the outfit Cotto, you know what I mean? Richard Belzer, you know what I mean? You know, yeah, of course, but you have to suppress all that and just go in and, and, and so I came in, that's kind of how I came in with, and, and wanted to establish. I wanted to establish, this is who Falzone is. You know, you're going to love him, you're going to hate him. You're going to like him or you're not going to like him.

[00:30:37] But he's going to be honest. He's going to be who he is. And he's going to be upfront from the beginning. You're going to know who he is. You're going to know everything about him. He might be the loudest one in the room, but he's also going to be the guy at the end of the day, you're going to want on your side. Like he's going to be that, that kind of guy. And Andre, Andre Brower. Oh my gosh. Hey, rest in peace. And Yafit too. I mean, there's been quite a few losses that they're on homicide, but Andre. And you had worked with Andre on Primal Fear, right?

[00:31:05] I had the fortune of working with him on Primal Fear. I made him run his butt off. He had to chase me across a bridge in Chicago, him and Richard Gere. And I remember I was like, speaking of gears, I was in like maybe second gear. I still had two or three more gears to go. And these guys could keep up with me. And I can't remember the director's name, but he was saying, I said, hey, I'm not running fast. He said, you got to slow down so they can catch up.

[00:31:35] I said, I'm not running fast. He said, you know what? Keep running fast. Make them try to catch you. Make them work for it, right? I mean, Andre's breathing heavy. So when Andre finally grabs me in Primal Fear, he was happy to grab me and stop me. But he's just such an amazing talent. My gosh. I mean, he should have been nominated for what was the glory. It was glory that he was in years ago. Oh God. What a beautiful film. Yeah.

[00:32:04] It was, you know, to be able to see him and work. So I had, at least I had with him, I kind of had a little, you know, I was familiar with a little bit from Primal Fear. And Reed Diamond, just, man, he's just so solid. He's solid. I mean, he had that, Kellerman, right? That was his name? Kellerman? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. You guys were at Loggerheads the whole of season six. It was brilliant. Yeah.

[00:32:29] He was a bit intimidating, I got to say, because believe it or not, out of everybody, he had, because he had, I mean, he just, he had Kellerman, like, locked. I mean, he was strong, man. He was so strong, which made it great to do the scenes from Falzone's perspective, because it was a challenge he, you know, he was willing to take on.

[00:32:59] But it was, you know, Reed is just such a good, he's so good, man. I remember sometimes we were doing the scenes, I was like, my gosh, does he like not like me at all, like me? Or is he just doing this for Falzone, you know? Of course, he was cool when, you know, when we were filming. But yeah, he was just so strong. And the whole cast is just absolutely incredible. I mean, Tony Lewis, Stivers, she was great. I love working with her.

[00:33:29] Yeah. When we'd partner up. Yeah. It was just, she was just like, she was so tough in her own right, you know? And she brought, she brought so much to Stivers. And she told us, didn't she, Chris? That was her first film. Yeah. That was her first film, I think. First shot? And she had a physical, yes. She had a physical altercation with Reed that was just in whatever episode. Oh, yeah, yeah. Kellerman P.I. Part 2. Yeah, yeah. Kellerman Part 2. I think I remember, didn't she?

[00:33:59] She got like bruises or something. On the steps of the courthouse. I think she got bruises on her arm or something. They were going at it. Yeah, out of the courthouse, yeah. And she held her own in that. I mean, she was like a tiger getting ready to pounce on him. I mean, yeah, really tough. What a great, like you said. Yeah, she was great. Just crazy good. So incredible. And she used to apparently practice with her gun at the gun range or something to get familiar with it as well. So it's like, wow, she was that dedicated.

[00:34:25] Well, she pulled it off, man, because I just, you know, when I was working with her from a character's perspective of being a cop, she was just like, you felt like she had your back, she had your side, she had your front, she had everything. I mean, she was just like, you know, somebody you can trust. And then what I loved about her was she was like very cut and dry too. She was about doing what's right no matter what, you know, had to be done.

[00:34:53] And, you know, and she was just, I tell you, she was, I thought it was a good combination of foul zone and her. Yeah. And so conflicted with the whole, you know, you're having to look into whether the Kellerman shooting of Luther Mahoney was a good shooting or not. And that Lewis and Terry, their characters are trying to back him up because he's another cop, but they just know it's wrong. That was just really, it was so complex.

[00:35:20] But I have a real specific little question, one of the, one of the episode, the first episode. So, so it starts out with, with you coming in and you telling them, look, I was working, you know, Bo Felton is part of this auto theft ring that you're looking into, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Pambleton and I think, and I, and I think Melissa, Melissa and Andre have to go, they go down to auto theft to you. They, you've been in this squad room, but then they come down to talk to you.

[00:35:49] And asking you some questions about looking into something. And, and you're, it's a very confrontational with Andre. And when you're done, you dismiss them, you turn away from them and you go like this. Oh my gosh, that's right. I was like, wow. And, and I, and I just thought, wow, that's just, it's really interesting watching actors when there's like one little bit of business that like really defines your character. But also that is you marking your territory with them.

[00:36:19] Like, don't fuck with me. This, you're at, now you're in my house. You're down in auto theft. You're in my house now. But that was just, you just go like that. Oh my gosh. And to somebody to do that to Andre, it was like, wow. Do you remember that? Or if that might've been an affectation of your friend or, you know, anything? Now, now that you're saying that I'm, I'm, I'm recalling, I'm recalling it a bit. And I, you know, again, I don't remember if it was scripted.

[00:36:48] It might not have been, which was, which was one of the great things I loved about Homicide was they were very loose and, and allowing the actors to kind of do things that might come organically to them in the scene. You know, they're, you know, whether, whether they were keep it or not or, or, or change it, that's, that's a different story. But there, it was very, you weren't like, oh, I have to stick to the line, say it exactly like this. I have to move here and say it here and move here. It wasn't like that at all.

[00:37:18] It was very, very loose. And you can play with just doing things organically. And so that, that, that might've been a moment that fell into, like you said, it was, it was Falzone marking his territory. And if anything, that was his territory. That was, you came to his nest, you know? So no one barks at you on, in, in your, your hometown, in your place, you know, that's you, you don't do that there, you know? So it was, it was part of that.

[00:37:48] And, you know, and, and the, the fun part about playing that character was he can, he can go extreme and do something that would really piss someone off because it would work. Because, you know, if, if it got, if it got Andre or Melissa upset, who are great in their characters, then it's just going to bring something out in them that's different.

[00:38:15] So it was just nice, nice thing. I remember, I, I do remember it, it happening a few times and then they would, they would punch back, you know, they'd punch back in there, whether it was in their words or, or just in their look. So it was, yeah, it was, it was fun. But I, I do, I do remember, I forgot about that, but I do remember a little bit of it. Yeah. For people listening, because I forget people don't see us, what he did, he did, what John

[00:38:42] did was turn his back, wholly turn his back on him and go back to his desk. And then with his hand, Jester's shooing them out of his office. Oh my gosh. Like dismissing them. Just for people who were listening that couldn't, couldn't see me, but just really, it's a perfect ending to that scene. Really good stuff. Had you been to Baltimore before, or was that your sort of first time in Baltimore or what were your impressions of the city? You know, I, I might've filmed something there before.

[00:39:12] I don't remember. It's funny. I, I, now I go through, I'll go through films and stuff and I'm like, wait a minute. I did film in that place or I did film there. I completely forget, you know, like Chicago, I completely forgot how, how much I had filmed here. So I'm not sure if I, I filmed there before, but I didn't know much about Baltimore. That was really working on homicide was really my first time being there for, you know, longevity. It was incredible.

[00:39:39] I mean, you know, like, I feel like, I feel like homicide inside, inside that, you know, that unit, that precinct, you know, that was a heart of the show. I mean, of course you, they'd go out and, you know, but inside with the phones and just the banter and, and, and the desk, you know, and looking at each other across, you know, from one desk to the other desk, you know, and going into the off the Cotto's office, you

[00:40:08] know, that, that was really like the heart. But the, but the biggest part of the show was actually Baltimore when we, when we would actually film outside in Baltimore and you'd see, you know, I mean, the set Baltimore was, it was the set, you know, you'd see the, uh, the cobblestone road. You know, I, I think it was, was it Thames street? Maybe it was, I don't know if it was Thames. Yeah. Was it, was it Thames? Yeah. I can't believe I remember it. So, yeah.

[00:40:35] So, you know, just, and, and, and, and the row houses, you know, they, where they look, the people. So it was, you know, Baltimore was just, it's just such a character in an, in and of itself that, you know, it was in, in essence, it was the main character. Yeah. It was like having, I mentioned on a previous episode, like having the backlot, you know, except it's real. It's not fake backlot. It's like really charming and historical. Yeah.

[00:41:03] Fells Point, the water, the harbor there. I mean, just, oh, just, just incredible. Great location. So many amazing places. Yeah. Yeah. I was a bit blown away by myself. I went there in 2024 and, uh, no, it was quite mind blowing seeing everything kind of on top of each other and stuff. It was so cool. And Fells Point. Yeah. Brilliant. Really cool place. Um, so what was it, you know, what was the sort of typical day for you then like on a, on set with the show? Did you have any kind of particular process as an actress you'd like to sort of get into

[00:41:32] things or, uh, yeah, even was there a typical day on Holosite? From what I can remember, you know, a lot of it, look, a lot of it is hurry up and wait. You know, it's like every show, you know, you kind of, you know, you, you, you might have a big scene that you have to do and maybe there's a lot of dialogue. Maybe it's one of those scenes, uh, you know, where say, uh, foul zone and Kellerman are going

[00:41:57] to go at it or something or, or, or Cotto and, and, and, and whatever, you know, maybe it's a scene like that, but then you have to wait, you know, and you're, and you're, you're ready to go. And it's kind of like, sometimes it's like being a, like a boxer and you're getting ready to go in the ring and you have all this adrenaline. You just want to get in and you want to fight. You want to take the first shot. You want to, you just want to get in there. And it's, it's, it's the waiting before the fight that is tough. You know, you have to, you know, you, you just want to go.

[00:42:26] And, uh, so sometimes some days were like that where you, you, you're just waiting to go and raring to go. And, but you know, I'd hang out with the Teamsters. The Teamsters were the best. I mean, they were the best. They own Baltimore, the Teamsters. You know, and I always, I always remember my, from my first movie, they say, listen, the people you want to make friends with first are the Teamsters because they will have your back. They will take care of you. Some of them might be connected, mafioso, but I'm just kidding. But yeah, so I would hang out with the Teamsters.

[00:42:55] Sometimes they had barbecues they were doing right, right by the trailers and they'd invite me to come, you know, have a hot dog or something. Oh, that's cool. I bought my first motorcycle off of Bob was one of the Teamsters. Oh, did you really? He wanted to buy a boat. So he was selling his motorcycle. I'd ever rode one before. I said, I'll buy it. That was my first motorcycle. Interesting. What kind of motorcycle? It was a Harley Davidson 1996 Softail. Ah. Yeah. Softail is the one that goes like that, right?

[00:43:24] So yeah, I'd hang out with the Teamsters, you know, get some rest and stuff. Because, you know, if you know you have a big scene or if it was going to be a long day or maybe it was going to turn into a night shoot, you know, just kind of rest up as much as you can because night shoots can go pretty long. Yeah. That's pretty much it. And we had this handheld shooting style.

[00:43:47] And you came in literally the episode after the last time Jean de Saganczak was directing and he had obviously shot the show the first four seasons. And then Alex came in and you came in when Alex Zakrzewski, I always say that correctly until today. Zakrzewski. Alex Z. Right. Alex Z was shooting the show.

[00:44:14] Had you been on other shows where there wasn't a traditional shooting style like this show? I mean, the handheld nature of it and the fact that it was 16 means that the cameras inside, you know, you guys in the squad room all around constantly moving, which may have led to some of the feeling of freedom for you where you could try new things. And that literally we never did it the same way exactly because they wanted to have these sort of overlapping jump cuts and things.

