S3 Ep4: Darryl Wharton-Rigby, Writer

[00:00:16] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award winning television show, Homicide Life On The Street, with myself, Chris Carr, and Susan Ingram. On today's podcast, we're joined by writer, Daryl Wharton Rigby.

[00:01:04] Hello everybody and welcome back to Homicide Life On The Set. Today we have a great guest, Darryl Wharton-Rigby, who was a production assistant who stepped up to being staff writer and then became a fully fledged writer on the show. Now, before we get into the interview, Susan, how are you? Hey everybody. Hey, hey, hey. Good, good. This was so much fun to talk to Darryl.

[00:01:27] Also, we mentioned at the beginning of the interview, but we were on three continents that day because I'm in, obviously, the United States and Baltimore and Chris is in London and Darryl is in Japan. And big thanks to him for staying up late for us because he started at about 9 p.m. and we probably went until 11 p.m. his time. Yeah, it's about 11 p.m. his time. Bless him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:01:50] So he wasn't nodding off on us or anything. So that was a really terrifically thoughtful conversation. But also, I just think really inspirational for people that are looking to get into business, you know, start as a PA, find out what your passion is. I mean, he found out what his passion was, you know, in college, in high school probably.

[00:02:13] An inspirational story. And he's been now in Japan 20 years and is a professor at Temple University's Japan satellite campus. So it just was, I think everyone will really enjoy this. Please listen because it's a terrific ride to listen to his story. Yeah, definitely. Especially if you're interested in screenwriting, we do go into some details about how he approaches writing.

[00:02:39] And I think it's really great. And just listening back, I was sort of absorbing things. I'll definitely be listening again to absorb some more. So, yeah, fantastic discussion. Really enjoyable discussion. Such a great character. And I hope actually we can get him back on again at some point in the near future as well. Yes. He's got lots of things going on.

[00:02:57] And also underscores the incubator that homicide was for many people who moved up into, from being PAs, into positions. And then their career, you know, grew and blossomed from there. And the opportunity he was given on homicide, specifically by Tom Fontana, is just wow. What a great story.

[00:03:26] Once again, another great origin story. Yeah, indeed. Now, we have some slightly unfortunate news about the show, don't we? Yeah. So, surprisingly, they don't get a bad mouth peacock again. So, we just found out that homicide at this point of the airing of this episode of the podcast has already left peacock.

[00:03:54] It left peacock on August 18th after a two-year contract. We have been scrambling to find out if it has or will be picked up anywhere else for, you know, a reasonable streaming fee or free because it also was on Tubi for a while. It's now no longer on Tubi for free, but it is still broadcasting on Charge TV.

[00:04:24] Just go to their website and find out where it's broadcast locally in your area. It is available here in Baltimore on Fox 45.4. They air homicide episodes at 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. So, if you're in Central Time or Pacific Coast Time, you can watch it earlier than we get it here. And if you're in the U.K., it's at 6 a.m. There you go.

[00:04:49] Wake up, like Chris said, with your coffee and find Charge TV and watch some Homicide. It also still is available, the full boxed DVD set of Homicide, which is the original version, which with all the original music, I've heard people say they preferred to go back to that. No commercials, but it's in, you know, the 4-3 originally way, the way we shot it originally, the way it was broadcast aspect ratio.

[00:05:19] So, the full boxed set is available for about $50 to $60. And that does include, right, that does include the movie. It's sort of considered the last episode. The boxed sets have the movie. You can also apparently buy per episode and per season digital versions on Amazon.

[00:05:37] And I haven't gone back and looked to see if that is the remastered version that you can rent on Amazon Prime per episode or per season or the entire series for about $70 or something. But that's a good question. Is that the remastered version that they're... I couldn't imagine it not being, just with the way things are, because it kind of came out after the restoration. So, I'd imagine...

[00:06:05] I'll take a stab in the dark and say I imagine it is, but... It's tied to Peacock, so... Yeah, yeah. But you can go in there and buy them. And currently in the UK, it's still available on Now TV, so... Oh, good. But that might expire. Who knows how long the deal with Now TV was, because it came to the UK about six months after the streaming started in the US. So, it could be it has another six months on Now TV and then their contract expires. Who knows? We'll find out, I guess, in the near future.

[00:06:33] And there used to be pirated versions available for free on YouTube, but it may even be only available purchase on YouTube now. YouTube TV. Maybe. Maybe. Or the pirated versions may slowly come back, because there's obviously a demand somewhere. These shows. And again, it kind of is another argument about it's a good idea to physically own media rather than rely on streaming. Because ultimately, it's all reliance on who are the decision makers with these things.

[00:07:02] And it's very sad that Peacock's not backing its own show, because we'll talk about Off Air, how obviously there are umpteen seasons of Law and Order and various other shows that have been on Peacock for some time. And yet Homicide's been on for about two years. So, yeah. So, I hope it maybe may find a home somewhere like Netflix or Amazon, and maybe it gets a wider appeal. Because I feel like it kind of disappeared a little bit when it went on Peacock.

[00:07:29] So, I kind of feel like the wind came out of its sails after the release. But I don't know how other people feel, but it kind of feels like it kind of came and then disappeared. And I feel like there was a lot more potential where it could have connected with maybe a whole new generation of audience, which it doesn't appear to have done so far. So, who knows? Maybe if it's on Netflix, it might start to become part of the cultural conversation again. We shall see. Right.

[00:07:53] Because people that have found it after the fact, like we will in the future, have on some of our super fans of the show. And one in particular mentioned he'd never heard of it until he worked with one of the video cameramen that would come and shoot video for us on the set. And he was a new young fan and discovered it many, many, maybe decades after the fact. And is absolutely hooked on it from the first episode.

[00:08:22] So, there were and are people discovering it, but it's a shame that it did not get promoted. I almost feel like Charge TV and Tubi did a better job of promoting it on their landing pages. And, you know, Charge TV did that whole Charge Con where they had little snippets of interviews with Tom Fontana. Yeah. So, and shout out to Tom.

[00:08:44] I don't know if he listens to our podcast, but I did contact him to see if he had any information about where it might be going or if it's going to get picked up anywhere else. And, you know, he might not be privy to any of that. But, you know, if we hear anything, we'll let you know. Yeah. Indeed. Indeed. This is a terrific, terrific episode. He is a terrific guy. And I think you'll really enjoy it. Yeah. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did recording it. So, this is Daryl.

[00:09:32] So, hey, good morning, Daryl from Japan. This is exciting. I would say good morning, but evening here. Right. So, kambang wa. Yeah. So, say that again? Kambang wa. Kambang wa. Yeah. Good evening. Good evening. So, for our listeners, it is 8 a.m. here in Baltimore and 1 p.m. in London with Chris. And it's 9 p.m. for Daryl in Japan. And tell us what part of Japan you live in now. Where are you?

[00:10:02] I live in Saitama, Japan, which is about an hour outside of, which is just outside of Tokyo, but I'm about an hour or so about outside of Tokyo. And I kind of give the comparison of if Tokyo was New York, I'm in Jersey. Okay. Gotcha. That's a good one. I like that.

[00:10:26] So, we decided this was the first time, and we didn't decide, this is the first time we've had an interview on three continents. So, you get the prize for that, Daryl. I feel honored. Yeah. The farthest crew member since Homicide. We say this about all our guests. Please check out Daryl's IMDB page, Daryl Wharton Rigby, and check out all the stuff he's done and go follow his career, because Daryl is just, he's like a renaissance man.

[00:10:53] He has done so many things since starting out as a PA on Homicide, then through being a staff writer or writer, and then on to being a producer director. So, it just never ceases to amaze me when we talk to people, and I look and see what everybody's done, because I quit the business on Homicide. So, my career path went a different direction. But when I look at what everybody's done since then, it really is, it's just an amazing depth of career for everybody that was on the show.

[00:11:23] So, you're originally from here. Originally from Baltimore. Yeah, and went to Baltimore City College, and for people who don't know what that is, that's a high school. The best high school, public high school in Baltimore City. I was going to say that, I was going to let you say that. So, start off with, you know, where, how early on did you have creative pursuits, and then get into writing, and then what was your path into film and eventually to Homicide?

[00:11:49] Well, I've always kind of had some creative pursuits, even when I was younger. Although, initially, probably from the age of seven to about 17, I wanted to be a doctor. But, as I was going through school, I started writing poetry. Some of the poetry was that, you know, very elementary school, middle school,

[00:12:16] I like you, do you like me, da-da-da-da-da. You know, those very innocent childhood poems. And then, as I went to high school at City, I started writing song lyrics. So, the poetry kind of started me writing music and writing song lyrics. And I started a band with a group of friends of mine, it's called New Society. And we were basically a Prince cover band.

[00:12:47] And, you know, I think there was probably a little bit of inspiration from Purple Rain. Probably a little bit of inspiration from Cooley High, which was one of my favorite movies. And one day I was riding my bike, because I used to ride my bike all the time. And something said, write a movie about the band.

[00:13:13] I had no idea about, something, I knew that movies were written. But I had no idea what that process was. And growing up, I had always been a library kid. And I would always go to Branch 14 Enoc Pratt Library in Baltimore, which was, you know, close to my house.

[00:13:36] And that's where I would go to check out books, trade comic books, and just spend time with the librarians. Like, the librarians knew me by name. And so I always knew if I needed to know something, I could go and find it in the library. So my library didn't have anything on screenwriting.

[00:14:06] But I went to the main branch downtown on Pratt Street, and I found a book on screenwriting. It was a Sid Field screenwriting book. And I checked that book out, read it from cover to cover, read it again, and literally started trying to write that first screenplay. And I was like, maybe my senior year in high school. And I never checked the book back in. That's great.

[00:14:35] Do you still have it? I still have the book. I love it. But I think the statute of limitations has passed on the, I don't want to get the fines on what that book would be now. But when I went, you know, after high school, I went to college at Ithaca College in New York. And I, you know, initially, because they had a really good film program at Ithaca. And I applied for the film program.

[00:15:05] I didn't get accepted. But I was accepted into the school, but not the film program. And so I went into the, to the school as what they called exploratory, where you kind of have to find yourself. But I knew I wanted to do, you know, the film thing. And so I took the screenwriting classes. You know, I took production classes as, and I took classes as electives.

[00:15:31] And then I reapplied to get into the film program again, and they denied me a second time. But I just kept being in the film program. I also did radio while I was in college. So I was pretty much entrenched in the communications building. So much so that nobody didn't know that I was actually a history major.

[00:15:56] So I was a history major, but doing all my electives in the film program. So I was doing the screenwriting, the production classes, everything I could. So that even when I, during my senior year, I even did a senior film because I wanted to, not because I had to. And in my junior year, I was still writing that first screenplay that I started back when I was at City.

[00:16:25] And that screenplay allowed me, you know, I actually won the intermediate screenwriting award for Ithaca that year. And so it kind of gave me a sense of I was on my way in a way. It was kind of like a sense of validation, especially since I wasn't in the program. So it's good. That's that's good inspiration. Everybody out there, create your own program, right? Yeah, basically.

[00:16:49] But the thing is, what I really think that it helped a lot was the fact that the thing about like the history degree gave me was a set of skills in terms of doing research. And that research as a writer is really important. So I'll do a ton of research before I write something. And that'll be and I'll take all of that information and figure out, OK, now how do I work the story from there?

[00:17:18] So I appreciate to have my history degree because it gave me another skill set for when I do my writing. And I was thinking when I was when I was watching the episode, one of your episodes last night, how much research must have gone into this into sins of the father. So we can talk about that later. And that it may be maybe munged, you know, with your history background and not just your ability to do research, but your interest in it. That would make that because that is an awesome episode. So we'll talk about that later.

[00:17:46] But it definitely comes into play, you know, in one of your teleplays. Yeah. OK, so where were we? You were at you had just decided you were going to write screenplay about your band. Yeah. So I wrote this screenplay about the band while I was in college. It got me the intermediate screenwriting award. And I still kept working on it. And my minor in college was writing.

[00:18:09] And so I continued writing and working on that script for my minor, which was a thing that I had learned that no one had ever done that before at the school. And so when my professor, my, you know, my advisor professor said, what are you going to do? I said, I want to write a screenplay. He's like, screenplay? I said, yeah.

[00:18:32] And so I basically did a full basically presentation about why screenwriting was a valid form of writing. And that you it's you know, it has a structure to it. You know, the three acts just similar to theater. And so I wrote a screenplay for my writing minor for undergrad.

[00:18:54] And so, you know, that kind of just kept me going in terms of understanding the process and even going to the process of saying, OK, now what do I have to do to take these words and now put them on film to shoot?

[00:19:11] And so I shot a senior film in my last year called The Poem Unwritten, which is kind of like a love story about a young guy who meets a girl and, you know, boy meets girl, boy gets girl, boy loses girl forever. I love it. And it was, you know, short film shot on 16 millimeter. And it's somewhere in my office here.

[00:19:39] And it's interesting because that film at least was able to screen at different festivals. And it got me kind of attention as a young filmmaker. You know, screaming, you know, screening like in screenings at New York with the Black Filmmakers Foundation. I think it got a was able to earn a grant through the Maryland State Arts Council.

