S1 Ep3: Kyle Secor, Detective. Tim Bayliss

[00:00:15] Welcome to Homicide Life On The Set, a podcast about the Emmy Award-winning television show

[00:00:20] Homicide Life On The Street with myself Chris Carr and Susan Ingram.

[00:00:25] On today's podcast we're joined by actor Carl Seacour who played Detective Tim Bayless

[00:00:37] and on this episode Carl shares his memories of working on the show both as an actor and a director

[00:00:42] and what it was like working with the late Andre Brown who played his on-screen partner Detective Frank Pendleton.

[00:01:05] Hello everybody and welcome to Homicide Life On The Set. Susan how are you doing?

[00:01:11] Hello, hi Chris looking forward to talking about this episode with Kyle.

[00:01:16] Yeah well if people haven't guessed already we have Tim Bayless himself Carl Seacour

[00:01:22] he's here today to join us to talk about his time on Homicide and I think it's a very

[00:01:28] interesting chat lots of interesting pieces that we will reflect on after the conversation.

[00:01:32] Susan was there something you wanted to say before we kept going?

[00:01:35] Yes I did want to dedicate this episode to my mom Margaret Ingram who was a great fan of the show

[00:01:44] and was really really looking forward to listening but unfortunately she died

[00:01:50] just a few days before we spoke to Kyle I think less than a week

[00:01:56] and was also a week and a half or so before we aired our first episode.

[00:02:03] She was particularly fond of the partnership between Kyle and Andre Brower

[00:02:09] who she had great admiration for both of them and she had met Andre because Andre attended

[00:02:16] the first Unitarian Church where my parents went so the Kyle episode I know she would have

[00:02:23] particularly been interested in hearing and hearing about him and hearing about his

[00:02:28] relationship and working relationship with Andre. Other than that she was a great fan

[00:02:38] all the way through of the show and thought it was terrific and intelligent so this is dedicated

[00:02:44] to you mom hope you're listening. Thank you for sharing that Susan and I'm very sorry for your

[00:02:51] loss. Okay everybody we're going to move into our interview with Kyle Seacour I hope you enjoy

[00:02:57] this one. Kyle welcome to Homicide Life on the sets our brand new podcast it's great to have you on.

[00:03:22] Oh it's really great to be here I was so excited to hear from Susan and I've been

[00:03:27] hearing from a lot of homicide people since you know December and you know Andre died

[00:03:33] so it's been really it's good to kind of come on and do this definitely. Yeah yeah and we just

[00:03:39] passed I think the 30th anniversary of the show's starting as well haven't we?

[00:03:44] Sorry to make you feel better. No we didn't it's only been five years hasn't it?

[00:03:50] Which was crazy because when Chris and I started talking about this

[00:03:54] we didn't that didn't even register that it was the 30th anniversary and he contacted me

[00:03:59] just about a year ago last year 2023 which would have been the 30th anniversary year and we sort of

[00:04:08] happened stance started talking about doing a podcast and then all of a sudden it starts hitting

[00:04:13] the New York Times that's all you got interviewed for the New York Times for it's the 30th anniversary.

[00:04:18] Yeah I mean it's wild because I mean truly I don't you know right after

[00:04:25] homicide ended I I met the woman that I would eventually marry and had kids and I haven't had

[00:04:35] really a lot of time I don't think about homicide an awful lot I never really went back and watched

[00:04:39] episodes I didn't you know I stayed in contact with a couple of people through the years but

[00:04:45] didn't really think about it too much until like an interview would come up or something and then

[00:04:49] I'd scramble and go what were those episodes that they want to know were the best episodes ever

[00:04:54] I don't know so I would like kind of you know so that's what happened with when you contact me and

[00:04:59] send me all these questions I was just like wow this is really I don't remember anything

[00:05:05] but that was so it's crazy my mind about the sequence of episodes and certain things are just

[00:05:13] a jumble and the questions that you had also asked about you know shooting styles and such

[00:05:18] like that and I had just kind of basically forgotten other than we we shot really cool and really fast

[00:05:26] that's it so when you but but I've educated myself in the past few days ask away right absolutely

[00:05:33] Carl how did you kind of get started into acting in the film business yeah so I um I came

[00:05:39] from a place called federal way Washington which if you haven't heard about it um that's all right

[00:05:45] neither is most people and that's so I started there and uh I got uh I had I was you know my big

[00:05:52] thing is I was going to be a pizza maker for the rest of my life I was worked at a place called

[00:05:56] shaky's pizza and assistant manager and I was working my way up at shaky's and then I went and

[00:06:01] saw a friend of mine from high school in a in a play at this community college and uh and I went

[00:06:08] wow that used to be a lot of fun and there was you know there was I was there was a lot of very

[00:06:14] beautiful women in there and he was great and so I went oh that's what I'm going to do having no clue

[00:06:20] no clue how to do it how to get about we didn't have you know there was no internet there was no

[00:06:26] there's no clue there was no one from my hometown whoever

[00:06:30] went on and became an actor yeah um in anything I think of any significance and uh and I just

[00:06:38] went okay I'll do that and that's what I did and I came down to Los Angeles and because I

[00:06:43] didn't have a plan and because I just you know had some ideal about you know learning how to be an

[00:06:49] actor it took me about six or seven years before I got my first gig in Los Angeles and um and yeah

[00:06:57] so that's how I went about it just sort of you know kind of stumbling into learning how to do

[00:07:04] these things on my own I didn't you know I'd go to certain classes and such um and um

[00:07:10] you know just kind of came up with you know a way of working that was helpful at a certain point

[00:07:16] yeah excellent excellent and so how did you end up on homicide life on the streets

[00:07:22] so I had done um St. Elsewhere with Tom and it was the last season of St. Elsewhere which was a

[00:07:27] great it was just a great season and uh and um and he had called he had wanted me to or

[00:07:37] I'd been called in for this audition and I went in and I auditioned for Danny Baldwin's character

[00:07:44] interesting and I and I and I went oh I'm completely wrong for this okay and then I went

[00:07:50] it then I went over to um Germany to go study some more because I was always studying I

[00:07:58] always wanted to pick up things I was over in Germany studying and uh they called me over in

[00:08:03] Germany I had no clue how they got a hold of me and said they want you back here to uh as a call

[00:08:09] back for another character and I said I'm studying and I was kind of on a track just to do movies

[00:08:15] I thought of myself as a film actor no one says that anymore these days it's just it just it

[00:08:20] doesn't make any sense you can't now right and um so I stayed over in Germany as long as possible

[00:08:28] and came back and was you know sure that it had gone away and then I got a call and they

[00:08:32] said oh come in and we want you to read for this and I thought it was the Danny Baldwin character

[00:08:37] again so I was all I went okay I'll come in I didn't really want to do it I didn't want to do tv

[00:08:42] I came in they said oh no not that character this character here look over these sides and

[00:08:47] and then you'll read in about five minutes so I gave this reading and I thought I was horrible

[00:08:55] um and and then someone gave me David Simon's book to read and I read the book and I went what

[00:09:03] that's not what detectives do that's not they do that they talk like regular human beings and

[00:09:09] they have these concerns about their lives and about they talk this way in front of corpses

[00:09:14] oh no so I read it and I thought okay I said um I still don't want to do tv

[00:09:22] but this thing wouldn't go beyond one season it's just it's that's too good so then I was called back

[00:09:28] in again to meet with Tom and Barry Levinson um and I thought oh this is just to kind of discuss

[00:09:34] things and um and they they they offered me the role of Tim Bayless in the room and Tom said

[00:09:43] he said oh by the way in the sixth episode um it's just going to be you and two other guys

[00:09:51] in an interrogation room and okay so the actor in me just goes what wow I'm in and like the

[00:09:59] calculations were going on this won't go beyond one season I get to do this amazing episode and

[00:10:04] then go back and do my film career thing that I was on a track for and so that's that's how I got

[00:10:12] involved with coming to do homicide there was no other than him offering that little carrot

[00:10:19] um that was my reason for coming and then I saw all of the actors that they got that they

[00:10:25] had pulled in and it was just a you know when we got to Baltimore it was just a whole other

[00:10:32] world and education and interesting that you said it was um it wasn't going to last

[00:10:37] past the season because when when when when Barry picked up the book and apparently pitched it

[00:10:43] to Tom and said I want to do a cop show with no gun battles and no car chases and Tom is like what

[00:10:52] that's never going to go anywhere right which it almost didn't and and obviously it did yeah and

[00:10:57] having it hold on for seven seasons it's kind of well that's what it was it was like there was a

[00:11:04] lots of tight gripping on for every time because I don't know if we ever were given more than

[00:11:10] you know here's a few episodes here and there and then all of a sudden then we started getting full

[00:11:13] seasons but it was always I believe a struggle on Tom's part because we just didn't have people

[00:11:19] didn't know what to make of the show but the people that did know what to make of the show

[00:11:24] became the rabid fans of whatever however many million that was but um yeah and there was

[00:11:31] always that chatter when it came around to renewal time you know we would we'd be all

[00:11:35] day on the set wondering whether we had a job and in our next season for sure yeah it's funny yeah I

[00:11:42] was it I remember um I was at a oh this is just anyway I was at a yoga retreat again going off

[00:11:49] somewhere else to get away from and I was up in up outside of Helena Montana and it was at that

[00:11:55] time that we were figuring out if we were coming back for I think it was the second or the

[00:11:59] third season something like that and I was like always like getting out of a pose going to get on

[00:12:06] the phone and I was really at that point so it must have been the third season so I I was really

[00:12:11] now I was kind of committed to the show and to the cast and crew and and I really wanted it to

[00:12:17] go on because I saw it was a I thought incredible value and I remember just he and I Tom and I

[00:12:22] must have had like four or five conversations with me going did did we get the pickup

[00:12:27] I don't know go back into downward facing dog I can see why you became the

[00:12:36] zen detective and was it season seven I think yeah something like that yeah they they picked our minds

[00:12:43] all of us for everything you know for all sorts of things to see where they could take storylines

[00:12:48] yeah oh interesting your characters was he inspired by one of the real detectives is that right is

[00:12:54] that what they were kind of looking for or yeah yeah he was it was um uh the character in the book

[00:12:59] or the real person in the book is Tom Pellegrino right Pellegrino I couldn't remember it right

[00:13:05] and Tom was a pretty remarkable guy who was when the Adina Watson in the in the book it's another

[00:13:13] it's there's another name it's the real name but the adina Watson case he was pretty uh it

[00:13:19] never got solved and that affected his life in a very um heavy somewhat detrimental in some aspects

[00:13:28] I mean he continued being a detective but it always you know haunted him and um and and meeting him

[00:13:35] was just key for me and there was um and he had the the uh in the first episode he and the way

[00:13:44] I remembered it was different I thought he just showed up on the set but they gave him a role

[00:13:50] in the first episode when we discover the young girl's body okay yeah so and I've completely

[00:13:57] forgotten about that uh and he made it his job in between setups to because it was raining

[00:14:05] lot of rain to keep her dry and I was just like sitting back watching him and seeing his concern

[00:14:12] and seeing that there was a toll that had been taken and that this was some I don't know it was