[00:44:44] So was that shooting style different? Did it, you know, how did that feel or was it not that different to you when you jumped into it? Yeah, that was my first experience with shwanking. I think it was called shwanking. Shwanking. Or shwanking. Shwanking was what he did. He's like, watch out because I'm coming over there. Right, shwanking. Right, shwanking. That was my first time experiencing that.

[00:45:06] But what I loved about it, what I loved about it was you, you had to be on all the time. You had to be ready because you could be in a scene, say it's in a squad room and Falzono's at his desk. I'm trying to remember what the character is. And Ballard's at her desk. You know, Stivers is at her desk. Lewis Clark, Clark Johnson, is at his desk or something.

[00:45:34] And the scene might just be really focused on Clark and Belzer having a conversation at their desk. And you're all the way over there and you're not on camera. But you might be. You might end up on camera. The scene might actually end on you. Or you could be a big part of it because of that shrinking. You know, all of a sudden, boom, there's a camera and it's on you. And you can't just be sitting there sleeping or, you know, you have to be on.

[00:46:04] So I love that about that because you're always kind of looking and watching the camera and just being prepared for if it comes your way, which allows you then to do some things. And think of, from having my experience with my friend, Detective Joe Genchi in his squad room and seeing how a lot of the detectives would be going about their business or whatever one might be doing and try to, you know, it gave you chances to do things that if it's

[00:46:29] caught on camera, someone, especially a detective or a police officer, would look at that and go, that's what I do. Or that's what I do. I would be doing that. You know, I'd be, you know, sitting there with my feet up on a desk, folded, you know, waiting for a phone call or, you know, I'd be, I'd be doodling or I'd be throwing a, you know, something at Stivers, you know, those, and I'd wait for the camera to turn my way and just be like, you know, doing something that, you know, cause so that's what I loved

[00:46:59] about, about that whole camera stuff. I mean, those, and the focus, I can't remember the focus, the focus puller. Well, at that point, it initially was Boots Shelton and then it was Dave Thompson. And I don't, I don't have in front of me who it had switched over to at that point. I think it was Dave, but he would, you'd see them and they had to be prepared. So the camera's facing that way and they're holding, he's holding the focus thing, right? Cause this is back in the day, this is back before they had the remote stuff that they have now.

[00:47:28] So he's like on the side of the camera and all of a sudden Alex would, would whip that camera around and he duck under the camera, still holding the focus and just making it perfect. I mean, these guys were talking about ambidextrous. I mean, these guys were amazing. So yeah, it's such an incredible crew. And a couple of the actors talked about, and I have to think about whether I'm sure that

[00:47:57] Alex did it too, but Jean was very good at sort of, of leading when he was about to do something. Cause he'd be looking through the camera and with his other eye, he'd look across the room and everybody's like, oh shit, hit the deck. He's going to swing the camera over here. That's right. And I guess Alex probably did that too. Cause he was still moving. Yeah. You know, moving around. Yeah. But sometimes you were too far away so you couldn't see his eye. So you still had to be ready. You're like, oh, he's going to turn at any moment.

[00:48:28] Yeah. That, that was, it really was. And then behind him is, is, is, is, is Lorenzo or somebody with the boom mic, you know, also trying and then keep the boom mic out of the shot. It was such a dance. They did such a dance. And, and, and the thing about it is it wasn't choreographed. They made it up all as they were going. Right. And it was always so amazing. And, you know, I think that that's another thing that made it so special to show that

[00:48:56] the, the, the look of homicide had that unique look because of all that. You know, I had never seen that. I don't think there was ever a show before that, that, you know, like Hill Street Blues. I think, I think that was more of a traditional shot or the way they shot that. So I think that was, for me, that was the first time I ever experienced that. And I never, and I never experienced that again too. That was really unique to that show. So yeah, it was. And, and, and certainly we use, we overuse it, but it was certainly groundbreaking, which

[00:49:24] is why I think when you look at it now, it still looks great. It doesn't look dated. It just looks like a modern show. I have a question about, about, you know, you had this, you come in with this tough exterior, but there were so many great scenes with kids. And one of them, which is like totally burned in my memory. And then I went back and looked at it again last night was, was the three-parter with James Earl Jones called Blood Ties.

[00:49:49] And there was a second, there's a secondary storyline with one of Luther's crew getting shot by somebody. And the kid, the kid in, in the household is a witness to it. And his mom and dad get killed. Mark John Jeffries, who's now a grownup, obviously, but then was six years old. And you're trying to break through with him to get him to, you know, very sort of gently, you're sitting on a park bench and you're trying to break through to him,

[00:50:15] trying to figure out how to get him to talk about this horrible situation where his mom and dad got killed. And you figure out that he likes cars. You go over, yeah. And you say, he says, why don't you have, why don't you have a real police car? And, and you said, well, I'm a detective. So we have Cavaliers. And you turn to the Cavalier and you say, I think this one's a 92. And the little kid, Mark John Jeffries, who's six says, no, that's a 91. And then it clicks.

[00:50:44] He's like, oh, you like cars? And all of a sudden you have this huge thing you have in common. And she just came from auto theft, right? So if anybody knows cars, you know, Paul Falzone knows cars. So you start talking to him and the way you bond with him is to show him how to hotwire a car. That's what you can say. Which you say that your dad taught you, but your dad also said, you can never do this. I'm going to show you how to do it, but you can never do it. But the scenes with him are so beautiful.

[00:51:12] So can you talk a little bit about what you brought? I think at that point you may have, but I don't think you were married and had kids yet at that point. So it's just really great stuff with the children that they brought into your character. Can you remember that? And can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I do remember that now. That was a great scene. It was so well-written. I mean, the show is just so well-written.

[00:51:39] I'm just a fortunate actor that got to say these words that were given to me, you know, and try to find the best way to honor those words and say them. So, you know, they made it so easy with that. But, yeah, that was at the time, actually, I did have a son, my real son. Oh, okay.

[00:52:06] My now wife, who was my on and off girlfriend then, we're now married 25 years. Yes. Congratulations. Thank you. That's a long time for Hollywood. Yeah. And during that time, during that time, it was, it's a whole nother story, but we were on and off. It was, it was ugly sometimes. It just, it was not, it was not good. So I was, you know, missing my son a lot of times while I was filming Homicide. Sure.

[00:52:35] So having a scene with, with a kid or anything, it was just almost like me talking to my son. Yeah. You know, I wish I was teaching my real son how to hotwire a car. Right. So here he is. He put out a note to do list. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Now, the picture that you used in the show, was that? That was him. Because that looks like him. So the picture in your wallet in the show wasn't that picture. It was, it was like a school photo, like a closeup.

[00:53:04] So, cause I often wondered, was that your real son or was that just some picture they drew, they pulled out? Or was it you when you were a little kid? So that was actually a picture of your son in the show. That was my son. That's great. Yeah, that was, that was my son. Oh, that's great. That's great. So yeah, you know, it, those scenes where I just, I love doing that because it gave me an opportunity to kind of just tap into, you know, my dad, you know, my, my wanting to

[00:53:30] be a good father mode and, and, you know, but of course with Falzon and having to connect, you know, what was his relationship with his father and, and, and, and, you know, what can he bring to this child and, you know, so it was, it was a lot of that, that mixed in, but I love those scenes where it's just, uh, to me, sometimes those are the hardest scenes. You know, you can have shoot them up scenes and, and, you know, two pages of dialogue with,

[00:54:00] you know, just a big battle and stuff. And, you know, those are tough within their own rights, but I've, sometimes I think the quiet scenes, the one where it's one-on-one, you know, and you, and you're having to tap into some kind of deep emotion. I, I think that's hard for, for a lot of law enforcement to do because sometimes they're always, they have to be on, they have to be so, they have to be up here and ready, you

[00:54:29] know, with the, with the, with their fist up and gloves up and ready to defend all the time to bring it down and have a moment when you're bringing it down. To me, those are always some of the toughest, but most beautiful and most challenging. And Mark John Jeffries was so good in those, he was so natural and the pathos in his performance as a six-year-old of having just lost his parents and then connecting with you, just really super, just beautiful stuff.

[00:54:58] Great cast. Beautiful. Going to another extreme, what was it like working with Charles Durning on Finnegan's Wake, who was the older cranky detective? Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That was a fantastic episode. Great episode. Oh, I just watched that last night. Oh my gosh. May he rest in peace. My goodness gracious. Oh, he, what an honor it was to work with him. I just, I was so fortunate, man. Man, was I fortunate.

[00:55:26] Just, I remember when, when I saw he was the one that was going to be doing a role. It's, oh my gosh. This guy's been in everything. I've seen him. He's like, he's amazing. You know, he served our country. You know, he just, the stories he would, he would, he would tell, you know, we'd sit there and talk and just such a, just such a natural, I mean, he would just, my goodness. He just wanted to be around him.

[00:55:54] You know, I just, I remember like in the scenes, it was just, I loved talking to him and being around him because it was just on a personal level, I was able to learn so much from him and just had so much respect, you know, and was able to use that as foul zone because foul zones looking at him with respect, you know, because of, of, of his character was retired cop, right? Wasn't he retired?

[00:56:24] Yeah. 20 years retired. And he was living with the fact that he hadn't solved cases, right? Or solved the case, I believe it was. It was a specific case from 1932. Yeah. A young girl shot. Yeah. Clara Sloan. Right. Being able to work in tandem with him, being able to work with him to solve this, it became, from what I remember, it became more, it actually became less about the actual case.

[00:56:50] And what, what I wanted to focus on as foul zone was solving this for him, like doing it for him, which, you know, I mean, I guess that answers the question. Charles, I mean, he was, he was just amazing. And your relationship starts off with, you go to pick up the case files because he took the case files and the evidence in 1972 because he was trying to still solve the crime, which he didn't, he wasn't the lead detective one.

[00:57:18] And somebody handed it to him 12 years after the crime. And so he had all this stuff and you, you get there and you're like, just give me the boxes. You're like, give me the boxes. I'm going to get out of here. And so throughout the story, you, you, you learn to respect him and, and, and, and are feeling, I think, empathetic for him and all that. But then there's a scene at the end where you've been drinking at a bar with, with Kellerman and with, and with Lewis, with Clark and, and yeah.

[00:57:47] And you, and you met, and he, and he said, why don't you sing? It's like, he's Irish. So you expect him to sing a song in a bar. And he's like, I'm not going to sing. I'm not going to sing. And you start singing if you think I'm sexy, which that's a whole other question I have anyway. And then he starts singing, but then he's telling stories and he call, he, he uses the word spook in front of Lewis about a prior case with a black guy. And, and, and Clark gets up and leaves. He's like, okay, I'm leaving before I get into this.

[00:58:14] And then you take, you drive Charles Durning, his character home, and you're both kind of trashed and you get out of the car to help him into the house. And he turns on you and calls you something like a punk Dago bastard or something like that. And it's like the, the way they pull you through the show with the writing where, where you don't really respect or like the guy. And then he's almost like a father figure. And like you said, you're working with him.

[00:58:41] So to help him solve this crime that's been hanging on him forever for 50 years or whatever it is. And then he, he just like turns on a dime on you, but was also like you mentioned earlier, the reality of life, right? Like the reality in prison is sometimes people die when you don't expect them to. And, and here's a guy, you know, who was brought up on the streets of Baltimore in the thirties, you know, and, and, and, and has seen all these, these different things that has attitudes that you didn't see come out until that scene.

[00:59:11] But how I wondered for you as an actor, what that was like with Charles Durning spitting these like, you know, obscenities, racist obscenities at you. That just had to be pretty heavy. Do you remember? Do you remember? Cause then you walked, you turn around and you kick the side of the car, you kick the door closed with your foot. And I thought, okay, I bet that was a little bit of an ad lib on John's part. I don't know if you remember that specifically, but it was a powerful.