[00:20:03] But, yeah, that short film kind of got me a little bit of attention as a up and coming filmmaker, you know, coming out of Baltimore. Once I came out of undergrad, I started, you know, I. My mother wanted me to find a job. You know, you graduate from college, you have your degree and your parents want you to go out into the world and find work. And that's, you know, what you do.

[00:20:34] I said, I want to be a filmmaker. So literally, you, I grew up as this. Kid who wanted to be a doctor to wanting to be a filmmaker. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, how do you make money doing that? I said, I don't fully know, but I'll figure it out.

[00:20:54] And even before I graduated, I actually interviewed for, I think it was either, it had to be either Avalon or one of John's films, John Waters' films. And I got hired as a PA on the film, but I would have had to take a semester off. And my mother was like, I told you, you got four years, not four and a half.

[00:21:26] So I actually had to turn the production down to go finish my final semester in undergrad. But once I graduated, I actually was, you know, I did kind of odd jobs. And then the Maryland film office used to have a hotline. I don't know if Susan remembers that. Yes. Wow. That's a flashback. Like, I used to have a hotline. I do remember that, but only because you said that.

[00:21:55] Like, they used to have this hotline that would tell you about productions that were coming to town. And it would, the hotline would also kind of let you know, put, send your resume here. And, you know, if you, you know, and so I remember calling the hotline one day. I was just out on my bike and I said, let me call the hotline. I called the hotline. And they said, oh, we have this movie coming in. You have to take your, you know, you have to send your resume to the Tremont Plaza.

[00:22:26] And, you know, you know, send it in. Don't take it in. Don't, you know, me being me, I used to, because I used to ride my bike everywhere. I kind of just looked like a bike messenger. And so I basically went to the Tremont Plaza because I, in my backpack, I had already had my resume.

[00:22:53] So I took my resume and I took it to the production office. And I turned it in, you know, I was like, you know, rules, rules, rules, rules. And I turned it in and maybe about a week or two later, I got a phone call. And I'm then, you know, after that, got a meeting with the producer of the project, Mike Hausman.

[00:23:24] And it was, the film was Homicide by, directed by David Mamet. Right. And what year was that? Because that was before, I think. Yeah, that had to be. Before I moved back there. That had to be about 91, about 1991. And so I have this meeting with Mike Hausman. And he kind of marches in to the office. You know, he's like, puffs, chest, and what's. And I remember he sits down.

[00:23:55] And I could see my resume on the desk. And he looks and he goes, young man, I see you went to Ithaca College. You know, and I'm, this is my first interview. And I got my shirt and a tie and it's hot. And I said, yes, sir. And he goes, I'm a Cornell man myself. I said, oh, Cornell.

[00:24:25] I love Cornell. I had some great times at Cornell. Because, you know, Cornell's in Ithaca, New York. And, you know, they're kind of like sister schools. I took classes at Cornell. You know. And so it kind of broke the ice really quickly. And so we had a really great conversation. And I explained and said, yeah, you know, coming out of college, you know, I'm just looking for a gig. And my mom's worried about it. And as I'm leaving, he says, don't worry. I think tell your mother you'll probably be fine.

[00:24:55] And the next thing you know, I'm working on David Mamet's Homicide, which is my first professional feature film project. Which I realized that, you know, once I was on that set, I realized I need to unlearn everything I ever learned in film school because it's a whole different ballgame here.

[00:25:16] It was a whole different ballgame because I remember, like, just those long hour days. You know, like, you don't realize, like, how much stamina you have to have when you're working on a film set. And I really wasn't prepared. You know, I was prepared, but I wasn't. You know, I was a kid.

[00:25:46] And I remember. Who could be prepared? It's such a, it's such a, it's, you can't compare what it's like to work on a film set to I don't think anything. I mean, it is absolutely unique in the jobs you have to perform and the way you perform it. And I remember the first week, because of the hours, my body was just like, yo, what's going on?

[00:26:13] And I had a day where I overslept, slept through the alarm. And when I realized I was late, I woke up, jumped on my bike and dashed off to the set. And the second AD, Karen Collins, she looked at me, she goes, what happened? I said, overslept. And she looked at me and she goes, if it happens again, don't bother coming back. Wow.

[00:26:44] Yeah, exactly. You cannot be late on a film set. And interesting, I worked with Karen Collins on, I think, Return to Lonesome Dove years later. Weird. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry. But she gave me that second chance. And it's one of those things I never forget because of the fact that she gave me the second chance.

[00:27:06] So much so that when we wrapped that day, I went to the store, got a second alarm clock, set my main alarm, took the second alarm, put it on the other side of the bedroom. So that when that second alarm went off, I had to get my butt up out of the bed so I could get it, you know, just to make sure I was not going to have that happen again.

[00:27:34] But, you know, I had a really great time working on that film, learned a lot. And, you know, it showed me, like, what a professional set was like in a way that I probably, you know, that I needed to learn. I needed to get my ass kicked a little bit. Gosh, yeah. I think everybody does their first job on a film set. You get your ass kicked. Absolutely.

[00:28:03] You know, you have folks who will kind of, as they say, some folks will try to bust your balls a little bit, especially the Teamsters. And the Baltimore Teamsters are a very special crew of people. Special. They were. You know, and the Teamsters, like, used to, I, you know, I remember on that show, the Teamsters kind of one day they said to me to go, like, they were talking something and they were talking smack. And it was like, you know what? And I walked up to them and I said, you know what?

[00:28:33] I said, you guys have not been right since the Hatha incident. And they looked at me like, what? What? What got up? Daryl. And, you know, and then next day, hey, Daryl, how you doing there? Yeah. It's almost like once you pass the test, you know, if you pass the test with them, you're gold. You're gold. I mean, they really sort of, they really accept you and sort of wrap you up, you know, once you pass, you know, that you're not an asshole test, right?

[00:29:02] Pretty much. You're not an asshole, but you can also give as good as you get, you know? And so I think once you can show that, hey, I can give as good as I get, you know, they're pretty much like, hey, what do you need? You need any help? You know? And, you know, you get to work with and learn, you know, you know, because I think the good thing about working as a PA, you get to kind of flow between departments. You know, and so you get to talk to the folks in the camera department.

[00:29:31] You get to talk to folks in props. You get to talk to the grips and electrics and hair and makeup. I, to this day, love the hair and makeup folks because they look out for folk. You know, like if they're looking like they look out, they were looking out for the PAs at times. So, like, when you had those long hours, the hair and makeup folks would be the ones who would go, come in here, take five minutes, sit down. Nice.

[00:29:56] You know, because they see what you're doing and they just say, you need to take a break right now. And they could, they're the ones who can kind of see that and you're like, okay, okay. And you take that five minutes and when you go back out, you're ready to go again. You just get that little bit of a recharge. Wow, I love that. That's a great story. I love that. But those experiences, I think, have helped me now when I talk to my students.

[00:30:20] But the other thing is, I think that experience, I go, I must have did a decent job on homicide because I kept working as a PA. I kept getting hired for other jobs. You know, so I've worked on Robert Townsend's Meteor Man, you know, Homicide. Gettysburg. Gettysburg, Home for the Holidays. You know, Gettysburg was interesting because that was surreal. That's where you two met, isn't it? That's where we met. Absolutely. Can I tell that story, Daryl?

[00:30:50] You can go for it. If you remember it, because I love it. And it was like, to me, it was like bonded instantly with you when you showed up. So the story is, I originally was on the B unit. And I think this might have been my first day sent over to the A unit to be the focus puller on the B camera. And we, I started when they were shooting all the battle scenes from the Confederate side. Right, Daryl?

[00:31:18] So I show up and, you know, and Dave Thompson was my second. And it was, we were doing the step off from the Pickett's Charge scene. So we're doing, we're getting ready to shoot the cannonade, which like the 900 cannons in a row going off. And these were all like, you know, I know in the real Gettysburg, it was like 15,000 Confederates stepped off that morning. But I think we had like, what, 5,000 maybe? Maybe. It was an incredible amount of people.

[00:31:48] And the cameraman's like, take the camera, put a 600 millimeter lens on the camera and take it up the top of the scaffolding. And you were sent over with the walkie to be the PA with us because we were going to be separated from the A camera. And you walked over and you had your Malcolm X t-shirt on. Yep. And at that time, you had your dreads. And you walked over because there was a Confederate string band playing all morning long, all morning long.

[00:32:18] And you walked over the first thing, I loved you for this. The first thing you said to me was, if they play Dixie one more time, I'm going to kill somebody. I was like, you know, okay, so let's not get political. But that was so funny. It was like, that stuck in my mind. And like, I knew what kind of guy you were, like right off the bat. And you were great. So that's where I met you and then was really happy when I saw you show up on Homicide. And you might have started on the series.

[00:32:46] Now, it's interesting that you worked on Homicide the movie, which had nothing to do with Homicide the TV series. No. At all. Totally, like, not connected whatsoever, but both shot in Baltimore, which is really interesting. So then at what point, so I think for me, it was Gettysburg and then I think I did one John Waters film, which is why I wasn't on the first season of Homicide. And then their loader left. It must have been CCB Demented. No, it was Serial Mom. Oh, Serial Mom.

[00:33:15] Were you on Serial Mom? I wasn't on Serial Mom. Yeah, and then Boots and Tom Lappin were on Serial Mom and then they asked me to come work on Homicide when their loader left. And that's where I think I saw you again was when I started on the second season of Homicide. Yeah. So after your couple, after those features, so you have feature film experience, which is really interesting because in Baltimore at the time, you know, prior to that era, there's like nothing happening here. And then all of a sudden there were feature films being shot here. There was a TV series.

[00:33:45] There was, you know, so when we lucked into coming out of school or coming out, I came back from L.A. at the time, working in L.A. And there was this enormous amount of production happening. We were like two or three professional crews deep here in Baltimore at the time because there was so much going on. And so then, so you had the privilege of working on feature films before you came to Homicide, which is really interesting because they only hired feature film directors on Homicide, which was a TV series, which is unheard of.

[00:34:15] So then how did you, what was the connection there? Was it just because you had already been working as a PA? Were there people on the show you knew? How did you get on the show? I'm trying to remember who, like I came in, I know I came in an interview. It might have been, you know, because Frank Farrell was also on Homicide. And so Frank and I were PAs together on the Mammoth Homicide movie. We were working together on there.

[00:34:44] And so I think part of that relationship helped bring me in to the TV series. You know, because they said, oh, no, Daryl, he's good. He's good. You know, like it's good to have people who will vouch for you once you're kind of, you've done your thing. Absolutely. Because almost all the jobs you get in the film business are because, you know, I don't want to say this, but it's because your experience of having worked with other people and you end up working with those people, you know, over and over again. Yeah.

[00:35:14] And then, you know, I remember being in the, I don't remember where it was, but I still remember the first day of being in the production office for Homicide. And I saw like they had pictures of the cast up and I saw Andre Brower's photo up and I go, oh, he's on here? Because here's the funny thing. I met Andre on the first, on the movie Homicide.

[00:35:39] Because at that time, Andre, yeah, he and Karen were good friends because Karen worked on Glory. And so he came over to, from DC because he was doing Othello in DC with Avery Brooks. And so he came over from DC to visit Karen and I was able to meet him there. And then when he was on Homicide, hey, Andre, how you doing?

[00:36:06] He goes, and it was kind of like, he remembered me from back then. And so that kind of was like, I was like, oh my God, he's on this show now, you know? And. Wow. Me was always this fantastic. I didn't know, like, I don't think anybody knew, knew, like how iconic that Pimbledon role would become at that time.

[00:36:30] You know, you look back and you go, the Munch role never died. Like, Richard kept doing that role. Like that whole role was an entire career along multiple shows. And even a Brady Bunch movie. No, really? I don't think I knew that. I don't think they call it. They don't call him Munch in the Brady Bunch movie, but he's playing a detective.

[00:37:00] And when they come to his shot, the camera's doing this. Oh, wow. I got to go look for that. They do the handheld thing for him. So, yeah, you know, it was interesting, like working on, you know, like that first season and working on it. And just having that experience of, you know, meeting Yafit Kodo for the first time because you're like, oh, my God, that's the dude from Alien. And Ned Beatty.

[00:37:25] I tell you, the funny thing is with Ned was like, we would be out in the, you know, like when you do like shots, we were shooting outside in the streets and you hear people see Ned and they go, squirrel like a pig. His face would just turn so red. That happened his whole career, I think. He was like, it's a movie. That's a movie. Oy, oy, oy. No wonder he had a flashpoint. Yeah.

[00:37:51] Yeah, I think that, I think Deliverance was very traumatic for him on a lot of levels. Yeah, I can't, yeah. But it was just so great because it was such a great cast that when you look at how, like it was a cast that, you know, if it was a sports team, the bench was really deep. You know, you know, because think about it, Melissa Leo now has an Oscar.