[00:14:18] something where he was going to do something to make it better by just by keeping a young actress

[00:14:26] dry he was connecting on a different level than than an actor on the street right completely

[00:14:32] wow and I didn't work on the first season so I did not know that he was in that uh in

[00:14:40] that episode I've got to go back and look at that again yeah and I'm not sure I'm not sure if he came

[00:14:45] back after the first season he was there at least on the set three or four times um in different

[00:14:53] episodes uh and he and I had lunch together and we talked a lot about his life and stuff so for me

[00:14:59] it was like a really great um insight into his uh psyche did you do any ride-alongs or anything

[00:15:07] with detectives uh yeah well the first night all of us were there and I was trying to think about

[00:15:15] wow did they get a van or something and like throw us all in a van we went to a dinner with

[00:15:20] david simon and a couple of other people and then afterwards simon took us all maybe it was in a van

[00:15:26] maybe it was a couple of cars but we were all huddled into one thing and he took us to some

[00:15:31] of these areas in baltimore where the crimes that he had been writing about um and that you know the

[00:15:39] the kind of the drug alleys and things like that so he took us in like the first night took us in

[00:15:45] some of the sketchiest areas of baltimore wow and he just pointed things out to us and things

[00:15:49] were happening all around us um and he would just point out and talk us through it and so that

[00:15:56] I considered that sort of the first ride-along and I can't remember any other ride-along I went on

[00:16:05] although I probably did because there were plenty of initially there were plenty of officers around

[00:16:11] on the set um to talk to us but the last season I directed an episode about um uh female gangs

[00:16:19] and they I went on ride-alongs with the uh some officers to different areas that

[00:16:27] our crew wasn't even allowed to go to there were like there were what we felt were the really bad

[00:16:33] areas and then there were the the sixth level of hell areas in baltimore that you just you

[00:16:39] couldn't shoot in you couldn't because it was just so dangerous and so that's I got a ride-along

[00:16:44] there and got to um and they talked a lot about the gangs in specifically the baltimore area

[00:16:50] and female gangs and things like that with me so that was really fascinating and sad and tragic and

[00:16:56] the whole yeah I just rewatched that last night that's a great episode and we'll talk about it a

[00:17:02] little more later when we get to talking to you about from the directing point of view but

[00:17:07] okay yeah yeah boy I haven't seen that one in a long long time that was a good one yeah

[00:17:11] yeah that was a tough one part of what um what uh at least tom and some of the other people were

[00:17:17] happy we were doing this podcast was because you can't you said you you couldn't watch the episodes

[00:17:22] well you can't it's not streaming anywhere the only way I got to rewatch part of them was

[00:17:28] I got it from my local library and then tom sent me the the dbd's of course you can buy the

[00:17:32] dbds but obviously it's not it's not readily available so hopefully that maybe this'll

[00:17:37] it'll help get a little more um you know fire under the pot yeah yeah and I have got that dvd set

[00:17:43] that I never got into and it's now packed away someplace I've got the massive box set as well

[00:17:52] hopefully keep our fingers crossed something this year well yeah I'm just shocked it's not streaming

[00:17:59] anywhere considering the because rewatching the show I rewatched the show fully about

[00:18:04] nearly four years ago and I've just been rewatching certain episodes for this but um

[00:18:08] I'm just amazed by the relevance of it even now um and I think Susan and I were saying about how it

[00:18:14] doesn't feel that dated obviously the odd prop or hairstyle might make it stand out a little bit

[00:18:19] but it does still feel of this sort of time really it totally holds up I mean the social issues are

[00:18:25] not have not changed at all that's which is a little disturbing when you're thinking 30 years

[00:18:32] later I mean you could you could reshoot them with the same script today and you'd have to change

[00:18:38] the name of the mayor or somebody you know yeah but it really is still very timely and also because

[00:18:46] because we shot it in a non-traditional format that was ahead of its time it also looks

[00:18:54] current because it's it's not as we we joked when we were talking to Tom it's it wasn't shot like

[00:19:00] murder she wrote right even though you worked on murder she wrote did you know season work to

[00:19:05] measure oh Susan you did yeah yeah I did oh yeah I lived in LA for eight years before I came back to

[00:19:10] Baltimore and that was one of the things I worked on uh for a couple years but um but that handheld

[00:19:16] camera although very smoothly done and then moving and dancing with the actors and the kind

[00:19:21] of pacing the show had um is really the way cop shows look today we were doing it 30 years ago

[00:19:30] it's kind of crazy yeah and it's funny you know we think about that that you know that it was

[00:19:35] kind of ahead of its time but we were going back into time to pull up techniques so that we were

[00:19:41] ahead of our time after you know because that was I remember Tom always referenced like the

[00:19:46] French New Wave films um Breathless uh the shooting style of those so they were and and Barry as well

[00:19:53] so they referenced a lot of those types of films and and used those and brought it up so you know

[00:19:58] and that first season where you weren't there was just bonkers with the 16 millimeter cameras

[00:20:05] that it didn't matter if you were looking this way one way and you're looking that way

[00:20:09] there was no continuity they were just and it was as actors it was incredibly freeing and it

[00:20:15] was really beautiful so when the second season came around and we had a different dp by then um

[00:20:21] and we were changing up things because in some ways the network needed some changes in terms of

[00:20:27] the camera not making everyone ill who was watching this show um and also the the darkness of it um

[00:20:34] you know I think the actors at that point went what I thought what's going on here

[00:20:39] what we're I thought we were doing it this way we're doing it this way now okay and it was

[00:20:43] it was an adjustment for the actors to kind of now oh we're kind of slowly moving into a uh

[00:20:51] there's there's corporate fingers all over this right now and Tom Tom kept everything as pure

[00:20:58] as he could but there were certain things that needed to change in order for the show to go on

[00:21:04] I remember feeling some of the later seasons certainly felt a little bit more action packed

[00:21:09] in places didn't they and uh and so you could see some of those changes isn't that funny yeah now

[00:21:14] was for again for actors that was very interesting because we were we were in you know kind of a

[00:21:20] pretty heady intellectual heart based family kind of show family meaning the family of like

[00:21:27] Andre and I being almost like an old married couple and the other their relationships but man

[00:21:33] when they when they threw on some of those action things with the gunfights and all of

[00:21:37] that it was really fun for actors it was really really fun I'm sure for the filmmakers

[00:21:42] you know for everyone else as well uh Susan you might be able to speak to that but but that

[00:21:48] but you had to just kind of work in a different way for those episodes but then you went back

[00:21:53] and you did the stuff that we were more um are kin with car chases and gun battles are never

[00:21:59] easy for the camera crew and Tom liked to mix it up like that for sure I thought one of the

[00:22:05] questions and maybe it would come later but we can jump into it now that idea um so you said

[00:22:10] that you know that that the camera work felt very freeing but maybe changed a little

[00:22:15] in the second season but when Jean came in still handheld still 16 millimeter

[00:22:21] still constantly moving never on a dolly unless it was on his butt dolly you know that where

[00:22:26] he's on the floor with the rails where he's moving around but this idea that that was one

[00:22:31] of the questions was how um if you come from traditional uh television filmmaking where you

[00:22:37] might have one or probably two cameras on dollies or on a tripod's on the set and everything is blocked

[00:22:45] very uh very specifically for the lighting and you have to hit your marks and this show was

[00:22:52] never that there were never marks the camera was constantly moving and so you guys it had to

[00:22:58] become a dance not just with okay it's not just Jean and and boots coming through pulling focus

[00:23:04] it's it's the boom operator and it's Josh right you know with the Chinese lantern but you guys are

[00:23:11] so great and we talked about this on some of the other episodes so how was that as an actor um

[00:23:16] and how different that is from traditional at the time traditional television filmmaking oh uh I mean

[00:23:23] yeah for me it was the best situation possible um because I it always felt I mean it still does to

[00:23:32] a sense but it's just a it's a it's a technique of hitting marks and doing all of that stuff which

[00:23:39] is great and it's but but this was something just completely different and in a way you know you

[00:23:48] as an actor you had to keep what you're you know the actor stuff the intentions in the scene

[00:23:53] what you needed from the other character what the scene was about etc while incorporating um these

[00:24:00] necessary technical elements that were going on that you didn't know oftentimes where they were

[00:24:06] gonna end up because Jean would be Jean would have his eye here and this other high was going

[00:24:12] out here looking for areas looking what for what I mean it was just it was like the coolest thing

[00:24:18] and so he would move and um and as we became more used to that process the crew became characters

[00:24:30] unseen characters but for us characters in what we were doing and and so it was amazing to see how

[00:24:37] the actors figured out and the crew figured out how to glide and move and duck under and give

[00:24:43] way to that and to keep their intention in the scene and there was a lot of times where people were

[00:24:49] you know you get smacked into or something like that or the actors hit the but you just kept going

[00:24:55] you just kept going and you just included that in in the scene and that was uh that was really

[00:25:06] it was just it was just very freeing it was very freeing yeah it just it just occurred to

[00:25:11] me while you were talking it because I wanted to ask have you worked on any productions that were

[00:25:17] similar to that but then I thought you know was it more like theater than television because of that

[00:25:24] you know in a sense live almost a live feeling because we weren't cutting after three lines

[00:25:30] of dialogue and resetting the camera we were going through maybe three or four pages

[00:25:35] and you guys had to do the whole scene right is it can you compare it to anything

[00:25:40] you know in as in some in some ways it felt like theater but it was its own it was its own

[00:25:45] beast it was its own thing it was unlike anything I had ever been a part of I couldn't say it was theater

[00:25:53] but there were elements that especially when you're running through lots of stuff and in my

[00:25:59] recollection there was an awful lot of improvisation in those early years and actors felt like

[00:26:05] because of that that they could also improvise they could also throw in different types of dialogue

[00:26:10] they could you know take things out and yeah it was its own it was its own beast and if you

[00:26:18] I think if you came from a world where you were locked into this is how you do it and especially

[00:26:25] if you just showed up and you did one episode and like guest stars or something and then it

[00:26:30] went away either they felt a great freedom or it was completely and there were plenty of people

[00:26:37] who showed up who did stuff and they didn't understand what the hell we were doing and

[00:26:42] they didn't understand how any of it would match they didn't understand about you know

[00:26:45] and we also shot many I mean we shot some pretty long hours pretty long hours even with

[00:26:52] Jim Finnerty like you know keeping his eye on the old yeah yeah it's it's interesting

[00:26:58] Jean talked about how short the hours were and I'm like what are you talking about he had a

[00:27:05] different he had a I remember 12 hour days every day so I don't know maybe but John could

[00:27:11] Jean could have gone for 24 hours so he was yeah amazing I asked him about his stamina

[00:27:17] and how he managed to keep that camera on his shoulder all the time and every day every day

[00:27:21] every day it's just amazing and he was like just and he was like a he was kind of a lean guy

[00:27:27] he wasn't it was sort of a Zen master too so maybe you guys had a connection there

[00:27:33] maybe maybe um what was the what was the name of the other camera camera guy who came in years

[00:27:40] later who was sort of he did Alex they were it was about it was about half um yeah Alex was