[00:59:41] I don't remember everything to a T, but I'm pretty sure as, as I look back, you know, from all the preparation that we would do, that's also amazing thing about homicide too. It was at a different time where, you know, I don't think a lot of those things would go today on, on certain shows, you know, so there was a lot of freedom there. I mean, that was, that was before HR, I believe.

[01:00:10] I don't think HR was, but, you know, so I would say that it's not an excuse, but there's the reality of understanding where Charles Durning's character came from, the time that he came

[01:00:31] from when he was, you know, working as a detective and what he was around and what he saw and what was around him. You know, so there's an understanding that that was a different time. And again, not to excuse, you know, how somebody might, might, might think. Yeah, no, because that's the way it was written too. Yeah. Like I looked, I looked at it like, well, what, how would Falzone be if he came from that time?

[01:01:00] How would, how would Lewis be if he came from that time? You know, how would, you know, there's, you know, there's, there's certain things that didn't take away at least from the fact that, you know, he, he was more than that. He was more than, than that part of him, that, that might've been a 1% of him or a 2% of him, but it wasn't the full percentage of who he was.

[01:01:26] It stings, you know, especially, I think, I think the frustration for Falzone was, you know, he, he committed to doing this work for him, committed to, you know, thinking, all right, we, we did this, you know, we did this together and this and that. And then he, you know, for him to turn around and, and, and do that, I think it stung for him, but, but it was also, you know, to, to his nature for that, that character, you know,

[01:01:52] you, where they say you could take them, you could take someone out of the, out of the slum. Right. Right. But sometimes some of that stuff sticks, you know? Yeah. So I think it was kind of that, you know. That episode also had Steve Buscemi directing it. He's an amazing actor and director. What was that like? That must've been quite something. That's right. Steve Buscemi directed that. That's right. I mean, I remember when he first came in, I mean, of course, you all know who Steve Buscemi is.

[01:02:21] So it's like Steve Buscemi's here. I think I, I first saw him when we were having lunch or something. I walked in on lunch with him and there he is. And, you know, he's, cause what would usually happen as, as you remember, the directors would come, what was it like a couple of weeks in advance or something like that? They, while they had a week of prep, usually a week of prep, so they, week of prep before they shot while we were still shooting. Exactly. You'd, so you'd see the new director walking around while you're still filming. Yep. So, so that's when I first saw Steve, I think I saw him at lunch.

[01:02:50] I just said, wow, that's got to set, you know, sit down with him and, and just say hi and talk. And it was just so great. That was the other great thing about, you know, homicide and a lot of, to be fair, a lot of network TV where you get different directors that come in, you know? So I think, I think that's great because, you know, each one brings a different perspective, different skillset. And, and it's, it's, you know, you can, you can easily get stale or stuck in, in one way

[01:03:19] of doing your character or seeing your character. And then someone like Steve Buscemi comes in, who's, who's directing, but he's also a great actor himself. So, you know, you, you're like, you're all, you're, you're, you're, you know, you're all ears. You want, you want to hear what he says. You want to really take, take his advice and, and just really play off of what he gives you. So yeah, it was great work with Steve. And that was a complex show because it had, it had period flashbacks to 1932.

[01:03:50] So it, you know, it, it really, it really had a lot of stuff going on in it. And, and I think the, and I can, I've never found out if it was both Barry and Tom or just Barry's idea that they wanted feature film, or I mean, they were almost all feature film directors who had never directed television or who would, who were known for, for feature films. So you had people coming through like Alan Taylor you worked with and, and Ken Fink and Mary Heron. Yeah, Ken Fink. Oh, he's so great.

[01:04:20] Yeah. Ken Fink who did the most episodes of Homicide. And then the first episode you did where your, your characters was introduced was, I think the only time we had a husband and wife team directing. That's right. Which was Leslie and Larry Libman. They might've done enough. No, they, I think they did. I think they did Blue Moon or whatever the one was. They did. That was, yeah. I think they did two episodes. Yeah. So that was interesting too, because they were sort of like two brains with one, you know,

[01:04:49] one ad, you know, one sort of thought, you know, they were really interesting. I don't know if you remember, remember them specifically or not. Yeah, I do. And what I loved about that was, yeah, they were, like you said, there were two brains. So especially coming, coming on to the show in the end of the fifth season, you know, to have as many brains around you as you can to help make sure it goes right. You know, it was great to have, have the two of them because they, they each, even though

[01:05:19] they were directing together, they each had their own style, you know? So, you know, you, you, you talk to one and get a different sound, talk to the other and get a different stuff, but it all just kind of worked together. I love that. That was great. And you don't, I have not worked, I don't think I've ever, ever worked again with a double, a double team directing combo or, or something like that ever. That was, that was the only time ever. They were interesting.

[01:05:47] Very eclectic and very, I just remember their fashion too. They were really, really cool. They're really sort of hipster, hipster. Oh, cool. With their fashion. They were great. Yeah, I think they were very, very involved in Falzone's look with the leather jacket, the long leather jacket, the certain style that he had. That makes sense because they helped read Diamond with his look on Blue Moon because that was the, he'd been on it a little while, but he was never satisfied with his look until that

[01:06:15] episode, Blue Moon, when they came in and then they could have nailed the Kellerman looks. That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and your hair and wardrobe went through a couple of permutations throughout those five seasons, four seasons or whatever it was, five, six, seven. And, you know, and you went from the leather jacket to the suits, but then you often went back to the overcoat leather jacket instead of like the shorter one. I mean, your hair got shorter and longer here and sometimes there was earrings. Right.

[01:06:42] And then toward the end, I noticed in, I guess it was in season seven, you had these like 1940s ties, these amazing kind of like big colorful ties. I was like, I wonder where, you know, and we talked to the wardrobe people last month and I, you know, we asked a lot of questions, but Paul Falzone's ties didn't come up. So I should ask them, you know, where that came from and if that was what that developed from, because you didn't come in with that, right? You came in with the auto squad look.

[01:07:12] So, yeah, it was interesting. Yeah. I remember because he was coming from auto theft where they just, he was, he was undercover a lot in very civilian style clothes and, and tie suit and ties weren't a thing. And he had, I think I had facial hair and long hair. So the transition, I remember, I remember, you know, I, when it comes to, when it comes to, uh, hair and makeup wardrobe, I always, I always just trust them.

[01:07:41] I like, you know, I'm like whatever they think is right. You know, as long as it fits, you know, I'm just like, you know, uh, normally for me when I'm working on something, it's usually clothes I would never wear myself, but it's works for the character. And if it works for the character, I don't care. It's whatever you, whatever you guys feel is right. Cause they're professionals. They know what they're doing. So I let them basically choose everything. But I do remember the conversation was always wanted it to look awkward, a bit awkward for

[01:08:10] Falzone putting on a suit and putting on ties. And it would make, he would pick, grab a tie that probably he shouldn't be putting on and keep it loose. And, you know, he just like, all right, I'll wear, I'll wear a, I'll wear a suit, but I'm going to wear it my way, you know, kind of thing. Right, right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Were there any, are there any other, any other episodes that sort of stand out for you that you found either challenging or really satisfying that you recall? Well, you know what?

[01:08:38] There was the crossover, the first crossover that I did where I think it was Belzer's character and myself went to New York. Yep. And teamed up with- Sins of the Father. Yes. Sins of the Father. Benjamin Bratt. Yep. Jerry Orbach. Jerry Orbach. Jerry Orbach. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Oh my goodness gracious. He was- And Dan Hedaya.

[01:09:06] I worked with both of those guys on other stuff. Apatha Murchison. Apatha. Oh, who was that? She was- Was that the judge? The sergeant or sergeant? I think she was a sergeant at the time. She's now in Chicago Med. Ah, cool. Huh. Yeah, Apatha. I looked that up. I think she was the main boss on the show at the time, like the sergeant or whatever, something like that. Oh, up in New York. In New York for Law & Order. On Law & Order. Oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha.

[01:09:36] So getting to work with them, I mean, Jerry Orbach was just incredible to be doing scenes with the great Jerry Orbach. And I learned so much from him and talking to him, and he was just such a nice, humble guy, and just, man, he was just so great. And then Sam Waterson. Right. Yeah, and they all came down. Yeah, here.

[01:10:01] There was an episode where him and Falzone had some really good scenes together, and I just respected him so much. And I remember his character being such a veteran. You know, I think at first kind of looked at Falzone as like, who's this young punk kind of guy that's trying to, you know, control my little world here. And, you know, but it, and I think that, I think that case involved a young child as

[01:10:31] well, I think. Was it a young girl that had died? And the question was, had the father been sexually abusing her? Right, yeah. And he was a doctor who had covered it up when she'd come to the hospital, and then she died. That was challenging. Turned out to be the, that turned out to be the mother. Yes. The mother was the abuser. That was very challenging. Yeah. That was, especially being a young father myself, you know, going through what I was

[01:11:00] going through, and for Falzone, you know, you know, his, his, his love for his child, you know, it, I, that was a challenging one. That was, that was a tough one. And then with going back and forth from New York and, and, and, and Baltimore. But that was, it was incredible. I mean, I was, it was one of my favorites, you know, just because of my, again, the great

[01:11:29] fortune of, let alone working with the amazing, amazing cast on Homicide, being able to team up with that veteran cast of Law and Order. I mean, man, I'm so thankful. I'll thank him again now. Thank you, writers. Thank you, Tom. Thank you, Barry, for involving me in that, because that was, and that was, that turned out to be, I think, the first ever crossover, I think, for Dick Wolf and, at that time. I think so. I think it was, might've been the first one. And that was Ed Sheeran directing.

[01:11:57] So then you, you got, did you, you get, yes, you got more work later from the Dick Wolf experience from that. And then I ended up doing a bunch of crossovers with Chicago PD and crossing over Law and Order again. But this time I'm not Falzone, I'm someone else. And, but yeah, it was, it was, for it to kind of come full circle and go, wow, I was part of the first crossover, which is pretty cool. And Belzer, of course, went on to play that character forever.

[01:12:28] Yeah. He did. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, bless him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but I think you might've had the record with playing the same character through four different TV series, through Law and Order, Chicago PD, Med, and Fire was the same detective. Oh, I didn't do a med. I didn't do a med. Oh, you didn't? Yeah. So fire, PD, justice. Justice, right. It was justice, fire, PD, and Law and Order. Homicide, Law and Order. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:56] Except, except you were the same detective in the, in the four, in the other four, not, not Paul Falzone, but you were that other detective. That's right. That's cool. Were there any other episodes that stand out for you? Because we were being watching some, we've been trying our best to sort of watch a few episodes in prep for this. And I, I really enjoyed, um, Kellerman PI, um, where you and Kellerman kind of, it almost kind of closed that sort of, uh, rivalry that happened with you guys, uh, through season six.

[01:13:22] That was the one where, where the kids have a baby in the hotel room. Yes, yes. And bury it in the back. That's it. And then Kellerman becomes their, the PI for the defense. And you're trying to nail whoever murdered the baby. And that was another one where you were very hypersensitized to the fact that these kids killed a baby and you weren't sure who was who. But, but you had a son and you also had a custody battle and there's so many things wrapped

[01:13:52] up, wrapped up in that and then pissed off that Kellerman is, is, is, is now interjecting himself on the other side. Do you remember any of that? I, I don't remember it too much, honestly. I, I do remember though that for foul zone, which like I talked to, you know, when I talked to many police officers and especially my friend, Joe Genchi, you know, there was a line

[01:14:18] that you just don't cross even as a criminal and then that was the children, you know, and, and things like children, you know, just that's, you know, it really sets, sets you off, you know, and you have to try and find a way to suppress that because you can't really work off of your emotions. And, and even though, you know, so China, that, that's another battle in the, in and of itself for the characters while we're filming.