[00:38:16] You know, you know, it's like you think of like how deep that bench is, like Clark Johnson, you know, became a hundred million dollar director. You know, it was just crazy, you know, where you think about where folks have gone since that show. You know, I remember, you know, I still remember Wayne Ewing, who was the first DP on the show. And he was kind of like this very hippie, hippie guy. But it was great to talk to.

[00:38:44] You know, and he talked about how, you know, part of his inspiration for the style was, you know, was Godard's Breathless. You know, and that actually, you know, inspired me to go actually watch Breathless at that time. You know, so it's like hearing other people's inspirations, especially at that time, because you actually had to go and make a concerted effort to find films.

[00:39:13] You know, you had to go to the Blockbuster or the Video American and actually search out titles for projects and for films because. You know, it wasn't like you could just go to a theater and see a lot of films, you know, and this was like kind of just the early years of that burgeoning home video movement and market. And, you know, just probably just before DVDs went off.

[00:39:43] So, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting you say Video American because the Blockbusters, of course, were everywhere. But Video American was a place where if you knew you had, you know, maybe an art film or a film that you couldn't find anymore. It would be at Video American because they had a real eclectic library. Well, I loved it. And the fact that you could. They had like part of it was also organized. Some sections were organized by filmmakers.

[00:40:10] And, you know, and that you could like, OK, I want to watch all of Gugard's work. And you had a whole section that was there and you could check out those films. Well, and it's interesting you mentioned Breathless again because, of course, you know, that was, you know, one of Barry Levinson and Tom Fontana's sort of directives that that was the sensibility.

[00:40:32] They wanted to bring that sort of French New Wave attitude in the way the show looked and the way it felt and the idea of the like the camera as as an observer or as another as another character. But also when you said earlier that that Andre was a DC doing Othello. So here we have cast members that are doing Shakespeare and come on to the show. And it's not weird. It's like good.

[00:40:58] It like makes the show so good that that, like you said, even just with one actor, the kind of deep background one actor had that came to the set with this ensemble cast where everybody pretty much, except for a couple of newbies, everybody were these ridiculously experienced actors across the board in all kinds of all kinds of films. Right.

[00:41:22] And the guest, you know, the guest who came on the show, like I still remember like when Alfre Wooden and Andre had scenes together. And I was like, this must that feeling must have been akin to like saying watching like Miles Davis and John Coltrane working together, you know, as performers, because they're just feeding off each other at such a high level.

[00:41:45] Or, you know, seeing a young Jeffrey Wright on the show with James Earl Jones, you know, it's, you know, and Lynn Thigpen, you know, it's like one of those things where you sit and you go, wow. Because I just, I remember Jeffrey Wright from Basquiat and seeing him in Basquiat. So I was like, wow, this guy's, you know, and then to meet him and be on the set with him was, you know, also just a different experience.

[00:42:12] Although it was kind of funny because I remember he came late a couple of times. Because Jeffrey was from D.C. And I heard, you know, there were a couple of times Teamsters had to go to D.C. to pick him up. Yeah, it's interesting. We just interviewed Alan Taylor the other day on Monday who directed both those episodes you just mentioned, the one with Alfre Woodard and one of the three part, the three part with James Earl Jones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:43] And one of the things he talked about was there was no cast like that. There was no major film actor cast where there was multiple major film actors in an ensemble cast on TV at that time. He said that it did not exist. Yeah.

[00:43:01] And that and we and we talked about the idea of I mean, those scenes in the box with Alfre Woodard and Andre are like some of the best ever acting on television. Just really amazing how how they also they up the bar with each other as they're acting. Right. They're so good. Their acting gets better when they're playing against these amazing actors. So, yeah. So that's what you came into. Right. As a PA. Yeah.

[00:43:28] And then years later, I got to meet and hang out with Alfre and her husband in L.A. when I was living in L.A. You know, and then, you know, you had Melvin Van Peoples on the show who was like I kind of called him my cinematic spirit animal, you know, because of just that fiercely independent thing that Melvin had, especially when he did Sweet Sweetback.

[00:43:51] And, you know, and then when I did my first film, Melvin was there, I think, as a judge for a contest for, you know, for my first film. And then when we did a when the Maryland Film Festival did a screening of Badass, Melvin came and we hung out. And then when I did my last film, not long before he passed.

[00:44:17] I showed my last film in New York and Melvin happened to be there at the theater and I was able to kind of reconnect and just talk to him. And I got to introduce him to my oldest son. And, you know, it was just kind of like a full circle moment of like, here I am screening my film in New York for the first time. And here's Melvin again. You know, because also when I filmed detention in Paris, Melvin was also there in Paris.

[00:44:44] So it's like one of those guys, like as you think about like your trajectory and you go, oh, Melvin keeps showing up, you know, and now he's gone. I'm like, I don't have a Melvin rank. I got to make this next film. But what great timing for you to come in and to be able to have the kind of role model, you know, writer, producer, director, actor who is not like that taken. He's not taking anything from anybody. He's doing his thing, right? Yeah.

[00:45:11] He's taking no guff from nobody and he's putting it all on the line, you know, and it just, you know, those experiences remind me of like, OK, if you want to do this, this is what you got to do. And, you know, but yeah, I had lots of memories of something. Yeah. So then once you got there, let's get to let's get to the writing. So because, you know, I've said this in a couple episodes, I'm in the camera department in my little silo.

[00:45:40] I don't know how people are moving around and how they're getting from place to place. So, like, how did you get from being a PA, not only just in the writer's office as a staff writer, but then end up writing a couple episodes. And then within the context of that question, lay out for us the difference between staff writer, written by, teleplay by and what that means. You know, like we can see those credits and not have any idea what that means. Yeah.

[00:46:04] But you can tell us what that means as far as what as a writer and your process, what input and when it's a team effort, when you're doing it yourself, you know, that kind of thing. So when I was working on the show, I would always keep a notebook in my pocket. Any show I ever worked on, I always had a notebook in my pocket.

[00:46:23] And if I had an idea that I was working on, especially if I was working on a script, I would be somewhere and I would just start writing stuff for my scripts because we didn't have final draft back then. And so I would then go home at night and then type out what I was writing. And one day I was on the homicide set and I, you know, I built a, you know, a rapport with like Tom and, you know, the other producers.

[00:46:53] And I went to Tom and I said, Tom, I'm going to write, I want to write a speck of the show. Tom said, Daryl, if you write it, I'll read it. Challenge accepted. So I went off. I kept writing my notes, wrote a draft of the script and finished it, gave a copy to Tom. Tom said, OK, I'll read it.

[00:47:24] I had left the show. I left the show to go work on. Renaissance Man. Penny Marshall's film with Danny DeVito. And that that show actually got me my first trip to L.A. And left the show, worked on that. Worked on some other stuff. I actually wound up doing an episode as an actor on the show.

[00:47:53] Yes, you did. You did. Yes, you did. You killed. You killed somebody on the show. I killed. I killed Joe Morton. Oh, right. Joe Morton. We love Joe Morton. Well, yeah. What was the name of that episode? Because we watched that recently, too, because it was some some director, I guess, that we had worked with. I should get the title of the episode. So I have to find it. I can't remember the name of the episode. I know.

[00:48:18] I just remember I had scenes with like Ned and I had scenes with Clark and Yafit. Yeah, you were in the box. Yeah, you were in the box and then had to explain why you killed somebody and then paid for your mint on the way out. And my character had to be slow. Yes. You definitely had mental health issues for sure.

[00:48:37] You know, and so, you know, so basically I just went off and did other stuff that was separate from the show and eventually, you know, wound up writing my own feature film that actually got produced as a play at Arena Players in Baltimore. And even did some other theater work. And then. I would come and visit the set.

[00:49:05] I would just visit the set at that point because I wasn't working on the show. I was just visiting the show. And when I visit the show, I would still see Tom and I would see Yash and, you know, everybody on the, you know, and I would go in and say, hey, how you guys doing? And it's also, I was also buying short ends at that time from the show at the end of every season. Oh, yeah. We weren't just giving them to you? No. We should have just given them to you. Jim Finity give you anything?

[00:49:36] We could have snuck them out of the dark room for you. Darn. I wish I had known that. We should have known about that. But, yeah. No, I would take, I would buy, like, short ends, like, but you guys were selling them for, like, pennies on the dollar. So it wasn't that bad. And I just took all those short ends and put them in a freezer. And to remind our listeners, we were shooting on 16 millimeter. So it was something that Daryl could have taken and had easily gotten a camera to shoot something with.

[00:50:01] Not a 35 millimeter, but 16 would be easier for you to shoot, to take and go use. Which is a lot of the film that we actually used to shoot my first feature, Detention. You know, with Boots. I love it. You know, and. Was he the DP? I didn't think I knew that. Boots shot it. Yeah, Boots was the DP on Detention. Oh, wow. I love it. And so what happened is I shot Detention. This was the summer. Is this 89? 90, 90, 90, 80, 70.

[00:50:31] No, 90, 96, 97. So we shot Detention that summer. And like I said, I would always come to visit the set. And every time I see Tom, Tom would go, Daryl, got your script. Still haven't read it. I have a stack here. You're here. And I was like, no, all good, all good, you know. And I shot Detention that summer.

[00:51:01] And we were in the process of, because my producing partner at the time, Maxie Collier, we were going to shoot two features that year. Like he had one. I had one. It was like, we're going to. And so we shot Detention. And then we were going to shoot Maxie's film. And then I went down to the set. And I finally wanted to just kind of visit. And Tom says, Daryl, read your script.

[00:51:29] Set up a meeting with Ivan. Set up a meeting with his assistant. I go to Tom's office. And he said, read your script. I want to bring you on board. No way. From that first spec script, they brought you on as a staff writer. See, that's the other thing is this show is that as a creative incubator for people is just really, really, really special. Wow.

[00:51:53] And, you know, it's like you could have popped me with a, I was like, what, did Tom just offer me a job on the show? You know, because I was, I wasn't even expecting that. You know, it was just like, I was, I would have been happy. He said, hey, I read your script. I liked it. Here's some notes. Da, da, da. I would have been good with that.

[00:52:22] A job was a whole different level of thinking. And what was the context? Was the script something, something that was like so much of the show was taken from the book? Was it something that you saw in the book that you took or something? It's just completely just Baltimore. No, it wasn't anything from the book. It was probably just me growing up and being in Baltimore.

[00:52:46] You know, and then, you know, and I guess, you know, you still got to go through all the approval of people at NBC and all that stuff. And, you know, next thing you know, I'm like, I'm in the writer's office trying to figure it out. And at that time, yeah, and at that time, who was in there? So Ivan Fonseca, who was Tom's assistant and then ended up being an assistant director. Who else?

[00:53:14] So what was, who were the writers slash staff writers slash assistants? What did it look like? You know, Tom was in New York because he was mostly at that point focused on Oz. But you had Yash, David, Julie, Anya, and me. Was Jorge still there? Or was he, because he went off, was already off doing another series. No, Jorge wasn't there. David Mills wasn't there. Okay. Yeah. Jorge was gone, wasn't there. David Mills wasn't there. Right.

[00:53:44] David Mills. How about Henry or David or Overmeyer? Eric. Eric came in a little bit after that, you know, and it was, you know, it was great because it was like, here you are in this room with all these like really just talented writers. And it made you realize, oh, before I submit something, I better just make sure my game is on point.

[00:54:14] And there are days I go, was it on point? I don't know. So, you know, it's like imposter syndrome is real. Yes. Because I'm like, because, you know, there were days when I would turn in pages and I'm like, I hope it, you know, and then sometimes you would, sometimes you would get some stuff in, sometimes you didn't. Sometimes you would write on other episodes that weren't necessarily your credit, you know?

[00:54:38] And so it was a whole different process because, here's the thing, showrunners are executive producers. Those are the ones who are like, they have the overall, like Tom was the showrunner and the overall vision of the show. I think Yash might have been an executive producer at that time, as well as David.

[00:55:00] And then, you know, you had Julie and Anya and they were kind of in that producer, executive producer or co-EP space. And then below the co-EPs, you have the producers. And then below producers, you have, I think it's story editors. And then you have staff writer. You know, so staff writer is kind of the entry level and then you kind of go up the ladder.

[00:55:30] And it was one of those things where I didn't, I think because I was in Baltimore, I didn't understand fully how writing and television really worked. I think had I been in LA, I would have had a better understanding of the machinations of what happens and how you elevate. And what I realized after the fact was that a lot of people elevate by show hopping.

[00:56:01] Like they'll go, they'll start off as a staff writer on one show, maybe do staff writer on another show. Then that third show, they'll get to that story editor credit. And then they'll go to another show and get that next credit.

[00:56:19] And then kind of, and it kind of creates this sense of like how you get elevated and trained into the process of TV writing. So as a staff writer, are you, I would assume at some point there's maybe like a group meeting. And then do they say, Daryl, take a shot at this scene? Or is it really like you're proofing and rewriting? What does the staff writer actually do?

[00:56:48] Sometimes you may be given some scenes and say, okay, we need you to write a scene for this and da, da, da, da, da. Depending on the episode or, you know, if somebody, if they need something that, you know, needs to be maybe necessarily rewritten. Or sometimes you might just be reading scripts. And just reading a bunch of scripts to say, hey, this is good. What do you think?