[00:27:46] on the was on the B camera and I would bump up on the B cam with Alex Alex Zechewski and then

[00:27:52] when Jean left Alex uh Alex took over and did just they did about the same amount of episodes

[00:27:58] like 55 57 each something like that yeah so that was Alex he was great too yeah and then Dave

[00:28:03] bumped up to Boots left and Dave bumped up there so um yeah and Alex you know had been

[00:28:09] on the show like you said is the B cameraman so he he also had to learn that dancerly thing but

[00:28:15] you know Alex probably had some of that in his jeans already before you know he got there and I

[00:28:22] guess you know I should have asked Jean who influenced that I would have I would assume

[00:28:27] Jean brought him in on the B camera so you know maybe somebody that that Jean had worked with

[00:28:32] before so the styles weren't too different right and and Alex did the same thing where he

[00:28:37] you know he'd be looking and looking around with the eye it was great it was great and the other

[00:28:42] thing is they they both had the the right personality for being on that set because it took a certain

[00:28:48] type of person to be on that set and to move through those years really did totally chill

[00:28:55] the both of them chill in different ways but the both of them were totally chill individuals

[00:28:59] and pleasure absolute pleasures to work with both of them absolutely definitely they're like

[00:29:05] I don't remember either one of them being rattled I'm sure they were but I worked with

[00:29:10] cameramen that got rattled and everybody knew it because they take it out on everybody yeah

[00:29:16] those two never did yeah there was enough stress on the set I think right yeah

[00:29:24] so should we jump so would you be okay should we jump in to talk in a little bit about Andre

[00:29:29] yeah I mean just obviously just a horrible shock and obviously lost many cast members

[00:29:36] you know since that time you know starting with Ned and and John Polito and then of course

[00:29:42] you know more recently Richard and I think even Yafet wasn't that long ago either Yafet

[00:29:47] and Yafet yes Yafet but certainly just Andre was was such a shock and I you know I thought about

[00:29:54] you and and obviously how close you were on the show but I don't know I didn't know you guys personally

[00:29:59] well I knew Andre a little personally because he went to the Unitarian Church I went to

[00:30:04] and they became members there bring their son and I would run into them there sometime

[00:30:09] but um but and Chris and I talked about this a little bit about how obviously it was an

[00:30:15] ensemble cast but they're you guys were sort of like you know the epicenter in some ways

[00:30:21] of the show so just do you know if you want to anything you want to say about him and what it

[00:30:27] was like working with him and um you know did you stay connected afterward or not

[00:30:32] and you know just any thoughts because you know he was such a presence and also just so young to

[00:30:37] just go so horribly shocking yeah well you know here's the the the interesting thing is is I

[00:30:49] don't even I don't remember how we initially connected except for on the show I don't remember

[00:30:55] when how we first you know on how we first met on the show I don't know if we had an initial

[00:31:03] what that initial connection was other than that we both you know I would it was very clear to

[00:31:09] me um I had a a deep love for acting and dialogue and words and things like that and Andre

[00:31:18] you know a lot of the actors on our show did but Andre it was very clear to me it was highly important

[00:31:24] to him and the words and the choice of words and how they were how they came out of his mouth

[00:31:30] and how they landed on his partner um it was it was incredibly important and that to me was I went

[00:31:39] that's the person I want to spend my life with this is the person I want to like just

[00:31:46] this is the one I want to go to battle with this is the one I want to

[00:31:51] spend the majority of my time with on this set and I loved most of the other actors

[00:31:58] but Andre was a real special gift for that for all of us I mean I mean for all of us and

[00:32:07] I mean I don't know if you remember this stuff but he I mean and also the the line between

[00:32:15] cast and crew was often just non-existent it was just you were hanging out with the crew

[00:32:23] as much as the cast when there was downtime and Andre was you know I just remember

[00:32:31] chess crossword puzzles you know um a lot of I'm a horrible uh rapper and he uh he put up

[00:32:41] with my rapping and then he would then he would rap with me and we would create scenarios on set um

[00:32:48] that to me I just laughed I would just laugh my ass off constantly around him and he was also you

[00:32:56] know obviously you know incredibly serious and deep and all of that but for me um can't imagine

[00:33:04] what that show would have been like without him at all or what my partnership with you know

[00:33:11] you know uh without him would be um and um yeah we I mean we spent a lot of time in those

[00:33:20] cavaliers rehearsing talking about life making sure our microphones weren't on so that people

[00:33:27] could pick up on what we were saying um you know and we you know in the first year we lived in

[00:33:36] the same building second year same building third year we lived out in homestead about two blocks away

[00:33:42] from each other uh where were you the first and second years were you down in fels point first

[00:33:46] year we were down on the at the on the waterfront at that that hotel that was where everyone stayed

[00:33:54] that one around the corner yeah down on the pier yeah yeah yeah yeah I didn't know the name

[00:34:00] what but it something worth something I don't know but that's where everyone was and then we were there

[00:34:06] and I think for the the next four episodes um of the of the second season and then everyone kind

[00:34:12] of found their their places after that but um so we spent a lot of time in each other's presence

[00:34:19] and um yeah yeah it was good it was a good good person and a freaking phenomenal actor and

[00:34:34] and when I first heard it um

[00:34:39] but I mean I was shocked like everyone I mean I imagine like many other people were

[00:34:44] shocked by it and you know thought about Amy and the kids and um and and you know and I and I

[00:34:54] then I think it was the second day I got on YouTube just to watch some episodes or to watch

[00:35:01] some scenes because I literally I can't remember um the beauty and brilliance and greatness of those

[00:35:11] those moments and and my daughters walked in and that's the first time they'd ever seen homicide

[00:35:18] and so they got to experience that as well and I think that you know maybe people will get to

[00:35:25] you know re-experience him at that particular age and space and time yeah and what and what great

[00:35:33] you know you think of people talking about chemistry between um male and female actors

[00:35:39] but um you guys had an amazing chemistry and um one of the things I think it was

[00:35:47] one of the questions farther down but um your character arcs did this you know your character

[00:35:55] arcs went opposite um on the show you were sort of the innocent um at the beginning

[00:36:03] and you know he was the know all see all you know the god of the detectives basically right

[00:36:09] and then and and tom mentioned you know that that andre had said I what I've already done everything

[00:36:16] I could possibly do in the box what are you gonna do with me I mean he sort of felt like he'd

[00:36:20] been boxed out he was like what are we gonna do next and they came up with this idea of the

[00:36:25] stroke which then made him the vulnerable innocent and then your character becomes

[00:36:31] you know cynical and sort of hardened in a way that andre's character was at the beginning

[00:36:37] and so there's this this weird sort of 180 on your on your characters um you know by the end of the

[00:36:44] of the show and obviously he left the season before but can you talk a little bit about as

[00:36:49] an actor that was an incredible arc for you um and also you were one of the few actors

[00:36:56] that I think there was just four that were in every episode from beginning to end

[00:37:02] it must have been great to have that stretch well I like that you put it like that with those

[00:37:08] yeah and it's very interesting that we seemed to be going in different directions as characters

[00:37:15] it didn't you know it's it didn't necessarily feel that way while it was happening

[00:37:22] um but my character becoming more cynical and a vigilante really by the end and even though

[00:37:29] Andre's character did some you know kind of iffy things in the box or you know he had a moral

[00:37:38] center because of the you know his Jesuit training and all of that stuff um that

[00:37:44] that saw him through you know you know the stroke and you know and and when you know to the to the end

[00:37:51] when he left um so Tim my character didn't have that my character was had a moral thing

[00:38:03] that wasn't connected to a god or anything like that um good point but but he was attempting

[00:38:12] to stick with that and he did for quite some time and then as all the layers are kind of

[00:38:21] you know removed where you know he's now questioning not quite he's bisexual so he was

[00:38:29] questioning why he would be straight or why he would be just that why couldn't he be a lot

[00:38:34] of different things why couldn't he be a vigilante why couldn't and there didn't seem to be any nose

[00:38:42] in place but even being a vigilante there was a moral um creed there he's right the wrong right

[00:38:50] there was something that he was going after which which for Andre's character that was

[00:38:56] completely out of he would never have done anything like that in under any circumstances

[00:39:02] yeah with the vigilante thing I was just rewatching Sniper recently and there's a bit where Tim

[00:39:07] I think he's trying to get into the mind of the killer and he's he gets his gun out starts

[00:39:11] pointing it at some random people near the police station and we're thinking with where Tim ends up

[00:39:17] um was that like a was that like a hint of where he was going or was that just uh

[00:39:21] for him getting into the sort of eyes the killer a bit oh that's a great that's a really good

[00:39:27] question I mean I think you know Tom you know Tom had you know an overall vision but within the

[00:39:35] what was going on during the seasons I'm not sure if he you know I think what Tom would do is he

[00:39:42] would follow the breadcrumbs that he had laid so if there's that it's like oh where can that

[00:39:49] go to from there and then he's realizing oh I've set this stuff up for him to become a

[00:39:56] vigilante in the first season I'm hanging around in a black leather jacket at the end of the first

[00:40:05] season oh a black leather jacket where could that go to is there something with Tim and his sexuality

[00:40:14] he's like a black leather jacket but he does I think that's the brilliance it's the

[00:40:19] brilliance of what he would do and he did that with all of our characters and he certainly

[00:40:24] did that with Andre because Andre gave him a lot Andre showed up with a lot gave him a lot and Tom

[00:40:31] took a lot from what he what he had to offer yeah it was it was I really don't think you could point

[00:40:38] to any other show that had a cast like that I mean I just think because so distinct

[00:40:46] not just the number and having all those people working in

[00:40:53] we had a lot of people a lot of people but also incredibly distinct there was nothing cookie

[00:40:58] cutter about any one of you there was nothing cookie cutter everybody was really their own

[00:41:07] you know they're really truly their own character not not just another cop or another

[00:41:13] you know female cop really cool yeah you know something that I had read that I went oh right

[00:41:20] that's right we had more subplots going on in that first season the first couple of there was

[00:41:27] more subplots happening because we had so many fabulous actors and Tom and Barry wanted a lot

[00:41:35] of different things going on they started fine tuning that into like one murder thing and then

[00:41:41] some AB the classical abc story but they still did that throughout the years to try to kind of

[00:41:50] play both sides of the fence in a way for what you know and it's because of what you said Susan

[00:41:58] about like the how many incredible characters that were very individualistic in the way they

[00:42:03] looked at things and we could see things through a lot of different people's eyes about one event

[00:42:08] or a number of events and we and the audience got to go oh right I'll follow that oh no oh I think

[00:42:15] he's right no he's you know it's because of those separate voices those you know very beautiful

[00:42:21] the writing the writing was just it's terrific I watched all three of your the episodes that you

[00:42:26] directed last night and um we both did didn't we yeah we did yeah we did our homework last

[00:42:34] night yeah last night yeah wow I was watching the I think it might have been it might have was

[00:42:43] the Y chromosome also have the subs the sub story with um with bellzer and his girlfriend and her

[00:42:49] getting beat up in the bar I think I believe so that was the that's the the um the gang

[00:42:57] story the gang the same one episode but yeah but just that that episode um well the all the writing