[01:14:48] But yeah, you know, I, I love the way the writing went where he would, you know, you see these guys that, you know, they ever reconcile, would they not reconcile, you know, and, and, and will they be friendly or at the very least be work friendly. And I think Kellerman foul zone, you know, I, I think there was a respect that was there.

[01:15:11] It was earned respect, you know, you know, to be honest, I can't remember exactly how all the scenes went, but. Yeah. And in that particular episode, there was the, the second part of Kellerman PI part two, you have a reconciliation with him because although he's working for the defense, you know that the boy did not kill the baby, the, the girl did the, his girlfriend did.

[01:15:40] And, and he, and the boy ends up going to prison for it and the girl gets off. But then Kellerman feeds you anonymously, but you know, it's him, a piece of information that proves that the girl did it. But unfortunately that the trial has already happened. And then the boy kills himself in jail when he realizes the girlfriend flips on him. But there's a really great scene at the end and Chris and I think it was the last scene for Reed Diamond. And I have to go. Oh, wow. At least at a show. Yeah.

[01:16:08] But we think it was the last scene for him where you go into a bar and he's there and you go to thank him for feeding you that information. And he, you know, he, you say thanks for, for the, for the tip. And he says, what tip? Like he, he pretends that he doesn't, you know, he, he didn't give you that anonymous tip, but you know, it was from him. And then at the end, when you leave, you turn around and say, thank you, detective to him after he's obviously been off the force for a while and was semi disgraced.

[01:16:37] And then he looks at himself and there's a sort of dirty mirror in front of him behind the bar. And he looks at himself in the mirror. And so there was, there was a chance in that whole arc of all the seasons that you were there, where you were investigating him, where he was, you know, he was resigned instead of getting, you know, kicked off the force that you had a chance to reconcile with his character.

[01:17:03] And he did, I think a little for himself as well in that episode, because he ultimately does the right thing. And you thank him for that. So it was really cool to see that. Was that the bar scene where he's having a drink, I come in and we're having, like you said, we're having that conversation. And then didn't I say something like, look at us, who would have thought? And then he says, not me or something, right? Probably.

[01:17:32] The whole conversation was sort of like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And, and, and his, his, his take or double take when you leave and say, see a detective and he sort of absorbs that like, okay, I finally got the respect back. Right. And especially between the two of you, because you had to sort of send them up the river. I mean, you had, you proved that it was a bad shooting, but yeah, that's a great little scene that was in Kellerman PI part two. Wow. Which was directed by Jay Tobias.

[01:18:02] I don't know if you remember Jay who was assistant directing on the show and then got a couple directing jobs. And that was a great, that was a really good, really good episode. Yeah. Were there any other episodes that stood out for you that you remember or just sort of happy memories from filming the show that sort of stand out for you? Oh, you know what? There was a, there was an episode with, cause I just got, I remember I was, I was watching Black Mirror last night and there was an episode with Paul Giamatti.

[01:18:31] In this Black Mirror. And it reminded me of when he guest starred on Homicide. And he was with the dogs, right? Oh, with the dogs. Was it Pitbulls? I think it was Pitbulls or something. That was so gross. Yeah. He was so, was that the one where it was like. Oh my God, his character. Wasn't it like a barbecue, something like Clark, Falzone and Clark find, like, was it the nose in the, in the barbecue?

[01:19:00] Oh, that's a different, that's a different episode. That one. That's a, that's a, that's a different one. But yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a. The neighbors that have a fight. Oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah, but the nose. Paul Giamatti, you remember when he came through there and it was just like, he was such a great, it's so great to work with him and then to see how far he went after that was, was pretty incredible. Yes, yes. But you know what? So many people that came on there, we didn't know, they, we didn't know who they were, right?

[01:19:25] And I'll tell you one of the, one of the, like the, the most fun I had, I mean, we had so much fun on that set. We had so much fun, but Yafit Kodo, Yafit Kodo, I remember it was so funny because he could never get my character's name right. He could never get, like we'd be rehearsing and he's reading it. He's, he's reading off the sides and we're rehearsing as we would always do.

[01:19:54] We'd rehearse, you know, before we're going to shoot. And he's reading it and he's like, gets to my name. He's like, uh, Detective, uh, Falcone, Falcone. You would, you would start with Detective Falcone, Falcone. And I'm, I would just be like, you're reading it. It's right there. And he just would never get it right. Like it just cracked me up. And then like, and we would, we'd rehearse a scene and he'd be sitting at his desk and

[01:20:24] he has all this dialogue and he's barely getting through it in rehearsal and he's reading it. And he's just like, has none of it memorized. I don't know if this was a style of his or a tactic or whatever, but it was like, it was like pulling teeth. And I remember sitting there looking at it and going, how are we going to film this? I mean, he doesn't, he, he, he can't say my line. He can't say my name. He's having trouble with the lines.

[01:20:50] But then when we went to film, my gosh, the magic, the magic would be captured. He, he just, it was just amazing. It was amazing to me. His process was, was so amazing. He was amazing. He'd sit there watching, how are they, how are they going to get this on film? How are they going to put this together? And it would just be magic. And he just, he was just amazing.

[01:21:17] It was such a big, big guy, but such a, such a sweet soul. And he was just so, so kind and to everybody. But I loved, I just loved working with it because he would crack me up. And I remember that, that scene you mentioned before about me and Peter Geraghty getting into it. And, and I, we were rehearsing. In his office, yeah. Yeah, in the office. We were rehearsing. We're going at it. And I turned to look at Yoffin. He's just sitting there laughing. He's just, he's just cracking up.

[01:21:47] So we had, we had a lot of fun. And Richard Belzer just, I mean, he was just, he was so much fun. So much fun. Yeah, I worked with, with, with Yoffin 10 years before that on a show called, a movie called Star Chamber. And I remember I was a trainee. I was very young and I was standing off the side going, this guy's awful. And he was so good in the movie. Like when I saw the movie and, and saw what he was, whatever he was doing, those close

[01:22:16] ups that I couldn't see from across the room. It was, it was, it really is. It's amazing. It's worth watching Homicide for a million different things. But one of them is to watch Yoffin. And you had a scene and I'm looking at my notes. I can't find what episode it was. You had a scene in the box with just him where he is really pissed off at you about something. And I can't remember how it was, I made all these notes and I can't find it.

[01:22:44] But I remember thinking, of course, he's like six, five or whatever, towering over you. And just this giant man. And do you remember having those confrontational scenes with him? And, and, and it must've felt like a tidal wave coming at you and how you respond to that. Not just as an actor, like, I know I have to say these lines in this scene, but you're John Seda and they're going, holy crap, Yoffin Kodo was like coming at me. How was that?

[01:23:13] John, me, would try to get far away from him as, as, as I could. And, and deescalate whatever's going on where Falzon, unfortunately, you know, thinks he's a lot bigger than he actually is. And, and we would, would want to take on a challenge and, and, and fight with him. But I remember it was, you know, it's very, he's intimidating. He can easily be intimidating. And I just remember, just don't hit me.

[01:23:42] Just don't, don't swing at me. Cause the show is very loosey goosey. He could turn around and just whack me and, and I'd be out. I mean, his hand is like a, it's like a bear. Huge hands. Huge hands. Huge hands. But yeah, he was, you know, it made it so easy. It made it so easy to, to just be able to play off of, you know, because he, he can go from zero to a hundred so quick if, if need be, you know, but it was, yeah, it was very, very easy to.

[01:24:12] Oh, you know, it was, I just found it. It was in La Familia where his cousin, where all the Italians get whacked by the former mob guy in his home, you know, in, in, in, in little Italy where he grew up. And one of, one of the people that gets chopped into pieces in the bathtub is his cousin. Yeah. So he was on edge through the whole thing. He might've, he might've, he might've, I think he, in the scene, he puts out some Italian work or something. And that, you, you know, he's angry when he starts speaking Italian. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:24:42] Yeah. Oh, Chris, I love that one you brought up. It was the same one with the nose on the barbecue. Oh yes. Hang on. About, about the things that, that Falcone picks up that the other detectives don't pick up because Falcone is Italian. Explain that, Chris, because that was really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Identity crisis. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is the one where, um, basically you and Lewis appear at a crime scene. A guy's been shot in the back twice, but his nose has been cut off.

[01:25:12] And then eventually you see there's a barbecue smoking. You guys open up the barbecue. You see a few things and he's sort of like, what's that? And it turns out to be the guy's nose. Right. Um, and, and then, and then it kind of, you start interviewing the neighbors, one neighbor called the guy Smokey, but then there's this woman who, who there's just something a bit off about her. And you, and you suspect that she might actually be Italian. And then you go and meet her husband at the bar who claims he's from, um, uh, New Hampshire. Connecticut or something.

[01:25:41] Connecticut or something. Yeah. And, and, and, but he's doing like hands, hand symbols with what he's talking and stuff and these Italian hand gestures. And you really pick up on this. And that is, and then it turns out, you know, spoiler alert that there is something more to him than meets the eye. Right. Right. You say something about the wife or whoever, like that there's no way she's a Lisa. So she's definitely an Angela. Yeah. No, there was that. Something like that.

[01:26:07] I do remember, I do remember that he was just like, I think Falzon's like, come on, you got this, you got this. He's a librarian from Connecticut. Really? Right. Right. That's it. That's it. He's good. And he turned out to be, yeah. In the witness protection program. He was mob. Right. In the witness. Yeah. He's a mob hit man. Yeah. He's from Connecticut because he has to live there. Witness protection. Exactly. Oh, that's funny.

[01:26:37] That was a good one. That was a good one. And you got partnered up with quite a few different sort of people over the shows. Yes. You had Belzer. You had Clark Johnson. You mentioned Terry Stivers, who was played by. Hang on. The name's completely jumped out of my head for a second. Tony Lewis. Tony Lewis. That's it. Yeah. I mean, any memories of sort of working with sort of different actors through the show, the different partnerships that you had and so on? Yeah. I mean, like everyone's just so great.

[01:27:01] Everybody had such a different take and different perspective and just brought something different every day. So it was just great to, I love when we, you know, switched up teams and, you know, it was a lot of fun. I mean, everybody was just so different. You know, Clark Johnson, I love working. He's so, oh my gosh, he's just so natural.

[01:27:27] He's just, every, he's like, Clark is like, to me, he's like, he's poetic. He's like, every, every word that comes out of, out of him, it just has some kind of, it's like poetry. You know, there's, there's, there's just something to everything. He's just, it really is. He's just, he's just so unique and so caring. And so, you know, his Clark himself would sit there and hear you and, you know, not,

[01:27:57] not judge one way or the other. He would just take things in and, you know, think about how he's going to answer back. You know, so I just, I just loved working with Clark came, he came to my wedding. Clark Johnson came. Oh, wow. Oh, nice. He came to my wedding. Cool. So. And that was back in like, what, 2000? That was 2000. Somewhere back there? Yep. Yeah. Oh, wow. So, yeah, it was great working with everybody.

[01:28:22] The relationship with Falzone and, and Callie Thorne, uh, Falzone and Ballard. Yeah. Right. That was fun. Yeah, it must've gone out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That was fun. I bet that was fun. Yeah. She's great. You know, I, I, I like how on the show it looked like, you know, maybe they could have gotten together. Maybe they could have been a happy couple, but you know, Falzone had too many things going

[01:28:48] on with his, with his situation with his ex-wife and, and, and his child. And I think, I think he respected Ballard enough to not want to keep putting her through all that stuff. She deserved more, deserved better, something like that. But they had fun. It was, it was fun. I remember there was a, there was a boxing, I think there was a boxing scene. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:29:17] There was a boxing scene. Yes. And, and. And she's watching you box. I think Falzone gets. And she's salivated. Yeah. But I think Falzone gets beat up. Doesn't Falzone get beat up or something? I think he does. He's been a, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, I think he gets beat up or something like that. I think he has like a black eye or something. But just. It's really unrealistic. Yeah. It was, it was very, I remember it was fun because it was very, the way I wanted to go

[01:29:45] about it was, I remember I wanted to go about it kind of like, it's, it's, it's like, they're like Greece. It's like John Schiavolta and Olivia Newton-John. I wanted to make it, I wanted, I wanted to go about it. Like, like when Falzone is with Ballard, it's like he's, he's. He's Schiavolta from Greece and she's Sandy, you know? So it was kind of like that.