[00:57:14] Like, and then, you know, but if you're given, and then when you're eventually given a script assignment, then you're given time to actually write a full episode. So when you got to Partners and Other Strangers, which is at the end, is a two-parter at the end of season five, which is a really pivotal, a really pivotal couple of episodes. And it's credited to, as written by, which means you were writing it, not just, you know, punching it up or something.

[00:57:43] Written by Anya and you and Julie. And there are a couple lines in there that are so Baltimore that I don't think anybody outside of Baltimore would have known. What's those lines? I don't remember. So Partners and Other Strangers, well, I'm going to say one. Partners and Other Strangers is one where they find Beau Felton, who they originally think that he's committed suicide, but he's been murdered. And, you know, Isabella comes back from Paris. It's like a really sort of pivotal episode.

[00:58:13] But there was one of the lines, I guess it's Lewis and, is it Falcone, are looking around. They're interviewing people in the neighborhood trying to find out if anybody. No, actually, that was the, that was, that was Sins of the Father. Anyway, it was, whoever was interviewing the people in the neighborhood. No, actually, this was, it wasn't, I'm sorry, it wasn't Partners and Other Strangers. It was Sins of the Father, which you wrote.

[00:58:42] But one of the people says that they're interviewing on the street who saw the guy hanging said he looked like a lake trout on a, his mouth, his mouth was hanging open like a lake trout on a fishing line. Well, lake trout, there is no such thing as lake trout anywhere else. Baltimore is, the term lake trout is very specific to Baltimore. And I didn't think anybody else, but you would have known that. And that that would have been something really normal for anybody in Baltimore to say.

[00:59:11] So, so those two episodes, Sins of the Father and prior to that, Partners and Other Strangers. Talk about that. You know, but got to give David his credit because David also has that Baltimore thing too a little bit. True. And maybe that was a line from the book. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. So, so those two that you have a, you have a different credit than Staff Writer on. Do you remember what, you know, how much writing, what the process is and what that means?

[00:59:38] I can't remember what, like for the Partners of the Strangers, I can't remember exactly what was written because it was so long ago and I'm old now. But, you know, I think that was a thing where you were given like a certain part of the storyline to work out. And then you wrote that and you kept it moving, you know, and then they did their thing, you know, and then sometimes you got rewritten.

[01:00:05] You know, you write something and all of a sudden it's like, like, it's one of the things where I learned that either you bring it and you put it out there and you hope that it, it survives. Like, and it was one of the things, and I especially learned from Eric Obermeyer is like, if there's something you believe in, keep pushing it.

[01:00:30] If there's something, you know, because I remember there was, there was a thing where Eric Obermeyer and it just like, he says something was a non-starter. And he put it in one script, it didn't make the episode. I read the next script by Eric and I say, all right, he put it back in there. It didn't make that episode. He says, sometimes you just got to keep trying.

[01:00:54] And, you know, because for me, Eric was kind of a theater hero too. Because in that time between, as I was working as a PA, one of the things I would also do was work at Center Stage in Baltimore, the theater. And so I would also go to the plays at Center Stage. And one of the plays that I went to was the heliotrope bouquet of, you know, Scott Joplin that was written by Eric Obermeyer.

[01:01:25] And I remember going and I said, Eric, I remember I watched one of your plays. And he goes, which one? I said, the heliotrope bouquet of Scott Joplin. He goes, that was you. Wow. So it was like basically saying, you're the one who saw that, you know?

[01:01:44] And so it was just one of those things where to see somebody's work before you even meet them and then you get a chance to meet them, work with them, and have a relationship with them is a whole nother level. Because in my office here in Japan, in my office at Temple, I have a poster, the homicide poster that Eric gave me.

[01:02:13] Because he was working on a show with Paul Atanasio, who wrote the pilot of Homicide. And I remember Eric goes, he goes, you want this? I go, he goes, he goes, I was like, sure. He goes, yeah, because, you know, he says, you did more in the show than Paul did. He did. So, you know, it was just kind of funny.

[01:02:34] I was like, so I keep that poster in my office, you know, because I was like, it just reminds me of, you know, you know, not only just Eric, but just the lessons that I learned from all those guys, you know, and all the just in terms of just writing. And, you know, in trying to, you know, they say find your voice as a writer.

[01:02:56] I think as I've gotten older, I'm beginning to find what my voice is, even still now, because I think it's not a thing that you may necessarily find at one point in time. I think it's a thing that you kind of develop over time. And you keep working it and you keep writing and you keep finding things. What is, you know, like what makes things, what stories are interesting to me as a writer? What kind of stories do I want to tell?

[01:03:27] You know, because as I now teach, I have to teach my students the process from the experience, from the practical experience, as opposed to like, oh, well, here's a book on screenwriting. And Sid Field says by page 35, you have to have your plot point there. And I told him, I said, there are no rules in writing, except don't be boring. Write something, make it interesting.

[01:03:58] You know, find who your, what your voice is. I will, you know, and I talk to my students about voice and writing from their own perspective. You know, and the exercise I'll do is like, I play my funny Valentine for the class. I'll play Wynton Marsalis's version. I'll play Miles Davis's version and Chet Baker's version.

[01:04:27] Because they're three very different renditions of the song. And I say, think about this. Same song, different voices. And I talked to him. I said, when you listen to Wynton Marsalis's version, it kind of starts off with a little bit of a dirge, you know, almost like a New Orleans funeral. And then it has the celebratory, you know, flourish towards the end of the song.

[01:04:55] I said, well, if you think about New Orleans, funerals start kind of with this dirge. And then all of a sudden, as they leave the funeral, there's kind of this celebratory music, you know, gone on to glory. And I said, if you think about, you know, Wynton Marsalis comes out of New Orleans. You know, this is part of who he is and the voice that he has. Miles Davis is a little bit more straight ahead. You know, it's very, very jazzy.

[01:05:21] You know, whereas Chet Baker, who's an excellent trumpet player, chooses something different. He sings it. Instead of using his horn, he uses his actual voice to sing the lyrics. You know, and I said, you know, so I teach them, like, this is how you develop voice. You try new things. You try other things. You use your own life experience to tell the stories you want to tell.

[01:05:48] So, writing question, was there an overarching sort of motto or directed that you had to keep in mind whilst writing an episode? Make it good. You know, it's funny. I remember one note that I got, and I would ask, I'd say, well, what are you guys thinking? You know, which way should I go? And they would say, oh, no, just make it up. Interesting. And, you know, you know, and it was that process of saying, okay, well, how do I make this up?

[01:06:17] What do I make this, you know? Like, sometimes you would get lost. Like, you know, like, I remember writing for, like, scenes for, like, Luther Mahoney. And trying to figure out, okay, I don't, this guy. I was a library kid. I wasn't a drug dealer.

[01:06:38] And I remember I did a, I had a touch in there because I think it was like, it was a costume thing that I did in one of the scripts where I think Luther Mahoney's wearing some kente cloth. And I remember Tom saying, I like that, you know, just that little moment, Tom was like, yes, I like that. You know, and I think it is in the episode. Like, you see Luther Mahoney wearing kente cloth. Right, like, yeah, a scarf.

[01:07:07] A scarf with kente cloth. Something like that. And it was like one of those things where you realize, like, trying to understand the characters for the show. Because it was interesting. I used to have people come up to me and they go, oh, so you must write for Yafit and Andre and Clark. And I go, no, I write for the show. You know, I write for, you know, all the, I'm not just writing for the black characters.

[01:07:37] Right. You know, and I'm like, it was just interesting that people would have this perception of what I would write. Like, you know, because I remember I wrote the exit, like part of the exit of Dr. Cox when she leaves, you know, when she leaves the show. Oh, wow. That's an interesting episode.

[01:08:02] You know, because part of that was also the fact, like, when she leaves, remember she kind of drives off? Yeah, it's a mirror to how she came in almost. Yes. In her white Mustang. That was my idea. That was you. Because I was like, maybe she should go. Because I remember, like, her coming in in the car. And I was like, maybe she should just leave in the car. And, you know, and it just felt like a great bookend in terms of her story arc.

[01:08:32] It's like she wrote in and she could be, like, you could almost imagine she's riding off into another series of her own. That would have been quite a good one. Yeah. And the, yeah, hey, think about that. Yeah. And the way she came in, she's in a, it was a white Mustang, right? Right. A convertible. So just that image gives you a sense of her personality and her character. And so to have that, yeah, to have that pulled through to her, like, well, you know, she's like, screw it, I'm out of here.

[01:09:01] So that sort of free, that sort of free, open character that came in like that goes out like that. And you really had that sensibility that that's the way she was when she left. Which is really interesting. So can we go, can we talk about Sins of the Father? Because that is one heavy episode. Yeah. And it also struck me that the character's name was Rigby. So you need to tell me about that.

[01:09:28] If that was you or on purpose or if that was a joke or not. No, it was on purpose. Because this is before I actually added Rigby to my last name. Because Rigby is my father's family's name. Okay. That's what I wondered was who's, what, was it a marriage name or was it interesting? And so part of it was the character's name, like the character's name is Dennis Rigby. And my uncle Dennis passed away while I was working on the show. Oh, wow.

[01:09:56] And so me personally, when I was writing the character, I wanted, you know, I was like, I wanted to kind of pay homage to my uncle. And like, you know, with the character. But I realized it, the only way I can do it is I got to make him the killer. Well, they're always the interesting ones though, right?

[01:10:18] And so, you know, but it was like, even the, and it's interesting because the name, the Ridenour name came from, you know, my love of Public Enemy. Because Chuck D from Public Enemy is Carlton Ridenour. And so it was kind of my quasi, you know, subversive way of adding a layer of hip hop in there using that name.

[01:10:46] Because I remember we got a letter from somebody from the Ridenour family. But this person was vehemently upset. My family was never slave catchers. Wow. Wow. That's weird. The one name that gets picked out of the sky, right? You know, and I was like, yeah, if they really knew where that name came from. Right. You said that you were paying homage, right? I was paying homage to a whole different thing. Tell somebody else.

[01:11:14] So that story, and I don't remember, was that's at that point where, you know, we're deep into, you know, getting toward the end of the whole series. And I know at some point they weren't pulling every story from the book. So was that not a book story? That was not a book story. Like Tom came to me and said, I want to do something about the Underground Railroad. And that was pretty much it.

[01:11:38] And so I'm thinking going, oh, because I knew there were stops of the Underground Railroad in Baltimore because, you know, my grandmother would talk about those kind of things. And, you know, and so this is, I think, where the history part of my life comes in a little bit. It's like, okay, let me go do the research.

[01:12:02] And then there's this part of me that has a little bit of a rebellious streak where I was like, ooh, I don't think we've ever done a lynching on the show. Wow. So in terms of the murder, I was like, we've never done a lynching on the show. Well, it would be interesting to see a white guy lynched.

[01:12:27] Yeah, it's just the whole sort of dichotomy of the story is so interesting and complex. Yeah, and it's the idea of like this guy's family and the history of the family and this guy having this very sense of where would my family be if this event hadn't happened back then?

[01:12:51] Kind of like the running idea through that was like, you know, can you really have a revenge killing for something that happened that is not even connected to you directly? Except, like you said, the legacy is connected, right?

[01:13:14] This white guy gets rich and the great-great-grandfather who had 400 acres and was free would have had a legacy. Yeah. And then that legacy is disappeared. Right. And so you have like, you know, because like, you know, I remember, you know, thinking is like my grandfather having this conversation with his cousin and his cousin selling the land. And my grandfather's like, you don't sell no goddamn land.

[01:13:41] And just that idea of like what the value of what land is and what, you know, the, you know, America's original sin caused, like the, you know, like how many legacy were destroyed because of America's original sin? How many legacies were destroyed because of systemic racism in the United States?

[01:14:09] And so it was kind of understanding and dealing with all that in terms of the layers of that particular episode of really wanting to tell a story of like, hey, this is a conversation that even people I think are still having today. You know, you know, because I think there are people who are, you know, like, I don't think anybody back then was talking about using the term generational wealth, you know, at that time.

[01:14:38] But now people are talking about and having these conversations about generational wealth. You know, there's some people I know who's still talking about reparations. Right. And that wasn't a forefront subject then either. No. You know, and so it was just one of those things where I just was like thinking about how do you do all of that, put all of that into a show and a cop show with that. And how did you, did you happen upon the Patty Cannon story?

[01:15:05] Because, because it's one thing, you know, there's a lot of sort of stereotypical slave catcher stories, but this is a very unique slave catcher story because it was a woman at a time when women didn't do things like that. So it is like, it's kind of like way out there, but all based on a real person. Right. It was part of the research of it was like finding her story gave me the, just the grounding for that particular story.

[01:15:34] You know, because I think, you know, I think if you can ground it in something that's real, then I think your audience can't go, that's bullshit. Because, you know, a lot of people, you know, like your audience will go, but then if you can say, well, no, this was, there was a historical thing that happened at a period of time and you make up the other stuff.