[00:43:04] was good through all the episodes but there but there's so much the the writing was so specific to

[00:43:09] obviously it would have to be but so specific to the characters personalities and and the way they

[00:43:15] spoke and like each one of you even had your own language I mean if you if you watch and I don't

[00:43:21] remember was that episode or or shaggy dog that's a great episode I love shaggy dog yeah and Meldrick

[00:43:28] ends up being placed with Andre um because you guys had you know had your tiff happening and

[00:43:33] you were not then partnered with Andre for a while and it really struck me their Andre and Clarks

[00:43:41] just their the cadence of the way they spoke and moved was really so different

[00:43:48] mm-hmm to the way you guys did there were some there was there was some sort of chemistry

[00:43:55] dance going on with you and Andre right but but it and it worked really good with with that plot

[00:44:00] because the plot was that they couldn't stand working together um and you could really see

[00:44:05] it in in their in their personalities and their language and their the cadence of their

[00:44:09] speak and the way they moved was it just really um powerful stuff really just engaging yeah as

[00:44:17] the writers when they put well let's just take Andre and I when they split us up and they put him

[00:44:23] with like Danny Baldwin or they put him with Melissa or they put him with other you know

[00:44:29] the interesting thing is is that I had the we had the experience of being together for

[00:44:36] Andre and I as partners for six years and we had developed a a language between ourselves

[00:44:42] as the characters that kind of comes through especially in those tight little cavalier scenes

[00:44:49] where we could be talking going on about an idea and he's going on it we're not even it

[00:44:53] looks like we're not even listening to each other and it's just rat a tat-tat and then

[00:44:59] someone will say something and the other person will say piss off or whatever you go it's like

[00:45:04] oh yes they are listening to each other they're not just in their own little worlds and that's

[00:45:08] sort of how we did it we would we would have uh almost like a philosophical discussion and all

[00:45:15] of a sudden it became incredibly cut and the personal and and and the writers wrote towards

[00:45:21] that and if you had like Danny and Andre maybe in one episode together as partners then you

[00:45:29] had to be very clear that they didn't like each other or that there was something about that

[00:45:34] that they didn't like and but again the writers again would make it all work out in a beautiful

[00:45:41] you know uh synchronistic way yeah and and always underlining that was the fact that um

[00:45:48] that Andre's character didn't want to have a partner at all yeah he was the lone the

[00:45:54] lone wolf the lone intellectual yeah and Tim was so much about hey man can I come over for

[00:46:00] something to eat you want to come over to my place can we hang like no I've got a wife right

[00:46:07] not even have a beer right right I gotta go I'm having club soda and then I'm leaving the bar

[00:46:12] right and then if he did like I was like this like a dog lapping it up going yeah hey yeah

[00:46:18] I'll be there what time should I bring anything flowers interesting message

[00:46:24] dogs are just thinking like Tim's a bit like a labrador in the homicide unit a bit like

[00:46:27] a lot of cats you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah oh my gosh so just so look so do you want to talk

[00:46:35] about those um about your three episodes that you directed what was that transition like the directing

[00:46:41] you know it's just been quite interesting well so so I mean this is something I remember very

[00:46:47] clearly because I remember it was really clear why I did it a I was I was mentally

[00:46:53] uh an emotionally capable of doing it um because of certain things in my life had been moved away

[00:47:01] and I was now like fully like here I am I'm present I can do whatever on this show and also um

[00:47:09] we had had I remember that season I'm not sure but we had had a couple of directors

[00:47:15] that didn't throw a good party that didn't treat the older act didn't treat but didn't treat the older

[00:47:25] actors in um with the respect that they were just getting the shots they were just doing the

[00:47:31] thing and they were you know younger and and they didn't treat the older actors um with that

[00:47:36] kind of respect and it became I think we had like maybe a couple of them in a row and I went

[00:47:42] god this is horrible I've got we got to do something about this um oh maybe I can I had

[00:47:49] direct an episode and I remember Clark directed his first episode that season or maybe he'd done it

[00:47:55] before so I knew that an actor could direct other actors that they had been working with

[00:48:00] and Clark was had already directed stuff before and he was really good and so um I thought well

[00:48:07] I'll just do it and Tom went okay you can do it and so I remember I shadowed Clark and I asked him a

[00:48:14] bunch of specific questions and then I remember I had a notebook that was my notebook of uh

[00:48:21] remember if you don't know something it's okay you don't have to know everything and you don't

[00:48:27] know everything but ask this person and I would have like I even had like the caterer in there

[00:48:33] like I would listen to I would listen to whoever had an idea about something because I knew that I

[00:48:38] didn't have all the answers to any of it so um and I and I had that written down remember the

[00:48:44] caterer even has something to say about your scene so that's how I got into that and and

[00:48:53] of course the first episode I was just out of my depth completely and um everyone knew it and

[00:49:01] I remember the first time that Andre decided that he wasn't going to come out of his trailer

[00:49:06] at the time that we needed him to come out of his trailer and which was kind of the you know

[00:49:13] the first like oh I see the people that I work with interesting even the people I work with

[00:49:20] I don't remember that it's almost like the way we shot it I don't even remember you guys

[00:49:24] having time to be in your trailer if they're you know I guess they were they parked in the

[00:49:29] down underneath the uh the sets that's funny they were around I mean sometimes I don't think we even

[00:49:35] brought trailers with us and we just like hung out in cars if it was but that but that time there

[00:49:41] was a trailer and I think Amy was in that episode as well oh yes yeah yeah yeah yeah but I

[00:49:48] but he was he was being hard-nosed on me he wouldn't take he didn't want I and I went okay I guess

[00:49:54] I just but I knew that's the one thing that's the one superpower I had is I knew what the actors

[00:50:01] because I'd seen how they responded with other directors in direction I knew that I had to back off

[00:50:06] let him do his own thing I knew that when Yatha was going to have maybe an outburst on the set

[00:50:12] I knew how to handle that and I all what he wanted to do is he just wanted to be listened to

[00:50:17] and do a scene one take his way fantastic we can do all that and I knew all of these little

[00:50:25] tricks or whatever you would call it um and some of them worked and some of them

[00:50:30] they went down at flames but then they let you direct two more times didn't they so

[00:50:34] you didn't do too badly yeah yeah yeah yeah and and the and the shaggy dog one was just

[00:50:40] the biggest joy it was so much fun and working with Steve Allen and his wife or it was just

[00:50:48] just great that was just great fun I mean all of the subplots in there were really

[00:50:54] really is really fun for me and that was the one where I don't know Susan if you remember this

[00:50:59] is I had some pretty great ideas about filmmaking for that episode and that I was going to do

[00:51:06] something different than the normal homicide style so I think Jean got a camera that would spin

[00:51:12] when a car came by so that it would spin so that it looked like the car was going from upside down

[00:51:17] to right side up and it's like we like they got a hold of this stuff and they did these things

[00:51:24] and then it all got cut from the episode oh no all of my stuff because Tom went that's not how

[00:51:30] that's not the style of what we're doing so I learned so I was kind of learning as I was going along

[00:51:37] and then when we got to the Y chromosome that was a whole other challenge because

[00:51:44] I was the only one who wanted the actress who was the main actress and the producers didn't and so

[00:51:51] I went by gosh I'm sticking you mean the gang actress she was absolutely terrific wasn't she

[00:51:57] great she was so yeah so you had a part so you had a part in casting her yeah yeah yeah yeah

[00:52:03] yeah and then when she and I remember when she came down you know she said hey I want to tell you

[00:52:10] something for this there's some there's some curse words in here I'm not going to say any curse

[00:52:16] words and I went what and we don't we didn't like and at the time he was always damn it or

[00:52:24] hell or something she wouldn't do it she had a obligation to herself and to you know to not curse

[00:52:32] interesting and I went I went you're a you're a gang leader you're like and um and I remember I

[00:52:41] talked to the writers and they went oh well you got to do something about that Kyle we've got to

[00:52:45] keep all of those curse words in there we fought we fought the network to get a certain number

[00:52:50] of curse words oh no oh okay and so I remember the first day of shooting I walked into a trailer

[00:52:56] I said listen I've got to do this um I need you to say these curse words and she said

[00:53:01] I'm not saying one of them and I went okay and I walked out and I told the uh Yashimura I said

[00:53:10] she's not going to do it he goes what why don't you just say damn I said you can try but

[00:53:15] she won't do it I'm okay not doing it let's just let's just do it without curse or it's

[00:53:20] someone doesn't curse let's do that so I had it was my first time that I really had to deal with like

[00:53:25] the producers kind of coming in and like trying to get me as the director and it was really a

[00:53:30] I was a fantastic opportunity to you know to figure out how to do that kind of stuff and

[00:53:35] it happened it occurred throughout the entire like the first four days I think they were

[00:53:40] really pushing hard to get her to see those words and then they let it go the like the last three days

[00:53:46] they just let it go and which was as she was great she was just great at least I didn't try and guess

[00:53:50] we had to dub the words in yeah they didn't but they didn't they didn't nissy was the one that got

[00:53:57] shot at the end was her name I can't remember crystal Samantha Brown tanya crystal I think

[00:54:05] crystal crystal was her nickname yeah anyway she was she was terrific in that episode really

[00:54:12] believable yeah really fun you know and I didn't even I didn't even notice there were no curse words

[00:54:17] she was so tough um she didn't she must have known she didn't need it because she was she was one tough

[00:54:25] bitch I mean she was but I but I will say this I do appreciate yosh for doing what he did

[00:54:32] those were his words that was his script that was he was protecting what he did so I really

[00:54:36] appreciate that and I appreciate him you know kind of getting on me and it all is just part of the

[00:54:42] process so I really like that how how we're how we're Steve Allen and um oh I just had her name

[00:54:49] is Jane his wife is it Jane Jane yeah meadows Jane meadows yeah how so that that's some old

[00:54:56] school I mean that's like murder she wrote stars right yeah yeah they were great they were fantastic

[00:55:02] how were they to direct was there did you feel a difference between directing them and and either

[00:55:07] a regular cast or other guest stars that were not that kind of like super old you know the OGs

[00:55:13] they were the OGs yeah they were the old OGs um but you know the great thing about him and about

[00:55:19] Jane Jane was incredibly open she really wanted to do whatever it took Steve would just be Steve

[00:55:27] and he would just do his thing but Jane was the one who would stay on him get your lines I didn't

[00:55:33] have to do anything I didn't have to do anything and we spent really yeah and we spent a lot of time

[00:55:39] together and if you recall where we shot in their apartment it was a hoarder's apartment

[00:55:46] and it was really it was a hoarder's apartment and and I saw the apartment when I we went in

[00:55:50] and I went this is what I want we can clear out some things but keep it pretty much like this

[00:55:57] and when we got there to shoot they'd cleared everything out oh no so all of a sudden my little

[00:56:05] storyline of them being maybe hoarders was gone but um I got to spend because Richard knew them

[00:56:12] oh and he loved them and so we got to spend have lunches together and the comedian world I

[00:56:17] guess they know each other from that yeah yeah and Steve Allen years and years and years before