[01:30:14] So it was like, it was playful and, and fun in that, in that regard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember at the time, I know a lot of us were skeptical on the set when we got to like season seven, six and seven, where they started introducing, you know, relationships and sex into the show. We're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. And when you watch it now, it's like, it's just so good. It just, it works. It, it, it absolutely works really well. And I think at them, at some point, and Chris, you can, you might remember too.

[01:30:43] Didn't, wasn't there, was, or, or John, maybe you remember, was there a conversation in G's office where G's sort of like knock it off? Yeah. Like stop with the relationship. Wasn't that, it was also a no, a no, no. And I think you got back together a little bit at some point, but there, but I think it was a professional thing where I think you both regretted. I think it was obvious you both regretted that you couldn't carry it, carry it on in,

[01:31:07] in, in, like you said, in a more, you know, like into a real relationship, not just a, well, they're, they're all real relationships, but you know what I mean? Right. In a longer standing relationship, but professionally you had to not pursue it. Yeah. So I think, you know, which is, I think that's a real, that's a real scenario in, you know, with law enforcement and, you know, and not, I, I, not saying, I guess they can't, you can have, right.

[01:31:37] You see cops marrying each other and things like that. But I think, and you know, it is, it's a, it's a tough thing in the workplace and it doesn't always work out, you know, it doesn't, you know, so I think, I think they, they did a good job of, of capturing that. And, and, you know, like you said, you know, when you, you introduce something like that on a show, it's, you know, it's, it's, you don't want it to be soapy.

[01:32:02] You don't want it to, you know, be something where it's like taken away from the grittiness or, or anything of a show, but, you know, it's, it's, it's like real life with, in, in these, these squad rooms, you know, things happen, you know, things, you know, so I think it's, it was a nice little element to, to play with there. Yeah. Yeah. And really good, really good chemistry with the two of you. Yeah. She was fun. Callie was a lot of fun. Really good.

[01:32:29] And brought, she, every character brought an absolutely different person. There were no personalities in that ensemble cast that were similar. They were absolutely all completely different. And often bumped up against each other, partnered often with 180 degree opposites, you know, like Kyle and Andre. I mean, you couldn't have gotten more two opposite people together. Yeah. Interesting. Fantastic. One random question.

[01:32:56] Had you read the book by David Simon before joining the show or during the show? Cause, um, you know, we talk a lot about the writing on Humicide and obviously the book influenced so much. I don't know if you encountered the book, um, during your time on the show. Yeah. It was during the show is when I went through the book. I didn't know about the book before that. And I met David while after I had already started on the show, which he's just, man, he's incredible.

[01:33:23] And I got four, I was fortunate to work with him again on Treme. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Talking to him and, and, and, cause I mean, who, who better to give you insight on homicide than David? I mean, so yeah, it, it was, it was during the show is kind of when I started going through the book. Yeah. Yeah. And I know you mentioned obviously your police friend, did you get a chance to chat to any of the Baltimore detectives while you were on the show as well, who either featured in the book or were technical advisors? Yeah.

[01:33:52] I talked to, like, you know, I can't remember everybody now, but you know, did a lot of, you know, while I was down there trying to hang out as much as I could go on drive, not drive-bys, drive-bys. Ah, da, da, da, da, da, da. I got him. I got him. Right along. Right along. Right along. Right along. Drive-bys were for another movie. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

[01:34:20] So yeah, it goes as many ride-alongs as they can. And, and, you know, of course going to the range and, and just hanging out, like I said, in the squad room and Joe Genchi, you know, he's, he was my guy. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of other actors have, have in some ways applauded, but also were disgruntled by the fact that the, that the writers often brought in plot points that were similar to the actors' real lives. And so I did not know that, I mean, in the show, obviously you're

[01:34:50] having a custody battle and you have a son. And apparently at the time in your real life, there was, there was some challenging relationship episodes for you in real life. Did that, did that bother you? Did it inform the character more? Was it easier to, to perform that because you were going through it in real life? Or was it also, or disconcerting to have to go to work and like act that out? I mean, that, I always wondered that.

[01:35:17] It's funny. I, uh, I wasn't, I wasn't bothered. I wasn't bothered by it. I just remember going, how did they know? Like, how did, how did they, how did they, it wasn't like just a social media back then or something where you're posting stuff or, you know, and I don't remember like talking so much about it. Maybe I did. I mean, I, I, I mean, Faozone was a talker, so I might've been in that mindset of like, just, but I don't remember talking too much about it,

[01:35:45] but that's the, that's the amazing thing about like David Simon and Tom Fontana and all the writers there, you know, they, I mean, they, they are listening. They're aware. They're just constantly thinking, you know, I, I remember when I was like David Simon, you'd talk to David Simon and you have a small window for his attention. Really? You, you kind of have a small window.

[01:36:11] He's, he's there and he's looking at you and it's not in a bad way. It's the, the window's small because he's, he, you could see him going into thinking mode and creative, creating mode. And you're like, okay, I think he just wrote five episodes. I better walk away. I don't know what he just did in his head, but he just, he just wrote like a whole season or

[01:36:35] something. So yeah, I mean, it was, it's amazing. And, and Eric Overmeyer as well, same way, you know, are you same thing you talking to them and he's there and all of a sudden it's like, I should just leave now because they're creating right now, but they, I think they're so aware. And, and, and, and the thing about them is they, they love bringing in real situations, things that, that people can relate to people that things that people can understand.

[01:37:06] And so, you know, I just remember going, wow, this is, this is a lot like, like what I'm going through. How the heck did they get this in here? But it's in here. I guess I've, I got to play it. I got to do it, you know? And so it, it didn't bother me. I just, I just remember it was, so I was always kind of like, wow, how did, how did they know? Is there someone following me? Did they have me miked or something? And that was another situation where even in that storyline, that subplot of you and your life

[01:37:34] that you, you and your ex did not like each other. I mean, I think at some point in one of the scripts, you say we hate each other, but then through the custody battle, you actually come to a respect and an understanding for each other. So it really was cool where everybody got growth pretty much in that show. Everybody got, got character challenges that made them learn something about themselves or change. I mean, look at Kyle. I mean, Kyle ends up by the end,

[01:38:02] he's like a murderer by the end of the seventh season. Yeah, he went through so much. Talk about his ups and downs and Kyle's such a good actor. He's such a good actor. My gosh. What a great, great cast. And you came in the middle while there were still people, the original cast, much of the original cast was still there except for like John Pulido and, and Ned Beatty, but obviously Andre was still there. But then the new cast started coming in. Callie, I think came in right before you. And then Michael Michelle came in and then Isabella

[01:38:30] came back for your first episode. Isabella comes back from Paris for that, you know, the, the Beau Felton murder two-parter. So you really had, it was a constant mix of, of the ensemble cast, not even the same ensemble cast, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was just so fortunate to work with so many good, talented, talented people. And you mentioned Michael Michelle, Michael Michelle, she came in and wow, she brought a whole different

[01:38:59] perspective. She came in with a, don't even try to mess with me kind of, you know, you know, I'm coming in here and I'm, I'm female or whatever. And I'm, you know, I look this way and stuff, but you know, I will knock you out, you know, kind of thing. There's no, no questions with her. You know, she is, she came in and she was, she was tough. She was a tough cookie, you know? And she,

[01:39:23] I think she played that, she played it really well. Yeah. You know, Callie as Ballard, you know, she could be tough if she needed to be, but she was more, you know, maybe a little more prim kind of, kind of, I don't know if that's the right word, but she was, you know, she could be very girly, but also be very, you know, get, get the job done and very, very smart. And, you know, so everybody had, everybody had so many different things and it was such a unique unit and such a unique show.

[01:39:53] You know, there was nothing really like it before that, you know, and I think it, it, it kind of set the precedent for other shows and it was kind of like the benchmark for shows after that. Just so unique, different individuals, very diverse, you know, just really authentic and, and, and, and gritty and just, yeah, it was just amazing. Yeah, it was. Do you have any memories of

[01:40:20] the movie? Cause obviously some of the original cast came back for the movie. I don't know if you had a chance to interact with anyone like John Pulito or Daniel Baldwin or anybody like that. Yeah, that was, that was pretty wild. And, and, and, and Ned Beatty, that was so great. I remember at the time, you know, I had, I don't know how long after I had already finished Homicide, it was that, you know, we came back to do the movie. I was working on something else, you know, this is when I was a

[01:40:48] lot younger, just kind of going from job to job, you know, maybe not taking it in as much as I, I wish I, I did different jobs, but I was kind of just going from job to job and, and I was working on some other job at the time in, in Canada. And so I had to come down to film the scenes for Homicide, the movie and go back. So that's why I had that look. I had a certain look in the movie.

[01:41:16] I think I did. You were, you were more quaffed at that point. Yeah. I had to get a beer goatee and I, I think my, I had blonde highlights in my hair, but so they darkened it, like they darkened it for Homicide, but it couldn't be permanent because I had to go back to the other thing I was doing and have the blonde highlights. But yeah, so it was, I just thought it was so great to come back and see everybody and, and, and work with

[01:41:43] everyone again. And, and it was, it was pretty wild. That was, and Giancarlo Esposito, that he was very heavy in that because of the, the outfit being killed or his character being killed. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. Oh no. Yeah. He's just, he's so terrific when he came on the show. That's another person that came on the show. Yeah. Giancarlo. After you, who was just, yeah. He came in with so much that his,

[01:42:12] having to prove himself and you know, that he's his own, he's his own man, you know? So good. You know, so that, that was, yeah. Such a great cast. Just incredible, incredible cast. Yeah. And I was just thinking of him going off to do Breaking Bad as Gus Fring. I mean, what a character. Before that, all the Spike Lee movies. And the Spike Lee movies. Yeah. Yeah. And the Mandalorian. He's in the Mandalorian as well. Oh yes. Oh really?

[01:42:40] He is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, really cool. Really cool. Spoiler. Yes. So, um, many have said the, many people we've interviewed have said that homicide was like one of the best experiences of their career. I mean, where, where does homicide fit for you and your career? How do you feel about it when you look back on the show? Yeah. It's definitely up there. It's, it's, it's, it's up there. Yeah. It was, it was the first, that was the first network show that I did. I believe as a regular.

[01:43:10] I think so. I mean, I guest starred, I think on a bunch of shows before that, but as a regular, that was, that was my first network show. So, you know, the experience I got from that was just incredible and has stayed with me to this day, you know, and I learned so much and, and being able to learn and work with so many great actors on the show just enhanced me and, and gave me stuff to be able to put in my toolbox, you know, so it was an incredible time. It was

[01:43:40] such a unique show and, and, you know, I, I tried to, I tried to enjoy it as much as I could, you know, with, with things that are going on in my own life. And, you know, you always look back, could I, could I, could I have been involved a little more and just really, really understanding where I'm at? Cause the truth is, as you know, in life, you don't really understand the significant moments that are happening in your life until later when you look back, if only you could really,

[01:44:08] really recognize it as it's happening. That's, that's where the magic is at if you can. So true. So there, there was some of that I was able to recognize, but, you know, looking back, it's just, wow, that was such a moment, momentous time. So it's, it's definitely, it's definitely up there. Yeah. I think we recognize at the time how much fun it was and how different it was, but, but, you know, over the course of the years, seeing not many things hold a candle to it as far as,

[01:44:38] as far as network series television, you really look back and go, wow, we really pulled something off. But I think we also really appreciated, like you could not ignore the talent, you know, on, you know, on camera and the talent behind the camera. I mean, I think we, we knew that at the time too, but yeah, I think it's really sinking in now when you look at it.