[01:16:04] But you're still grounding it in something that is historically accurate. And interesting. And I also like the way you kind of used the different points of views of the characters, because you've got the playoff between Lewis and Fowl Zone and their reactions to the case. And you've got Gee and Pemberton have a less receptive to the kind of racial historical motives until a lot later. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

[01:16:28] You know, I think it's just the idea, the characters of the roles of each of those actors and being able to have opposing points of view, you know, because I think you would, you know, I think you could have some folks who would look at it and go, well, perhaps all the black actors are going to agree with this situation. And not everybody want to be like that.

[01:16:53] But there's a whole lot of different, you know, it's like, Giardello's a black Italian dude. You know, Lewis is a little bit more, you know, he's kind of cool, but he's got opinions. You know, Pemberton's a little bit more, Pemberton's I guess a little bit more rigid in his, you know, in his point of view. And then, you know, Fowl Zone's Fowl Zone.

[01:17:19] Yeah, it was interesting because Andre, because Pemberton's character basically said, no, it's not about his ancient history. It's about sex, drugs or money. You know, so he really was going by just really by what his experience is of what the majority of homicides are about and really was not open to that possibility. And Lewis, Clark's character, is just like right off the bat, is like this is, the word he uses, right, is this is hinky.

[01:17:49] I mean, this is something is not right here. And it's too close to the Underground Railroad Museum. You know, it's definitely a lynching. You know, it was just really interesting how he hooked into it right away. And then that whole sort of, you know, the sort of stereotypical white, you know, perspective from Fowl Zone, who was like, what's the big deal? It's ancient history. It's this, it's that. And so you get all these like really disparate points of view.

[01:18:14] And sometimes from people you don't expect them from, which is what makes one of the things over and over that made this show so good, was there were so many things that were unexpected and not stereotypical about the way these characters reacted. And also that all this stuff is being spoken about out loud on network television, which also wasn't happening at the time. So did that, did that sort of give you as a writer, like a sense of freedom?

[01:18:41] I mean, what was there, was there, you know, in addition to what Chris asked, this sort of like motto or philosophy, like, and what Eric, you know, how Eric coached you was like, go for it. Was, was that a lot of what the sort of incubator and the, and the philosophy of the show was go for it. Yeah. A lot of those, like, just go for it, see what you can get away with. You know, it was interesting seeing some of the conversations these guys had behind the scenes because you would see them go for stuff.

[01:19:09] Like I remember one time David had a character in a script called bad motherfucker. And I was thinking like, can you get away with that? But they never say it in this show. So the character on the page is bad motherfucker.

[01:19:35] But I think at times that a lot of the guys would try to figure out, let's see, let's see how much stuff we could get away with. You know, because, you know, also I think the NBC censors at the time and, you know, would, you know, they had, you know, there were certain rules and things you couldn't do. Like, I think one time, like they said something about, it had a character say something about, I'm going to put my foot up your ass or something.

[01:20:05] And the censors are like, well, you can't actually have the, the object going into the orifice. It can be on the orifice, by the orifice. It was like everything. Oh, wow. And I think, and I'd have to go back and listen to it again, but I think in the box with Lewis and the Rigby character, I think Lewis uses the N word, which I think surprised me for at the time.

[01:20:33] And I'd have to go back and listen to it again, but I think he said that. Well, yeah, but, you know, it's interesting because I think in context with the word itself, it's not, look, I think, I think in context, depending on where it's being used, it's, you know. And it made sense in the scene, but the fact that it was on the air is what I think was, was interesting. Well, I think even at that time, but, you know, it's like that word was used on Sanford and Son, All in the Family.

[01:21:03] You know, many shows use the word, you know, you know, but there was always a context in which how that word was used. You know, it wasn't like, I think at times it wasn't necessarily used willy nilly. Right. So it's just one of those things I think it got used in a way that was, you know, part of what the story was and for the characters. Yeah, it totally made sense for the characters and the story and all that.

[01:21:33] It just, I, because I've heard this so much about the censors, it surprised me that it got through. But it was so integral to the scene. You know, it obviously made complete sense. We've heard that Nash Bridges was the main competition for Homicide due to the ratings. Very different show. I was about to talk about that. You know, it's funny.

[01:21:57] I used to, I, my, my thing was like the time that the show would come on, you know, our time slot, we had, you know, I think we ran up against what I would call the Bubba hour. You know, we were, what is it, Friday? Yeah, it was Friday. For some reason in my mind, I always thought it was Thursday, but apparently, I don't know at the time, but it was Fridays. It was like Friday, nine or 10 o'clock.

[01:22:24] Which we were always working nights, which is why I never saw it live. Right. And so you had, you know, and I, and I always looked at it like this. I would say, you know, people, you know, your average television viewer would come home, sit in the Barco lounger and turn on the TV and boom, 2020. I ain't watching this news stuff. Click. Then they would see Homicide. Oh, Cops and Robbers.

[01:22:56] Wow. They're talking a lot. Click. Mommy Vice. That's Chisha Chong. Nash Bridges. And, you know, I think Nash Bridges was just the much more audience friendly show. More appropriate for the timing of the screening, I suppose. Yeah. They put it like on a Thursday night. It would have probably been better. Yeah.

[01:23:26] So, but I think that's the process of it. You know, look, I think it's television. I think, look, I think Homicide found its audience. I mean, because I know there were a couple of times the show was on Last Legs, you know, and got saved. You know, I think the Robin Williams episode definitely was one of the things that helped to elevate the show. I wish I had been there. I wish I had been there and worked on that episode.

[01:23:54] I just remember hearing everybody goes, Robin Williams was on it. Robin Williams. Like, I think I was working on Renaissance Man or another show at the time. Like, I had left and gone. And they said, Robin Williams. I was like, Robin. Oh, my God. You know. Were you there when Robin Williams was there? I was on IMDP actually looking up to see. I think I was because I have these memories of him.

[01:24:22] I think that was season two, right? That was the very truncated season. I think so, yeah. Yeah. So, yes, I was there season two. And what I remember is his ability to be, you know, Robin Williams, to be very sort of all over the place and making jokes.

[01:24:40] And then as soon as the camera started, because that was such a serious role for him, as soon as the camera started, he was the grieving father, the torn apart father. It was really interesting. And also, once again, the way they used to cast people against type, the way they put partners that were 180 degree opposites from each other, that was not a type casting piece for him. So, yeah. Yeah. It was fascinating.

[01:25:08] I think that was David's first episode. Oh, wow. I forgot that. I think it was David Simon and David Mills wrote Bop Gunn together. And David Mills also became kind of a mentor to me, too, because, you know, when he was in L.A. around the same time I went to L.A. And he was, you know, one of those people I could meet every now and then and talk to and just kind of get, you know, get an understanding of craft and just hear him talk.

[01:25:37] You know, definitely a voice that television misses right now. David Mills. You know. And then Eric, you know, when Eric passed last year, it was heartbreaking. Another shock. Too many people lost from that show. So, so was it, you know, I don't mean to like point back at the race thing, but, but, you know, in 1993, 96, 94, 95, 96, 97.

[01:26:02] Was it unusual to have black staff writers to have a David Mills to have you on a network television show? Or is that, or am I not thinking that's, you know, the case? You know, I, I don't know. I, you know, I don't think there were a lot of, you know, black writers on dramas at that period in time, you know, but I wouldn't fully know because I wasn't in L.A.

[01:26:27] Or New York, you know, and I think if I hadn't been in L.A., I would have known who else was out there, you know, but it's funny. I met another writer who really has done very well as a writer who's from Annapolis. We actually sat down and had dinner one night and we were talking and I go, you know, and he said, dude, I wanted to be you. I'm so jealous you got to work on Homicide. And I was like, bro, you had this amazing career.

[01:26:56] He goes, yeah, but you worked on Homicide. I love that. Yeah, you sort of, you sort of think it's like in Living Color and obviously that was like a variety show and all that, but you sort of think of in Living Color as being sort of a breakout, you know, where, where it was known that this was a black production and black writers and black points of view and things like that, which was about that time. I mean, it was just a couple years, a year or two before and probably ran through while we were doing Homicide.

[01:27:23] But yeah, I just wondered if that was, you know, and who knows, like people like, you know, we see the credit. We don't see the faces, right? Who were the writers, you know, behind the scenes back then? Yeah. Like, I remember when I was, you know, because when I left the show, I started my, I was actually able to finish my feature and I followed around on the festival circuit and to different festivals.

[01:27:49] And I remember meeting folks and I would, sometimes I would have my homicide jacket with me. And I remember one, one woman came up and she was like excited, like, oh my God, you worked on Homicide, da, da, da, da. And it kind of freaked me out a little bit. Like, and she's a friend now, but she's also, she became a very well-respected writer in TV. But I, she still remembers, she goes, yeah, I remember when I assaulted you and came at you.

[01:28:19] So why don't you hit the highlights of some of the things? Like, what was it like, you know, did you go, I know I remember the writers being on the set. Did you go to the set? Was it interesting to watch? You know, were, were the scripts, you know, the words pretty much followed? Did people, I know Clark, you know, Clark was Clark and he, he like, he had a rhythm that maybe wasn't always what was in the script. So what was it like?

[01:28:42] And some highlights of, of the, of the actors and working with people and, and just, you know, sort of the whole process of being a writer and going to the set and how, and how the episode ended up eventually. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it was if times when they would say, Hey, Daryl, can you go cover the set?

[01:29:00] You knew there were times that you would pretty much have to try to stick to as close to the script as possible and not change anything, you know, because I mean, after a certain point, it's like you as a writer, even as a writer, how do you tell Yafa to be, how are you going to tell him to be Giardello? How are you going to tell Andre to be Pimbleton? You know, I mean, you know, but you would probably be more there to whisper in the ear of the director a little bit.

[01:29:30] I remember one time I was on the show on the, on the set and it was actually something I had written. So it was kind of like, all right, pick your battles. And the actor didn't, you know, like for some reason they wanted to change the line because of the reference of the character, the reference the character makes. Like I think I had written a reference about Greg Louganis, like diving out of the way, like Greg Louganis.

[01:29:58] And the, and the actor chose the wrong reference to make the argument. So it was immediate, like, no, because like he said, why wouldn't I just use like John Riggs and, you know, John Riggins. And I was like, isn't that the Redskins? And he goes, yeah. I said, this is Baltimore. This is cult country. Right. And he kind of looked at me and was like, say the line is written.

[01:30:27] And then the, you know, and he does it and he does it. And it's funny because the director was like, what does it matter? I said, it matters. I think it was Nick Gomez was the director on that one too. And that's one of the things I talked about in one of the episodes was like these tiny little specific Baltimore references are so good. And also set it apart from other network television shows that are maybe shot in LA and are supposed to be New York.

[01:30:56] And they don't have that microcosm thing happening like that. And so I remember the actor coming at, I think we had a wrap party that year and the actor came after the episode at air and the actor goes, you know what? You were right to fight for that line. It just makes the character a little bit more deeper. And I said, thank you. I appreciate that.

[01:31:19] And so it was nice to have an actor, even if it was like a guest actor coming in and actually validating the disagreement after the episode aired. You know, because it was interesting because you got to also in the writer's room, sometimes you got to watch the dailies, you know, from episodes. Because sometimes you work on stuff on set and you're like, what is Yafit doing?

[01:31:48] But the one thing about, I tell you, the brilliance of Yafit Koto is like he was an actor who truly understood how the camera perceived him. No matter what, he always understood how the camera saw him. Yep. And what was in there. And so when he would do something, like he could do something like pick up a handkerchief and you would be like, what is he doing?

[01:32:15] And then when you watch it in the dailies, you would go, oh, okay. You know, you kind of got a sense and understanding of who he felt internally who that character was in terms of like how he was going to show and be portrayed as that particular character on the show.

[01:32:38] You know, and so it was kind of one of those things where you sometimes would say, you know what, you got to let your actors do what they're going to do. And one of the things I actually learned from David was 85%. If you give 85% of the intent of the scene, we're good. That's interesting. And that's one of the things I remember.

[01:33:08] Because even now when I do my own directing, when I do my own stuff, that's one of the things I still carry with me is like that 85%. 85% because, you know, like sometimes actors are working stuff out, you know, take one, take two. But take four or five, they kind of like got that thing going on. You know, they kind of like right in that pocket at that point.

[01:33:32] And also it gives that 15%, like you said, even if you can't see it with like, especially with Yafit. I worked with him on Star Chamber before the show and a movie called Women of San Quentin. And I was very new. I was a trainee on Star Chamber. And I remember standing by the side and going, what is that guy doing? And he is so good in that movie. And you could not see it standing 10 feet away from him.

[01:33:59] But you can see it on the screen like so. So he knows, like you said, even if you're standing there going, what? I don't get what he's doing there. He knew exactly what he was doing. And it came across so well. And it's interesting because now you hear about other actors who learn, you know, they start to, like they understand what lenses do.

[01:34:23] You know, like I was hearing somebody talk about they would like work on a show with another actor and they were talking about how that actor taught them like, well, if you're on a 35 lens, think of it like this. If you're on an 80, think of it like this, you know, because this is what the camera is seeing or this is what the camera is seeing or you're right here.