[00:56:23] had had Jack Kerouac on his show and it was one of the first times um we had a you have a recording

[00:56:28] of Jack Kerouac reading on the road and so that to me Kerouac was a huge hero in mind so I

[00:56:34] could talk to him about Kerouac and but they were lovely together just lovely she would do

[00:56:40] whatever it took and I asked her to do like one thing that no one had ever asked her to do

[00:56:47] and she had a wig and I said would you do this scene without the wig and she went absolutely

[00:56:53] no one's ever asked me that absolutely and she thought it was brilliant and I just okay

[00:57:00] I was it was that was a that was a delight they were a delight to to be with indirect and funny

[00:57:07] as hell that was funny and the format of that I also thought about as a director the format of that

[00:57:12] much of it was in flashback because it was Michelle Forbes yeah attending the convention isn't

[00:57:19] she you know the Emmy convention yeah getting an award and then like sitting around at the bar

[00:57:24] bullshitting with the other guys and telling the story as as sort of like okay here's my story

[00:57:31] see if you can figure this one out figure out how this murder occurred or you know and then

[00:57:37] then it was all in flashback did that was was that interesting as a director did it not really

[00:57:42] matter once you're in once you're in scene it doesn't matter if it's a flashback or not I mean did

[00:57:46] it in your head chronologically putting it together as a director no no I think when I found

[00:57:52] when I when I when I came up with the this little thing of how to get into the flashback

[00:57:58] then to me that everything kind of fell into place and it was the camera going into black and

[00:58:03] coming back up into a scene which I hadn't seen on homicide before and they kept in which was thank you

[00:58:10] so much Tom and all of the editors and Cindy and but that was when I did that I went okay got it now

[00:58:19] in me it's clear in my head flashback and so it was great fun working with Michelle Michelle had

[00:58:25] hopefully she had a great time on that episode because we it was it was an awful lot of fun

[00:58:29] and she was surrounded with some great actors at the table you know the drinking and eating stuff and

[00:58:36] but it didn't know it wasn't hard to keep it straight in my head at all

[00:58:43] it was it was great fun and that was with the all the hillbilly stuff right as well yes

[00:58:50] is that right yeah there was a chase and things yeah yeah yeah so we went we went from we were like

[00:58:57] going all over the place to you know with these all these different subplots yeah you have one of

[00:59:03] the rare car chases and homicide in the episode I just watched it remind me what hillbilly stuff

[00:59:08] it was where uh I think it was Garrity and Callie Callie's character had gone out to find

[00:59:17] because it was um there was there'd been a killing maybe something in pig town or something like

[00:59:24] that um oh man and he ended up in a fisticuffs don't lay in there yeah there's a scene in the bar

[00:59:30] where he's got the steak or that was fun yeah that was his idea to get to grab the old old school

[00:59:36] steak and then he's in love with the bart the the woman is tending bar that's it

[00:59:41] I was the those were and Peter was just a just a delight another like actor who's just an

[00:59:47] actor's actor that's the delight and Callie as well oh my god they're all wonderful yeah one

[00:59:53] random question if I may um because you brought it up earlier and you don't have to name any names

[00:59:58] or anything like that but what makes what you've been directed and you have directed so I suppose

[01:00:03] what what makes um a good director for actors on a tv show and what makes a bad one at least

[01:00:09] through homicide well hmm look if you if you're a director who's I mean I don't know how it how it

[01:00:17] used to be if you're just an episodic director who goes from show to show to show to show show show

[01:00:21] show show it's very difficult a to do that and show up with a new cast and to be the guy who's

[01:00:27] going to now lead them through this you know seven or eight days of shooting it's it's a very difficult

[01:00:33] thing to do um and some people do it very very well and they understand the situation they're coming

[01:00:41] into and they have respect for the people that they're with them and they have a passion about

[01:00:46] what they do and they're not just calling it in they're not just like what we call traffic cops

[01:00:52] move here move there um those are the those on in a tv series those are the people that I like

[01:01:01] and the ones that can come up to you even if they've never said anything to you for the whole thing

[01:01:05] come up and say hey let's try this because I think your character oh okay but they're not imposing

[01:01:14] something on me that is antithetical to what your character would do just to get a shot

[01:01:20] just that's it it's just to get a shot I need you to be here in this and crook your that stuff

[01:01:26] to me is if people do that and they can do it very well and some actors I can't I don't respond very

[01:01:34] well that stuff so um but having a light in their eyes in a way that they're interested

[01:01:44] they're here with all of us and they're gonna you know they know their they know what their

[01:01:48] their position is they're not gonna reinvent the wheel and certainly on homicide when you saw

[01:01:54] that happen it didn't go over well did not go over well didn't go over well yeah they wanted to impose

[01:02:01] their style on a style that was already like what I did and you knew your character so we talked about

[01:02:09] this in another episode where where people would push back and say my character wouldn't do that

[01:02:15] because you you knew your characters inside and out um so yeah that's a it was a dance for the

[01:02:21] directors quite a dance for the directors to come in and uh and and also the idea that they were all

[01:02:27] feature film directors coming in too like the 180 degree opposite of how you shoot a feature film

[01:02:34] right now but Susan as you know we did have some feature film directors but we also had some people

[01:02:40] right out of college yes we did we had people that that they had seen maybe their their uh thesis

[01:02:46] film or something like that and they decided they're gonna give them a shot or had one in a

[01:02:50] one one award for something yeah yeah did that did that usually work out um about naming names but

[01:02:58] well some I mean sometimes sometimes but there were again I think it was that one year it just

[01:03:04] did not and they were fine they went on had fine careers and stuff but for us where we were at

[01:03:10] in Baltimore on location it just didn't is things some that type of thing just didn't work for us we

[01:03:18] weren't a theoretical um group we were basically a let's get this shit done and let's make it the

[01:03:25] best we can make it yeah I have a question that might be not really as pertinent but I'm reading

[01:03:32] Barbara Streisand's memoir and which by the way is absolutely terrific and we need to talk about

[01:03:39] your book at the end too um but she talks about uh you know we're gonna let you talk about she talks

[01:03:47] about I'm not babs directing uh you know so you're the director and you're acting in the scene um

[01:03:56] and you're in essence directing yourself but also and this may not really and you can tell me if

[01:04:01] this doesn't really apply because obviously in in yet let's say Yantl she's in every scene um

[01:04:08] and you you know you as a director on homicide or not in every scene because this is gigantic

[01:04:12] ensemble cast and five storylines happening but she talked about what she loved to do the ability as

[01:04:18] an actor directing um was sometimes in some scenes and she did not like to cut when things went wrong

[01:04:25] she just said keep rolling keep rolling let's do it again and she would prompt the actor she

[01:04:30] was acting with often when well not always but when the camera was over her shoulder so that she could get

[01:04:38] the performance that she wanted even by going off script and maybe saying something that's not in

[01:04:44] the script to get the kind of reaction that she wanted but did did you did that come into

[01:04:49] play at all this idea of not just directing yourself but being in the scene working with

[01:04:55] the other actors and and maybe doing a little directing as you do you know what i mean within

[01:05:02] the scene as the actor does that make sense i don't think that i i really don't think that i was

[01:05:09] competent enough to do that um i mean if anything i would possibly touch someone's um wrist to

[01:05:20] move them out of the way of the camera or something like that but to do that i i'm like like i'm okay

[01:05:30] off camera coaching someone through a scene and saying stuff and getting something out of them

[01:05:35] because i know that i can kind of cut my the coaching out um but as an actor i just wasn't

[01:05:41] i don't think i was capable of doing that and i was uncomfortable being an actor in those as well

[01:05:48] um you know i would have frank yell action or cut or something like that and but i could hardly wait

[01:05:55] to just get out of my clothes and and get back to being a director you know yeah interesting and

[01:06:04] and when i've directed since then um shorts and things like that and uh and i've had to be in them

[01:06:13] um it's uh um it's it's been better but i've never been that i've never done that thing of being able

[01:06:20] to direct during a scene you know um while i'm in it that's just takes someone like barbara strisand

[01:06:31] you know that was a very personal story too i mean i think also another thing is that

[01:06:36] you know sometimes you'll be asked to say things off camera to get the other character riled up

[01:06:41] or to to get something else out of them and improvise and go off and um it's it's a it's a

[01:06:47] funny thing i i also feel uncomfortable doing that is just as an actor i mean i'm thinking about

[01:06:53] you know robert deniro in king of comedy and all from what i understand all the things that he

[01:06:59] would be saying to jerry lewis off camera to get reaction and jerry lewis is brilliant in it because

[01:07:05] of him being jerry lewis but also because of him being um baited by you know deniro off camera

[01:07:11] interesting i think which i think is an incredible technique and if you're up for doing that do it

[01:07:19] interesting and then obviously the the dynamic of jerry lewis being a director you know he's

[01:07:25] you know his yeah usually directing himself and not in that case right yeah yeah that's a great

[01:07:31] movie yeah that's a great movie well um back to acting about me are there any particular

[01:07:38] episodes that were really sort of challenging for you all to stand out for you i would say they

[01:07:44] all had their they all had their challenges because the writers built that into the scripts

[01:07:52] um you know you know the easy one is three men and adina um which was a huge challenge

[01:08:02] an acting challenge and also uh just delightful to be doing every single day but you know there was

[01:08:10] nothing i would say there wasn't anything that none of it that any of us were not up for

[01:08:19] we were really willing to kind of you know to go there i think this stuff with

[01:08:26] this trigger alert trigger alert you know finding out about my you know my was my uncle or my father

[01:08:33] molesting me uncle as a child um that was that was that was challenging because we wanted to get it

[01:08:43] right we wanted to get how the audience would react to that right and at that particular time

[01:08:55] in the 90s um you know there were there were it was just a very different way of of looking

[01:09:04] at something which is continue you know just continues now like you know perhaps and and

[01:09:10] that that one ended up being the one that um and i never looked at you know i never remember

[01:09:17] about fan mail or anything like that but that was the one where i remember getting tons of fan mail

[01:09:23] and i went really reading it i went oh oh television can make a difference and wow you know maybe make

[01:09:29] a difference in people's lives and how they relate to things and they're able to go oh

[01:09:34] and then write you know they're able to write to those you know the person who

[01:09:38] was on screens kind of standing in and it was very moving it was moving to read those

[01:09:45] letters into yeah so we had we we got it right but it was challenging

[01:09:51] feeling while while we were doing that episode yeah but nothing i i can't remember

[01:09:59] anything else unless i was in a horrible head space and showed up at work and then went you've

[01:10:06] got to do this and i'm going what i refuse oh okay i don't know maybe something something

[01:10:15] no curse words today something like that yeah exactly was there was there some satisfaction in

[01:10:22] i know you mentioned the the real the real cop pellegrini is that pellegrini you know how much it

[01:10:28] affected his life that the adena watson which was tanya wallace i believe in real life uh

[01:10:34] was never solved um was there some satisfaction for you and the character um that that that was

[01:10:40] revisited and requiem for adena where you know he sort of had he had he had to put away um

[01:10:49] tim had to put put away his obsession with with that case and he i mean he basically i think