[01:45:01] Yeah. You miss like, you know, for a long time, we had, we had talked about, have, have you experienced the swanking and that, that type of camera style, you know, and everything on, on other shows. And, and I, I never did. And you miss it because you, sometimes you work on some other shows and it doesn't mean the other shows aren't good as well, but there's just different ways they go about it. And you, you, you might need to stick solidly to certain words or, or, or paragraphs. And,

[01:45:31] you know, sometimes they, they, on other shows, they, they already have, before you walk into rehearse, they already have it choreographed as to where they want you to stand, where they want you to deliver your line or move here, move there, which, you know, as, as an actor, our job, I look at it like my job is to, you know, the director has his lane, writer has his lane, sound has his, everyone has their own lane. And my lane as an actor is to take

[01:45:57] the words, take the direction and try to make it work as best as I can and trust that they're getting what they want and are seeing what, what they want. And it's a, it's a team effort, right? But we each have, have a thing to do. So what I missed was just the looseness of when we'd be filming

[01:46:21] to just do something, you know, off the cuff, you know, you might, you might want to grab something off of a desk, a statue and hold it in your hand, or, you know, maybe delivered a line with an added something to it, or even just anything just, and, and on homicide, you had the freedom to really do that, you know, and that, that might be a Tom Fontana stable, you know, uh, kind of thing,

[01:46:50] because on, on, on Oz, it was the same kind of thing. I've had the great fortune of working with, with him on a few things. And we did a pilot actually that ended up not going, but it was called ocean drive or good guys, bad guys, something like that. But, you know, it's just the looseness of being able to just be organic and just let what, what happens, what you feel in a

[01:47:15] moment. You know, I never got, I never really felt that again on, on any other show. Right. I was never on, I don't think any other show where there were no marks for the actors. Every once in a while we do one for Yafit, Yafit would say, I need a mark here. But, but generally you guys had the freedom to, to actually do the scene differently because the scene is blocked, but there's light everywhere for you to work within. So you didn't have to hit a mark to hit

[01:47:44] your key light, you know, or your side light, your back light, whatever. But yeah, just that, no marks, I think was, was an amazing. Yeah. Sort of a crazy, amazing thing. Have you had a chance to revisit the show, especially since they restored it? I don't know if you have any sort of thoughts on what the show looks like now and, and so on. I haven't seen the show in a long time. Yeah. I haven't seen it in a long time. I saw that.

[01:48:12] I think recently it, it, it's on Netflix now, I think. It's on Peacock. Peacock. Peacock, yeah. Which is what the major digital restoration is. And, you know, Chris, I never looked to see if it's also on Tubi and now also on Charge TV. Oh, okay. And I'm assuming, but maybe, do they also have the digital restoration? Are they all? I would assume, I would assume they do. You would assume they would sort of have to, but in any case, it's out there in a number

[01:48:42] of places now where it literally never was before except on DVD. Yeah. In widescreen. Yeah. 69. Well, that's great. It's, it's, it's a show that, you know, like, as we mentioned, David Simon wrote his book, the show itself, Homicide is like a visual novel, you know? So I think it's, for many people to be able to, you know, see it now and watch it now, it's, you know, it's like

[01:49:10] picking up a vintage, you know, great novel and being able to see it and play out, you know? So I think it's, it's great. It's like, it's like The Wire. My son and I started rewatching The Wire, you know, cause he was, he was much younger, you know? So now he's watching it now, you know? So I might, I have to have him watch Homicides. You should, you should. Yeah. Yeah. He can see himself in the, in the pictures and some of the episodes. Exactly. Would he be wanting royalties at that point?

[01:49:40] Exactly. He's like, there I am. Right, right. So where's my coin? At least I hope he gets an IMDB credit for that. Right. Yes. Now I do have a random question, a bit left field, um, about Baltimore itself. So Baltimore's obviously famous for food. And I was wondering if you had any like food memories or memories or particular places you used to like to hang out in your spare time in Baltimore, because it is quite the place.

[01:50:03] Oh my gosh. Well, let's see. Right across the street from where we would film was Patrick's, right? Is it Patrick's? Yeah. Cooper's. Cooper's. It was owned by Patrick. Owned by Patrick. That's right. Cooper's owned by Patrick. That was a, that was a staple. That's, that's where we would go and hang out all the time. I was probably hung out there a little too much. Yeah. It's a good place.

[01:50:31] I had, I had some nights there, but I remember going there and the food I would have, my big thing was potato. He had potato skins or pieces of like with the bacon on top and the cheese. Ooh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That and some beer there. Oh man. Nice. That was, that was the spot. I, I, it's a good thing I was working. I wasn't working. I had some

[01:50:58] moments where I kind of slacked on a working out and you could see Falzone going in. Falzone went maybe a little bit of chunky to back to thin. I don't know. We've got to see. But fortunately I was working out because I was eating potato skins way too late at night and drinking way too late at night. But that was, that was such a great, great place to hang out. Oh, cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Have you been back to Baltimore since at all? It's been a while. It's been a while.

[01:51:25] Because the, the murder board's in Cooper's now. It's in Cooper's. One of them. One of them. Yeah. Yeah. Allegedly there's more than one, but yes. Yeah. We go to Cooper's at some point. It's on the stairwell. Yeah. Oh, wow. But we, but we realized, Chris realized because Kellerman's name is up top among the detectives that it would have been from later seasons. And then Sunil, who was Tom Fontana's assistant in New York said there's one in New York. So we're sort of trying to

[01:51:52] nail down like where are the original ones? Was there a different one every season? Are there more flying around out there? Was it just those two? Oh, wow. Yeah. It's still there. Props guys think there was just one, but I suspect it came from Fallen Heroes when the shootout happened in the squad room. And then for whatever reason, it was taken out, but I don't know for sure. But it's, but it's there. If you go up the stairs, it's there. Oh, wow. I owe it to you. So I have a question for you. I have a random question for you. So in that scene where you're

[01:52:21] singing in the bar with Charles Durning, trying to get Charles Durning to sing, and you start singing if you think I'm sexy, but your, your mannerisms are very Elvis.

[01:52:58] Oh, really? I don't think you padded yourself. Yeah. I don't, it was the later Elvis, but I don't think you padded yourself up. So do you have an Elvis, are you an Elvis fan? Fixation? I'm a huge Elvis fan. Huge Elvis fan. My, my, uh, the reason why I'm a big Elvis fan is because my dad, he's a big Elvis fan, you know? And to this day, my dad still, the hair he has, he wears it like, like Elvis. Nice. But when I, I remember as a kid, I was, I think

[01:53:26] I was like six years old when Elvis died. And I remember seeing it on the TV. It was 77. I think it was. And I was six years old. And I remember seeing it on the, on the TV. Like, you know, it was, you know, everything was just reporting about Elvis. And I only, I only knew who Elvis was because of my dad. So it's not like I even know he was a singer. And I remember my dad came home. I went running to my dad, go, dad, dad, Elvis died, Elvis died. And my dad was really sad. And it was just like, he's like, I know, I know. So that's

[01:53:56] why I'm a big Elvis fan. And recently I went to Graceland for the first time with my son. Oh yeah. That was just an amazing trip. But yeah. So that party that you're talking about, that's right. I went, I don't know if I should say it. Did you rent the costume or to get wardrobe to get it for you? It was my friend, my friend's costume that he had, his Halloween costume. He let me borrow it. Because it was a Halloween party.

[01:54:22] And he's a diehard Elvis fan. He was like, you better bring this back to me. Not ripped, no stains, no whatever. And honestly, I don't know if I did that, but I... Yeah, that was a hell of a party. I wouldn't be surprised if it was ripped and stained and many other things. This is back in the day. So I, you know, I might've been under the influence of something. I'm not going to say exactly what, but I might've been under the influence of something,

[01:54:46] which gave me the ability to do such a great Elvis performance. Absolutely. All night. And I just remember, I think, didn't I win like third place or something? It was a contest. I took like third place. Oh, was there a contest? It sounds like you should have won first place, but... Did the Viking win? My brother, who was six, seven, dressed up as a Viking and then had three inch lips. So he was like seven feet tall. So I forgot there was a... It was a contest.

[01:55:17] I took third place. Who won this contest? I wonder who it was. Probably my brother won every... I think it was the Viking. Yeah. Yeah. He won every, literally every costume contest. Oh, wow. He won a hearse. He won trips to Acapulco. He won trips to... Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. That was so much fun. He was scary. I think in that scene... Yeah, that's funny. ...when I was singing, I probably added that Elvis... Yeah. ...little thing to it. You had the Elvis moves going on and it just made me, it triggered that memory for me, which is funny.

[01:55:47] Yeah. Yeah. Charles Durning looked very shocked in that scene. I mean, I didn't know how much that was acting and how much that was real, but it was... Yeah. Yeah. I think what he was thinking was, can this scene be over, please? Can it be over, please? Were you wanting more takes? Stop dancing. Yeah. Just one more. That's a great episode. It is. Finnegan's awake. Yeah. Get your son to watch. Start with the episode that you started on, because that is a great intro to your character.

[01:56:16] And it's also that two-parter with Bo's murder is just the great... It's just great homicide. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any other things you'd want to talk about that's important to you at all? I'm just, you know, working on things. Things are different now. You know, I'm kind of, you know, just looking for projects now that I really feel passionate about, you know, just something, things that I really want to, you know, just get into. And, you know, years ago I was, which is not a bad thing.

[01:56:45] I mean, I was kind of going from job to job to job to job. Now I'm just, you know, I'm at a point now where fortunately, you know, I want to just be able to do the things I really, really want to do and just focus on that. But I've had, I've been so fortunate to work with, what, like 35 years now? You know, to, to have gone from a kid standing on a line, a cattle call in New York, you know,

[01:57:12] not even knowing I'm going to have a career in acting, you know, to 35 years later and all the people that I was fortunate to work with, directors, writers, producers, crew, actors. It's, I've been really, really, really, truly fortunate, you know? And, you know, so I just, I'm just so thankful for that. And your mom was right. She was. Everybody listen to your mothers, they're often right.

[01:57:42] Exactly. Exactly. Yes, she was. Fantastic. Well, no, John, thank you so much. Is there anything else? That was really fun. Anything else I want to add about homicide or anything before we wrap up? Or are you happy? Because I think we've done, we've covered a lot there. It's been really great. Yeah. No, just homicide was such an amazing time. It was such a great show to be a part of. I know we were hoping for another season. I think we, I remember, didn't we have like a fundraiser where we were all show?

[01:58:11] I think I played the piano and I don't know. I don't know what I did. Oh my gosh. But I think we had like. Oh, was there one at center stage? You mean the one they had at center stage? Yeah, wasn't it like a talent, a talent show? Yes, yes. What? Yeah. See, and I think I missed that. Yeah, it was like a talent show where each one had to do something. Yes. And I don't know how I missed that. I brought a piano. I swear I could play a lot better than I actually could. And I played or I sang something, I don't know. And everybody did something.

[01:58:40] Someone did a magic show. Maybe Belzer did comedy. I don't know, something. And I think it was to, I don't know if it was a fundraiser or something like that. But. It might have been for just a local. Maybe that was a local fundraiser. It's called like a night with Homicide or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether I don't remember it or whether I just wasn't there. I don't. Yeah, I don't. But I know it. You're right. It happened. Yeah. And it was at center stage uptown.

[01:59:06] Because I remember at that fundraiser, we were all just talking like the cast and I think Lewis, Tony Lewis and I and Callie were talking about, you know, we might get another season or we're hoping for another season or it was, there was a potential there was going to be. At one moment, it seemed like there was going to be an eighth season, I think. Wow. We never knew. But it did happen. Season to season. You know, and so it would have been interesting to see, you know, at least with another season,

[01:59:36] what would have happened. But I think, look, seven seasons of such an intricate show with such detail and grit and drama and just fun and, you know, it was just mixed with so many different things. It was such a great show to be a part of. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Cool. Cool. Well, thank you, John. Thank you so much. That's been awesome. That was fun.