[01:34:47] And it's one of those things where if an actor is unaware of what lens they're on, they're going to understand, okay, the camera is seeing all of this. Or if they're on a certain lens, the camera is only seeing this, you know. And so I think it's good that if actors understand lenses, you know, you know, I try to, it's funny because it's like as a professor, I teach my students.

[01:35:14] I say, get your, get your masters, but also get this, get your close-ups. Because a lot of my students, they're not, they're not getting the close-ups. Like, you got to get your close-ups, guys. You got to. And they'll do these side close-ups. I'm like, no. I say because when you're looking at somebody, you connect here, you connect with the face, you connect with the eyes.

[01:35:44] And when you're trying to have somebody connect with your characters on a screen, whether it's a small screen or a big screen, you got to get in here. And you got to have actors who are not afraid to be seen from here, you know. Same in documentaries. I hate it at the moment. The profile close-ups are really popular right now. And you're kind of losing the context. It was baring their soul, but they're in profile like this. It's really annoying. Yeah.

[01:36:10] You know, I remember when I did Detention, we have this one close-up of one of the actresses. And we're right here. And you can see the tears coming out of her, down her eyes. And she gives a performance. She, like, gives it and you feel it. And, you know, and the fact that after we show it, she goes, thank you.

[01:36:33] Like, she was appreciative that we kept that shot in, that we were able to, because look, the editor also changes an actor's performance, you know, and you, the editor has to put it all in. So it's like, you have all of that going on, you know, so it's like, but you got to make sure you have it. So, because the audience has to connect with something. And if you're not in the close-ups, what are you connecting with? You got to connect with people's faces.

[01:37:00] Yeah, and I hadn't thought about, you know, obviously the directors get there four days or whatever it was, you know, on Homicide in the editing suite. Did you have any input, you know, on a first cut, a final cut? Did the writers have any input? Well, obviously a lot of the writers were also producers and also showrunners. So. Yeah, they would get, I think the, like, David and Yash and Julian, I think they would get some say on, like, certain things in terms of the editing.

[01:37:29] Because I also know that they would also do, you know, spotting for music and that sort of thing on the show. So, you know, because I remember one time just hearing Yash on the spotting, he was like, we know, I want to do that. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You know, it's like you could hear them in their office explaining what they would want in a particular episode during a meeting.

[01:37:55] Like, you'd just be outside walking along the hall and you'd just, like, hear, like, little bits and pieces. And it's like you realize when you're in that environment, you're picking up so much at the same time that it's things that you carry with you into other projects.

[01:38:12] What a great environment. And so getting close to the end here, but I did want to say, Daryl, you sound like you would be a great teacher. And do you want to talk a little bit about, so you're still writing, producing, directing your own projects there in Japan, but you're also teaching at temples. So you want to talk a little bit about what you got going on now, if you want to plug something, what the teaching's like, what you're doing now.

[01:38:38] I am an assistant professor now at Temple University, Japan in Tokyo. I'm in my third year here now. And, you know, I've been to Japan for 20 years now.

[01:38:54] And so it's been, you know, you think about like, I'm this kid who grew up in what from West Baltimore and I'm now living in Japan outside. I own a house outside of Tokyo, you know, and I, you know, I teach production.

[01:39:13] And when I, I actually left, when I, you know, I was living in Japan and I went back to grad school because I'd been asked to teach. And I said, I will, you know, once I had a family, I had to figure out what plan B was going to be. And so I went back to be. And so I went back to grad school and went to Chapman University and got my master's degree so I could actually teach. And coming straight out of Chapman, I wound up teaching at Morgan State in Baltimore. And my family was still here while I was working at Morgan.

[01:39:44] And the thing is, is when, you know, I was still teaching at Morgan and then Fukushima happened, you know. And so my family, we were still, we were, they were living in Fukushima when Fukushima happened, you know. So the, you know, there was the earthquake and fortunately we weren't anywhere near the coast. So we didn't have to worry about the tsunami, but there were still concerns about the radiation stuff.

[01:40:15] And so even though I was at Morgan teaching production and, you know, film stuff, I realized like what's important. And so I decided, I said, I have to go back to Japan and I came back. And the coming to Japan story is a whole nother story. Yeah, maybe we'll do a coffee room chat about that and have another little piece about that because that's interesting stuff.

[01:40:41] But I came back and I knew that I wanted to get back into academia. And I knew that it would probably be a temple because temple is one of the few places that had some production classes, but also in English. Because I know I couldn't teach in Japanese. My Japanese is not that great. And so, but I also knew that most of the professors at temple were lifers. Like they had been there forever.

[01:41:08] So you kind of like go, oh, how do I get in? I guess I had to wait for somebody to die, retire or get fired. Fortunately, there was a fourth option that I didn't really think about. They expanded the program. And so when they expanded the program, they hired me, you know, as a professor.

[01:41:33] Because I was actually asked to do adjunct at temple, but it didn't pay a lot. Adjunct thing, you go broke. I did that adjunct thing is you go broke doing that. And so I was making more teaching English than I would have as an adjunct. And I couldn't, you know, I had to, you know, I got kids to feed. So when the opportunity came up to do full time, I started doing full time at temple, which has been great because.

[01:42:03] A lot of the lessons that I've learned through production from being a PA, from producing to writing to directing. I now bring those into the classroom. And I, you know, and I bring it in from a real world practical place. And, you know, like, for example, I tell my students all the time that you have to learn how to be collaborators.

[01:42:31] You have to learn how to work with each other, with people that you may not necessarily be the most friendliest with. And people who are your homies. You know, I said, you can have the, you know, because I've worked with some people and I was like, yeah, I'll never, I'll never work with that person again. You know, people with different points of views, people with different.

[01:42:56] I said, but those people with different points of views probably going to be some of the best people you can work with because those are the people that are going to make you think differently. You know, but I try to give them those like, you know, like life lessons so that they can understand how things work after they graduate. You know, and I tell them, I said, you, you never know where anybody in this classroom will be in another 10 years.

[01:43:22] So one of your classmates could be the person who could hire you for a job. In 10 years, I said, because I've seen it happen and I've even hired other people and I've had other people hire me. Who I've gone to school with. Yep. So much of that happened here in Baltimore. Almost everybody I went to school with at UMBC ended up in the business here and ended up hiring me later. It's huge. Right.

[01:43:46] And I said, all the part of it is, is that you just never know what, you know, if you're working on a show, you never know who's going to wind up being somewhere else. And when you get your own product, like I said, you know, I said, when I did my first film, Detention, a lot of it came about also because of the fact that I had worked as a PA on a lot of projects.

[01:44:13] Like if I hadn't worked with boots, I would have never known boots and boots, you know, come on board and work on the, on, on, you know, to shoot my feature or, you know, Debbie Young, who does, you know, makeup, who came in and brought people in. And now Debbie is, you know, like doing the makeup for Mahershala Ali Lee and Regina King, you know, and.

[01:44:38] And, you know, I remember when we did Detention that because we were in a school, you know, like some of the guys who were Grips and Electric would come in and just kind of hook us in to the power. And so you guys are good for the day. And they would go off. They're like, come in maybe for an hour, an hour and a half, hook everything up. And then they would go off and do that, go live life.

[01:45:07] You know, and I said, you know, I said, part of it was. These are people who saw me working when I wasn't doing any, you know, when I was working my butt off working on sets and now they see me actually making my own film and they came out and support it.

[01:45:26] I said, that's. And I said, you know, I said, if I wrote a book, I would call it creating cinematic capital, you know, because a lot of it is the cinematic capital is like you, you know, they talk about political capital. Well, cinematic capital is like the networks that you build as you come through the business and how you may work on somebody else's film and then eventually they work on your work.

[01:45:55] And, you know, you're kind of exchanging it because. I tell my students that I will still give you the same energy, whether you're paying me or not paying me. You know, because I've worked on a lot of stuff for free. And I still gave the same 110 percent that I gave when I was working on a show. For money. That's a very valuable lesson. That's a very valuable lesson. You know, I said because I one of the things I do is look, I love being on set.

[01:46:26] It's one of the things like I have a friend of mine who's who's a producer. He hates being on set. He just he's like, I don't want to be on set. Go. Me, I'm on set because what I've also realized is like if I'm on a set, I can pretty much see what's going on. Like I can see boom, boom, boom, boom. Now, you know, it's like I'm sure you can go on a set and you can kind of see what's happening, what's going on. And when somebody is running along, you can go, oh, he's carrying the 35, you know.

[01:46:57] But you can see what's going on set and you can kind of get a sense of what the rhythm is. And you can kind of feel where everything is at that point. Like, oh, they're about to shoot. And the dynamic. And if it's working, if it's working well, if that cooperative thing is happening or if there's some kind of stumbling block somewhere, you could see it going on.

[01:47:13] Like I feel even today, depending on who's on the set, I could probably have a good shot of approaching and walking on a set in Baltimore and probably knowing at least one or two people in that crew. Yeah, we're a lot older, but there would be one or two left, at least more than one or two probably. Yeah, like, you know, a long time ago, I remember I could go on certain shows and they would be like, I remember going to The Wire when, you know, I would come home and I would go to The Wire, you know, like, hey, Daryl, come on.

[01:47:43] How you doing? You know, come and get some craft services. There you go. Good segue, craft services. So, Chris, so this is the first of all, Daryl, thank you for spending the time. This has just been really, just really, because we haven't really, since we talked to Tom and Julie and Jorge, haven't had a chance to really get back into the writer's room. So appreciate that. And also just your personal perspective and just all the stuff that, you know, you've done since then.

[01:48:12] And so, Chris, Chris is going to throw out the surprise question. Yeah, yeah. So you've already mentioned craft services. So obviously Baltimore's famous for food and you're originally from Baltimore. But do you have any kind of food-related memories from homicide? Mmm, food from the tapioca pudding. Really? It was a Sue Gatchel who was doing craft services at the time. Yes.

[01:48:38] I remember one time I was, you know, I was at the craft service table and I was like, she said, Sue, is there any way you can get tapioca pudding? And she says, I don't know, maybe. And I think, like, the next day or the next week she had it on the table. Like, you know, it was like, I was like, oh, thank you so much. So that's a thing for you. A lot of people don't even know what that is.

[01:49:07] So that's something, did you grow up with it? Yeah. I just grew up with it. And it was just one of those little things. I was like, tapioca pudding. Yeah. I remember having that. My mom always had it in the cabinet. I don't know how much we ate it, but, you know, it was there. Yeah. For sure. And Susan was great. Susan was, Susan was probably the best craft service person I ever worked with. I mean, she just had, she just was really good at the job.

[01:49:31] And it sounds like an inconsequential job, but craft service is integral to having a happy set. Yeah. Because it's too stressful of a job and the hours are too long not to be able to have a little break and have something to keep you going. And she just always, she had fresh fruit. She had, like, mangoes and papayas. I mean, she had all, she really, she really did a great job at it. Tapioca pudding. I love that. You are the first person who said that. I hope she's doing well.

[01:50:01] Yeah. Well, this has been great. So, Chris, how are we doing? Are we good? We are pretty much good, unless there's anything else you want to add, Daryl, before we wrap up today. Yeah. You want to add anything, Daryl? You know, outside of teaching, I'm still making films. I'm working now on my next film. It's called Polaris. Oh, nice. It's a love story set between Baltimore and Japan. So, hopefully, we push back the date to 2027 summer. So, hopefully, next year, we will, as soon as we, because we got to get the financing.

[01:50:30] It's always, you know, if there's anybody out there that has financing. Do you have a GoFundMe page? Do you have, like, a crowdsourcing or anything? We actually did a Kickstarter campaign that was really successful. We just, we also had a grant from the United States Japan Foundation. And so, now we're just actually looking for funding to make the film. Like, the lead actors on board, really, really talented guy, O'Kiriete O'Naldon.

[01:50:56] He was actually part of the original cast of Hamilton and was on Station 19 and American Fiction. Speaking of Jeffrey Wright. Wow. American Fiction. Oh, I love that. That movie should have won Best Picture that year because it was the Best Picture that year. It was a great film. We just, in fact, we just watched it for a class I was teaching here in Japan. You know, because Jeffrey Wright's performance in that is just, and Sterling K. Brown, oh.

[01:51:23] The writing and the performances in that movie are, like, just as good as Homicide. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah. So, that's the thing I'm working on now is trying to get this project off the ground. And, you know, because part of it is also bringing another film, even if it's for a few days, back home into Baltimore. And then the rest of the story actually takes place here in Japan.

[01:51:47] So, it's kind of going to bridge Baltimore and Japan, you know, my two home worlds. That sounds brilliant. That sounds brilliant. Well, keep us posted and please send us links or anything we can share to help with financing, etc. And, yes, we'll definitely plug you and tell people to, you know, to throw some money at you. And also, if you're in town shooting, you know, let me know. Okay. You know, maybe I can come down to the set and do a little, you know, digital video. Well, I love that. Digital recorder. Hang out at the Daily Grind or something.