[01:10:55] in one part he puts the stuff in the drawer but i think in the last shot he puts it in the

[01:10:59] trash can i think he he dumps it to get it out of his his life as much as he could obviously

[01:11:06] the physical things but obviously was still in his head yeah and as i as i recall i i believe that

[01:11:13] was made tom brought a bunch of things from the case not a bunch but a couple of things from the case

[01:11:23] that um that he wanted me to have for that um i don't even really know how to speak about that

[01:11:34] you know it's uh because i knew while while it was happening and while we were shooting it

[01:11:40] you know this is a piece of tom that's and a piece of this person this other this this girl

[01:11:46] that's being set aside now and how that would feel to him or to relatives of her or to you know

[01:11:57] i didn't know what i i don't know i don't know it's hard to speak about but i don't

[01:12:01] know what any of that would mean um but it was um it was satisfying in a way to do that as an actor

[01:12:10] yeah and they made a point i think i think chris if i remember correctly the actor said that that

[01:12:17] to honor that case they left the homicide case also unsolved they did not want to solve that

[01:12:23] case on the show because it was still an open case in real life and so it yeah yeah yeah yeah

[01:12:30] it would have been it would have been fake and false and all of that stuff that often happens in

[01:12:36] hollywood to have a kind of a happy ending and they don't tom doesn't like happy endings

[01:12:42] not a lot of happy endings on those episodes all hundred and twenty two of them right because

[01:12:49] because life moves on and that happiness is only gonna last for a little bit and then something

[01:12:56] else will come you know will happen you know come up i i think he's he's right on the money with all

[01:13:02] of that stuff and how he left those you know loose ends in a way yeah they always made you think

[01:13:09] i mean when that screen went to black at the end of the episode you were left with some weighty

[01:13:14] some weighty feeling really it was a very profound show and i like the i always loved the

[01:13:21] interplay between you and andre brow those debates you guys were having in the box and things

[01:13:26] and and obviously your conversations in the car and i love that episode crisseti

[01:13:31] where you go and get the cookies um and andre it's a whole thing about andre parking in a

[01:13:36] particular way and it's just a fantastic scene and it sort of starts off so funny and ends

[01:13:42] up quite profound by the end of it is brilliant uh no okay if you could just quickly talk me

[01:13:47] through that now i'm like it's now what yeah they go so they're getting the cookies for

[01:13:53] crisseti's funeral and they're getting them from a particular shop yes yes the italian the italian

[01:13:57] shop the panielli from the carousel yeah the panielli is right and and pamelsen wants the park

[01:14:04] in his very small space and you were like telling him it's too small and he's like no no i'm gonna

[01:14:08] do it and he makes a real thing of it and then you guys end up in the in the um the shop

[01:14:14] talking about the price of the cookies and how many doesn't how many doesn't to get yeah

[01:14:20] and it all just sort of end i can't remember exactly how it ends but it all ends up being

[01:14:24] quite profound by the time you guys get back to the car and it's sort of about that sense of loss

[01:14:28] and things is a very very good sequence right there was and again beautifully written and

[01:14:35] that's perfect for pambleton's character i'm gonna put this car in this tiny little place

[01:14:39] because it needs to go there and i can do it i remember there was another moment and i can't

[01:14:46] remember the scene we were going to tell someone that they're a child or someone had been murdered

[01:14:57] and we went in there and there was a bowl of Cheerios sitting on the table and i inadvertently

[01:15:09] knocked it onto the floor they kept the cameras rolling i bent down and i'm cleaning up these

[01:15:18] Cheerios off the floor and i remember when it was happening i'm going oh crap i'm getting

[01:15:24] i'm getting emotional this is not this is not how it's supposed to go in this scene but it was

[01:15:31] exactly how when i i haven't watched that episode in years i might be remembering this completely

[01:15:36] wrong but i remember the cereal on the ground and cleaning up the cereal and it being left in

[01:15:42] was one of those homicide moments as well yeah lucky lucky moments but wow that i'm just now

[01:15:53] thinking about the car going into that tiny spot and the argument over the money that was being

[01:15:58] spent and oh that was brilliant that's it's perfect writing yeah it's like the minutiae of daily life

[01:16:05] that usually doesn't get written into dramatic scripts like that yeah yeah yeah yeah so good what

[01:16:13] was it like being based in boltmore for the period of time that you were there because

[01:16:17] you're not a bolt more native are you i don't believe no no no i don't even seem like a balthamore

[01:16:23] native i'm i'm definitely not a i i don't even know what a balthamore native is anymore i

[01:16:29] thought i did when i was there i know there you are but but i'm uh um no i was i came from

[01:16:38] washington state and i most of my time life was spent in los angeles and so i i came to

[01:16:43] balthamore and it was a it was a huge shift huge shift i think that if you didn't have

[01:16:52] i think this i think that if you didn't have um i didn't have when i when i went there i wasn't in

[01:16:58] a relationship if you were there and you had a relationship that you were in and you had

[01:17:04] that support to me that would have been kind of nice uh because i was i was like i this place didn't

[01:17:15] make any sense to me um it didn't make sense how people could it's it's a beautiful sense

[01:17:24] you know a beautiful thing people could move out of their home and live next to their parents

[01:17:31] in that in the row you know are they called row houses there they're called row houses yeah

[01:17:37] row houses or or not leave that neighborhood i i'm not sure if they if we still have that

[01:17:43] we still lead in that but it was that balthamore was the city where the most people didn't leave

[01:17:54] balthamore the city where people don't leave yeah it also used to be known as as a city of

[01:17:59] neighborhoods um because the neighborhoods were very distinct and and and ethnic and you know here's

[01:18:04] the italian neighborhood here's the german neighborhood here's the lithuanian neighborhood

[01:18:09] you know so so yeah it was known for for uh people not leaving yes i don't know if that's

[01:18:16] still the case and you know generally but you know what but what it did i mean i think that uh

[01:18:21] john waters is brilliant and i think that he captured a certain thing that you know at

[01:18:27] we went into a lot of homes in balthamore we shot in a lot of homes um when i was directing i saw a

[01:18:34] lot of homes before we did any of our changing it up to make it a good scene and and we shot in

[01:18:41] places that didn't get touched that we went into that that and i thought boy john waters captured

[01:18:48] this perfectly because at that time in balthamore uh oftentimes it felt like the homes that we

[01:18:55] showed that they chose to shoot in were almost museums to people's eccentricities so you could

[01:19:02] you would go into places and go oh wow what wow oh that's throughout the entire home that's

[01:19:08] interesting and the people were all do you remember shooting in that donut factory donut

[01:19:13] factory you think i would remember that shot in a donut factory i remember the the the bread

[01:19:20] it's 30 years ago for me too here's what i remember this is the peculiarities of of of

[01:19:27] and the i mean the wonderful eccentricities of of of balthamoreans um we were in this play

[01:19:35] in this donut factory and we andrew and i went and walked into the office where we were told this

[01:19:40] is where you guys will because we didn't have our trailers with us this is your green room

[01:19:44] just go hang out in this office the guy who owns this donut factory

[01:19:48] and we're sitting in there and talking and periodically i'd look up at the walls and

[01:19:53] andrew and i'd keep talking then i kept looking up at the walls

[01:19:56] and all of the photos on the walls were of people from behind yeah they had all been taken of people

[01:20:03] from behind their backs it wasn't of it wasn't of any one body part or anything it was just

[01:20:09] people of people from behind and so we're andrew and i then were getting up and we're walking through

[01:20:16] this donut factory to go shoot something and i hear something behind me and there's the owner

[01:20:23] taking photos of us from behind oh i would while we're walking away which meant something

[01:20:32] which meant something deeply to him as did these other places that we would go to there were

[01:20:38] people had they put great meaning into things and then packed that into their homes

[01:20:44] in a lot of places we went into i don't know if you remember that yeah i would i would say quirky

[01:20:48] and eccentric i would say yeah eccentric is a good john waters captured it a good description

[01:20:55] i loved baltimore for that true uh jeff who was our um one of the prop guys yeah jeff gordon

[01:21:02] yeah jeff went through his potato period so so and i would we would go over and hang out

[01:21:10] over at his place in his potato period which is this a perfect kind of baltimorean kind of thing

[01:21:18] was he had potatoes in different levels of like a potato he had just bought at the market last

[01:21:24] week a potato that had been around for a year a potato had been around for five years

[01:21:28] that was one kind of were there also some that looked like something or there are also some that

[01:21:34] looked like like potatoes that looked like something sure carved out potatoes but he also had a huge

[01:21:42] thing of a potato tornado he figured out a way to put potatoes on something and create a tornado

[01:21:50] that took up a pretty good part of his loft that he was in and incredibly artistic we shot at

[01:21:57] least one episode it seems to me in his loft in his yeah yeah do you remember all the episode we shot

[01:22:04] with the the the paintings from all of the serial killers they gathered or they collected all these

[01:22:10] paintings of serial killers and i took um the woman that i was kind of having sex in the coffin

[01:22:17] with kind of kind of having sex in the coffin with and we went to this exhibit

[01:22:25] of these serial killer portraits and jeff actually owned a couple of them from the guy who was who

[01:22:33] was the guy who dressed up who did the clown he dressed up as a clown the one that silenced

[01:22:38] the lambs is oh john wane gacy yeah is the clown so he had also these are genuine paintings they

[01:22:44] weren't prop paintings these were genuine actual serial killer yeah yeah yeah and jeff had like one

[01:22:50] or two of these things and so there was just a certain way of looking at life and and art that was

[01:22:59] i thought just incredibly specific for baltimore yeah really cool yeah absolutely yeah i would

[01:23:06] agree i would agree with that well um one of another thing baltimore's famous for uh season

[01:23:12] for his nose where i'm going with this one now crab he's famous for its food well yeah yeah and

[01:23:17] and so apparently the the camera crew are living off fried gizzards no not the camera crew the

[01:23:23] grippy electric crew we would just sample them we would they would they were similar

[01:23:28] oh god and the writers are on scrapple scrapple yeah what were you guys surviving off um

[01:23:36] uh gosh what we were we were surviving off of i mean it's it's the first place i'd ever had

[01:23:42] crab cakes before and also was it is it bluefin crab blue crabs yeah blue crabs blue crabs

[01:23:49] is the one is the one that we steamed and we you could get them from under the wharf

[01:23:54] right you could get you could actually get them from under the wharf you could go um

[01:23:59] and um i mean there were a bunch of wonderful and not so wonderful bars and pubs around the

[01:24:06] area that serve food so that's where we got our food at and then um yeah so that's what we kind of

[01:24:14] you know we we dipped in a little bit into the the uh the foods that were you know

[01:24:19] indigenous to that area but crab cakes were that was yeah they're the best favorite of mine

[01:24:24] it's good yeah but you couldn't you couldn't live off of them no you could something awful

[01:24:31] might happen to you at some point but well that's when you switch to scrapple you go from the crab

[01:24:36] case and scrapple scrapple i love that scrapple and gizzard sorry i didn't i didn't mean to shut

[01:24:41] you down chris the the fried the fried gizzard story is that when we went into certain neighborhoods

[01:24:47] that had well a lot of neighborhoods had these little convenience store slash um liquor store