[02:00:06] That was really fun. Thank you so much for spending so much time with us. You got it. You got it. Thanks for having me. So that was John. And I really, really enjoyed that one.

[02:00:33] And I will just say off the bat, one of the funniest things in the opening where his mother recommended he take up acting as a backup career from his wanting to be a boxer. And as we were saying in the episode, it's like turning to acting as your backup career is, yeah, it doesn't work out for a lot of people. But for John, he did incredibly well. So, you know, so thank you to his mother. Let me pick the film industry as a backup plan. Yeah.

[02:01:03] Yeah. Not a lot of parents would go there, but, you know, kudos to mom. I love moms that are, you know, supportive and recognize those things in their kids. And once again, I'll say it, as I have said a million times, love the origin story and how often things hinge on one tiny thing. And it's not a tiny thing. If he had won the New Jersey Golden Gloves boxing competition, he would have probably gone into a career in boxing.

[02:01:32] Unfortunately, he was a very successful fighter, but it was interesting that he said he didn't really think of himself that way because he lost the Golden Gloves competition. But he, so he did have acting, ends up with acting to fall back on and became obviously very successful and prolific in his work. He's had an amazing career. He's done so many things. I mean, I remember you off there, we were talking about the Pacific because that's a big World War II show.

[02:02:01] And he did that after Homicide, didn't he? I think. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And then he talked a bit about when we were chatting about Charles Durning, because Charles Durning was a World War II veteran. And, you know, and they obviously sort of bonded over that topic. So, yeah, really interesting. Interesting. And when you think about some of his, the early things he did, like Selena, which is a highly recorded film. He was very young when he did that. Yeah.

[02:02:29] And it's like the breakout for Jennifer Lopez, I think, that film, if I remember correctly. And then Primal Fear, which was also a big film with Richard Gere and with Andre, to have worked with Andre prior to Homicide. Just really, a really interesting career path, a career path for him, for sure. And, you know, kudos that he didn't pick boxing. That boxing didn't pick him, I guess, is more the way it goes. Yeah.

[02:02:57] But, yeah, also, one thing that struck me while he was talking was how much he appreciated at the time, but also appreciates even more now, the caliber of the talent on the show. Not just the actors, but the writing, producing, the crew, everybody.

[02:03:21] And also, I loved his comments about Baltimore being a star, being a character. And other people have, other actors have mentioned that. And other, you know, other, the creators have mentioned that Baltimore was just a terrific, not just a backdrop, but a terrific character in the show. Really part of the real essence of the show. And he really appreciated that at the time.

[02:03:51] Also just enjoyed his thinking back to his first scene when he's introduced to the show, his first scene with Melissa. Yeah, Melissa. Yeah. Such a good scene. Really funny stuff. And how the, yeah, so that bottle opening that he does with his teeth might well have been improvised. He couldn't quite remember. He thinks it was improvised and also apparently because it was irritating Melissa Leo and getting a reaction out of it. They thought that this is definitely the way to approach that scene. Right.

[02:04:20] Because he was, as far as the actors go, he was irritating the character. Yeah. Irritating her character as well. Indeed. And obviously for his character as well, he had a very strong entrance, bit like we were saying with Tony Lewis as well. They had to hold their own against these very formidable, established characters. And, you know, John mentioned how like Falzone was not entering the squad as a rookie like Carl Sekel's character, but as another experienced sort of alpha detective who was transferring

[02:04:49] over from being the head of the auto squad into homicide. So it kind of gave him a real energy. And obviously then in season six, he goes toe to toe with Kellerman over the Luther Mahoney shooting. And that really becomes the kind of big crux of season six really is the conflict between those two and where that leads to at the end of season six. Yeah. And that conflict was really interesting because I think I was trying to push him into saying, you know, and he did a little bit, but into saying how intimidating Yafit was or how intimidating

[02:05:17] it was to act against Andre. But he actually pulled out, he pulled out Reed because obviously that was a really intense relationship between the two of them as he's having to investigate as John's character is having, as Falzone is having to investigate Kellerman's character and, and, and what he bumped up against

[02:05:44] there, but also feeling the heat in Reed's acting. And he says something like Reed was really locked in to the Kellerman, Kellerman character. So much so that John said that at some points he was worried that, that he didn't like, that, that, that Reed didn't like John. And that's why the scenes were so intense, but it was just because Reed was really finding

[02:06:12] the depths of that, of that character and his anger. And he was also incredibly conflicted, but also just really at some points going off the deep end. Yeah. That's a very dark season. Defending himself. For Kellerman, that's a very dark season because in his eyes, everybody sort of turned their back on him and he, and he sort of slowly, yeah, just sort of goes down this very dark path. I always remember there's a scene, I can't remember which episode it is, where he poses next to a

[02:06:38] dead body as the crime scene photographer kind of taking pictures and he gets a kind of snap for his own, own records. And I always remember that as like the pivotal moment of Kellerman's sort of darkness. Yeah. And it's, and the other thing that's so complex about that whole storyline is that obviously everybody that's watched the show over time knows just what a heinous character Luther

[02:07:04] Mahoney was and how many people his organization had killed. So it's understandable why Kellerman would think, even though Luther had the gun down, why Kellerman would really feel in his gut, in his heart, that that was a good shooting because, you know,

[02:07:25] he had just beat up Lewis and taken his gun and had already had, had, had caused like havoc in Baltimore, killing off the people that he thought, you know, had, had, had brought in the fake drugs. And you could understand why just that one gesture, he's got the gun up, he's got it down. And when it's down, it's not a good shooting.

[02:07:52] Nevertheless, what came behind that, you sort of understand why, why Kellerman felt that way, why he felt it was a good shooting. Yeah. And it's interesting as well, just thinking about the story, there's a sort of slight hypocrisy with Lewis because later in that season when Lewis gets suspended, it's kind of hinted at that he's going around killing off Mahoney's men.

[02:08:17] It's never explicitly said, but it's kind of implied yet Lewis has a real problem with Kellerman. And I'm like, and I, I've, yeah, I find that quite complicated. Yeah. And they never sort of explain, like, was he just, were there some machinations that Lewis is doing behind the scenes, that Meldrick's doing behind the scenes to have those murders occur? Or is he actually tracking and assassinating people? It's never made clear. Yeah.

[02:08:44] That's a, we have to have Tom back on again and ask him like, what, what, what was the, what were their thoughts or was it ambiguous to them? And they wanted it ambiguous to the audience. Yeah. I'd love to, love to know more about that. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of that, that, which made everything, which made so many of the characters and the storylines really interesting because there was almost, and there certainly were pat endings

[02:09:09] to something, but there was almost nothing pat in the storylines in the show. Well, everybody, even when they were wrong, they had an element where they were right. And that's what made it so interesting. Mm-hmm. And life, I mean, I've got this point where I've, I've listened to so many interviews, done so many interviews. I can't remember who said it, but somebody, I haven't said this about homicide or something else. But compelling drama sometimes is really interesting when everybody has a point rather than like,

[02:09:39] which has become more popular where it's sort of become this thing where a certain person's right and everybody else is sort of wrong. And there's a lot more of that in writing these days. And I think what makes homicide so interesting is like everybody, even when they're wrong, has an element of, you know, truth about what they're saying. And it's, that's what makes it so difficult sometimes. And I think some of the storylines that, that, that hit the racial and social issues where there are people on both sides of the fence and, and you understand where they're coming

[02:10:08] from and John, John talked about that in, in the episode with Charles Durning. Right. With Charles Durning. What's the name of that episode? That is Finnegan's Wake. Yeah. So in Finnegan's Wake. In Finnegan's Wake. Where, you know, the whole idea that he's, he's supporting and, and, and sort of looking at, at the Charles Durning character as a father figure and, and the relationship seems to be growing.

[02:10:36] And then Charles Durning, you know, at the end sort of, you know, shows his racist colors and racist attitudes, not just about black people while Meldrick is in the room who then chooses to leave, but then also about, you know, he makes a really awful comment to, to John's character, Paul Falzone at the very end. Of course they'd all been drinking and everything, but, but John really tried to talk about, you know, you don't want to excuse, you don't want to excuse that.

[02:11:05] But I think, I think the show was really good at showing like the humanity of Charles Durning's character, his frustration. He's getting old, you know, he's got this young gun with him. And like, what are all these like ethnic people doing in the homicides unit when it was only Irish Catholics before, right? All the Irish cops. And how much things have changed and that some people just can't absorb change well.

[02:11:33] And, you know, and John talked and John addressed that in talking about how you could understand the complexity of that character, even though, you know, those comments were wrong. There was more depth. There was more depth there. And a sadness to it as well, because obviously Falzone was sort of respected that older detective to some extent still sort of did because later on, when it's this thing about the press conference and whether he should be invited or not.

[02:12:00] And Falzone says, you know, he earned, you know, it was his case. He should do it or something to that effect. But it's a very sad scene because it's in that moment when Charles Durning's character kind of turns on Falzone. It's a little bit tragic in some ways. It's, yeah, it's, it's sad. When you, when somebody you admire or respect then says something terrible, you're like, oh my goodness, that's completely changed how I feel about you now. And I've seen, I've been in situations like that with people sometimes. You're like, oh my goodness. Why?

[02:12:29] Jaw-dropping, jaw-dropping moments. And it's sort of where you can't undo it in some ways. It's painful and very real, very real. You know, I've had that with family members just being transparent, you know, just the, yeah. And you're just like, wow. Yes. You know. It's, it's difficult, isn't it? Because yeah, understand it. Like I was saying earlier, like, you know, everybody sort of has a, their reason. I think I put it as everybody is right in some ways. Maybe that's the wrong way to put it, but yeah, everybody has a sort of point of view and

[02:12:56] they're coming from somewhere and it's good to understand it, but it's difficult when it crosses over into like territory of racial hatred or gender hatred or whatever. That, that, how do we deal with that? And when it becomes personal. Yeah. And there's, there's no, you know, there's no satisfactory answers to that. There are some answers that, you know, but, but it's, yeah, it's complicated, isn't it? And I think the way John described it was, yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah.

[02:13:25] I think there was a ton of things behind those comments, especially the comment to, to John that, you know, you can sort of think about it once again. And John was very clear at saying this a couple of times, not an excuse. No. But, you know, those racial comments from, from Charles Durning, especially the one to, to John, were not about John, right? They're not about John.

[02:13:52] They're about, they're all about what Charles Durning's character is experiencing in, in reliving being a detective and reliving being a young detective and reliving this murder and reliving and, and then facing all of the changes that he's not a part of. Yeah. And facing what his present is, which is an old guy who can barely walk up the steps and barely get around.

[02:14:19] And so, you know, some of it becomes that it's, it's about that person's internal anger, basically. And also he's being confronted with an exception to the rule he's created for himself, because Falzon is a good detective. And I'm sure over the episode, he respects him, but then he has this sort of generalization, this historical way of seeing things, which he's in an internal conflict about, which because, yeah, I've, I've seen this in people, you know, and, and, and like, it's where they're

[02:14:48] not dealing with the person in front of them. Right. They're, they're just dealing with this sort of generalization. And then suddenly they meet somebody who's the complete opposite of what the generalization is. And they suddenly see the human being in front of them and people deal that in different ways. And I guess with Charles Durning's character, that's how his character sort of deals with it. But, but. Right. How dare you not fit my stereotype? Yeah. Yeah. How dare you not be bad at what you do? Or how dare you not be irresponsible? Or how dare you not be whatever? Yeah. And throw some alcohol in the mix.

[02:15:18] Well, yeah, yeah. Wait, what do you mean? What do you mean? You're not that person. You're not that. Yeah. And a bit of homophobia too. There's that bit that we talk about the dancing scene, which has this whole brilliant story about Elvis. But I'm in that, in that scene earlier as well, like Charles Durning's character's masculinity suddenly threatened by foul zone doing that dance. And if you call me sexy, whatever the song is. Yes. There's a Rod Stewart song and the lyrics suddenly offend Charles Durning and his masculinity is under threat.