[01:52:18] That's right. Get a Granita with you. But, yeah, you know, and I'm just still writing. Like, I just finished writing a new screenplay with my students. Like, it's actually another Baltimore story. But it's kind of, it's interesting because it's like, speaking of American fiction, I always, I say this story because it takes place in Baltimore. It's set in the world of a dealer. You know, but it ain't the wire.

[01:52:48] And I always say this is probably going to be my Johnny Walker Red script. Nice. Oh, interesting. If you remember American fiction, there was Johnny Walker Red, Johnny Walker Blue, Johnny Walker Black. You know, I've written a lot of stuff that I think is probably Johnny Walker Black. This probably is going to be my closest to Johnny Walker Red. Yeah. Well, keep us posted. Let us know. And we'd love to visit.

[01:53:12] Well, I said, if anything ever, like, if somebody winds up taking that particular script and we wind up actually figuring out how we can get it made, I'm just going to post a picture of me and a bottle of Johnny Walker Red. And those who know will know why I am posting this. That's great. I love it. The production company. There you go. Johnny Walker Red. The J.W.R. Yeah.

[01:53:37] But right now I'm really working on trying to get this, the Polaris project off the ground because I think, you know, it's a really special love story and, you know, wanting to try to tell a story that, you know, it kind of goes back to the idea of showing characters, especially, you know, African-American men who are vulnerable. And things that you really rarely ever see on screen film.

[01:53:59] And, you know, the idea of finding your voice, like this story is definitely my voice in telling a story about a guy who, you know, is a chef, you know, and he's a chef who loses a sense of taste. And, you know, how, what would, you know, how do you move forward when you've lost everything that's important to you? And he comes to Japan to fulfill his father's final wish.

[01:54:25] And, you know, from there he finds, you know, something new in terms of life and moving forward. You know who would have liked that? Anthony Bourdain. That sounds like a very Bourdain kind of thing. That's brilliant. And they're making a biopic about him. Yeah. Yeah. It's out this summer. Yeah. And, you know, it was funny because, you know, one of the actors I was going to reach out to the actors I was going to reach out for for one of the roles. One of them was going to be Andre. Oh, my. Yeah.

[01:54:54] And then I was like, and then I saw that news and I was crushed. Terrible news. Yeah. And then the other person I was thinking about was Lance Reddick. Oh, right. Oh, God. Yeah. Another great actor. Yeah. Yeah. Because I found out that Lance Reddick was my godmother's cousin. No. Wow. And we shared, me and Lance Reddick shared the same birthday. And I never got a chance to work with him or meet him.

[01:55:23] I'm sorry. So, you know. Okay. Well, this has been. No, it's great. No, this is, I mean, like we could go on, we could go on for eight hours. You're just like, I mean, just, this has just really been terrific. Thanks for the time. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank you. Happy to have you back on if you ever want to come back on. But, Daryl, thank you. Yes. And keep us posted. You got stuff going on. We'll let people know about it. And definitely if you're in town, let me know.

[01:55:52] And you can always find me on the socials. I'm always talking about stuff on the socials. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I keep up with you on Facebook for sure. Yeah. Well, I'm on Facebook. And my last name is on the Bird app and the Thread app and the Insta app. Cool, cool. Well, Daryl, thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Hey,よろしく onigashimasu.

[01:56:35] So that was Daryl. And what an interview that was. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Susan, anything stand out for you? First of all, what a wide-ranging conversation. To talk about how he got into the business, what he was initially interested in. That I think, like Alan Taylor, the director we had on recently, was originally a history major. And then ended up deciding to be not just a filmmaker, but specifically a screenwriter.

[01:57:06] And I love the story of he did not get into the film production major at Ithaca College. And so he cobbled together basically a film major. He took all the classes he could take as minors, kept his history major, stayed in the program that he created for himself. Yeah. And I just thought that was an inspiration to people.

[01:57:33] You know, if you go to a school that doesn't per se have a major or you're not accepted to the major, just barrel ahead and put your own program together. A lot of colleges, like when I did my master's, you know, they have independent sort of, I don't even know if they're called independent study anymore,

[01:57:54] but opportunities where you can, for a semester, you know, make your own way, make your own class, your own program of what you want to produce. And then the fact that he produced a film there, even though he wasn't a film major and it wasn't required. And also to remind young people that in that situation, so even though it wasn't required, he took the opportunity while he had, you know,

[01:58:23] while he had the access to production equipment to make a film, even though it wasn't required for his major, and then entered that into film festivals. Now, people may forget about film festivals, may think that film festivals aren't important, that don't go to film festivals in their towns. But he got recognized, that film, his first film got recognized at film festivals, which helped him to get on his way with meeting new people

[01:58:52] and understanding sort of the broader context of the industry. So that's another thing for people to remember. You know, you may think, oh, well, nobody's going to care about my little film. I actually was cleaning out my office and I came across the comments from the Baltimore Film Festival. I had submitted a film. I'd made a documentary about my grandfather when I was in college. I followed him around with a little boulier handheld camera. He actually did not even know I was there doing it.

[01:59:21] Great camera, by the way. Lovely cameras. So I loved that. Everybody else hated that camera. And I was the only person, one of the only people that used the boulier. I loved it. I loved the little French camera. Have one at university. They're really cool. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's why I loved Aton so much because they were French too, weren't they? But, you know, it was nice to go back and look at those comments. And there were some people like, oh, bad lighting. Oh, bad sound. But they talked about the warmth of the subject matter came through.

[01:59:51] So, you know, keep in mind that you can, as somebody, if you feel like a nobody, right, get your film made in college or high school or wherever and get it out there. You have no idea who that's going to connect with and what that connection is going to do for you later in your career. Hmm. Yeah. It's so important, actually, not to try and give people a reason to say no. I think it's very important just to put your best foot out there, see what happens.

[02:00:21] Don't try and sort of fill in the gaps for people by thinking, oh, well, nobody's going to want to watch my film. Who knows? You never know. And you never know who is watching your film. And also, I mean, like, I think one of the things I learned in life a little bit, I was listening back to this interview with Daryl, and he made a very good point. You know, your classmates, your friends you meet early on in your career might well become key collaborators or key decision makers in the future. You never know.

[02:00:47] Your classmate, Timmy or whatever their name is, might become the head of Universal Pictures or something. And that could become significant for you one day when you're doing a pitch to, I don't know, make Odyssey 2 or something, the sequel. You never know. I don't know. On IMAX, but yeah, you know, you never know. And also the other thing I've learned in film production is obviously you meet people who are in different roles. And I do my best to treat everybody equally.

[02:01:16] And I have met and seen some people who see somebody as lesser than them and they treat them that way. And I think that's terrible because the person who's, shall we say, sweeping the floor one day, again, could be the head of Universal Pictures in a few years. You have no idea. Yeah. And I think it's just good humanity to sort of treat everybody with respect, really. So not just because you don't know where they'll be. They may never become anybody important in your life, but it's always good to treat people with respect in the industry. So, yeah.

[02:01:45] Sorry, I went off on a bit of a tangent there. But, you know, and the other thing is, well, so as we air this in the UK, it's exam results time. And just kind of going on what you were saying just a moment ago about like how Daryl created his own film major. So I was filming a few years ago at my old sixth form college, which I believe in America would be senior high, which is the step before you go to university stroke college, I think, as you call university in the States. Lots of confusing terms there.

[02:02:13] But what struck me when filming, because we were filming just before, again, the exams and I think the educational system kind of puts you in a very funny mindset about how, you know, there's a path from A to B and it's a very linear path. But in reality, it's not always that linear. And like with what Daryl did, he didn't get on the program he wanted to do.

[02:02:36] So rather than giving up and taking it as a failure or, you know, the system saying, oh, I'm not cut out for this, he worked around it. And in fact, by taking his history major like he did, in a way, actually, as he put it, it improved his writing. It improved his writing. It gave him a depth of knowledge about how to research things, understand historical and factual context.

[02:03:01] And that totally informed an episode of Homicide that he wrote, Sins of the Father, which we talk about. And he didn't know that when he was studying at Ithaca, did he, as a student? But over time, these things happen. So, you know, so don't, if you're listening to this and you kind of like maybe haven't had the exam results you want, don't fret because there's always another way. If you really want to do something, you can always find a way to do it. And some of the most successful film directors never even actually formally studied film.

[02:03:32] Like Christopher Nolan, who I sort of joke about a moment ago of Odyssey. I mean, he actually studied English literature and did a similar thing to Daryl where he did films as a kind of minor on his course and got access to equipment and did things in his weekend and his spare time. I mean, I remember when I got started, I was working at a startup production company and I had to do a part-time job as well.

[02:03:53] So my part-time job on my lunch break, I was like producing music videos via phone, sorting things out and then selling phones during the day. And then in the evening, kind of carrying on with this thing. And then in my days, I wasn't working in the phone shop. I was actually, you know, at this production company. So it was all pretty crazy. But you can kind of get away with that stuff in your 20s. By the time you're going to get to your late 30s and 40s, it gets a bit exhausting, but you can still do it in your 40s or 50s. You know, as long as you have that ambition, you can kind of do whatever you want, really.

[02:04:24] It just might take a bit longer than you expected. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd piggyback off that, what you said about the people that you go to school with might end up being people that can hire you later or, you know, colleagues in the industry. And I would say they will. Some of them absolutely will be people out there in the industry.

[02:04:48] And I'm specifically talking about film and television production because I don't know what, you know, what it's like if you're a financial advisor. You know, I don't know that. But I know for me, and especially maybe in smaller markets. So, you know, I went to school at UMBC. Daryl went to school here at City College and then left to go to Ithaca.

[02:05:09] And when I came out and then I moved to L.A. and came back, everybody, pretty much literally everybody that was in the major with me at UMBC was in production here. Yeah. And like four phone calls later, I got a job here in Baltimore. Now, we were a really tight group. So I don't think there were any people that I treated shabbily back then because it was a great program, a great bunch of people.

[02:05:36] But then also what you said about treating people nicely, if it happens to be somebody below you. The first film I worked on here, The House on Sorority Row, and I mean the original House on Sorority Row, not the remake of The House on Sorority Row, which is funny. Like things I worked on are having remakes already. Oh, yeah. Must be weird. But the original House on Sorority Row, which was shot here, I started out as a PA, but I did not start out as a camera person. And was literally what you said, the person sweeping up the set.

[02:06:05] I was sweeping ashes, you know, into a dust pan out of the fireplaces, cleaning up the rooms in this old mansion we were working on. And one of the producers said to me one day, kind of snarkily, like, why are you working for free? You know, he's kind of snarky about it. I was like, because if I wasn't working for free, I wouldn't be here. And then I initially, then I got the chance to be, I gave him my camera resume and I got on the camera crew.

[02:06:30] So it does, it absolutely can be launching pads and don't undersell yourself, you know, when you're in those starting out positions. Because it can really, really lead. And I think in Daryl's case, you can see how it led, it led to so many different things. I mean, he had a little acting part in Gettysburg and he had an acting part in Homicide.

[02:06:53] And then the story of him telling Tom, you know, I'm going to write a script on spec and gives to Tom. And then Daryl's not on the show anymore. And when he comes back to visit every time he sees Tom, Tom's like, okay, it's still in my pile of stuff. I'm going to read it. I'm going to read it. And then when he reads it, he doesn't just, and I love that because it's so true, because we undersell ourselves. You know, Daryl was like, I was only expecting like, hey, you know, a little direction. This part's good. This part's not.

[02:07:23] Rewrite this. This is working. This isn't working. For this show, you know, it should be this way. The beats should happen this way. The tone should be this way. But Tom didn't do that. He offers him a job as a staff writer. I mean, you probably could have pushed over Daryl with a feather when that happened. But a lot of that is because here you have somebody who's working hard, who has integrity, who's been listening, who's been learning.

[02:07:45] His whole, the whole time when he initially got interested in film and screenwriting, he was learning and pushing toward that goal. And people recognized that. And Tom recognized that. And once again, you know, the incubator, the whole mentorship-ness that was happening on this show to bring him in as a staff writer.

[02:08:10] I mean, that's just a really great illustration of how you can work your way up into the business and you meet the right people and keep working hard. Now, obviously, it doesn't happen for everyone. But I know for many people, I know it did because we had the passion to just forge ahead, even when, you know, people might doubt that we would be able to do what we wanted to do. Yeah.

[02:08:39] Writing's a very tricky art to learn. And I can't say I'm an expert on it. I'm still figuring it out. But one of the things I picked up from the interview is the importance of voice and voice really equals perspective, in my view. It's sort of like your thoughts and feelings on something and it's informed. And, you know, I think Daryl's script, if I remember correctly, was sort of based on some early experiences of his own. And that's sort of why it appealed to Tom.

[02:09:07] Whilst, you know, it can be very easy to just... The mistake I think a lot of maybe young writers make is, A, we read all these books about screenwriting and they claim that by page 15, something's got to happen. And by page 38, this is going to happen. And again, it's just like from what I'm finding from my journey in writing, it's not quite as straightforward as that. I know in TV, there are certain structures that you're going to get to certain ad breaks and things like that. That's slightly different, I suppose.