[01:24:54] slash food things and josh or joe or somebody from the grip or electric crew would go over

[01:25:00] and they'd come out with a a bag a brown paper bag that would immediately be like translucent from

[01:25:08] the grease in it and they would get a bag of fried gizzards and livers did they say livers gizzards

[01:25:14] gizzards and livers yeah and um i remember the first time they're like hey you want to try one i was

[01:25:19] like and i tried one and they were absolutely delicious so then it was like this big treat

[01:25:25] like are you are you guys going and getting gizzards yes bring them over here they were uh

[01:25:31] yeah that that was uh that was a revelation for me they were good i have a can i tell you a couple

[01:25:40] of tiny stories please yeah yeah yeah so uh my wife and i we weren't married at the time and

[01:25:50] but we went to india and we went to uh this area in india called laddock india which is sort of

[01:25:56] the little to bet of of india so this is where the dalai lama has a summer home and they a lot of

[01:26:03] monasteries buddhist monasteries up there and um and i had been in this this ancient monastery room

[01:26:13] for probably 45 minutes with this monk whose total job is to clean those rooms and they're very

[01:26:23] old so you can't do flashlights or put because everything will crumble or something so he

[01:26:29] does this thing and you meditate in there while he's cleaning and i come out of the room into the

[01:26:37] you know the bright light and someone goes oh murder murder red to black and they i said what

[01:26:48] but before that oh gosh i'm telling this wrong they said they said do we know you

[01:26:52] know i don't think so uh are you from israel i said no i'm not from israel australia no

[01:27:00] and they were israeli and they said oh murder red to black and that's what homicide is called

[01:27:08] in israel murder red to black because of the board the yeah and even in a dinky little place in

[01:27:17] india it was amazing and we weren't like a huge you know like seinfeld or anything like that we were

[01:27:24] just that but the people that were they they show up everywhere and the other story i want to tell in

[01:27:31] terms of food is that there was a there was a little breakfast place jimmy's that was around

[01:27:38] the corner yeah it was around the corner to the left if you were looking out you went around

[01:27:43] we shot in there jimmy's yep we would we would go there a lot and eat food from there and also they

[01:27:48] would bring food in for like breakfast and stuff from there yeah that's where the scrap that's where

[01:27:55] the writers ate scrapple over there scrapple that's where they got their scrapple a big big place yeah

[01:28:01] yeah making me hungry me too well um food is one thing we haven't covered it she's if there

[01:28:08] was a typical day what was a day on set like on homicide you know what was the sort of the routine

[01:28:13] for you on that show if there was one it was showing up hanging out in our incredible uh

[01:28:19] hair and makeup trailer with pickles and the and the rest of the uh and the rest of them that

[01:28:25] was it was a great way to start your day was to go in there and to touch touch base with

[01:28:31] all of them um and we didn't and we didn't get much makeup or hair done we were a pretty like

[01:28:38] none of the actors wanted to be touched up they didn't want to have anything on them so

[01:28:43] it was pretty quick but we basically hung out in there because the the people in there were so

[01:28:47] exquisite um and uh and then we would if we were on location it was one thing if we were at the

[01:28:57] you know at the um other set uh we had trailers um and and we were you basically

[01:29:04] were either there or you were up on set hanging out on set and there were a lot of different

[01:29:09] rooms in this um on the on that wharf and uh uh and you would just hang out and talk or play

[01:29:19] um chess or checkers or you know it was it was a pretty uh chill chill kind of way and then you

[01:29:29] would get up and work and um and you there was a lot of laughter and and then there were days

[01:29:38] when there wasn't a lot of laughter and it was a lot of tension good god look at you laugh you

[01:29:44] laugh Susan you laugh you know about this the homicide tension yeah i remember um i remember

[01:29:50] the laughter more than the tension but maybe that's because you tend to remember some pretty funny people

[01:29:55] on that set yeah let's remember it it was it it was um like you said earlier a very family feel

[01:30:03] well first of all because we all work together six or seven years well not everybody was on it that

[01:30:07] long but you know and then everybody would go across the street to the waterfront until we got

[01:30:12] kicked out of the waterfront and then everybody would go across the street to coopers or you would

[01:30:16] go down the corner to john john wasn't john brown john i can't remember but also that neighborhood

[01:30:24] was so beautiful or also another thing is we had pretty epic games of hacky sack hacky sack yes

[01:30:31] and i i remember was i read rodney yeah rodney french i remember uh something i read recently

[01:30:38] about melissa bringing in bringing in a hacky sack too and i don't know if it was because yeah she

[01:30:44] loved hacky sack yeah i don't know if it was because she made a comment that nobody would throw her

[01:30:48] the football or something so she brought the hacky sack in but yeah hacky sack became a thing on

[01:30:53] the set too yeah yeah i do remember that those are pretty epic games i mean we would have

[01:30:59] most of the i don't even know who was shooting there was no i mean we had most of the crew

[01:31:04] playing hacky sack and like really intense intense hacky sack sessions and then someone would have to

[01:31:12] say can we get some help over here and you'd have to go what ah we're at work where did those games

[01:31:19] take place were they like on the rooftop or something or was it just anywhere you were

[01:31:24] anywhere we were i mean i remember they would be out on fell street sometimes in the middle of

[01:31:28] the street because we would have it locked down um it would be it could be inside it could be anywhere

[01:31:34] i mean and you'd have it wasn't and sometimes it just be two or three people playing but sometimes

[01:31:38] you would have like eight you know 20 people i never did that i just watched you know yeah i was

[01:31:43] i was too busy working you didn't keep oh yeah that's right you're one of the workers i was

[01:31:50] sort of thought about it when you were talking about you know somebody on the other side of the

[01:31:53] world recognizing you and in the show but it it still has retained its fans for a long time

[01:32:03] what do you think makes it still you know why do you think it's retained its fans and also

[01:32:09] why is it still i guess we talked about this earlier why it still feels pertinent

[01:32:15] today and current but maybe we already mentioned that i don't know

[01:32:20] no you didn't i wrote down a great answer to that okay read it i wrote down a really good answer

[01:32:28] that because i thought it was such a good question i don't know i'm not even gonna read i'm gonna

[01:32:34] so why why have we retained these fans um because they're they're stubborn they're stubborn

[01:32:41] they won't move homicide away from number one in their brains in terms of those kinds of

[01:32:46] you know procedural detective shows um i think uh you know what i just think that it

[01:32:55] there's some incredible television right now i mean there's stuff that that that means a lot to me

[01:33:03] but i can truly say that in 10 years five years i won't be thinking about it it won't be something

[01:33:11] that um i'm gonna refer to i think homicide if you factor in the production the way it was shot how

[01:33:25] it was presented the music the acting the writing that insightful writing that they did um that

[01:33:35] somehow made made people that i know feel like it had something to do with their lives even if they

[01:33:42] had never lost someone if they had never to you know being murdered anything they hadn't been those

[01:33:47] but something it just it's it felt like something it was a part of their lives and i don't know how

[01:33:55] that happens how but it seems like it's a bunch of factors being thrown in together

[01:34:01] you know it could have been the time the decade that it it was happening in

[01:34:08] you know through what was happening at that time politically in the world and what was happening

[01:34:12] in the united states and um you know and then it was in baltimore there was something also

[01:34:18] just about baltimore you know the character the character of that particular town and i mean

[01:34:25] you know i know they wanted to shoot it elsewhere but there's nothing like baltimore

[01:34:31] and uh i think it felt like people it was it was even though that we had you know quite a few fans

[01:34:38] it felt like in a way they were part of a secret thing we're we're the ones looking into this

[01:34:44] world if you'd not look if you haven't looked into that world you haven't seen what we've seen

[01:34:48] but we've seen it and that's and it in and that retain that specialness and i think

[01:34:56] i don't know i don't know why it i again one of those things i can't even put my finger on yeah i

[01:35:02] think that it struck me when i why i think i rewatched all the episodes you know over the

[01:35:08] past months as we've been working on this and um it struck me and it wasn't just because

[01:35:13] i worked on the show because sometimes to be honest like you were saying earlier kyle

[01:35:17] i'll watch an episode and have no memory and think that i didn't work on the episode and then

[01:35:24] my name would be in the credits so like okay i guess i worked on that but um but also struck me that

[01:35:32] it was it really connected with people's emotions i think um all that people could relate to it

[01:35:39] but also like there are moments where you literally burst out laughing it's so funny and

[01:35:44] so cleverly written and then fighting back tears by the time you know it goes to black you know

[01:35:53] on that last that last the last scene at the end um really was able to to ride to ride those

[01:36:01] emotional arcs and really communicated i think um in a way that felt real it didn't feel like

[01:36:08] people were acting or pushing a theme at you or preaching to you it just felt like you were feeling

[01:36:16] what life feels like and um it it's still connects i think it really still connects that way

[01:36:26] yeah yeah i mean when you when you mentioned that last the image from the you know of

[01:36:33] i think is it where they do all the flashbacks of like they connect together from when i first entered

[01:36:44] the homicide the the montage at the yeah yeah at the end at the end of the series which

[01:36:51] shocked me when i saw that i had no idea that that's what was gonna be there and i was in tears

[01:36:59] at the end of that as well i because they did a great thing they followed someone

[01:37:06] for my character they followed someone who you know was an innocent and you know and and and

[01:37:12] that's all of our journeys starting out innocent to going through these different phases or

[01:37:18] andres character whatever they they brilliantly wove together all of this stuff in a way that

[01:37:25] didn't feel false it felt right that that you're right that montage gave you the arc of the whole

[01:37:34] seven seasons but also one thing they did and they did this not knowing they did that tom said and

[01:37:40] chris i think you know tell me if you remember this too they did that not knowing that it was

[01:37:46] going to be the last episode they still did not know if they were going to be picked up or not

[01:37:51] but it ended up being the last episode but also when they tied in the last scene of that last episode

[01:37:59] has the same dialogue in an alley with meldrick and at the at the end it's with meldrick and

[01:38:07] michael michelle's character and but it echoed the same dialogue that was the first scene

[01:38:14] with meldrick and chris eddie um so they really man they pulled that cycle this the once again the arc

[01:38:23] overused overusing that today um in that last episode absolutely beautifully but i think i

[01:38:30] remember tom saying they did not know that was going to be the last episode

[01:38:36] yeah very interesting you know something that occurs to me because you're talking about clark

[01:38:42] and his character and um what a joy he was to work with and to have on the set oh my gosh

[01:38:51] and and he's someone that i've stayed in contact with for all of these all these years you know

[01:38:56] clark was like clark was always interesting to me because clark always had this thing where he'd

[01:39:00] say i can't remember my lines or you know i you know he's he was always like wasn't getting

[01:39:06] anything right but on our show all of it worked oh it was beautiful if you because they the the

[01:39:16] it was all accepted though your strengths your weaknesses as actors it was all in there and

[01:39:22] the and the and the writers had their ears tuned into where you were at in your life

[01:39:28] in that particular year what were the themes in your life did they did they

[01:39:33] figure into the homicide world in some way shape or form even a character thing of that