[02:15:48] It's quite, it's so many things going on in that scene. You've got, you know, homophobia, racism, you've got historical stuff, so many things going on. And Elvis. And Elvis. He's always around. He's always around. It's only like three to five minutes of the whole episode, isn't it? It's like, so much goes on. And Steve Buscemi directing. Yeah. Steve Buscemi directing. Oh my goodness. Hello, Steve Buscemi. Anybody out there, I have got to, I'm trying to, I'm getting in touch with more people and you are one of them. Yeah.

[02:16:16] If you're listening, we would love to have you on. We need to get him on. Yeah. If he's out there listening or if anybody knows him, he's listening. And also it was interesting too, many, many of the actors have commented on the freedom, the way the show was produced, gave to them, especially in the way that we shot it, that there were no marks, that there was, you know, rehearsals for, to see where people are, but

[02:16:43] not any strict guidance on you have to do this. You did not have to do the scene the same way every time we did a take, which is really unusual for television production or film production. It's like, you know, you've got the whole room lit or whatever for people moving and reacting and acting in certain spaces. Yeah. And that was not the case on this show. And also I love that.

[02:17:07] And a number of the actors have commented that even if the scene was all about, let's say it was all about Richard Belzer's character and, and, and the last line even maybe is, is, is, is Munch talking. But sometimes you could get the tell from at this point when John was, came onto the show, it was Alex Zakrzewski who was the cameraman.

[02:17:33] But John before that, you know, the tell was if they, if they were looking around the room with their other eye, that wasn't in the eyepiece, you better be ready. Yeah. And you better be ready even if you don't see the tell, because you never knew when any, you know, called, he talked about the shvenking. Yes. And what was the shvenking? Yeah. Well, that's what Alex called it. Cause Alex is a Polish cameraman of Polish descent. Right. And so shvenking instead of swinging. So it means I'm swinging over that way.

[02:18:03] Right. So I'm going to, I'm shvenking. We're doing some more shvenking over there. And that, and that I love that idea that it keeps the actors on their toes and that they have to act in the scene. They have to stay in scene with what's happening, even if they're not on camera. Yeah. Because they never know when they will be. And that John, I think mentioned sometimes the best end to those scenes was not a close

[02:18:33] up on the person who had the last line, but a close up on the reaction of the other actors in the scene or one of the other actors in the scene. And that, that those buttons at the end of the scene sometimes were more interesting by doing it in an untraditional way. And that John really liked that. And he said he hasn't really experienced that anywhere else. No, no. It's a very, especially in television.

[02:18:58] I think that's quite rare because of the problem with TV is, is always this constant schedule and getting things done. You know, for a lot of network television, it was like seven days, wasn't it? To do an episode. I think it's extended now to like 14 or something for the high end prestige shows. But the thing is, even with those prestige shows, a lot of those now are all about the camera work. They're all about the very beautiful cinematography that takes hours to set up so the camera can do a feature film, kind of move on a technocrane.

[02:19:27] And then the actors say the right line, the right moment as the camera goes into a close up. I mean, it's come very technical and a lot of waiting, I think. And how fast we shot in that style. But it really encompassed the energy and the edgy, you know, word overused, gritty nature

[02:19:51] of the show to have it be, you know, you couldn't have expectations about what was going to happen next, which I think made the drama, you know, even more interesting. And along with the idea of the handheld camera and the shrinking, I loved, I loved that he talked about the focus pulling.

[02:20:14] You know, I love it when actors recognize what the crew is doing all around them to make this happen. And that sometimes when Alex or Jean was shvenking or swinging around the room, the camera assistant, whether it was Boots or whether it was Dave, you know, is on, has a focus extension on one side of the camera.

[02:20:42] Normally you're standing, if you're looking out, you're standing on the left side of the camera. But if you're in a space where he swings around and there's no room for you on that side, they would duck under the camera while he's swinging. And the focus extension was long enough. Sometimes we would put two together or maybe three. The whip. The whip. Yeah. The focus extension, also known as the whip, which is what really makes sense when they're whipping the camera around.

[02:21:10] So they would duck under the camera as the cameraman swinging the camera and come up on the other side while they're still focusing the camera. I mean, and I loved it that, that John pulled out that, that very specific thing. And for John, because that's at the point where Alex was the cameraman, that would have been Dave ducking under the camera. But also Boots also had to do the same thing with John.

[02:21:34] But I love that he recognized how hard the crew worked because, you know, I've been on sets where crew people go, no, they're not. I can't do that or cut or I fucked it up. And it's, you know, let's bust a take. And that did not happen. That almost never happened on the show where anybody in the crew ever busted a take. I mean, you know, unless we were laughing or something in the background.

[02:21:59] But yeah, that just shows you the dedication of a crew that like jumps to it and deals with how things, it was a never changing scenario on that show and how well, and how well they performed in that situation. Yeah. And there's one other thing that John said, I stood up for me was how he described the squad room as the heart of the series. Yes.

[02:22:26] Because of the constant movement, the banter, the overlapping conversations between the detectives. And he's spot on. It's so true. It really is the heart of the show. Yeah. And then after he said that, the heart of the show was the sets and working in the squad room. He said, but the biggest part of the show was Baltimore. And it was such a character in and of itself. It was the main character. I thought that was pretty cool. Yeah.

[02:22:51] And that all of that gave it a unique look, that all of those things together gave the show a look that I don't think, and I think he said that, has not been duplicated. No, no. Because a lot of shows film somewhere else faking to be somewhere else, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's, yeah, Baltimore was, it was very lucky. Because yeah, NYPD Blue is the competitor show. It was filmed in Los Angeles with just second unit stuff in New York. So, yeah, it's, it's.

[02:23:21] Which, one good thing about the Dick Wolf shows, like Law and Order, they're actually filmed in New York or Chicago. Mm-hmm. So I, yeah, it's a very important thing, I think, if one can achieve that. But there we go. Yeah. And also fun that, you know, people are familiar with New York from seeing it in so many films and television shows. People were not, were not familiar with Baltimore as a, you know, as a location. And, and as a very intimate location.

[02:23:50] I mean, we were not, we were not making anything pretty back then. And, and intimately going into, you know, any neighborhood, whether it was, you know, north of the city and, you know, where all the mansions are or, you know, in, you know, in West Baltimore where things are really tough. I also loved, you know, that he, he, he, he mentioned more than once, like, did they, were they following me around? How did they know that we didn't have social media then? How did they know what was going on in my life?

[02:24:18] A number of the actors have said, I think Danny mentioned it, a couple other people have mentioned, that they used things from the actors' lives in their characters' makeup. And, and, and, and certainly the storyline for John, you know, had some similar aspects to his life. And I also loved that he, you know, he loved, he talked about working with the kids and why, and it made him think about his own son at the time.

[02:24:48] Yeah. Yeah. No, that's brilliant. Now, I was fascinated by his, that part, the Halloween party in Dressed as Elvis. I was wondering if there was any point of view you can give us on all of this, because that was really interesting. Well, I was a, let's say, I had a bit of a crush on John at the time. I'm sure many people, many people, women on this show did. I also am a huge Elvis fan. John.

[02:25:16] So when he showed up as Elvis to that party, it was like a double whammy. It's like, oh my God, it's John as Elvis. So any insight, he was doing all the moves for sure. I do remember that. And it was a light blue, like a powder blue jumpsuit with a cape. So he had the whole dramatic look going on there. But that was a shout out to my friend Lulu, who is an amazing party giver.

[02:25:41] And that was in one of those big old, what had been either an industrial building, factory, or a warehouse. Oh, cool. So it had all this like big old spaces in it. And she had an apartment up on the, I mean, the second or third floor. It also was home to a group of Baltimore artists and actors who also gave concerts and stuff there.

[02:26:08] And so the party was in this giant space in this big warehouse building. And it was a Halloween party. I believe it was on November 1st. So right after Halloween night, and it was, you know, cast, crew, everybody was there. It was really fun. I was dressed as an urban vampire. So a couple of the guys remember, I was going around biting people on the neck.

[02:26:38] And some of them commented, I won't name names, about how much they liked it. Oh, that'll get you seen by HR this day and age. Both inviting people and their reaction to it. Exactly. I also had a chrome martini shaker with martinis in it over my shoulder. And I was going around pouring martinis for people. So it was terrific. Terrific fun with the actors and the crew and lots of great music.

[02:27:08] And John was just funny. He laid it on. He laid it on the Elvis act for that. That was a lot of fun, too. And shout out to my brother, who John remembered. He's like, I think the Viking one. Yeah. Yeah. That was my giant brother winning another Halloween costume contest. Brilliant. Cool. But yeah. And just a few other comments. You know, interesting him talking about Larry and Leslie Libman, who was a team of directors,

[02:27:37] which I had never seen before or since. And he said he had never seen a team, which was cool. And that he really loved doing the crossover episodes with the Dick Wolf people, which then, of course, got him into the Dick Wolf franchise for sure. Sure.

[02:27:54] And then also his enjoying working with Jerry Orbach and Sam Waterston, like this, like, really amazing old school TV actors who, as a young actor, he got to be with. Which I think, you know, well, he said how much he enjoyed that and how much he revered them and being able to work with them. Yeah. Yeah.

[02:28:17] And I also love the part we talked about where how his character figures out who are the Italians that are pretending to be from Connecticut. That was good. That was funny. And I did want to go back and talk about real quick, you know, like what luck that he had a friend who was a police detective in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah. Who he got to go run around with. Yeah. You know, and see some things as a cop.

[02:28:46] And also to not completely base, but to base some of his character on his friend. Was it Joe? What was his last name? Joe Genchi. Genchi. Joe Genchi. Yeah. On Joe's sort of the personification of a tough police detective. Mm-hmm. I thought that was cool. And what a great thing to have as a young actor, to have that childhood friend who just happens to sort of fit into that slot for you. Yeah. Very lucky.

[02:29:16] That was very cool. Very cool. And then the fun revelations about David Simon, talking to David Simon and then realizing his eyes go sort of funny and you realize he's like writing an entire season while he's talking to you. And then he'd worked with Diamond, sorry, with David again on Treme. Yes. On Treme. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of great connections. Lots of great connections there. I thought it was a really great interview. Really enjoyed that. And thank you again to John for your time on the show. Really, really appreciate it.

[02:29:46] Yeah. Thanks, John. Really terrific. Really fun. And candid. And I think the thing I really love about doing these interviews is that how thoughtful people are. You know, they're not just skimming over and giving us superficial answers about how much they love things or how much, you know, they're being very thoughtful about it.

[02:30:05] And I think the reason for that is because the show was so influential, not just in the greater television world, but so influential in their own careers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. And usually for a few people at the beginning of their career, too. So, especially for John and to some extent. And, you know, Tony Lewis as well. So, yeah. Yeah. Good stuff. Great stuff. Thank you, John. That was terrific. Yeah.

[02:30:34] And I did want to mention, we mentioned Cooper's Tavern so many times where we all hung out and John really went deep on how much he loved going over there. And I just want to say the owner is Patrick Russell, who owns a couple of other restaurants, including the Irish restaurant next door, Slantia and a Cooper's in North Baltimore County. And I think he has one in D.C. now.

[02:30:55] So, shout out to Patrick Russell and Cooper's because he was an absolutely just a terrific host to us and also host to the reunion. He was such a terrific guy and also a terrific philanthropist apparently around Baltimore as well. So, shout out to Patrick Russell. Thank you. Yeah. Well, that is us done for this episode. So, thank you very much everybody for listening. If you're still out there, thank you. And, you know, I hope you enjoy the continuing episodes that we've got coming up.

[02:31:25] And, yeah, thank you very much for listening. Take care. Yep.