[02:09:34] But you be careful about so-called rules of screenwriting because it can lead to some very generic stuff. I think really the best writing comes from sincerity and perspective and sort of knowing something about something and using that as a gateway, which is what Daryl kind of did with Sins of the Father.

[02:09:54] You know, he used historical research to kind of inform this sort of fictional story that led to being a very interesting and very relevant episode to Homicide that's still relevant now, you know. So, so interesting. And the number one rule, he said, was... Number one rule to writing, he said, was don't be boring. So take that with you. Take that with you. I'm still learning that one. Yeah. And that he, while he was still in college, he went to one of his writing professors and said, I want to write a screenplay.

[02:10:24] And they were sort of poo-pooed. He was sort of poo-pooed, you know, as screenwriting not being a legitimate form of, you know, whatever, artistic or creative writing. And, you know, and he convinced his professor by saying, look, you know, there's drama, there's character development, there's, you know, all the things that you have in a novel, you know. Totally. Or other kinds of writing are there.

[02:10:48] And, you know, that he looked at it from that perspective and then was able to do that and, you know, wrote his screenplay and made his film. And I also did want to mention that while he was working with us on Homicide, we, and maybe I knew at the time, I don't remember, were selling him at the time what was called short ends, when people actually shot things on film. So he was very industrious in that way.

[02:11:17] He's, look, look, I'm going to, you know, buy the short ends, get the film at a really low price and be able to shoot my film. So he shot his film, Detention, from the 16 millimeter film he bought from working on Homicide.

[02:11:31] So this whole chain link of events that happened and him being incredibly resourceful and having a lot of integrity and moving forward and getting to where he wanted to be, you know, in a very creative ways, you know, to get to get to what Daryl, you know, wanted to be and still wants to be. You know, as a filmmaker, you know, he's now producer, director and also a professor at, you know, at Temple.

[02:12:00] So I thought that was cool. And then I also didn't know that Boots, our camera assistant on Homicide, also shot, was the DP, the director of photography slash cinematographer on Daryl's film Detention. So that must have, we must have, they must have done that during hiatus.

[02:12:18] But yeah, and then to be able to take all those talents and like you mentioned earlier, Chris, you know, his history background, but also his passion and his care and his love of things and his love of family and his love of, you know, the background of where he came from comes out in the episode that he wrote,

[02:12:37] Sins of the Father, and becomes a really heartfelt, meaningful, emotional, difficult story to watch and listen to.

[02:12:55] Because it's basically, it's sort of a revenge, spoiler alert, it's a revenge plot, the plot of the episode is a sort of generational revenge for the treatment of a black family in Baltimore and how this particular character seeks and completes his retribution.

[02:13:23] Contribution on the descendants of a white family who hurt his family generations prior. You know, and we talked about this during the episode, the idea of, you know, homicide always surprised you with who was paired with who, the 180 degree opposites, the opinions that you could never bank on.

[02:13:46] You could never bank that one of the characters was stereotypically going to react to something in a way you would expect him to because they were white or black or whatever their background was. Yeah, this episode in particular is so good at illustrating that. It's brilliant. Yeah, such a good bit of writing. Yeah. So I would tell everybody, go watch, get on Peacock, go watch Sins of the Father. Oh, you can't, it's already over.

[02:14:14] You have to look at the schedule on Charge and wait for it to come up there or go on Amazon. But yeah. Or is Charge showing them in actual chronological order? It appears to be. So from looking at Charge today, by the time this episode comes out, I think they'll be on about somewhere between through season three. But because looking at it today, they were just going back into season two and it appeared to be in chronological order or at least in order of transmission. Right. Yeah. Keep your eye out for that or jump over to Amazon.

[02:14:43] Not that I'm plugging Amazon, but go, I think, $1.99 an episode and take a look at that after you listen to, you know, to Daryl's story. I think it's really interesting. Fun Amazon fact for me, my first ever purchase on Amazon was David Simon's Humicide. And it's funny, I went into my history not long ago and there it is. Oh my gosh, it's in your history after all this year? Yeah. Wow. It is in my history from the summer of 2001.

[02:15:10] So it was even prior to 9-11 I purchased that book. Can you imagine? And the world has changed a lot since I read that book. It was funny because I can't remember who it was we were talking to. I think it must have been our next interview. We were talking about when you read the book. And I only read the book after watching the show. And it's funny how when reading the book, you see how much of series one is virtually verbatim taken from the book itself. Oh gosh, yeah. In places, yeah, yeah.

[02:15:40] But anyway, that's a whole other topic for another time. So yeah, great interview really, I thought. A really good interview. Terrific career path. Terrific inspiration for anybody listening. Because of course now you don't have to buy short ends from the production you're working on. You can go shoot something on your phone. Yeah, or have a digital memory card like that for your camera. But yeah. So let's wrap up, Susan.

[02:16:06] So you had some little thing you wanted to mention about you were doing a clear out and you found an article in the Baltimore Sun, didn't you? Yeah, I found a Baltimore Sun article titled, Homicide Actors Deliver an Arresting Performance. Shoplift Suspects Surrenders to Pair Portraying Officers. And so this story has been retold and told and retold. I just wanted to confirm that according to Richard Irwin, who wrote the original piece in the sun,

[02:16:33] the guy that shoplifted around the corner at the convenience store was carrying $100 worth of Polaroid film, which I think is really funny that he's stealing film and runs onto a film set. But this is the story about the guy who runs onto the film set. And just to confirm, it was Richard Belzer and Clark Johnson who were standing over a perp with their fake guns drawn, you know, for the scene.

[02:17:00] And this guy who actually just committed a crime runs around the corner and up the alley and basically stops and gives up. He stops and says, oh, no, and dropped his bags. So that was a confirmation on where it was and what it was and that he was carrying film. If the thief is out there somehow listening to this or anybody knows him, I'd love to hear from him and get his side of the story. That would be fun.

[02:17:29] See if he's become a fan of the show since then. You know, note to thieves, know who your local fictional detectives are. And then we were talking, it says, after wrapping up the arrest scene, Belzer Johnson and the crew moved to railroad tracks next to Pennsylvania Station, where they filmed another scene. And then we were trying to figure out which episode that was, where they're chasing the perp who was hiding out in a room off of, you know, like a maintenance room because a friend set him up there.

[02:17:58] But then he disappears. And then also this little tidbit at the very end of this article says, yesterday was the second time the TV show played a role in an arrest. Last spring, a purse snatch suspect was arrested by city police providing security when he ran onto the set on South Broadway in Fells Point. So that might be the ones differing stories then. There's been two incidents. Said Jeff Gordon and assistant prop manager.

[02:18:26] So that may have happened sort of not, they didn't, he didn't run into where we were shooting, but sort of ran onto the cordoned off area of the set. And one of our off-duty cops working as security or one of our security guards. But, and that says, according to Jeff Gordon. So Jeff Gordon, if you're out there, I know you're out there. Confirm that. Yeah. Yeah. And then the other little thing I found, it's amazing the things you find when you clean out your office is a photocopied,

[02:18:56] little handwritten note from Barry Levinson. It has a staple mark in it. So I assume it was stapled to our call sheet. And I can't tell you, I wish, you know, when you're saving stuff, write the, write the date on it. Cause I don't know the date of the sun article unless I look it up online. And I don't know the date of this, but this is a lovely note. And so it's on Barry Levinson's stationary and it says cast and crew.

[02:19:23] It's obviously a big question mark when it comes to the time slots, the rating points, the demographics, and the network stats. But there is no question about the quality of the work. Everyone can be proud of that. It doesn't happen very often that the writing, the directing, the acting, and all the technical aspects come together. That is a great accomplishment. So whatever the numbers you've won, signed Barry Levinson.

[02:19:53] So that was a nice little shot in the arm, you know, I think for the crew. And who knows at what point we were always worried about ratings. We were always worried about whether we were getting picked up. And I don't know if anybody out there knows at what point, maybe somebody in the production office might know, was that at one point where the axe was hanging over our necks? Or was it just early on when we were fighting for ratings? I don't know. But that's just a lovely note from, you know, the co-creator of the show

[02:20:20] who is telling everybody what a great job we're doing, regardless of whether we're getting, you know, industry recognition for it. Of course, we did get critical acclaim. And we just never got the numbers. But who was it that pointed out John Seda or somebody pointed out like, but yeah, we were still on for seven seasons. You know, it wasn't a one or two season pop. We managed to hang on there. In this day and age, it would have, unfortunately,

[02:20:48] like the way Netflix runs things, a show like this probably would have been canceled by season two. And it's so sad because a lot of shows are just not given that room to breathe unless it's so critically acclaimed that somehow it makes the right people look good. But a show like Homicide Today, I think, might struggle a little bit. And also because it's so a bit left field because it's not a straight conventional cop drama like Nash Bridges, which we talk about in the episode, you know.

[02:21:16] And I think airing the show on a Friday night is probably a bad idea. It's more of a Wednesday or a Thursday show where you want something a bit more thoughtful, at least I do. Usually by Friday or Saturday, I just want rando stuff on where I can not really concentrate that much. Bubba hour. Is that what Darrell called? Yeah, the Bubba hour. Just come home and put your feet up and crack a beer and watch some entertaining stuff you don't have to think about. Yeah, and Nash Bridges was perfect for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Homicide was entertaining.

[02:21:44] Like you had said one day, you were watching it laughing and your wife asked, like, what are you laughing? What are you watching? Like, I'm watching Homicide. Homicide because it was funny, too. Yeah, it's hilarious. I love it. Clever and all those things. Yeah, to be fair, actually. I mean, it used to be on, when I was a teenager, it used to be on Saturday nights as a double bill. So, you know, yeah. So, I don't know. Double bill? What was the double bill? As in when they showed two episodes back to back. Oh, not the double billed with another show.

[02:22:13] No, no, no, no, no. Just the double bill Homicide. So, they cranked through quite a few episodes. I remember it was like the summer of 98. Gosh. Summer of 98. Yeah, and they were, and I always remember the episodes set at the school. That's always the one that I've, and the documentary. I just remember watching. You know, when you just, certain episodes you remember watching. Those two I remember watching. So, it's like, you know, other episodes are a bit more blurry. You know. Yeah, it's so funny how memory works and doesn't work.

[02:22:43] And as you get older, you think, why didn't I, like, as you were saying, why didn't you note down the date of the article? I've been looking through some old photos. You're like, why didn't I do this, do that? Why didn't I label this folder properly so I knew what year it was photographed? You know, stuff like that. So, there we are. So, messages to your future selves, label things properly. Well, I think on that note, I think we should wrap up. But is there anything else you'd like to add, Susan? No, terrific. Thanks again to Daryl. And hopefully, we will have them on again. And to everyone out there, keep listening.

[02:23:11] And also, to all our guests that I assume some of our guests, our former guests, listen occasionally to. Let us know when they have new projects going on and new things happening. Yes, keep us posted. That we can mention and point people to. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Totally. Because, yeah, it's nice to see when actors from Humicider and other shows. I've certainly seen Reed Diamond's popped up on quite a few things over the years. You see various people. I was just watching an old episode of The Equalizer and John Pulito was in it. So, I'm like, oh, wow.

[02:23:40] And Melissa Leo was in an episode as well. She was very young in that episode playing the daughter of a Russian defector. So, you know. And she was like a Russian ballerina. So, you know, you never know where you spot people. You don't. And I was watching, I was actually watching a different Western last night called Reprisal, which was a terribly, like, cheap B-Western, but was very socially conscious about Native Americans, even though there were no Native Americans in it.

[02:24:09] You know, they were all played by white people. Anyway, the movie that came off after that, which I've mentioned to you before, called Five Card Stud with Dean Martin and Robert Mitchum and Roddy McDowell and Yafit Kodo. Oh, yeah. It's called Five Card Stud. I believe it was made in, like, 1968. All those huge stars. And it starts out with a poker game.

[02:24:34] And the first time I watched it, this black man comes in and serves the guys at the poker table. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait a minute, wait. That was Yafit. And he has a fairly large part in it. And it's worth watching to see him because he's this tall, gorgeous young man. And but that's how far back some of these, this is how deep we talked about this in this episode,

[02:25:01] the deep careers that these actors had and how long they'd been around and the kind of really broad acting experience that they had, theatrical film. I mean, just really an amazing cast. So thanks to Daryl for coming on because, you know, he reminded us of many of those points of what made the show so special. Yeah.

[02:25:30] Thank you so much, Daryl. Well, that's us done for this episode. So thank you, everybody, for listening. Don't forget you can buy us a coffee at buymeacoffee.com forward slash homicide. Is it PLQ? I've lost track of what it is now. Buymeacoffee.com forward slash homicide POQ. POQ, that's it. Not PLQ. POQ. So there we are. Instead of pod, it's POC for some reason.

[02:26:00] It's POC. POC. Homicide POC. Oh, dear. Oh, well, there we go. It's pod in another language. But anyway, I'm just going to know which language it is. There we go. So thank you, everybody, for listening. Have a wonderful summer and we will catch you in September. See you soon. Bye for now.