[01:39:40] might be a part of you they were so good about that stuff and um and i think maybe that's you

[01:39:46] know that's another thing where there wasn't a lot of false moves because yeah that was included

[01:39:52] yeah he was you know he started off his career as a camera assistant yes i'm well aware of that

[01:39:59] and he said he was such a lousy camera assistant he said he was such a lousy camera assistant he

[01:40:05] became an actor or or wasn't the story not that he was a lousy camera assistant but that he looked

[01:40:11] at how hard he was working and how hard the actors weren't working and that's what he decided he

[01:40:17] was going to be the actor i think maybe that was a story yeah i'm going to do that remember

[01:40:22] yeah he was yeah he was great great i love i'd love in the episode you directed where he has

[01:40:28] thing with andrew prawn they talk about he's talking about the word love spelt backwards evil

[01:40:37] oh my god it is so funny oh that's so funny and he said no oh i he said live spelled backwards

[01:40:45] and he's like give me some poetic license right it's so good so do you want to talk about your book

[01:40:55] you know first of all the the book is has no

[01:40:59] homicide references in it there's no real i know why would you read it then

[01:41:06] there's no but after this this thing i've been thinking there might be a book about homicide

[01:41:11] that i can write the inside scoop it'd be great the blue version we'll do a tie in advertising tie

[01:41:18] it'll be great there you go but uh and there's no real too many entertainment business stories or

[01:41:26] anything like that it really is just sort of the where i was at a certain point right after the

[01:41:34] pandemic and i've been thinking about acting for years and i would write down notes about acting

[01:41:40] why do we do this what is acting why is it you know a lot of people don't never have to think

[01:41:45] of this stuff ever again me i thought about it all my life so i started looking at that stuff and i

[01:41:53] started writing it down in more of an orderly thing and i went oh well maybe this is a book

[01:41:57] and so i it just kind of stumbled into being a book about my thoughts on

[01:42:03] acting and um you know acting there's a acting without the actor so in a way it's like

[01:42:10] writing without the writer so it's in a way it's you could say it's the ego or whatever

[01:42:16] out of the way what happens when it's just pure this and that other stuff that is

[01:42:21] how do i get a job i need to oh my god that audition and all the you know i want to be famous

[01:42:26] all that is out and it's just this and it's kind of musing upon that so that's what the book

[01:42:32] is about you won't get anything out of it right i'm almost certain of it the zen the zen of

[01:42:38] a little bit yeah do you want to talk about do you want to talk about anything you're working on

[01:42:43] now or have coming up people um you know i mean really the last really wonderful film project

[01:42:49] i did was um a thing called the starling girl which came out um this last year and it was at

[01:42:57] Sundance and then it won a bunch of awards some different festivals now you can watch it i think

[01:43:01] it's on amazon and uh it's a beautiful beautiful film and i was really fortunate to be in it and

[01:43:10] you know doing some little things here and there still looking to get work but i've been

[01:43:15] you know writing and directing some theater and um yeah that's that's sort of what i do yeah

[01:43:22] oh that's terrific well maybe well maybe well and being very optimistic maybe we can round

[01:43:27] some people up and do a uh you know have a have a reunion and tie the podcast in with it and you

[01:43:34] know just invite some people to come back to town because you have you been to baltimore since they

[01:43:38] turned the uh the pier into the pendry hotel the pier where we shot homicide is now a luxury

[01:43:47] super super high-end hotel stay there now it has a oh wow in the in the area that was filled with

[01:43:55] exactly in the area that was the garage is a restaurant and bar and if you go past that there's

[01:44:01] a patio that goes out to a pool area that that looks right out over the harbor and then the two um

[01:44:08] pier sides they built out into the hotel rooms but the upstairs has been um renovated back to

[01:44:19] its initial purpose was it was the initial ballroom initially a ballroom do you remember

[01:44:24] the big beautiful arch windows that were beyond our sets and some of the windows were in the

[01:44:29] the coffee room absolutely stunningly beautiful upstairs is just absolutely stunningly beautiful

[01:44:35] restored to its initial purpose which which was as a big you know community slash ballroom but

[01:44:42] now is like you know you could rent it for for weddings and events and things and then it

[01:44:47] became like a like a police lee police um uh like gymnasium that was what it was before yeah it was a

[01:44:56] rec pier it was it was used as a rec pier right and then it was closed for many years i think before

[01:45:01] we the sets were built in it but and then it sat there for i would think a decade or two before

[01:45:08] it was it's now this amazingly beautiful restoration of the building and it's very odd

[01:45:14] when you go in and try to like you could go you could still go up that famous stairway

[01:45:20] but i don't know if you remember on the other or you would remember because we shot in there the

[01:45:24] other side the the um the ramp that went up we would have to push our equipment up but we also

[01:45:29] shot in there that the ramp is gone i guess that became i don't know elevators or stairs on

[01:45:36] that side i don't remember but it's apps it's really beautiful so maybe try to talk my way into

[01:45:41] having a reunion there and have them not charge us an arm and a leg we're just gonna go hang out at the

[01:45:47] bar really yeah yeah that would be really fun maybe we'll keep in touch this has just been

[01:45:55] i will and if you get clark on the show if you get clark on the on here ask him about um

[01:46:03] the elevator incident

[01:46:04] oh and okay and do you want to tell us about that so we can hear your version and then the version

[01:46:13] well but i mean i would be interested in what actually happened um but the second day second

[01:46:19] or third day we were in baltimore uh and we were at that hotel that we were staying at

[01:46:25] we were waiting for clark we were all gonna go out to watch a sports event or something

[01:46:31] like that a game on tv or something someplace and he was like 15 20 minutes late and we were just

[01:46:37] like waiting going where is no one knew him so we were like you know calling him all sorts of names

[01:46:43] and we started hearing sounds and i started walking down the hallway and period then i was

[01:46:50] hearing help help and i get to where the help is coming from and it's the elevator and he's

[01:46:59] stuck in and in the elevator between floors and he'd been in there for like 20 minutes or so so

[01:47:05] ask him about that what was going on that was my first introduction to him at homicide and then

[01:47:12] also years later if you recall he got a boat he had a boat while he was there which was a

[01:47:19] maybe it was a very small sailboat or something and he took it out before he was going to be

[01:47:24] shooting and he got stuck the sail broke or something and he couldn't get a hold of anyone

[01:47:30] so no one could get a hold of clark and he had to figure out how to get the boat in with the sail

[01:47:36] being you know busted or whatever it was so ask him about that he'll he'll have great stories

[01:47:43] oh bro it was such a pleasure talking to you both this has really been wonderful thank you

[01:47:48] for joining us carl has been great thank you well it was a real pleasure so that was carl

[01:48:12] seacore and susan i don't know what you thought about it interview but i i thought it was some

[01:48:16] very interesting bits there is there anything that stood out for you yeah this has been really

[01:48:20] interesting because so many times um either the writers or genre or the actors say something i

[01:48:26] didn't know um kyle went fairly in into depth about the adjustment um between of the styles

[01:48:33] and the way it was shot between the first and second seasons i didn't work on the first season so

[01:48:38] i didn't see that dynamic playing out you know between you know the camera and the actors or

[01:48:45] you know anything he went in fairly deep detail about how he thought things were modified

[01:48:53] after the first season so i thought that was interesting i also like everyone he was so thoughtful

[01:49:01] you know the the deep sort of interior reactions and emotional responses and and career influences

[01:49:11] that people talk about this show had for them it was really interesting and and also the

[01:49:18] the nice the the interesting to hear the relationship between him and andre yeah yeah

[01:49:24] that was very good there was one story that stood out for me was um when he was talking about when

[01:49:29] he was filming the episode with adina watson and tom pelagrini who was the real detective who

[01:49:34] investigated the real equivalent murder and tom was the model initially for the bales character and

[01:49:41] there he was in between takes keeping the actress playing adina watson dry from all the the fake

[01:49:47] rain car saw that and just saw it as a way for tom to be able to sort of make a difference

[01:49:52] now in a way that he couldn't back then i found that very powerful and and it didn't surprise us we

[01:49:58] got to know as i got to know car as you're saying he's a very thoughtful and observant guy and and

[01:50:04] for him to have noticed that and read it that way it just sort of um i could see why he was

[01:50:08] bales you know it was it was a really great story yeah and he talked about and i don't remember

[01:50:15] if read i think read might have mentioned this too the idea that the writers

[01:50:19] mind mi i m i n e d mind the the issues or the personality things or the interests of the actors

[01:50:31] and incorporated some of those into their personalities in the character um which

[01:50:36] kyle mentioned um which i thought was interesting the whole idea you know we we joke with him

[01:50:41] about being the zen detective yes and some of that was from his like you said this sort of

[01:50:46] thoughtful internal internal um dialogue i guess he was having a lot yeah i also liked one of the

[01:50:54] quotes i wrote down was there's nothing like baltimore it's a secret thing you know as if you

[01:51:00] don't know it until you're here until you experience it till you live it you know people have a lot of

[01:51:04] negative impressions of baltimore and baltimore has a lot of really good people and a lot of

[01:51:11] really good things and good things to say yeah and a very eccentric city too by the sounds of

[01:51:16] things it's like there was some very fun locations and i quite enjoyed the uh oh was it a bakery or

[01:51:23] a donut place where the the proprietor he talked about a donut factory and i'm thinking if i would

[01:51:28] have remembered anything it would have been a donut factory but so i have to go i don't even

[01:51:35] remember what did he mention what i have to go back and see he didn't say which episode it was no

[01:51:40] but i found that story quite funny with the guy photographs the backs of people

[01:51:46] it's i don't know whether that's like um you know is this a donut place is it like uh filling in for

[01:51:52] the missing holes i don't know i don't know there's something there psychologically maybe well it's

[01:51:57] like you know diane arbis you know there's the some photographers or or have a focus and you know

[01:52:04] well i guess all photographers do have focus but well you hope they have focus on something that

[01:52:10] speaks to them yeah that was interesting i love the fact that he said where's the green room is that

[01:52:15] kermi little office like you're not going to your trailer guess what because we didn't bring

[01:52:20] them you know it makes me feel better as when doing low budget films there's nothing more

[01:52:25] embarrassing when you're late oh no the poor actor's gonna have to sit in this room for like three

[01:52:28] hours while we set things up they're doing that on homicide it's good enough for me yeah

[01:52:34] that's great that was great and there was a funny story about him being recognized in india by i think

[01:52:40] it was an israeli couple yes he's also like retreated india and suddenly oh you're from homicide

[01:52:46] the boy so they said murder because it was called something else murder red oh yeah it's

[01:52:50] called from red to black or black to red or whichever way around that goes now is it from

[01:52:54] red to black yeah the case is red and then it goes black when it's solved that's right i think

[01:52:58] it's interesting to see the interpretation of what um of what it's called in all the different

[01:53:04] places it was translated where it ended up yeah yeah i think that's carl seacour wrapped up was

[01:53:10] now it was a really great episode yep keep listening everybody hopefully they'll start streaming

[01:53:14] it soon yes thank you very much for listening everybody and please follow and connect with us

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[01:53:36] more on social media and we will catch you on the next episode thank you for listening take care